13-Year-Old With Replica Gun Shot By Baltimore Police Officers

[NWCorona]

Source: CBS

BALTIMORE (WJZ) — A 13-year-old boy is shot by police in Southeast Baltimore.

It happened around 4 p.m. Wednesday at Baltimore and Aisquith streets, near the McKim Community Center.
The police commissioner says a young man was carrying what appeared to be a gun in his hand. It was actually a replica semi-automatic pistol.

When two officers approached the boy, he tried to flee on foot.
An officer then discharged his weapon, striking the young man.

The boy’s mother told police he left home with what she described as a BB gun in his hand.
The young man is expected to survive his injuries.

Read more: http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2016/04/27/city-police-investigating-officer-involved-shooting/

---

I played with BB and cap guns all the time when I was a kid. Can't do that anymore.

I hope he recovers

[flamin lib]

1. It's an arms race. Civilians have revolvers police want semi auto pistols.

Police get semi auto pistols civilians get assault rifles. Civilians get assault weapons police get full auto rifles, body armor and MRAPS.

Cops are over armed and scared shitless of the people they serve.

Neither side will back down.

[EX500rider]

2. "I played with BB and cap guns all the time when I was a kid."

Me too but none of them look as real as some they sell today.

This is a CO2 pistol:

[KamaAina]

3. Why the fsck are those legal?

Does the holy Second Amendment apply to fakes?

[cstanleytech]

8. CO2 guns are still guns so yes it still applies if however

you want that changed then I suggest you get started on getting an amendment passed that changes that.
Oh and no I am not a fan of these types of guns or any guns really but my like or dislike doesn't change the fact that currently the 2nd amendment exists.

[KamaAina]

9. Next question: Are 13-year-olds allowed to have them?

[cstanleytech]

12. Depends on the state but I

just did a simple Google search and found this http://pelletgunzone.com/air-gun-laws/

[Frank Cannon]

40. Of course. For the well-regulated playground militia.

Why would you even ask?

[KamaAina]

60. Thread win!

[sarisataka]

14. It applies insofar

As if you are disqualified from owning a firearm, you are also disqualified from owning air guns.

After that laws vary by state or municipality.

[beevul]

101. Federally?

Those federally prohibited, can still own black power arms, so it kinda doesn't make sense to me.

(unless something has changed)

[jberryhill]

102. Black Power arms?

Okay, I'll bite.

[beevul]

103. Percussion cap revolvers for example.

I maybe mistaken, but My understanding is that they're legal, even for felons, because they're not legally considered firearms.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA) prohibits felons and certain other persons from possessing or receiving firearms and ammunition (“prohibited persons”). These categories can be found at 18 U.S.C. § 922(g) and (n) in http://atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf. However, Federal law does not prohibit these persons from possessing or receiving an antique firearm. The term “antique firearm” means any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898. The definition includes any replica of an antique firearm if it is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or uses rimfire or conventional centerfire ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States, and which is not readily available in ordinary channels of commercial trade. Further, any muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or pistol which is designed to use black powder or black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition, is an “antique firearm” unless it (1) incorporates a firearm frame or receiver; (2) is a firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon; or (3) is a muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof. See 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(3), (a)(16). Thus, a muzzle loading weapon that meets the definition of an “antique firearm” is not a firearm and may lawfully be received and possessed by a prohibited person under the GCA.

My question is how could an air rifle be considered legally a firearm, if a percussion cap revolver is not.

I am not aware of any federal law on air rifles, or the ATF having any jurisdiction over them, which is why I enquired.

[mpcamb]

45. So, do they require a background check for purchase?

[cstanleytech]

47. Not a federal one but

the lack of there being a background check does not mean they arent covered by the 2nd amendment.

[mpcamb]

48. So, was one required for the assailant that was used to shot the 13 year old?

[cstanleytech]

49. You mean did the officer have to have license? Yes and the same for a background check.

[mpcamb]

50. Then it's his judgment that comes into question.

[cstanleytech]

53. Depends on what happened exactly.

The article says the kid still had the "gun" in his hand thus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule might apply and to prosecute the officer for anything in that case they would probably have to prove he knew it was not a real gun if on the other hand the kid dropped it the officer cannot use that defense and had better retain a very good criminal defense attorney.

[mpcamb]

59. Right; still, somehow it doesn't pass the sniff test.

Given history, given Freddie Gray, given all the other examples in the last several years that ended in no charges pinned on the cop but community paying thousands and millions to families, it just does smell right from the get-go.

[cstanleytech]

64. None of which is relevant to this case.

What is relevant? The evidence and the facts.
If the evidence and the facts dont prove the cop should be charged with anything then so be it and if they prove that he should be charged then again so be it.

[mpcamb]

66. The case will be decided years hence and may have little to do with the facts. Sorry, that happens.

Last edited Thu Apr 28, 2016, 01:59 PM - Edit history (1)

I just noticed the former VA of is headed to the Supreme Court seeking a 4-4 tie would keep him out of jail time ( playing the Republican refusal to entertain a nominee for a political get-out-of-jail card). Legalities get funny that way.
I don't have a lot of faith in the legal system that has so frequently found no penalty for using fire arms and choke holds on civilians when restraint was an alternative. Yeah, it'll get sorted out long into the future.

I still don't like the odor. Those who do are welcome to inhale deeply.

[Ready4Change]

42. I played with stuff like that all the time.

Very real looking replicas. Magazines loaded with caps.

Want to know the difference?

When a cop appeared, I didn't run away. I didn't wave the toy gun around, even jokingly. I never, NEVER pointed it towards the cop, or anyone else.

I dropped that toy gun like a hot potato and put my hands in the air. Cops never had time, nor reason, to draw. Because I demonstrated, quickly, that I was not a threat.

[Rhiannon12866]

75. +1

Though I think the days of playing "cops and robbers" with toy guns need to be over.

[christx30]

88. Not to defend the cop, but:

Under U.S. law the fleeing felon rule was limited in 1985 to non-lethal force in most cases by Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1. The justices held that deadly force "may not be used unless necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm to the officer or others."[2]

A police officer may not seize an unarmed, nondangerous suspect by shooting him dead...however...Where the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm, either to the officer or to others, it is not constitutionally unreasonable to prevent escape by using deadly force.

—?Justice Byron White, Tennessee v. Garner[3]
Fleeing felons may be followed into places not open to the public without a warrant if the officer is in "hot pursuit.[4] Deadly force that is executed by a co-defendant against an accomplice is not justified by the fleeing felon rule.

Sauce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule

If you round a corner, see a police officer and you run, the cop does have reasonable suspicion that you have committed a crime. He does have the right to (and probably will) pursue you. Add a gun into the mix (even if it turns out later to be a non-lethal replica), and you're liable to get shot.
Of course a kid's not going to know that. Kids get killed by their lack of knowledge all the time. That's why it's important for parents to be highly involved in everything they do.

[TipTok]

93. It's a matter of education...

Grandpa was a big gun guy and every child in the family knew the rules. Tucked in nooks and crannies and boots around the house.

A healthy knowledge of guns and an understanding of how to interact with authority figures drastically reduced any chances of this sort of things happening.

Of course, when a new kid showed up at the house, you'd see him hustling away with an armful of various firearms because he didn't know or trust them.

[fred v]

78. So you're blaming the kid?????

[Fred Drum]

86. they can shoot you

if you have a cell phone in your hand.

if you have a tomato in your pocket, its just the baton.

[GreatGazoo]

5. I had one of these, the bottom one is BB, the top is real

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2013/07/crosman-m1-carbine-bb-gun-part-1/

[Ferd Berfel]

19. but this shit is over a repilica - dosen't shoot anything

Cops are murdering first and asking questions later.

[EX500rider]

20. The replicas look just as real...my point was more parents might want to keep real looking guns..

....out of their kids hands.

[Francis Booth]

24. I've seen some of those replicas. They're virtually identical to real pistols.

They even bore out the tip of the barrel so it looks like it's chambered for a 9mm or .40 round.

They're primarily sold to people who, for whatever twisted reason, wish to appear to have an actual pistol. Real BB and pellet pistols used for target shooting look very different, with elaborate wooden grips and very long barrels for accuracy. They're also usually single-shot bolt action.

In Massachusetts, they are not considered real guns, but you can still be charged with a felony if you commit assault with one.

[Ferd Berfel]

26. I guess it's OK then that the cops shoot children first

and sort out reality afterwards. Hell the tax payers will cover it for 'em.

[Francis Booth]

30. Hell no, that wasn't my meaning at all. They shouldn't use deadly force until it's clear it's

absolutely needed. A fleeing suspect is going the othe way, and is no immediate danger.

[Angel Martin]

72. if every officer waits until deadly force

is "obviously" needed (even to police critics on DU)

those officers may not get to go home

unless they limit their shootings to politically unpopular targets

obey police instructions or pay the price

[Francis Booth]

83. This shooting differs from the ones you posted in that

a) the suspect was a child, and
b) he was going the other way, away from the police

Are the police justified in shooting at a kid just because they're running away? Does that warrant the death penalty? Kids these days, especially minority kids, have every reason to fear the police, given the well-publicized and widespread occurrences of excessive force

[Angel Martin]

94. ok how about this one

pretends to surrender, firing at officers whie running away

Fact is, officers have been killed by 12 year olds and 82 year olds. Just like the rules for auto racing, the procedures police follow to stop, question and apprehend suspects are written in blood. (the rules are written to avoid mistakes that previously got officers killed). People who do not comply with officer instructions to cease behaving in a threatening manner no longer get the benefit of the doubt.

[Francis Booth]

100. I think the burden of risk should be on the police. They signed up for it when the put on the badge

Otherwise, they could (and do) argue their way out of every questionable shooting by claiming that 'I feared for my life'. Yes, there have been examples of cops being ambushed by shooters, but does that mean they should always open fire in every single moment of doubt? Also, they have body armor and firearms training, so they hold every advantage over civilians.

I don't want to see us devolve to the point where every kid with a BB gun gets blown away for no good reason.

[Angel Martin]

104. "I think the burden of risk should be on the police. They signed up for it"

I this was your attitude towards some other employee group with a dangerous job (such as underground mining) the rest of DU would be outraged.

[Francis Booth]

105. Police are unique. We give them guns. We give them body armor. We give them the power

of life or death over every civilian they come into contact with.

The consequences of poor judgement on their part are far more serious than if we get a bad haircut or a burnt burger.

I think the burden of restraint and bar of performance on both the individual cop and the police, collectively, should be quite high.

Far too many of our police officers have dangerously inflated egos. I know this from personal experience, having been pulled over and threatened with a beatIng by a crazy cop when I was very young, and I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. He was fishing for drunk drivers, and I was leaving a bar after having only one beer that I had nursed for over an hour. He pulled me over without cause and hassled and threatened me for a half hour with field sobriety tests, repeated bullying and threats, and I was shitting my pants. I'm a very small guy, and I would have had no chance in a fight with this nut. I later found out that he had been disciplined multiplie times for excessive force, so I count myself lucky. I grovelled and called him 'Sir' enough to get out of the encounter in one piece.

I appreciate the difficulty of the job, and I know you can't judge the behavior of all police by one bad example, but there's just far too much evidence that far too many cops are just brutal bullies, and far too many shoot first and ask questions later, especially when it comes to certain demographics. I don't know of anyone who doesn't think that the police need more training in when and where to use deadly force. For the first time, with the advent of smart phones and the ubiquity of security cameras, the truth about police behavior is coming out, and it's not pretty.

[christx30]

97. Look at the replica from post #2.

If someone put this in your face and demanded your wallet, any sane person (that didn't want to die) would hand it over. Later, if you found it was "just" a bb gun, would you blame yourself for being afraid of it? Hell no. You'd still blame the robber for having it in your face.

[braddy]

106. They were just as authentic looking in the past, unless this one is real.

[DaDeacon]

4. Kid was running away...

Shooting a man or BOY in the back is a bitch move.

[NutmegYankee]

6. So the kid tried to flee, and then was shot.

WTF is that for justification? Did he threaten their out-of-shape asses with a heart attack or something?

[forest444]

37. ^ Thread winnuh!

[Judi Lynn]

44. Beautiful! Thanks. n/t

[forest444]

46. Very nice of you, Judi.

I wish it had been in happier circumstances.

[csziggy]

38. +10000000000000000000 nt

[cstanleytech]

51. Assuming the article is accurate he still had the supposed "gun" in his hand thus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleeing_felon_rule might apply.
Again thats assuming the article has the correct information, if he dropped it though the cop should be charged with assault at the very least imo.

[ReRe]

7. Stop selling those damn...

... look alike guns to kids! BB gun? This is not 1956. It's 2016! Florescent colored plastic squirt guns are what they should be allowed to play with, if that.

[Unicorn]

21. +1

And quit shooting people running away. And quit shooting kids.

[ReRe]

31. Duh..

... yeah. Since when is running away a crime? Jesus, kids are scared to death you're going to shoot them dead and NEVER get to ask them questions! Seriously, and for God's sake, stop shooting at them! WTF is wrong with grown men wanting to shoot kids? They're not road kill, they're little human effing beings!

[Reter]

67. "WTF is wrong with grown men wanting to shoot kids?"

You make it sound so simple and one-sided, but it's not. You wen't there. The officer obviously though it was a real gun, and deemed him a code-red mortal threat. In his eyes, he could have turned at any second and shot him, so he had little choice.

[ReRe]

71. I've raised 3 boys to aduthood

I had a bunch of Uncles. I mean a bunch. Had a father AND a stepfather. I've known my share of men. And NONE of them, I repeat none of them, ever had any animosity towards a kid. Maybe I've lived a blessed life in a bubble? I don't think so.

It IS that simple. If one is so scared of a child, don't you think one might want to get into anther line of work/career?

[Reter]

90. Animosity towards kids???

Who has any animosity? The cop seen someone he thought was an immediate threat. If he/she thinks his/her life is in danger, it doesn't matter if the person is a kid, woman, or elderly.

I don't care if you're in the UFC and the champ, you should be scared on anyone with a gun.

[ReRe]

91. Well, not all people ARE

afraid of a kid with a gun, which 9 times out of ten is a TOY. Again, if one is afraid of their shadow, don't go into law enforcement. I'm not afraid of guns. Never owned one, maybe that's why. There is no reason to continue this conversation, unless you get off on arguing. That's why I have ended my conversation with you. I don't like to argue for arguing's sake. Peace.

[raccoon]

87. Thank you. Apparently in the minds of some who weren't there, the cop should have intuitively

known that (1) it wasn't a real gun, just a very close look-alike, and (2) that the kid was not going to turn at any second and shoot him (the cop).

[cstanleytech]

54. Well its a good idea but you just know there will be some idiots who will spray paint them to make

them look "real" which kinda defeats the whole florescent coloring thing.

[ReRe]

57. You're right.

Nix all of them. I'm old enough to remember the boys using sticks as guns.

[cstanleytech]

61. I wouldnt object to them doing that but again you then run into the 2nd amendment issues

and thats assuming you could even get the Republicans who control Congress to pass such a law but even if they did it will be challenged in court and given the current makeup of SCOTUS I wouldnt be willing to wager any money on it surviving.

[ReRe]

63. I don't know...

... if I'm following you. Do you mean a 2nd Amendment for baring TOY GUNS?

[cstanleytech]

65. Nope, for barring CO2 ones.

You can try to bar the other ones that look real but dont function in any real way but how do you bar them if say its an "artist" whos making them and not violate the 1st amendment?

[ReRe]

69. I give up on that one....

... way above my pay grade.

[cstanleytech]

70. Thats probably why the government has been reluctant to

address the problem because it just opens up a freaking can of worms with the varies constitutional amendments.
Course if they did try I wouldnt mind owning some stock in Bayer because you can bet that its gonna cause alot of headaches.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

107. Because real guns are always black?

Real gun:

[Unicorn]

10. He was running away and they shot him? Poor kid.

I also hope he recovers and that an investigation into the shooting happens.

I'm glad my parents rejected even toy guns in our house. My dad didn't want us playing with guns in any form.

[red dog 1]

27. + 1

[llmart]

41. Same here.

My Dad wouldn't allow my three brothers to have toy guns. Interestingly enough, not a one of them ever got into hunting or ever wanted a gun or even to try to shoot one for "fun". They just didn't.

Now alcohol.....well, that's another subject Maybe it's a good thing they were never interested in guns!

[cstanleytech]

55. "I also hope he recovers and that an investigation into the shooting happens." Agree 100% there. nt

[Journeyman]

11. Better to more accurately read the hour, and so advise ourselves and our children . . .

[crim son]

13. I never let my kids play with toy guns, not even water guns.

I'm THAT opposed to them. However the penalty for playing with one should not be injury or death. Jeebus.

[sulphurdunn]

15. What difference does it make whether the gun was real or not?

What I get from the story is that the cops confronted the kid. He dropped the gun and ran. They shot him. If he was running away they most likely shot him in the back. At the point the kid dropped the gun and ran, he was no longer a threat to them. What the gun looked like was irrelevant. So, why did they shoot him? Whatever the reason, it had nothing to do with their personal safety, and their personal paranoia is not a justification.

[sarisataka]

18. The article states

He did not drop the BB gun while running.

[sulphurdunn]

36. Thanks for the correction.

They just shot him in the back while he was fleeing, after having committed no crime they could ascertain other than running away.

[sarisataka]

43. Holding on to the gun will complicate

The investigations. But from my POV it is still hard if not impossible to justify shooting under the given circumstances.

[cstanleytech]

58. Thats only if the kid actually held onto it, if he did then my money is on the officer probably

not facing charges and the family probably will have an extremely hard time winning any civil lawsuit should they file one.
If the kid dropped it though or evidence is uncovered that shows that the officer suspected that it was not a real gun then thats an entirely different ballgame and the police officer had better get a good attorney.

[sulphurdunn]

84. I agree

[jtuck004]

56. The harm is potential harm to others from a handgun after being given a lawful order to stop.

I don't know their specific laws in that jurisdiction, but in many places he committed a felony at that point, and the weapon he still held constituted a direct threat to others. Or it might have already been used, and could be used again.

A whole raft of issues around that which are the real reasons.

[sulphurdunn]

85. Using your logic, the police

could make the same argument for shooting you if they thought you had something in your hand that might be a weapon (a toy gun, a cell phone) whether you ran or not. The fact remains the kid was unarmed and fleeing. I think that when the police can justify killing you over suspicion, society is in deep shit.

[jtuck004]

89. It's not logic, it's black-letter law. He was given an order to drop the weapon. He got shot for

running away, and perhaps because he was black.

The weapon he had has no markings at all to prove it isn't real, modeled after a semi-automatic handgun, down to the color.

He had a weapon in his hand. He was given an order to drop it, but he ran, perhaps because he is black and figured it was his last chance with the police, which isn't a bad assumption. They might have shot him regardless.

But the act of running with a weapon, after he had been told to drop it by a sworn office, is a crime.

Society is in deep shit when people start making up new laws after every situation to justify their own bias.

[sulphurdunn]

95. No new laws here. No bias, but the shit is getting deep.

Baltimore police use of deadly force with a firearm:

GENERAL ORDER 2-88, (C-2), RULES AND REGULATIONS, RULE 3, FIREARMS.

Members of this department shall not use firearms in the discharge of their duty, except in the following cases:

In self-defense, or to defend another person (unlawfully attacked) from death or serious injury.

To effect the arrest or to prevent the escape, when other means are insufficient, of a person whom the officer has probable cause to believe:
Has committed a felony involving the use or threat of deadly force or serious physical injury; and
Who poses an imminent threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others.”

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=post&forum=1014&pid=1430948

[jtuck004]

98. "Has committed a felony involving the use or threat of deadly forc" The moment he refused to

drop the weapon and turned away to flee.

Still, plenty of white folks do similar and even more dangerous things to the police, even take over whole federal compounds, and they aren't shot. At least not immediately and without a whole lot more provocation than this.

So we shouldn't limit the discussion to just that act. It's too simplistic and leaves us nowhere. Black folks get assaulted and killed no matter whether they have a gun or not, so to leave it at that leaves us with no solution.

We ought to be dealing with this stuff before the militaristic police force is called. "

"but the shit is getting deep." < Yeah, I read your stuff. No point in talking further with randos who have nothing to offer.

[Unicorn]

23. Agreed. I suspect this is going to be a black kid.

[cstanleytech]

68. A pretty good bet especially given that as of the 2010 census 63.7% of the population was.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0108485.html

[yourpaljoey]

32. damn

[rollin74]

34. does the news story say that he "dropped the gun"?

no. in fact it indicates that he didn't drop it.

where did you get the information that the firearm replica was dropped?

[sulphurdunn]

39. I misread that in the article.

Apparently, they shot the kid for running away and not dropping a weapon, real or otherwise, with which he had not threatened them. I guess that changes everything. Right?

[Stonepounder]

35. The point is he was running away from them.

Did they have any indication that he had committed or was about to commit some sort of violent crime? Did they perceive that they were in mortal danger from a 13-year-old kid running away from them? Oh wait, he probably reached for their guns as he was running away from them, right?

[Skwmom]

16. If you shoot someone that is unarmed you should be held accountable.

[Democat]

82. Looks like he was armed with a gun

But running away, so sounds like a trigger happy officer.

[Skwmom]

92. There needs to be some serious training of police in this country.

[Dont call me Shirley]

17. The kid...

To the KKKowards...

[sus453]

22. Another thing to take into account is that

the two police officers were plain-clothed and were driving an unmarked car. One of the two aimed his gun and shot a fleeing child.

[Thor_MN]

28. So, in other words, an officially sanctioned drive-by shooting...

[IronLionZion]

25. Guns, even BB guns, are not toys to be running around with

and should not be played with. Keep it at home and keep it concealed until you get to the shooting range. Yes, I've used BB guns before for target shooting. It's not something that I would walk around city streets holding.

There are assholes in this country (not just police) running around open carrying real guns just looking for an excuse to shoot someone. Don't give them an excuse. They are already fantasizing that terrorists/communists/zombies/etc. are coming to kill them and they can be a hero.

[red dog 1]

29. I'm glad the kid will survive his injuries

The boy's mother is partly to blame.

In a rural area, seeing your son leaving home with a BB gun is one thing;
but in a city, seeing your son leaving home with a BB gun is totally unacceptable.
My guess is that Baltimore, like most other cities, has laws against firing "any projectile" within city limits.

The kid should never have been given a BB gun in the first place


K&R, thanks for posting.

[840high]

33. +1

[cvoogt]

62. "young man" ???????

He is 13 - a boy, not a young man. Somehow black kids are perceived as adults, and white kids as .. kids. After the Tamir Rice settlement I'd think law enforcement would change tack a bit.

[mwrguy]

79. Playing while black

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

96. Here we go again