Snowden calls for whistleblower shield after claims by new Pentagon source
Source: The Guardian
Edward Snowden has called for a complete overhaul of US whistleblower protections after a new source from deep inside the Pentagon came forward with a startling account of how the system became a trap for those seeking to expose wrongdoing.
The account of John Crane, a former senior Pentagon investigator, appears to undermine Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and other major establishment figures who argue that there were established routes for Snowden other than leaking to the media.
Crane, a longtime assistant inspector general at the Pentagon, has accused his old office of retaliating against a major surveillance whistleblower, Thomas Drake, in an episode that helps explain Snowdens 2013 National Security Agency disclosures. Not only did Pentagon officials provide Drakes name to criminal investigators, Crane told the Guardian, they destroyed documents relevant to his defence.
Snowden, responding to Cranes revelations, said he had tried to raise his concerns with colleagues, supervisors and lawyers and been told by all of them: Youre playing with fire.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/may/22/snowden-whistleblower-protections-john-crane
Well isn't this a fine kettle of fish. Why does it always seem to turn out the gov't is lying on these kinds of things - and Barack has been doubling down along with Hillary. How much corruption are we willing to put up with before shouting... enough!
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)Interesting to learn that it no longer applies.
askeptic
(478 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)while the law could use some beefing up to better protect real whistleblowers who report specific crimes and or fraud it wasnt a complete failure because Crane did not end up in jail probably because Crane unlike Snowden actually obeyed the law rather than just carelessly release everything he could get his hands on and then flee.
KPN
(15,673 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)KPN
(15,673 posts)He's already a martyr. .... But let's say he did. What do you suppose the outcome of that would be?
cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)KPN
(15,673 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)KPN
(15,673 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)that I never said nor implied that it was ok for the bankers to get off so light and in fact I already stated it was BS to let them off that lightly.
KPN
(15,673 posts)Snowden the same way they treated Wall Street if they chose to, but ... you know the rest of that story. In my view, Snowden is a hero. Can't say the same for the banksters.
cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)goes into a burning building for no pay to save someone elses kid, thats a hero.
KPN
(15,673 posts)I don't "want a hero". Snowden did something courageous in my view and is paying a price for it. If you don't think so, that's fine but that doesn't give you license to ridicule. That's bullshit. ... and frankly something that *******s do.
cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)Last edited Mon May 23, 2016, 06:32 PM - Edit history (1)
is still allowed and imo he has not done anything heroic on the other hand I wouldnt call him a traitor either like some would because I havent seen any proof that he exchanged the intel he had to another country for anything.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)That the investors and tax payers actually pay
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Dont call me Shirley
(10,998 posts)laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Even Bernie said Snowden must be punished.
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)This is an anti-whistleblower administration in general.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)being one - to no avail
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)First of all, why is a CONTRACTOR to the government given a Top Secret clearance? He has also more or less stated he took the position with the intent to reveal anything he could find.
He can keep his ass in Russia as far as I am concerned.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Snowden is a hero. We should build a statue to him on the Washington Mall.
Those who are OK with prosecuting whistleblowers who expose war crimes should feel right at home with Putin.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)who took a position where he made over a $250,000 year with the intent of outing everything he could find. Sorry, he is not a hero. I don't condone War Crimes, but I don't believe in fighting evil with evil.
There are and were proper channels to follow. He is scum.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)am I right?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)am I right?
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)because I know she has similar sentiments as you.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I am a Labor Democrat, daddy was a miner, grandpa was at Ludlow, my family were the italians Rockefeller lied to to get over here to mine his coal for free.
Hillary is corporate hack and Bernie isn't even a Democrat, until now that he wants to be President. Obama was no friend to Labor either.
I think Booze Allen Hamilton has no business in our government, and the line between government employee and Contractor is not to be blurred for many reasons.
I also find Snowden disgusting because he pulled his stunt after he made half a million dollars or more. Kind of like that model that came out against modeling, but not until she had made her millions and then age had finally caught up to her.
I am not into hypocrites, and Snowden is a big one.
askeptic
(478 posts)What evidence do you have to back it up?
Secondly, Snowden did not just do a dump, so you need to check your facts in that area as well.
Personally, I think the disclosure that the government was violating the Constitution against all of us is a big deal.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)He did NOT do this when he worked for the government. He waited until he got a nice Booze Allen salary that is much more than a U.S. Senator. Little chicken shit that he is.
askeptic
(478 posts)just your opinion.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)By the way, nice post count! I hope you don't "skip" any answers.
askeptic
(478 posts)you won't actually say it is his salary - in Oahu - you are referring to and not some supposed payoff as you continually insinuate.
I've been away for awhile so just getting to know who makes cogent arguments and those that won't or can't.
Yes, my post count is definitely an issue you should immediately deal with!
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)The point is, Snowden had many opportunities to be a whistleblower when he actually worked for the government as a CIA employee. Instead, he followed the money and did what he did after the fact. He chased the big contract FIRST, then he pulled his shit. He is not Patrick Henry.
askeptic
(478 posts)Last edited Sun May 22, 2016, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)
So Snowden goes off and gets this supposedly big fat salary job for the sole purpose of giving it up in order go live in exile in Russia for the entirely traitorous purpose of exposing 4th Amendment violations by the gov't? Yep, that sounds like the plan for the cushy life he always wanted.
Really? This is the rationalization you have settled on?
And this article exposes the lie about there being any whistleblower protections. If you know history you know that our "hero's" were rarely the people portrayed by the popular culture. It makes me wonder why the fervent need to put down Snowden.
Oh well.
Editing rather than adding a post --
I can't even fathom why you think "he waited" transfers some nefarious purpose other than working up the how to proceed and the courage to go through with it. Seems perfectly normal to me. I'd have to think real long and hard, knowing how whistleblowers are actually treated, and the prospect of having to leave my country.
You may have convinced yourself, but I don't think you are convincing anyone else with this line...
intersectionality
(106 posts)"He waited till he had a cushy job." And then doesn't follow through with the logical conclusion that... Oh yeah, he doesn't have that job anymore.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)He is no Patrick Henry. He could have done this anytime, but didn't...why?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)The man had an IQ of 150. There is a calculated reason he waited to do what he did. Unfortunately, I don't think it panned out for him and he wound up fleeing to Russia.
intersectionality
(106 posts)Are you crazy? Do you not know what we do to people we classify as criminals?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)then quit, take a job as a contractor, double your pay, and THEN decide to do something about it? FFS, that makes no sense. Why didn't he report it while working for the CIA?
intersectionality
(106 posts)Did you even read the wikipedia article or are you just randomly picking at things out of context? He was at Booz Allen for like 3 months - so "double your pay" at $13k/mo into an account that got frozen... umm.... what? please dear jesus read what you prescribe to others.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And why did he try to cut a deal with Brazil? Why did he out documents about NSA tactics in other countries? Why didn't he seek out a Congress member? Why did he release info about China? Germany?
Much of what he released pertains to foreign nations and has NOTHING to do with our Constitution . He even tried to use some of it to save his traitorous scrawny ass. Yeah, he is a regular Patrick Henry...
intersectionality
(106 posts)Chelsea manning
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)With the facts
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)How is it a crime...to expose a Smoking Gun on a racketeer?
How is what Snowden , Assange or what Manning did ...a crime
When they exposed assualts upon the Constitution, criminal conspiracy cover ups if..even... murders!
It is all hateful ...snide..banter...against someone else who is actually making a difference.
And I DO KNOW from experience
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,405 posts)There's a thread on it here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027848225
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)"Drake was a much higher ranking NSA official than Snowden", when the truth is, Snowden was NOT a government OFFICIAL. He was a CONTRACTOR to the NSA for Booze Allen and Hamilton.
Poor journalism. There is no reason to read the whole tedious piece if they do not even get the basics correct.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,405 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)burst your bubble?
muriel_volestrangler
(101,405 posts)So it's quite clear what they know, and tell the readers. It's truly pathetic to see a DUer refuse to read, on the grounds that they don't like the way one phrase is put. Your head is stuck firmly in the sand. You have no credibility if you consider that a valid reason.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)They called him an official, which, by law, he was not and could not be.
Guided journalism.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Ssshhhheeeessshhh
askeptic
(478 posts)What the real game is here?
I mean no matter how weak the argument is he stays with it until it is destroyed and then raises something else. Then he hones in on everything but the main grievance of the US Gov't and the 4th Amendment. Trivial crap like how the article is written, or that the exact word wasn't used. Makes you think maybe he is on these message boards to promote these weak lines of defense for the agency itself. Just sayin'
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)The goal is to destroy "the truth" - which is always an enemy of the damnation bent
Jeffersons Ghost
(15,235 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)I hate Trump. I'm not thrilled with Hillary but I'll vote for her if I have to.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Goid you call bullchit
Bad that you'll yield and go for her
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)He is a Hero!
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But glad you have a hero. P.T. Barnum is too.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Im living proof (so far) that following procedures
Isnt worth Jack Chit
Just sayin........
cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)things like fraud or other such things that the whistleblower laws are supposed to shield whistleblowers from then your defense of him would be 100% valid but he went beyond that and released specific information about the intelligence the US had gathered on foreign governments, thats a major no no and it and thats not something the whistleblower laws are written to allow.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Statues no..
..........Heroes Yes
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)It still stings
Hydra
(14,459 posts)Makes a lot more sense now that we are seeing the party leaders inviting Bushco into our tent openly.
We are Bushco now.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)And he's a pretty good president for a corporatist, that being all that can generally get that far.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Old Vet
(2,001 posts)Let him go back to china, or stay in Russia putting many people in danger with his revelations. I don't know how but there had to be a better way of leaking our countries secrets then giving them to the people who would do us serious harm.
askeptic
(478 posts)I'm an old 'Nam vet too, but ignoring new information doesn't help anyone.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)cstanleytech
(26,347 posts)evidence say along the lines of him exchanging any of the information he had for money from some of the varies governments and or exchanging any of it for safe passage when he was fleeing from being arrested.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)I dunno, where I come from, the definition of "Underground" just used to be different...
tom_kelly
(963 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)You got to hand it to the expansive, constant disinformation campaigns of the ruling elites: When you have people seriously considering themselves part of an oppositional "underground" while defending every excess of the MIC with a straight-face....
...well, let's just that kind of successful mind-fucking is precisely the point. Their point.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
vlakitti
(401 posts)Mr. Snowden has done a lot for this country by educating people and has gotten a lot of grief for his efforts.
He deserves much better. And no, he had no other options.
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)SusanCalvin
(6,592 posts)laserhaas
(7,805 posts)FairWinds
(1,717 posts)loudly denounce Ed Snowden, but have nothing to say
about Kissinger . .
Speaks volumes.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)He may become a Cabinet buddy
shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Why am I never surprised to see folks calling out those who speak truth to power as traitors? And all too often, they are veterans. Well trained I might add. The first thing (or one of them) taught in basic training is a soldier's obligation NOT to follow an illegal order. Easier said than done when on a battlefield. But when it comes to OPS and TOC orders etc. there's a general genuflection to the powers that be. I suppose that telling the truth about the My Lai massacre was inappropriate? And who the fuck gets the pleasure of stamping all this shit Top Secret? A bunch of go-along to get-along types. Unbelievable. The fact that Rumsfeld, or Cheney, or Wolfowitz gets to determine what is secret or top secret makes my skin crawl. And the suck-up Generals running the entire goddamned show are even worse. If the American public were to know the whole truth about the criminal activities (like the formation of the Office of Special Plans) leading up to the Iraq War and the absolute crimes against humanity we committed once we invaded that country, heads would roll. Of course, suppressing the truth is always the first defense. The way the military acts is much like the Catholic church hiding the rape of boys because it might be "harmful" to the institution. The DoD is possibly the thinnest skinned entity in our government, and there's no shortage of "patriotic" people to carry the torch. Watching a helicopter crew slaughter a group of Iraqis and sticking around to blast the folks that come to help them is something every American should be required to watch. Spent 2005 or OIF3 in Abu Ghraib prison and I can say with complete certainty that a vast majority of people have no friggin' clue what we were doing to the Iraqi population and nor do they care. And god forbid somebody tries to tell the truth. The pictures of torture that have been released are the Disney version of what America was doing to a group who had "committed" the egregious crime of living in a country we decided to invade. What in the hell did the people of Iraq ever do to the people of the United States?
kadaholo
(304 posts)...did the people of Iraq ever do to the people of the United States?" A question that will reverberate throughout the ages.
Thanks for your post!
jmowreader
(50,580 posts)He did the same thing that's pissing me off about Chelsea Manning: stole everything he could get his untrained little hands on and dumped it on the Internet.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)It's one of the basic facts of both stories.
shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)Why no outrage at the military committing crimes and covering them up with Top Secret classifications? Just because our military does something, doesn't make it right. And if it weren't for whistle blowers, we would never know the truth. I'll take the truth and a big black eye for the DoD over the suppression of war crimes any day of the week. Our oaths were to defend the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic - not to cover up the crimes and incompetencies of our leaders and agencies. How many of us know that white phosphorous and the new version of napalm were used in Iraq? Only those who dare to tell the truth give us a chance to know what is really going on. Do you honestly think the information that Manning or Snowden collected would have ever been released by the DoD or State Dept. or the CIA or NSA? I think not.
To defend the indefensible is a bit Nixonian - "you see, when the President does something, it's not a crime".
askeptic
(478 posts)...for the war crimes exposed by Manning. They're still covering it up, so there's no doubt that was the intent. Why else would it be "classified" or even with other classified material, when that itself is a clear violation of classification directives. I didn't know they used Napalm in Iraq, but I guess burning to death isn't a heck of a lot worse than being hit by 20mm's or just blown to pieces by a 500 lbr. I think cluster bombs are probably the nastiest of all - those ball bearings go everywhere.
shadowmayor
(1,325 posts)But I must take exception to the classification directives themselves. Again - who gets to stamp these things? Wolfowitz? Condi Rice? Cheney? Fuck them and the directives they sign.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Destroy the messenger and nobody will give a chit
Bout collateral damages
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)When I joined the Army in 1967 I was NOT taught this . .
"The first thing (or one of them) taught in basic training is a soldier's obligation NOT to follow an illegal order."
But I would like to know if it is taught now, and where . .
It would be good if it was . .
tazkcmo
(7,304 posts)Generally speaking, it's the difference between an order from an NCO (Must be lawful, can't order you to violate a law) vs one from an officer (direct and may violate a law like "Run that red light, soldier." but must not violate specific circumstances expressley laid out in the UCMJ.
http://www.justanswer.com/military-law/296q8-definition-lawful-order-ucmj-so.html
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)And in the Manning thread
It cant be considered breaking the law..when you are doing the dynamic to point out that those who swore an oath to protect the law...are the one's assualting the Constitution of the United States.
[br][hr][br]
§ U.S. Supreme Court case Cooper v Aaron §
No judge can assualt the Constitution of the United States ..without being in direct diametric opposition of the Oath sworn to protect it.
askeptic
(478 posts)And I mean that in the nicest possible way!
bvar22
(39,909 posts)I hope I would have as much courage as this man demonstrated under the same circumstances.
It would be so much easier to just keep your mouth shut, play the game,
draw your check, go home, and get lost in the TV or drink away your conscience if you have one. The majority of those who know about government wrong doing choose that easier, softer path.
Snowden chose the hard road.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Bad Dog
(2,025 posts)Some people only care about their country looking good. The last thing they want is the truth to come out.
It's not limited to America either, I remember talking to a work colleague about the Birmingham 6. (6 men falsely jailed for IRA bombs by an over zealous police force.) He thought they should stay in jail even if they were innocent.
laserhaas
(7,805 posts)Snowden is 'Spot On'!
Getting the story out in more than 169 outlets, in dozens of different ways..doesn't work....either.
Lawyers..federal agents and even judges...all either join the dark side.....or they don't go where angels fear to tread.
Because America only pays homage to winners...defined as those that suffer extremely...But get paid..in the end.
Like Erin Brokervich
And ALL Administrations know this....that they can use their media might to disparage..andbmost of America will be happy to pounce on a victims grave.
Nobody believes Assange, Snowden or Manning
Until the system has made sure they are destroyed
Even Bernie says Snowden must be punished
eilen
(4,950 posts)No one is 100%.
Fast Walker 52
(7,723 posts)laserhaas
(7,805 posts)For 15 years, with billions lost, law firms closed, dozens in jail, the big fish of Romney, Paul Traub, MNAT and Goldman Sachs
are all getting away Scot Free; because DOJ personnel are partners in the crimes.
Best- most succinct - online story, is "Romney Slapped Racketeering"; because I sued Mitt & Goldman Sachs, for Racketeering.
Problem is, the story makes the solid case against Mitt Romney/Goldman Sachs lawyer, Colm F. Connolly;
but then it guts its own investigative journalism, when it says "Mr. Haas alleges has ties to Mr. Romney"
Of course I ALLEGE - but the proof is out there, in the open, plain as the nose on anyone's face.
Mitt Romney (as MoveOrg did argue) lied about being "retroactive" retired Bain Capital, from August 2001, back to Feb 1999
And Colm Connolly was a Mitt Romney/Bain Capital/ Goldman Sachs MNAT.com law firm partner,
from 1999 until August 2, 2001.
Does NOT get to be any more Black & White - than that.
Here's the DOJ resume of Colm Connolly
When I reported this - to the Pubic Corruption Task Force - They SHUT IT DOWN
Hence, this argument of - going through proper channels
IS ALL BULLCHIT!
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)in his adopted fucking country before pointing a finger at us
classykaren
(769 posts)L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)24601
(3,966 posts)VPs are not in any Chain of Command for other than their personal and Senate Staffs.
But I would not claiming the Secretary of State responsible in any case. DoD falls under the President and Secretary of Defense without going through any other cabinet officers. Likewise, Justice is under the President and Attorney General. And the Director of National Intelligence, although not a cabinet officer, also is a direct report to the President.