New Navy Ships Have Trouble Surviving the High Seas

[Ichingcarpenter]

Source: .bloomberg


The U.S. Navy is spending millions of dollars to repair new high-speed transport ships built by Austal Ltd. because their weak bows can’t stand buffeting from high seas, according to the Pentagon’s chief weapons tester.

“The entire ship class requires reinforcing structure” to bridge the twin hulls of the all-aluminum catamarans because of a design change that the Navy adopted at Austal’s recommendation for the $2.1 billion fleet of Expeditionary Fast Transports, Michael Gilmore, the Defense Department’s director of operational test and evaluation, said in a report to Congress.

The Navy bought 10 of the shallow-draft vessels, at about $217 million each. Five have been delivered and are in operation, while the other five are under construction at Austal’s Mobile, Alabama, shipyard. Senator Richard Shelby, Republican of Alabama, is a member of the Senate Appropriations Committee, which added $225 million for an 11th vessel to the fiscal 2016 defense spending bill last month.

So far, the Navy has spent almost $2.4 million strengthening the bow of the first four vessels delivered since late 2012.

Read more: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-14/navy-s-fast-sealift-ships-can-t-stand-buffeting-from-high-seas

[Journeyman]

1. If the vendor suggested a change, why is the client paying to rectify an obvious mistake? . . .

A vendor mistake initiated after production began under the approved quote.

It seems responsibility lies with Austal Ltd, and the million$ to correct it should come from their profit.

[Mika]

2. No bid deal. Cost plus contracting. What could go wrong? eom

[LongTomH]

10. Cost plus contracting has distorted our entire economy for the worse

The whole idea of cost plus pricing originated during World War II. FDR needed to meet goals for military materiel production, so military contractors were guaranteed that the government would meet their costs of R&D, gearing up for production, and production, and they would get a given percentage, based on their total cost, as profit.

So, a contractor really can't lose:

• Cost overrun, we'll meet your cost, and your profit will be higher,
  
• your widget, won't work, your planes can't shoot their cannon, your ships can't handle high seas, no worries. We'll pay you to fix them,
  
• competition? Fuggedabout it!!!!! Once your lobbyists have gotten your contract, you're no longer competing.

Since production for military use is sooo much more lucrative than civilian...........

• US spending on the military is still higher than the height of the Cold War (You wondered why?????),
  
• We now have one US company producing civil airliners - Boeing. In the 60s, we still had four,
  
• All of the smaller, short to medium haul, airliners under 100 seats are produced in other countries.

Oh, and that's why old, reliable, proven, cost-effective aircraft like the A-10 are being replaced with a near-trillion dollar white elephant like the F-35!!!!

[Ichingcarpenter]

3. Generator Reliability

The vessel’s latest sea tests also were marred by the poor reliability of generators made by Fincantieri SpA that supply electrical power, according to Gilmore. The generators failed “at a much greater rate than predicted.”
Required to operate 8,369 hours between major failures, the generators failed as soon as 208 hours at some points, improving to 1,563 hours in the most recent tests.

Fincantieri spokesman Antonio Autorino said in an e-mail that “the concerns described in the report have been resolved and this information was provided to the Navy, yet was not included in the report.”

What a racket........

[BlueJazz]

20. "the generators failed as soon as 208 hours" I think they need to change vendors. ?

[Hoppy]

32. Was the contractor, Acme Flotilla Corporation?

[BlueJazz]

36. !

[Lochloosa]

12. Two key words. "Navy Adopted". In other words they accepted the changes.

[valerief]

15. You're forgetting that war is a racket. Racketeers racket. Suck that U.S. Treasury dry. nt

[EdwardBernays]

4. This doesn't sound right

How could the free market make a mistake??

[lumberjack_jeff]

5. When ships are thought of as "weapons platforms"

Seaworthiness is bound to suffer.

[ProfessorGAC]

38. That's Not Fair Jeff

Who would have expected a Navy ship to have to be on the high seas, anyway? They could have thought of them as boats first. But, that doesn't mean they thought they needed to be on the high seas!

It's just a ocean going naval vessel.

I can see why you would be confused! LOL!

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. "I want a tank... a big-ass tank. And make it float." Yessir Admiral.

[GeorgeGist]

6. Can you spell ...

white elephant?

[Roy Rolling]

7. No problemo

Nothing a few million poor kids giving up their meals can't fix.

[KamaAina]

8. Maybe they could use them as aircraft carriers for the F-35

[KansDem]

17. Now that's perceptive!

Kind of like a "McHale's MisNavy?"

[yuiyoshida]

25. Wow, that was my exact thought

[turbinetree]

9. How about this other White Elephant and its called.....................................

http://newsvader.com/id/15111792071

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10026531378

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/03/f35-jet-fighter-safety-problems

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/162181/the-carrier-omnishambles-and-the-fubar-plane.html

And the big one is "Wing Drop"


And then they wonder why taxpayers from every where on the planet are mad about there defense spending-----------because violence spreads to more violence --------------amazing




Honk-----------------for a political revolution Bernie 2016

[MynameisBlarney]

11. Are these the same ships that were corroding

at an extremely fast rate while in port?

[gregcrawford]

34. Aluminum hulls in salt water...

... do not survive long due to electrolytic reaction. A sacrificial pod of zinc is used on metal-hulled yachts so the seawater attacks that instead of the hull itself. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if these yahoos said, "We don' need no stinkin' zinc!"

Idiots.

[MynameisBlarney]

37. Of course, I'm in the marine diesel engine industry.

I'm sure they had zincs everywhere, but my question is did they bond it properly?

[PeoViejo]

39. Magnesium required as Sacrificial Metal on Aluminum craft. n/t

[gregcrawford]

40. Ah, that's right. Thanks for the correction.

It's been a few decades since I spent time in a boat yard.

[PeoViejo]

41. No Problem.

[neohippie]

44. isn't magnesium highly flamable

Just curious but isn't magnesium highly flammable? And when it burns in water doesn't that make it worse?

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/33167/why-does-burning-magnesium-explode-when-sprinkled-with-water

[PeoViejo]

46. No problem

they're almost always below the Waterline.

[jmowreader]

48. If it's finely divided, it is

Large pieces of magnesium can be welded...very few people do it because the filler rod is $200 a pound, but anyone who can weld aluminum can weld magnesium.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Ala-damn-bama wouldn't survive without the MIC.

[liberal N proud]

14. And people are worried about that 1 guy that bought beer with his food stamps?

We should start exposing these things for what they are.

The military industrial complex is the one ripping off the US Taxpayer. Who are they married to in Congress?

[jtuck004]

22. lol, that $1.3 bill lottery last night wasn't the only game.

...
20,000 sugar farmers gained $1.7 billion in transfers last year. That means each sugar farmer effectively received $85,000 in other taxpayers’ money.
...
The program that supports the American sugar industry has many facets. Most infamous is a subsidy program in which the U.S. Department of Agriculture gives loans to sugar farmers and allows them to repay those loans with raw sugar if sugar prices fall below 20.9 cents per pound. This program functions as an effective mass purchase of sugar, which drives up prices for consumers and thus doubly subsidizes the industry. The USDA then sells this sugar at a steeply discounted price to ethanol producers. Last year the USDA spent $53.3 million on the program. Including the loans that could not be repaid, the government spent $171.5 million.
...

There are other programs as well. Like health insurance, but to make you sick.

Our food assistance, to hungry people, is about $70 bill a year.

While we are being told "Eat less sugar. Spend more on vegetables, avoid cancer, diabetes, rotten guts.

http://www.economics21.org/commentary/sugar-subsidies-are-bitter-deal-american-consumers

That should be an easy fix, compared to defense, eh?

[1Greensix]

50. Cuban refugees

It's because most of the sugar farmers were Cuban refugees and the Vote Republican. They couldn't make any money if they had to compete with the world sugar prices. That's why Hershey's among other US corporations have moved to Mexico to make they candy. Sugar is less than Half the price US consumers have to pay to keep these twenty thousand Cuban/American families voting Republican.

[JCMach1]

16. Having swam and been on the Persian Gulf in the Winter, I can't imagine what the NAVY

was thinking sending out those small boats...


SERIOUSLY!!!


I can be very, very rough.

[Bradical79]

18. That's rediculous

We seem to be spending more money for poorer results. Too many deals with political buddies I assume. We have a defense budget of over $600,000,000,000. Not sure that quality of our fighting force is any better than it was when the budget was closer to $300,000,000,000.

[jtuck004]

19. Oh? And, they need to sail the Oceans? That's not a problem, we'll just adjust these contracts. n/t

[forest444]

21. Our tax dollars at play

And they'll find something that beats the F-35 boondoggle, just you wait.

https://reason.com/blog/2014/01/03/biggest-defense-boondoggle-ever-f-35-fig

[Katashi_itto]

23. LoLolol...I rememeber going thru a Hurricane off Cuba. 90ft swells my boat the USS Whitney

we took a crack through five decks in the prow. Water everywhere.

[lark]

24. This just aggravates me so much.

Why didn't they make the mfg. repair these for free? The MIC is pure charity for the rich that comes out of the pockets of the poor and middle class.

[jonno99]

26. Someone was not following the design specs (using cheaper, thinner material?) is my guess...nt

[bullsnarfle]

27. Nothing new here...

anybody remember this crap?

[Tab]

28. Don't they test this shit out?

Holy keerist, it's a frickin' navy boat. It's supposed to get through most anything, except perhaps ice. But big waves? C'mon!

[leveymg]

29. 4 Chinook helos can transport about as many troops/cargo faster, but they don't nearly cost as much

And they don't belong to the Navy or have to stay in the water. That's why.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

30. If it costs $2.4M to fix four boats that cost $651M,

that seems like a minor adjustment, not anything to go nuts about.

[anigbrowl]

43. That's beside the point

If it had come in under budget and worked perfectly, the same people would complain (with some justification) about the increased potential for death and destruction. Discussions like these are not meant to achieve anything other than a venting of negative emotions.

In the real world, product design is iterative and there are trade-offs between the amount of R&D you do up front and the need for design adjustments once the product goes out in the field. This particular case sounds like a screwup but the reality is that almost nothing works properly in its first version. Of course, the economic factors are complicated by political and bureaucratic factors, such as Senators lobbying for the job to go to their state or elaborate procurement rules that may lead to a misallocation of risk.

I find it helpful to maintain a historical perspective. Many things whose reliability we now take for granted (eg the B-52 since we're talking about military stuff) also went through difficulties at the outset.

[Crowman1979]

31. As the late great Alan Rickman once said...

[Geronimoe]

33. You got to love how the Military contracts with

foreign businesses while Aermican workers stand in long lines for poverty wages.

[saidsimplesimon]

35. Ichingcarpenter, we are all in for a high roll on the seas

of climate change. As for the MIC greed, it knows no bounds. It gives true meaning to the saying "sold my soul to the company store".

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[Joe Chi Minh]

45. One look at it suggested that to me. But then, I'm no engineer.

[Taitertots]

47. Thank god we have corporations. The people who profited off this might have had to pay for it.

But people keep telling me corporations help us because... reasons.

[Kaleva]

49. The OHP class frigates developed cracks in the aluminum superstructure about midships

Here's a link to an earlier discussion about the Tico class cruisers suffering from cracks in the superstructure.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x9742139

[roody]

51. Somebody is drinking from this gravy train.

[Kennah]

52. That's a metric fuck ton of fun! n/t

[Recursion]

53. Aren't these the littoral ships, though? (nt)

[Kennah]

54. What's next? Planes that can't fly? n/t