Study: Sanders' economic plan piles $18T on federal debt

[question everything]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by mcar (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: Yahoo (AP)

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sen. Bernie Sanders' tax and spending proposals would provide new levels of health and education benefits for American families, but they'd also blow an $18-trillion hole in federal deficits, piling on so much debt they would damage the economy.

That sobering assessment comes from a joint analysis released Monday by the nonpartisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center and the Urban Institute Health Policy Center, well-known Washington think tanks.

The bottom line: Sanders would raise taxes by more than $15 trillion over 10 years, with most of that paid by upper-income earners. But his proposed government-run health care system, along with free undergraduate college, enhanced Social Security, family and medical leave, and other new programs, would spend far more, adding $18 trillion to federal debt over a decade.


Read more: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/study-sanders-economic-plan-piles-170219543.html

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

1. But but but

Free stuff

[w4rma]

14. Study: Most would see net benefits from Sanders's proposals

All but the wealthiest households would see net income gains under Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders’s proposals, according to a report released Monday.

“For most households, additional government benefits would more than offset the tax increases,” the non-partisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center (TPC) said in the report.
…
TPC found that the average tax burden would increase by about $9,000 in 2017 but the average amount of benefits would increase by more than $13,000. As a result, households would on average receive a net income gain of almost $4,300 under Sanders’s proposals, TPC said.

Households in the bottom fifth of income would on average receive a net gain of more than $10,000, and those in the middle fifth of income would have an average gain of about $8,500. Those in the top 5 percent of income would see a net loss of about $111,000, TPC said.

“We have never seen a proposal as progressive” as Sanders’s, Burman said.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/279201-study-most-would-see-net-benefits-from-sanderss-proposals

[hamsterjill]

23. Concerning to me

I used the calculator that was on DU a few weeks ago. My taxes (and I am anything BUT wealthy) would increase by $8,000 per year.

I would get no benefit to my knowledge.

[ErikJ]

89. You wouldnt have to pay for health insurance

or your company wouldnt meaning they would boost your pay.

[hamsterjill]

90. Like hell the company would boost my pay.

That's the reality, unfortunately.

I am employed by a small business. My healthcare premiums more than DOUBLED last year. If the company got the opportunity to pay less in health care coverage for me, they would see it as a recouping some of their expense thus far.

Look - I want everyone to have health care coverage. I really do. But I can't afford to have my income reduced by $8,000. I'm sorry. I just can't. I barely make ends meet right now.

"Wealthy" isn't always defined as simply how much money one makes, but rather, is more aptly defined by how much one has left after all of the responsibilities and expenses are paid.

[ErikJ]

93. Do you pay for some of your health care premiums?

If you do those would go away with Medicare for all. Your company wouldnt have to pay either meaning they would have more to pay their employees.

[hamsterjill]

97. No, the company pays for mine.

I realize that's a nice perk, but it was also something that I negotiated when I took this job. Negotiating is not an easy task, and I have worked hard to have the job I have, put up with a lot of shit to stay here, and feel that I deserve the salary that I earn. I've been working since I was 16 and have never had more than three weeks (consecutive) off in my life. The three weeks that I did have one time was maternity leave. I've never been unemployed for longer than two weeks because I had a child I had to support so I simply HAD to find a job.

And I am not shitting you here. This is the truth.

I repeat, the company will not be passing their savings on to me because THEIR percentage tax is going to skyrocket.

Again, I'm still in favor of people having coverage for healthcare, but I'm just illustrating my own situation. It's not as simple as some think it is to change the ways this country has been run for centuries, etc.

And in all reality, there are going to be a LOT of people who are in the same situation that I am in.

[ErikJ]

99. You cant say your co.'s tax rate will skyrocket.

Sanders will be closing a lot of the big corp tax loopholes that allow them to pay no income tax at all, like GE and dozens more. Our current effective corp tax rate is about 10% which is much too low. You guys are prob already paying a lot more than that unless they use big co loopholes.

A univ health care typically saves trillions compared to our current hodge podge pathwork system does. Everything is streamlined and unified for max efficiency which saves trillions.

Japan tightly controls all costs of healthcare whuich is private there. Hospitals cant charge more than $10 a night for a room. MRIs are like $100 there compared to $1000's here. It works well. Everybody is insured and Japan spends half per person on healthcare than we do with much better results. No appointments are necessary to be seen by any specialist you want. Typical fam of 4 pays about $120 a mo for health insur. Unemployed get special insurance which is even cheaper.

[hamsterjill]

100. My company is owned by one individual.

His individual tax rate will skyrocket, and he won't be inclined to share, I promise you.

So out of all of these trillions that will be saved on healthcare, if I don't get anything from my company, where do I get my share of the trillions?

[ErikJ]

102. If he wants to keep his employees he will.

His competition will begin paying more to employees and he'll have to follow suit. Thats how it works.

[hamsterjill]

111. No, that's not how it always work.

We are a diverse makeup of different personalities, etc. in this country.

There is no competition in this particular market, especially when other people in the same business are facing the same things as my employer.

Bernie's plan simply doesn't work for my situation.

[ErikJ]

112. Of course it does. THe patchwork quilt system we have now

does NOT work. WAY too much bureaucracy and paperwork between different plans and private enterprises. It is a maze of nightmares leaving millions sick and broke in its wake.
Universal systems and efficiencies always work much better and cheaper.

[hamsterjill]

113. Look I'm telling you I can't afford it.

I'm sorry. I'd love to be able to have everyone covered, but an $8,000 increase will put me out on the street after working my entire life, and I'm not willing to do that.

That's not fair to me and others like me. We are not the ones taking Carribbean vacations. We are the ones already being skewered by taxation and more being taken from us will not make our lives better.

This is reality.

[JackRiddler]

103. What is your income?

Telling us your tax bill increase doesn't say very much without telling us your income.

What would be your gain from lower insurance premiums?

What is an economically just and humane society worth to you?

[ReRe]

92. But would the M$M report this?

... What the M$M will do is scream about the debt, the debt, the debt. The $Trillions of debt.

Bernie needs to tell the People how it would all balance out

[ForgoTheConsequence]

17. People who cannot see a doctor or go to school don't see it as "free stuff".

Your hatred of the poor and working poor is appalling.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

32. Oh grow up

The poor qualify for Medicaid which was expanded under Obama. #FeelTheReality

[ForgoTheConsequence]

35. And those on high deductible plans that can't afford to use them?

I deal with this stuff first hand everyday, helping people find ways to get health care without going bankrupt. It's not "free stuff" and seeing "Democrats" dismiss the plight of the poor and working poor in this country is infuriating. I live the reality, you're clueless.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

37. May brother is on the the Washington Apple

Which does not have high deductibles. Look it up.

#FeelTheReality

[bjobotts]

48. A "Study"...from "Yahoo"...hahaha hahah ahaha haha haha hahah haha.Made up nonsense

[ForgoTheConsequence]

95. Ok?

Thats awesome for him. The reality is millions still cannot see a doctor.


Leave your cult of personality and your suburb and experience real life.

[Chan790]

104. Ever been on Medicaid?

It's not that great.

It's free insurance that 95% of medical professionals won't accept, it often requires insane amounts of hoop jumping (need an MRI? You've got to get an x-ray first so they can determine that the x-ray isn't diagnostic...even where the x-ray couldn't possibly be diagnostic. (e.g. soft-tissue spinal injuries)), the wait times to see even a run-of-the-mill specialist can be extreme. (I know someone that had to wait 6 months to see a ENT for chronic sinus infection because the ENT doctor only saw Medicaid patients on Mondays in the afternoon and he was the only ENT covered...ENTs aren't even uncommon; I'd imagine the impact on prognosis would be severe if you had to wait for an oncologist, endocrinologist or rare-disease specialist.)

Even with the expansion of Medicaid...nobody wants to be subjected to Medicaid; you get what you pay for. I actually advised someone this year to lie and report a higher income (by about $4000) so they could qualify into the exchange (and pay for insurance) and out of Medicaid (free!) because they really need better care than they will get out of Medicaid.

[bjobotts]

33. Nonsense.Revenue would increase by more than that.Read Black-economist.

This post is misleading as it does not take into account the huge revenue increase from Bernie's economic plans nor does it mention the savings from increased taxes. Spend $4800 on health care ins now but raise taxes by $400 per year and pay $600 on health care ins...a savings of $3800. Yet it shows taxes increasing but this post does not show the savings. nor does it show the increased revenue from a wall street transaction tax or an increase in taxes from the corporations not paying their fair share now. This post just lumps it all together to make it seem like taxes are going up when in fact benefits and revenue increases are overlooked. "Free stuff" refers to corporate welfare. Just keep drinking the corporate welfare cool aid.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

53. Just keep drinking the corporate welfare cool aid.

When did I say I supported corporate welfare? Quite a straw man you just built there.

As to your claim of increased revenue that's about as dumb as trickle economics. Even liberal economist Paul Krugman says Sanders numbers are unrealistic.

[Stryder]

98. I found this interesting...

http://billmoyers.com/story/the-sanders-economic-plan-controversy/

"Apparently, though, none of the critics actually ran Sanders’ proposals through their own economic models to see if the results differed from Friedman’s. They just followed the White House advisers’ letter and went ballistic."

[LanternWaste]

73. I'd pretend it was "free stuff" too were I less educated and more irrational.

I'd pretend it was "free stuff" too were I less educated and more irrational. Though no doubt, you'll rationalize a much different reason, and allege that to be the case... (I would too-- it's difficult to justify being a progressive after we accurately advertise ourselves as being something much different)

[frylock]

2. We need that money for moar war.

Get with the program, Bernie.

[JDPriestly]

3. In his book, Outsider in the White House, Bernie specifically identifies a number of programs in

budget that he would eliminate to save money.

In Los Angeles at the Sports Center speech, he said the first thing he would do as president is audit our military.

He is on the Budget Committee in the Senate.

He is on top of this one.

[pandr32]

18. Applause for you telling the truth

[iandhr]

28. Figure the internet can use some facts now and then.

[stopbush]

21. Sanders' VT has been a YUGE beneficiary of the F35 program.

He rails against pork barrel spending unless it's for his state.

How about that?

[iandhr]

22. I am SHOCKED SHOCKED. Well not that shocked.

[bjobotts]

36. The rarest and most honest progressive of our times is not perfect? Who knew

[iandhr]

39. He portrays himself to be holier than thou.

[Surya Gayatri]

59. ...

[stopbush]

25. Sanders could eliminate the entire defense budget. That saves you $600-billion a year.

Over 10 years, that's $6-trillion. How does that help eliminate the $18-trillion in deficit spending Sanders is proposing? It doesn't. It gets you 1/3 of the way there. And again, that's by eliminating the ENTIRE defense budget for 10 years. Where are you going to find an additional $12-trillion in savings?

[iandhr]

40. There you go with the facts again.

That won't work here.

[JDPriestly]

42. We already pay for much of what Sanders is suggesting.

We pay for health insurance. Instead of giving the money to for-profit companies, we would give it to one fund or to non-profits. We would insure more people for less.

We pay for our college educations. Instead of loaning money to students, the government would raise taxes to cover the amount it now loans. The taxes would be paid by those who make enough money to pay the taxes rather than having the money loaned presumably in many cases by the government directly to the students. Students who get out of college and make good money would pay back what we now loan but in the form of taxes rather than in the form of loan payments with interest.

Sanders' free college tuition plan only covers state-run schools and only covers tuition. With his plan, we could eliminate the expensive and cumbersome student loan processing. That would make education a bit cheaper. Also, we would not have to chase down those who default on their student loans. I used to go through the complaints in the federal court in Los Angeles every day. If we ended our actions against student loan defaults, we could save some money.

The articles that talk about the billions Sanders plans would cost do not credit the billions they would save.

Which of his plans suggests giving away money that we don't already spend? Very few if any.

And as I say, Sanders knows our federal budget backwards and forwards. He is on the budget committee. Read his book. He lists quite a large number of federal programs that he would eliminate in order to save money.

The article is merely propaganda. They should have interviewed Sanders to find out his response.

[CanSocDem]

70. Exactly!!

The MSM is worried that the big lie is about to be exposed. Making a profit isn't required to improve the lives of the citizens.

Many Americans are hearing this for the first time and I'm sure they are deeply confused. They read the MSM and aspire for the privilege of higher education and consider themselves well rounded liberals. One doesn't need to stray too far from here to hear how genuine social equality is less important than ones wealth or gender.

Good thread.


.

[bjobotts]

43. Putting a 1% trans action tax on wall street provides $12 trillion over next ten years

And that is just a start. The trillions hidden in the Caymans to avoid taxes fills the void. Stop pretending we can't when we can. Tariffs and taxes make it possible to bring the jobs back to America by making it more costly to make it outside the country and bring it back in than to just make it here to begin with. Same with services. Get rid of trade deals. More economist agree with Bernie than disagree but the media blacks them out. "Single short sighted nonsense" should be the heading of this post.

[CrowCityDem]

49. Tariffs also mean everything will cost far more, which wages won't cover.

[Gomez163]

58. Yeah. That will sail thru Congress

[Jackie Wilson Said]

4. Bullshit, this is establishment whitewash.

Get single payer or else.

Americans need that attitude.

General strike

[philosslayer]

6. You first.

N/t

[stopbush]

26. Oooo. You said "establishment," so you must be right!

[Jackie Wilson Said]

27. I will aggressively support Hillary if Bernie loses, but that doesnt mean I dont

know bullshit when i see it.

Either we get single payer and soon, or this society will self destruct

I am amazed people have put up with this as long as we have.

[Plucketeer]

5. Oh HORRORS!

Wondering what sort of "suffering" we're enduring by being self-financed Mercenaries-to-the-World???

[KamaAina]

7. You can't spell crap without AP.

[KansDem]

12. !!

I'll have to remember that!

[CrowCityDem]

8. I don't know why anyone believes the country has an appetite for the tax increases he suggests.

Everything we ever hear is that all but the most liberal among us think that taxes are already too high. The only area where people seem to be in favor of increases are with the wealthy, but even there, I've seen little evidence that 70% tax rates are something the public is in favor of.

[stopbush]

16. Sanders loves to cite Denmark as a socialist heaven.

But people in Denmark pay over 45% of their yearly income in taxes.

How many Americans are willing to pay that much to have the level of socialism Sanders is advocating for the USA?

[Beowulf]

46. And the Danes rank much higher on happiness indexes than do Americans.

[LonePirate]

62. So how do you convince Americans?

Let's disregard the fact that most Americans couldn't tell you where Danes live. First, you need to convince Americans that Danes are happier than they are. Second, you need to convince Americans that they should want to be as happy the Danish people. Until then, trotting out the Danes are happier line will have no effect on American politics.

[EX500rider]

88. WOW! All 5 million of them, huh? lol

Pretty sure i could cherry pick 1- 5 million population block in the US that is as happy or happier then the Danes.

[NickB79]

63. To have what the Danes have? Sign me up

Just the fact that I'd know there's a REAL social safety net underneath me, where I won't be living on the street if I get cancer or my job gets outsourced, would be worth real money for the peace of mind it would bring.

How much do we spend every year in this country on anti-depression and anti-anxiety meds, and visits to mental health clinics, that would probably be done away with if millions of us didn't have to worry daily about how we're going to get by from one day to the next? Hell, how many crimes and murders would be averted if we weren't pushed to the breaking point daily from the stress of walking the tightrope that is the American Dream?

[stopbush]

76. Sign you up?

What about the family of four making $50,000 a year? Should they be paying the feds $23k a year in taxes, leaving them with $27,000 a year from which to pay rent/mortgage, food, cars, and all of life's other necessities? A rent of only $1000 a month puts their disposable income down to $15,000. That's $1250 A MONTH for a family of four to live on.

[rurallib]

24. because there are tons of saving from

insurance premiums, deductibles and co-pays among other things.

Read that story this morning and couldn't believe what a load of crap it was.

[CrowCityDem]

31. Yes, there would be benefits as well...

but we have yet to see any strong indication that people are going to be comfortable seeing the numbers on their paychecks and tax statements if those kinds of increases go through. Some people are willing to pay more, but I don't think many are willing to pay that much more.

[rurallib]

50. I will respectfully disagree

when it is shown that a few more thousands in taxes replaces ten thousand + in premiums, co=pays and deductibles then I think many will see the benefit immediately.
I doubt anyone thought it would all magically be free.

Europeans don't seem to have a major problem with taxes when benefits are quite tangible and take much of life's major uncertainties out of the picture.

[Databuser]

34. About them "70% tax rates" .....

The highest rates - according to Senator Sander's Tax Plan -
would be on those folks making over $10,000,000.00/yr.

THEIR tax rate? 54.2%.....

NOT 70%, as ~you~ say

[CrowCityDem]

38. I was including state taxes, since people often look just at the bottom line, and conflate them all.

[truebluegreen]

108. Do you understand the concept of marginal rates

and a progressive tax system? I'm thinking not.

[JDPriestly]

44. We already pay exorbitant amounts of health insurance. I'd rather pay that money in taxes and get

single payer, non-profit coverage.

How much do we pay for an overly complicated insurance system that blocks our way to healthcare?

I lived in Europe and enjoyed the single-payer systems in four European countries. I cannot be fooled by the nonsense in that OP.

Americans are being fed lies by the insurance industry.

[stopbush]

79. Single payer has nothing to do with non-profit.

Don't you know that?

[McKim]

107. Please Increase My Taxes to Help Others

Unlike some on this thread, some of us really would like to pay more taxes to take care of our brothers and sisters. Buying into the anti tax epidemic encourages selfishness and hatred for the poor. I am ready to pay more for all our sakes.

[thereismore]

10. I'll show you studies that tell you how great trickle down economics is. nt

[LiberalArkie]

11. Such as non-partisan think-tank

In 2002, tax specialists who had served in the Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and Bill Clinton administrations established the Tax Policy Center to provide analysis of tax issues.

[w4rma]

13. Study: Most would see net benefits from Sanders's proposals

All but the wealthiest households would see net income gains under Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders’s proposals, according to a report released Monday.

“For most households, additional government benefits would more than offset the tax increases,” the non-partisan Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center (TPC) said in the report.
…
TPC found that the average tax burden would increase by about $9,000 in 2017 but the average amount of benefits would increase by more than $13,000. As a result, households would on average receive a net income gain of almost $4,300 under Sanders’s proposals, TPC said.

Households in the bottom fifth of income would on average receive a net gain of more than $10,000, and those in the middle fifth of income would have an average gain of about $8,500. Those in the top 5 percent of income would see a net loss of about $111,000, TPC said.

“We have never seen a proposal as progressive” as Sanders’s, Burman said.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/279201-study-most-would-see-net-benefits-from-sanderss-proposals

[-none]

67. That $4,300 would be money spent in the economy, getting it actually going again.

Not this paper chase trying to show the economy is somehow improving.

More money in circulation, equals more business, equals more jobs, equals more more money in circulation, equals...
What is so hard to understand about this?

[Shadowflash]

15. Then, as a partial measure

We should quit giving billions of dollars to Israel (and other countries) so they can provide single payer healthcare to their citizens and keep that money here so we can do it.

[stopbush]

20. What % of the US budget goes to foreign aid?

Do you know?

[LonePirate]

66. I'm sure you're aware of which side of political spectrum propagates that foreign aid talking point.

It certainly is not a left talking point.

[stopbush]

75. Foreign aid is LESS than 1% of the federal budget.

There are no real savings to be had by cutting off aid to Israel etal.

[LonePirate]

77. I agree. The whole notion of cutting foreign aid to fund a single payer system is absurd.

[Trust Buster]

19. Yes Bernie and friends, there really is a Santa Claus. LOL

[Festivito]

29. I can see they're playing dumb. 10yr cost 32T$ - 15.2T$ increase on wealthy. They forget...

That the cost of single payer across the world is LESS THAN HALF what we pay per capita per year. Thus that 32T$ figure should be closer to 15T$ which is what he suggests in tax increase.

Note that that tax increase comes with a DECREASE IN PERSONAL HEALTH CARE COSTS. That is, instead of ourselves or our employers paying for health care, our government pays it instead. It actually would look like a DECREASE for each of us.

[CrowCityDem]

41. We don't know the real numbers for single payer...

because Bernie's plan would be the most generous in the world. Covering absolutely everything without any out-of-pocket payments is unprecedented, and we can't simply use European numbers as a perfect baseline. There's a very good chance that, given the differences in the plans, the savings will be considerably less than Bernie promises.

[Festivito]

45. Can you name one thing not covered in any of: England, Sweden, Germany, France, ...

... . Being that you seem to know so much more than the people who costed Bernie's plan.

[CrowCityDem]

47. Most of those countries...

have boards that, to use the scary word, 'ration' care. You can't get any drug or any procedure you want at any time. I do not know the intricacies of the various systems, but I have never seen an article showing that any other country has a plan as generous as what Bernie has proposed. Unless, of course, his plan does not actually match what he tells people in his speeches.

[Festivito]

55. Thought not. Know any procedures that have wait times there that don't here?

Oh, AMA, against medical advice doesn't count.

I know of some procedures that are faster in other countries with single payer than those same procedures are done here.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

56. I don't believe Germany has single payer

They choose from a pool of companies which are non-profits by law.

[Festivito]

60. But, they cover everyone at half our cost. Name one thing not covered by the non-corp insured then.

Because it's covering everyone that is the cost savings that are important. If you get seen more quickly with a bribe policy, that could work if done right.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

64. Name one thing not covered by the non-corp insured then

I think I addressed that point when I said they're non-profits by law.

[Festivito]

71. Then go ahead and name one thing not covered by any of those.

And, no, you saying Germany has non-profits by law, not by law, regardless of law, ... is not you stating witch a medical procedure that is not covered there.

[JDPriestly]

52. Bernie has been in Congress since 1992. He knows, and we know that when we get single payer (and

we will get it because our current system is kind of a Ponzi scheme designed to fall apart), it will be much better than what we have but will not have every bell and whistle at the outset that could be dreamed of. Congress will have a say and we will get a final product that Congress passes, not our dreams.

I lived in Europe for years, four different countries, had two children while there, one with a complex medical problem, had a complex medical problem myself and was delighted with single payer.

Experience is the best teacher.

Go to Europe. Get a job there. Pay into the single payer system for some years, say ten or twelve, and then come back and argue for or against it. Single payer saves money because it reduces the complexity of billing and authorization for doctors.

The doctor of a friend of mine here in America was examining her and stopped. He said he wanted to order a test for her but that his insurance company had told him that he could only order so many of that test in a month or else so he did not know what to do. That story is hard to believe, but I trust my friend. Private, for-profit insurance companies should not have that kind of power.

Our system is really bad. Americans don't realize how bad it is. We have great doctors, but a horrible insurance system.

I'm on Medicare. Hurrah! I finally don't have to worry so much about the insurance and whether I can pay for it or what I'm covered for. Hurrah for Medicare. It's worth every penny I paid into it. Raising the Medicare tax by lifting the cap on higher incomes would be great if we could all enjoy the equivalent of Medicare.

[CrowCityDem]

57. All I said was...

using the NUMBERS from the European systems may not be accurate, since what Bernie has proposed is more generous than those systems. I'm not arguing about the actual benefits of such a system. I was strictly saying that the initial claim that single payer will reduce costs by __% is up in the air, since there isn't a direct comparison to be made.

[Festivito]

65. Less than half MAY NOT BE ACCURATE for you, but it is accurate enough for a lot of people!

[CrowCityDem]

68. Did you just say whatever numbers we like are 'our truth'?

[Festivito]

74. No, but I'd say that the "it's not accurate" is a game of smoke, haze, obfuscation: hiding of truth.

[Thinkingabout]

30. He has stated many times it is time for the rich to pay their fair share of taxes, then someone in

the top 6% of wages (Sanders) needs to pay more than the less than 10% of his wages in taxes. He has not given a correct forecast on how much his agenda is going to cost, he has had plenty of time to correct his forecast, just does not do this, I wonder why.

[bvar22]

51. Pick up a clue.

Every other developed nation in The World has successfully managed to provide Universal Health Care and Free or very low cost education for EVERYBODY.

[jmowreader]

80. Maybe you should be the one to pick up the clue

No nation in the entire world has implemented anything even close to what Bernie wants.

We can do better than we are. We can NOT do what Bernie Sanders has suggested.

[McKim]

105. Oh, is Bernie Unrealistic? For Shame!

Oh my goodness, we can't have something better than in Europe and raise taxes to do it, that would be a crime!

[jmowreader]

109. Oh my goodness, you have no idea what you're talking about!

Let's skip over the "but the American people will be SO much better off!" meme and tell me where Bernie finds the extra $6 trillion a year he's going to actually need to pay for everything he's been proposing. The tax increases he wants only come to about $1.5 trillion, so there's a $4.5 trillion gap between Bernie's revenue and Bernie's spending. The worldwide bond market can't absorb an extra $4.5 trillion in bonds per year.

We "can't have something better than in Europe" BECAUSE THERE'S NOT THAT MUCH MONEY IN THE ENTIRE WORLD! Bernie talks about Denmark a lot. Bernie hasn't mentioned a couple of little tidbits about Denmark: its landmass is roughly 2x New Jersey (or about half of West Virginia), and its population is close to Wisconsin's. IOW, its demographics are that of one moderately-sized US state. And really, you can do a LOT for six million people that you can't do for 300 million.

We aren't Europe. We are too big and too decentralized to ever be like Europe. So we need to do things that are for America, not for Europe.

[JDPriestly]

54. Our current plan costs lives. The only reason that single payer could be more expensive than the

for-profit mess we have now instead of insurance would be because more people would be covered.

The lack of coverage for many people including a lot of homeless people and people who fall off the radar is early death. People die when they can't afford medications or doctor's appointments.

That is what is happening now.

Obamacare is great if you can afford the co-pays.

[McKim]

106. My Niece Died Because She Could Not Afford a Copay

My niece died last year. She lived in a red state where the copays were very high. This was a deterrent and she failed to see a doctor in time. She died of lung cancer, never smoked. This argument is about real people and real life and death. We need that European health care system here and we need to pay for it. So what if taxes go up. It is time people took some responsibility for each other in this country. I am ready to pay more taxes if these situations can be avoided.

[polly7]

61. 11th richest country in the world (?), we're around 23rd, here.

More millionaires than any other nation, what's the problem with paying for health-care?

[ThoughtCriminal]

69. Sourcewatch - both sources

"Non partisan"? - yeah sure. Right wing and corporate funded.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Brookings_Institution

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Urban_Institute

[Doctor_J]

84. And probably blue nation review, Hillary's own right wing organ

Hillarians really hate the thought of Americans getting healthcare without paying billions in profits to insurance executives.

[colsohlibgal]

72. Not Necessarily

Slash the ridiculous defense budget, institute a VAT tax, legalize pot and profit big time off it. Then it shouldn't be so bad.

And...multi trillions for wars....no problem. But to help the lives of average people is a huge problem.

[KPN]

78. Recycling this crap again? Different study, same bogus result -- easily refuted

last time. The Hillary camp is obviously getting nervous! Trotting out all kinds of negative stuff via purchased media and surrogates.

[Victor_c3]

81. Fuck it!

American taxpayers expecting their government to take care of the rather than the corporations that pay little to no taxes are just greedy and selfish.

Fuck Bernie Sanders and his idea that government should actually serve its citizen taxpayers. My vote is now firmly with Hillary Clinton and her corporate sponsors. Those are the types that really matter. Everyone else is just a worthless eater and doesn't deserve to live!

Incremental progress (or a lack thereof) is where my vote is going to be this fall :cheers:

[Doctor_J]

82. I saw this headline when my office mate had his browser open to Fox nation

Interesting that hillarians use free republic talking points

[McKim]

83. Tax and Spend for Our Own People: Bring it On!

This is great news. I wish they would tax me more to help our own people, instead of spending my tax dollars on Hillary's iraq War,
Syria and Libya and Honduras Interventions! I like helping people instead of killing them to take their stuff. I am a Sanders voter to the bitter end.

[Gore1FL]

85. Considering how awesome they thought Romney was, I'll pass on this assessment.

Thanks anyways.

[allinthegame]

86. Thinking this through

I live in CA...a pricy place to live and my taxes would rise $13,000 which clearly means I can pay rent OR all my other bills with Bernie's plan in place.
I am for single payer health care however I do not back "free college" without some student give back...either teaching for a number of years or social service work. I am not prepared to finance someone's 4 year diploma in dance.
A survey at VOX showed that student age voters are "willing" to pay an extra $1000 in taxes for a free education. This is why they can't figure out the cost of student loans.

[jman0war]

87. big pharma

Are they just taking current spending on all medical bills and then theoreotically billing the federal government?
Sorry but that's not the way it works, anywhere in the world.

We pay the highest amount for prescription drugs than any other developed nation.

Other countries use their national health service en bloc to bid for pharmeticulals and manage to command much much better pricing, sometimes a fraction of the price you find here.

[arcane1]

91. Funny how we seem to be the only country incapable of doing this n/t

[harun]

94. He should spend more, reduce the age of Social Security and along with free

tuition give a stipend to people going to college as well.

With minimum wage also add in minimum ownership.

The return on that spending to the economy and in taxes with be far greater than spending it on Military adventurism, which is where it would go otherwise.

[TexasBushwhacker]

96. FFS We already spend almost $4T a year for healthcare!

Sanders plan doesn't add to the current system, it replaces it! The wonderful system we have now with high premiums, high deductibles and millions still uninsured.

Before the ACA, we had tens of thousands of Americans dying prematurely because they didn't have health insurance. Dead people don't pay taxes and if they have surviving spouses and/or children they cost thousands per year in survivors benefits.

Lack of health insurance can cause disability too. Poorly managed diabetes can mean kidney and heart disease, blindness and amputation. If someone is so disabled they can't work, again, they don't pay taxes and will receive thousands of dollars in SSDI every year.

Sanders plan may cost more federal dollars initially, but the lives saved and the money saved long term more than covers it.

[Squinch]

101. If BS hadn't lost the primary so resoundingly, this would matter.

[Dont call me Shirley]

110. Eliminate the rich's war addiction which is equal to 18T and we can have all these programs.