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Eugene

(61,945 posts)
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:09 PM Jan 2016

U.S. Supreme Court rules against 'Wichita Massacre' brothers

Source: Reuters

The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday ruled against two brothers challenging their death sentences for a 2000 Kansas crime spree known as the "Wichita Massacre" that included execution-style murders of one woman and three men on a snowy soccer field.

On a 8-1 vote, the high court threw out a Kansas Supreme Court ruling from 2014 that had invalidated Jonathan and Reginald Carr’s death sentences.

The Kansas Supreme Court had faulted the trial judge's instructions to the jury, saying in part that the brothers should have been sentenced in separate proceedings rather than together. The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday threw out that ruling.

The Carr brothers were sentenced to death after being convicted of the crimes committed in December 2000 in Wichita.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-deathpenalty-idUSKCN0UY1WO



US | Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:07am EST
WASHINGTON | BY LAWRENCE HURLEY
25 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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U.S. Supreme Court rules against 'Wichita Massacre' brothers (Original Post) Eugene Jan 2016 OP
As horrific as these crimes were it sounds like... ButterflyBlood Jan 2016 #1
I read the Esquire article about this crime ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #2
I'd be willing to pull the switch! atreides1 Jan 2016 #5
Can you give us a link? or tell us which issue it was in? nt raccoon Jan 2016 #16
Somehow, I knew they'd be black, else SCOTUS would have spared them. valerief Jan 2016 #3
SCOTUS doesn't seem to spare many people of the death penalty, black or white. Calista241 Jan 2016 #6
Actually SCOTUS overturned a black guy's death sentence a little over a week ago. Nye Bevan Jan 2016 #22
Vacuum Uponthegears Jan 2016 #4
Concomitantly, we also create the artist, the writer and the humble. LanternWaste Jan 2016 #7
And with that Uponthegears Jan 2016 #8
+1 Gidney N Cloyd Jan 2016 #9
What's this "We created them" -shit? Blue_Tires Jan 2016 #10
It's not about fault Uponthegears Jan 2016 #11
I already know their backstory, I was living in KS at the time Blue_Tires Jan 2016 #12
Let me say Uponthegears Jan 2016 #14
You act as if you care about people as human beings but then you deny their moral agency. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #18
It is not that black and white Uponthegears Jan 2016 #19
There are millions in similar circumstances who not only refrain from rape and murder but also Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #21
Actually Uponthegears Jan 2016 #23
I'm pretty sure millions of people, even those who are poor, Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #24
Ironic Uponthegears Jan 2016 #25
So did Tim McVeigh deserve death The Second Stone Jan 2016 #13
these are two thugs who just need to be put into a woodchipper bluestateguy Jan 2016 #15
Here is the actual opinion: happyslug Jan 2016 #17
Message auto-removed Name removed Jan 2016 #20

ButterflyBlood

(12,644 posts)
1. As horrific as these crimes were it sounds like...
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:15 PM
Jan 2016

Just a technicality was being ruled on here. No real precedent about the death penalty and usually anti-capital punishment justices ruled against them.

I know little about the technicality so I'll just say I oppose the death penalty and thus these brothers should spend the rest of their lives in prison.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
2. I read the Esquire article about this crime
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 03:45 PM
Jan 2016

I suggest if you really want to remain opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances, you avoid ever reading that article. I don't know how anyone can walk away from it reading what those fucking cretins did and not at least say you won't shed a tear if they die.

atreides1

(16,093 posts)
5. I'd be willing to pull the switch!
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 05:00 PM
Jan 2016

I just read what they did...and in all honesty, I'd pull the switch myself...then go home and have a bowl of cereal!

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
4. Vacuum
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 04:45 PM
Jan 2016

Crimes like these never occur in a vacuum.

Their perpetrators are either brain damaged, or, more often, stripped of impulse control and empathy and taught on a very subliminal level by years of subjugation that power and dominance are the difference between victimhood and survival/success. We create them and then we pillory them as "all that is evil in the world."

Then we deny it.

So, I won't bother recounting the Carr's life stories, just to hear supposed liberals parrot the words of Antonin Scalia about who does or does not "deserve death." At the end, the argument about the death penalty will not be resolved by fighting over who is "deserving." Indeed, twenty-two years ago, in another 8-1 decision (that one denying cert.), it was a young girl gang raped, murdered, her underwear shoved down her throat that caused Justice Scalia to rail on about how a young, mentally disabled, black man, William Callins, should be grateful for the peaceful (a lie by the way) death of lethal injection in, dare I say, an opinion in which there is no doubt but that he would be joined by those here on DU who now can not look past the tragic end of a long journey on that cold Kansas day.

It will end when we can each say, "I will not kill."

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
7. Concomitantly, we also create the artist, the writer and the humble.
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 05:09 PM
Jan 2016

"We create them..."

Concomitantly, we also create the artist, the writer and the humble as well. The rational mind will not deny we are in part, collectively responsible for our social environment and its consequences; however that same rational mind must realize that more often than not, a conscious choice, regardless of whether that choice is malicious or generous, is made solely by the individual... something else we cannot deny.

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
8. And with that
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 06:20 PM
Jan 2016

You show the futility of such an argument.

The scientist and the ax-murderer are not different simply because of the choices they made. That is simply a refusal to admit that we all are born with different frailties and strengths and that those frailties are met by different traumas and nourishment. It is to give those of us who judge a sense of the kind of moral superiority, an entitlement to decide who should live. It doesn't exist.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
10. What's this "We created them" -shit?
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:13 PM
Jan 2016

Last edited Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Society isn't at fault here...You'd best keep the blame where it belongs, chief...

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
11. It's not about fault
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:47 PM
Jan 2016

It's about fact.

I am telling you why these over-the-top heinous crimes occur.

You want to talk about who should get the blame. Stated another way, you want to talk about who we should punish. Who can we stick on the gurney for this. Who can we torture? Who can we imprison long after they no longer pose any danger to society? You are looking for validation for revenge.

That's why these discussions are non-productive. That is why I didn't "bore you" with the details of these guys' lives. I didn't draw you a path from the moment of their birth to that soccer field. You don't care why it happened. You just care about who is going to pay.

That is why, as I said before, the debate about "who deserves to die" will never end capital punishment. It ends when those of us who are not murderers, who could never do what these men did, can say "we don't deserve to kill."

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
12. I already know their backstory, I was living in KS at the time
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:54 PM
Jan 2016

What is the role of justice, then?? So you don't want these two imprisoned? or you just don't want them executed??

Whether their deaths are from old age or state-sponsored, I care little either way as long as they never ever walk among society again...

And my earlier point still stands -- *WE* did not create those two fucking sociopaths, and to keep saying that we did only lessens the responsibility for their own actions... I'm not playing that game, since it can easily be molded to fit the background of any violent criminal...

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
14. Let me say
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:34 PM
Jan 2016

I agree that they don't belong out. Protection of the public is one of government's biggest obligations. Regardless of why, they are both dangerous and probably always will be. I wouldn't be willing to take the risk because clearly they are massively f'd up.

Same results, different path, I guess.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
18. You act as if you care about people as human beings but then you deny their moral agency.
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:58 AM
Jan 2016

If the perpetrators cannot be evil by their own design then neither can they be good.

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
19. It is not that black and white
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 11:29 AM
Jan 2016

Every day, human beings take actions, some beautiful and inspiring, other cruel and reprehensible. Into every one of those actions is poured their genetics, their experiences, their injuries, their gifts, and, yes, except in rare case, their choices.

When we presume to pass moral judgment on a person based upon their cruel and reprehensible actions (as opposed to deciding what is necessary to protect innocent people from future cruel and reprehensible actions), based solely upon the one factor they control (choice), we are saying that, despite the fact that but for all these factors together the crime would not have occurred, every person and every institution that contributed to those actions is free from blame, or, more accurately, they should all escape punishment.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
21. There are millions in similar circumstances who not only refrain from rape and murder but also
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 01:49 PM
Jan 2016

go on to become inspiring people. That is who these monsters are being judged against as the aberrations they are.

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
23. Actually
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:55 PM
Jan 2016

there are not. The fact of the matter is that those who overcome the combination of genetic and environmental deficiencies experienced by the kind of people who carry out these extreme kinds of crimes are fewer in number than those who go on to lives of anti-social conduct. That is why psychological professionals can, and do, take such factors into account when making diagnoses.

What you have done is to push a conclusion which you cannot prove through evidence and science (because it is untrue) by stating it as a fact and then suggesting that it remains so until the opposing side proves it is not true. It's a cute rhetorical flourish, but it proves nothing.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
24. I'm pretty sure millions of people, even those who are poor,
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jan 2016

are not genetically or environmentally predisposed to rape and murder. If it were the poor and those bearing certain genetic traits would be better treated as potentially dangerous animals, likes dogs that might turn without provocation.

I prefer to treat people as people but I guess I'm just naïve like that.

 

The Second Stone

(2,900 posts)
13. So did Tim McVeigh deserve death
Wed Jan 20, 2016, 09:19 PM
Jan 2016

so did Hitler. Doesn't mean I don't want to personally administer it. I just know right from wrong.

Lock them up forever (humanely) and throw away the key. Multiple wrongs do not make a right. The innocent victims can never be given justice because the only justice possible would be to go back in time and prevent the horrors. And that isn't possible. Permanent incarceration is the least evil response.

bluestateguy

(44,173 posts)
15. these are two thugs who just need to be put into a woodchipper
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 03:07 AM
Jan 2016

It was an 8-1 ruling, Kagan, Breyer and RBG voted to uphold the original death sentence.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
17. Here is the actual opinion:
Thu Jan 21, 2016, 10:29 AM
Jan 2016
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/15pdf/14-449_9o7d.pdf

The Kansas Supreme Court vacated the death penalties in both cases. It held that the instructions used in both Gleason’s and the Carrs’ sentencing violated the Eighth Amendment because they “failed to affirmatively inform the jury that mitigating circumstances need only be proved to the satisfaction of the individual juror in that juror’s sentencing decision and not beyond a reasonable doubt.” ......

The Kansas Supreme Court also held that the Carrs’ death sentences had to be vacated because of the trial court’s failure to sever their sentencing proceedings, thereby violating the brothers’ Eighth Amendment right “to an individualized capital sentencing determination.”......According to the court, the joint trial “inhibited the jury’s individualized consideration of [Jonathan] because of family characteristics tending to demonstrate future dangerousness that he shared with his brother”; and his brother’s visible handcuffs prejudiced the jury’s consideration of his sentence......As for Reginald, he was prejudiced, according to the Kansas Supreme Court, by Jonathan’s portrayal of him as the corrupting older brother....Moreover, Reginald was prejudiced by his brother’s cross-examination of their sister, who testified that she thought Reginald had admitted to her that he was the shooter. Id., at 279, 331 P. 3d, at 719. (She later backtracked and testified, “‘I don’t remember who was, you know, shot by who[m].’” Ibid.) The Kansas Supreme Court opined that the presumption that the jury followed its instructions to consider each defendant separately was “defeated by logic.” Id., at 280, 331 P. 3d, at 719. “[T]he defendants’ joint upbringing in the maelstrom that was their family and their influence on and interactions with one another . . . simply was not amenable to orderly separation and analysis.” ....

Before considering the merits of that contention, we consider Gleason’s challenge to our jurisdiction. According to Gleason, the Kansas Supreme Court’s decision rests on adequate and independent state-law grounds.....

The Kansas Supreme Court’s opinion leaves no room for doubt that it was relying on the Federal Constitution.....

In any event, our case law does not require capital sentencing courts “to affirmatively inform the jury that mitigating circumstances need not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.”.....

The alleged confusion stemming from the jury instructions used at the defendants’ sentencings does not clear that bar. A meager
“possibility” of confusion is not enough......

We reject the Kansas Supreme Court’s decision that jurors were “left to speculate as to the correct burden of proof for mitigating circumstances.”

The Kansas Supreme Court agreed with the defendants that, because of the joint sentencing proceeding, one defendant’s mitigating evidence put a thumb on death’s scale for the other, in violation of the other’s Eighth Amendment rights....

The mere admission of evidence that might not otherwise have been admitted in a severed proceeding does not demand the automatic vacatur of a death sentence.....

There is no reason to think the jury could not follow its instruction to consider the defendants separately in this case.....

It is improper to vacate a death sentence based on pure “speculation” of fundamental unfairness, “rather than reasoned judgment,” ....

The judgments of the Supreme Court of Kansas are reversed, and these cases are remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.


JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, dissented on the sole grounds that the decision of the Kansas Supreme Court had been based on STATE LAW not Federal law and as such the US Supreme Court had no jurisdiction to hear the case.

Response to Eugene (Original post)

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