U.S. Supreme Court rules against 'Wichita Massacre' brothers
Source: Reuters
The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday ruled against two brothers challenging their death sentences for a 2000 Kansas crime spree known as the "Wichita Massacre" that included execution-style murders of one woman and three men on a snowy soccer field.
On a 8-1 vote, the high court threw out a Kansas Supreme Court ruling from 2014 that had invalidated Jonathan and Reginald Carrs death sentences.
The Kansas Supreme Court had faulted the trial judge's instructions to the jury, saying in part that the brothers should have been sentenced in separate proceedings rather than together. The U.S. Supreme Court on Wednesday threw out that ruling.
The Carr brothers were sentenced to death after being convicted of the crimes committed in December 2000 in Wichita.
[font size=1]-snip-[/font]
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-court-deathpenalty-idUSKCN0UY1WO
US | Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:07am EST
WASHINGTON | BY LAWRENCE HURLEY
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Just a technicality was being ruled on here. No real precedent about the death penalty and usually anti-capital punishment justices ruled against them.
I know little about the technicality so I'll just say I oppose the death penalty and thus these brothers should spend the rest of their lives in prison.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I suggest if you really want to remain opposed to the death penalty in all circumstances, you avoid ever reading that article. I don't know how anyone can walk away from it reading what those fucking cretins did and not at least say you won't shed a tear if they die.
atreides1
(16,093 posts)I just read what they did...and in all honesty, I'd pull the switch myself...then go home and have a bowl of cereal!
raccoon
(31,119 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)Calista241
(5,586 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)Crimes like these never occur in a vacuum.
Their perpetrators are either brain damaged, or, more often, stripped of impulse control and empathy and taught on a very subliminal level by years of subjugation that power and dominance are the difference between victimhood and survival/success. We create them and then we pillory them as "all that is evil in the world."
Then we deny it.
So, I won't bother recounting the Carr's life stories, just to hear supposed liberals parrot the words of Antonin Scalia about who does or does not "deserve death." At the end, the argument about the death penalty will not be resolved by fighting over who is "deserving." Indeed, twenty-two years ago, in another 8-1 decision (that one denying cert.), it was a young girl gang raped, murdered, her underwear shoved down her throat that caused Justice Scalia to rail on about how a young, mentally disabled, black man, William Callins, should be grateful for the peaceful (a lie by the way) death of lethal injection in, dare I say, an opinion in which there is no doubt but that he would be joined by those here on DU who now can not look past the tragic end of a long journey on that cold Kansas day.
It will end when we can each say, "I will not kill."
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"We create them..."
Concomitantly, we also create the artist, the writer and the humble as well. The rational mind will not deny we are in part, collectively responsible for our social environment and its consequences; however that same rational mind must realize that more often than not, a conscious choice, regardless of whether that choice is malicious or generous, is made solely by the individual... something else we cannot deny.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)You show the futility of such an argument.
The scientist and the ax-murderer are not different simply because of the choices they made. That is simply a refusal to admit that we all are born with different frailties and strengths and that those frailties are met by different traumas and nourishment. It is to give those of us who judge a sense of the kind of moral superiority, an entitlement to decide who should live. It doesn't exist.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,847 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 20, 2016, 08:48 PM - Edit history (1)
Society isn't at fault here...You'd best keep the blame where it belongs, chief...
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)It's about fact.
I am telling you why these over-the-top heinous crimes occur.
You want to talk about who should get the blame. Stated another way, you want to talk about who we should punish. Who can we stick on the gurney for this. Who can we torture? Who can we imprison long after they no longer pose any danger to society? You are looking for validation for revenge.
That's why these discussions are non-productive. That is why I didn't "bore you" with the details of these guys' lives. I didn't draw you a path from the moment of their birth to that soccer field. You don't care why it happened. You just care about who is going to pay.
That is why, as I said before, the debate about "who deserves to die" will never end capital punishment. It ends when those of us who are not murderers, who could never do what these men did, can say "we don't deserve to kill."
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)What is the role of justice, then?? So you don't want these two imprisoned? or you just don't want them executed??
Whether their deaths are from old age or state-sponsored, I care little either way as long as they never ever walk among society again...
And my earlier point still stands -- *WE* did not create those two fucking sociopaths, and to keep saying that we did only lessens the responsibility for their own actions... I'm not playing that game, since it can easily be molded to fit the background of any violent criminal...
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)I agree that they don't belong out. Protection of the public is one of government's biggest obligations. Regardless of why, they are both dangerous and probably always will be. I wouldn't be willing to take the risk because clearly they are massively f'd up.
Same results, different path, I guess.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)If the perpetrators cannot be evil by their own design then neither can they be good.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)Every day, human beings take actions, some beautiful and inspiring, other cruel and reprehensible. Into every one of those actions is poured their genetics, their experiences, their injuries, their gifts, and, yes, except in rare case, their choices.
When we presume to pass moral judgment on a person based upon their cruel and reprehensible actions (as opposed to deciding what is necessary to protect innocent people from future cruel and reprehensible actions), based solely upon the one factor they control (choice), we are saying that, despite the fact that but for all these factors together the crime would not have occurred, every person and every institution that contributed to those actions is free from blame, or, more accurately, they should all escape punishment.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)go on to become inspiring people. That is who these monsters are being judged against as the aberrations they are.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)there are not. The fact of the matter is that those who overcome the combination of genetic and environmental deficiencies experienced by the kind of people who carry out these extreme kinds of crimes are fewer in number than those who go on to lives of anti-social conduct. That is why psychological professionals can, and do, take such factors into account when making diagnoses.
What you have done is to push a conclusion which you cannot prove through evidence and science (because it is untrue) by stating it as a fact and then suggesting that it remains so until the opposing side proves it is not true. It's a cute rhetorical flourish, but it proves nothing.
Nuclear Unicorn
(19,497 posts)are not genetically or environmentally predisposed to rape and murder. If it were the poor and those bearing certain genetic traits would be better treated as potentially dangerous animals, likes dogs that might turn without provocation.
I prefer to treat people as people but I guess I'm just naïve like that.
Uponthegears
(1,499 posts)That you invoke the uniqueness of the human experience in order to deny it.
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)so did Hitler. Doesn't mean I don't want to personally administer it. I just know right from wrong.
Lock them up forever (humanely) and throw away the key. Multiple wrongs do not make a right. The innocent victims can never be given justice because the only justice possible would be to go back in time and prevent the horrors. And that isn't possible. Permanent incarceration is the least evil response.
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)It was an 8-1 ruling, Kagan, Breyer and RBG voted to uphold the original death sentence.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The Kansas Supreme Court also held that the Carrs death sentences had to be vacated because of the trial courts failure to sever their sentencing proceedings, thereby violating the brothers Eighth Amendment right to an individualized capital sentencing determination.......According to the court, the joint trial inhibited the jurys individualized consideration of [Jonathan] because of family characteristics tending to demonstrate future dangerousness that he shared with his brother; and his brothers visible handcuffs prejudiced the jurys consideration of his sentence......As for Reginald, he was prejudiced, according to the Kansas Supreme Court, by Jonathans portrayal of him as the corrupting older brother....Moreover, Reginald was prejudiced by his brothers cross-examination of their sister, who testified that she thought Reginald had admitted to her that he was the shooter. Id., at 279, 331 P. 3d, at 719. (She later backtracked and testified, I dont remember who was, you know, shot by who[m]. Ibid.) The Kansas Supreme Court opined that the presumption that the jury followed its instructions to consider each defendant separately was defeated by logic. Id., at 280, 331 P. 3d, at 719. [T]he defendants joint upbringing in the maelstrom that was their family and their influence on and interactions with one another . . . simply was not amenable to orderly separation and analysis. ....
Before considering the merits of that contention, we consider Gleasons challenge to our jurisdiction. According to Gleason, the Kansas Supreme Courts decision rests on adequate and independent state-law grounds.....
The Kansas Supreme Courts opinion leaves no room for doubt that it was relying on the Federal Constitution.....
In any event, our case law does not require capital sentencing courts to affirmatively inform the jury that mitigating circumstances need not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt......
The alleged confusion stemming from the jury instructions used at the defendants sentencings does not clear that bar. A meager
possibility of confusion is not enough......
We reject the Kansas Supreme Courts decision that jurors were left to speculate as to the correct burden of proof for mitigating circumstances.
The Kansas Supreme Court agreed with the defendants that, because of the joint sentencing proceeding, one defendants mitigating evidence put a thumb on deaths scale for the other, in violation of the others Eighth Amendment rights....
The mere admission of evidence that might not otherwise have been admitted in a severed proceeding does not demand the automatic vacatur of a death sentence.....
There is no reason to think the jury could not follow its instruction to consider the defendants separately in this case.....
It is improper to vacate a death sentence based on pure speculation of fundamental unfairness, rather than reasoned judgment, ....
The judgments of the Supreme Court of Kansas are reversed, and these cases are remanded for further proceedings not inconsistent with this opinion.
JUSTICE SOTOMAYOR, dissented on the sole grounds that the decision of the Kansas Supreme Court had been based on STATE LAW not Federal law and as such the US Supreme Court had no jurisdiction to hear the case.
Response to Eugene (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed