The U.S. is still using floppy disks to run its nuclear program

[Calista241]

Source: CNN

Want to launch a nuclear missile? You'll need a floppy disk.

That's according to a new report by the U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO), which found that the Pentagon was still using 1970s-era computing systems that require "eight-inch floppy disks."

Such disks were already becoming obsolete by the end of that decade, being edged out by smaller, non-floppy 3.5 to 5.25-inch disks, before being almost completely replaced by the CD in the late 90s.

Except in Washington that is. The GAO report says that U.S. government departments spend upwards of $60 billion a year on operating and maintaining out-of-date technologies.

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/26/us/pentagon-floppy-disks-nuclear/

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CNN presents this as a bad thing, but there Is a giant positive.

Floppy systems are not connected to the Internet and are essentially un-hackable. If there's one system we don't want the design public and easily available for review by anyone who wants it, it's this one.

[knightmaar]

1. "Floppy systems are not connected to the Internet"?

Unless, of course, you put them in a computer that is connected to the Internet.
Which you could easily do.
And that makes them like every other reasonable storage technology.

The chief benefit for the military is that they don't have to test new systems.

The chief benefit for the rest of the world is that the medium decays relatively rapidly and they probably wouldn't be able to launch the missiles. If only everyone in the world had the same limitation.

[Lancero]

12. You're confusing the 8in disc systems with the much newer 3'1/2 systems.

The 8in systems predate a lot of the 'modern' internet infrastructure. 8in systems wouldn't be able to connect to the internet like you think.

What you're talking about 'might' be possible with the successor 5'1/4 systems, but for the 70s era 8in systems that the DoD is using? These systems are far to old to be connected to the internet.

[knightmaar]

15. I'm old enough to have actually used the 8 inch disks in high school

So, no, I'm not confusing them.

http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm

This guy describes how to make the cables so you can connect the 8" disk drives to a normal PC. At that point, you're just an Ethernet adapter away from the Internet. (Admittedly, it'll probably be a co-ax Ethernet adapter, but what the hell, you're in the military, I'm sure you could requisition one).

There's nothing special about "The Internet" that requires any kind of special hardware. If a PC or a Linux box can be cabled to your storage medium, I don't care if it's microfiche or reel-to-reel, it can be on the Internet.

[Lancero]

16. That's to connect a 8in drive to a modern computer system, not to connect a...

70's era computer system to the internet. (Note though, I am specifying internet, not networking. These system can be connected to a LAN, which is diffrient from simply 'connecting them to the net'.)

My point still stands.

In any event, he admits that such a jury rigging can, and likely will, be error-prone. So I highly doubt that anyone in the military would authorize this modification for use in any of their hardware, especially hardware that is controlling nukes.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. Good luck finding an 8bit NIC that isn't BNC token ring shit that most people don't

even know how to plug in.

Those old floppy drives don't use the modern floppy port cable, these are going to be old IBM XT line 8086 shit. Single channel PCI boards, etc. Old. Old old old.

And there's probably one company out there with a gold plated military contract to keep producing those damn disks too.

[sdfernando]

33. You don't even need an ethernet adapter

Just a computer with a UART chip and serial port connected to an acoustic coupler and a POTS line...of course you would still need a dial-up ISP.

[knightmaar]

34. Oh, it wouldn't be *trivial* ... :-)

But I'm pretty confident there's nothing intrinsic about 8" floppy drives that makes them non-Internet-capable.

ETA: Yeah, and I can totally set up a BBS at my house. You can dial in from your setup and I'll connect it to my LAN. Then, boom, the 8" floppy is on the Internet!

[Bernardo de La Paz]

21. You're logically & historically confused. Floppies 8 / 3.5 are storage devices, not network devices.

Any storage device, even paper tape or mercury echo baths, could be connected to a computer that also contains a network device.

I have two 8 inch floppy disks that I used new in 1979 and was still using in 1980 when I was sending email (albeit on a different computer).

The internet dates from 1973, basically, which actually predates floppy disks. I was on discussion forums (boards) in the early 1980s, via a workplace that was always on the net (not needing to dial up each time).

The internet is NOT the World Wide Web (a common mistake many people make), which dates from 1993 give or take a few months depending how you count it. The internet existed for about 20 years before the web.

A system could use ultramodern Blu Ray and post Blu Ray storage technology and still not be connected to the web.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. All true, but the bus is old.

They don't have the modern cable connector. They have the old bladed plug, like an old RLL hard drive. I don't remember the connector name, but it pre-dates the pin type IDE drive.

You'd have to go through some major hoops to get a card that would connect that thing to a modern Ethernet network.

Edit: See that bladed connector on the top back? That doesn't have a modern analog to the floppy port on a motherboard.

[tclambert]

37. Sometimes those systems had dial-up access.

You know, with like an acoustic modem where you put the handset from your landline phone into two little rubber cups and then your computer and some other computer could squeal at each other at I think it was 9600 bps. I doubt that our nuclear program would have allowed dial-up access to their computers. Security issues aside, data transfer rates were higher if you copied the data onto magnetic tapes and drove them over in your car.

Graphics were really primitive back then. Computer games were mostly text-based.

Ah, it takes me back. I still have some 3.5 inch disks around here somewhere. I think I got rid of all my 5 1/4 inch floppies. I don't recall having any 8 inch floppies for home use. I think they went away before PCs became a thing.

[Sunlei]

2. antiques.crazy how fucked up and OLD our infrastructure is, yet DOD can spend a billion a spy blimp

When Obama took office he had to get DOI off paper maps & Veterans had paper medical files, some several feet thick.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

22. Republicans specialize starving govt infrastructure while giving corp welfare to def contractors. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

27. n fairness, you really don't 'need' anything more than that to do the job.

[DURHAM D]

3. The SNL skit writes itself.

As I typed I realize I am smiling. I shouldn't be. This is nuts.

[jakeXT]

4. Never touch a running system.../nt

[Bernardo de La Paz]

23. Wisdom. (though even your point has limits) . nt

[eggplant]

31. Yep.

[James48]

5. It's not nuts.

Not all at.

The 8 inch disks contain the geographic targeting data of the specific targets that one wishes to program the missile warhead for.

No, none of the programming or launch computers are connected to the internet. No modems, no hard-wires- and therefore safe from being hacked.

You don't want WINDOWS 10 to pop up and self-install while you are trying to program a missile for someplace, now do you?

[MidwestTech]

7. LOL "Do you want to... upgrade?"

I can jsut see the modern wargames "Do you want to pla a......" 'PLEASE WAIT WHILE WINDOWS UPDATES!'

NO! I nede to launch the missiles now dammit!

or...

"NO I don't want viagra, or pay for the upgrade, jsut launch my fucking missiles!"

"What do you mean google maps can't find that location!?"

the jokes with modern equipment write themselves lol

[christx30]

14. Clippy comes up:

"it looks like you're trying to obliterate Pyongyang. Would you like some help with that?"

[MynameisBlarney]

17. "Dozens of hot, single women in YOUR area!"

Etc.

[MidwestTech]

6. I have some insider information as to why this is...

My dad was an EE for the government his entire career.
Basically before ray-gun when the government saw a technology they liked they bought it... ALL OF IT!
that way they had direct control over it's maintenance, secrets et all.

this is a very wise and secure thing to do.

If the government has it's own techs to maintain it's own equipment, and those techs tend to be loyal lifers, you end up with very good security. That means they own the schematics, the source code, everything!

Now consider the process of controlling the nuclear arsenal. and now consider how INsecure the government is BECAUSE of all those contractors they have constantly cycling through the system.

Honestly it makes sense to keep the equipment vintage. Actually two main reasons.
one: That old tech was very large and V E R Y "easy" to maintain and repair. If you had to replace a resister or what have you, the board it was on wasn't multi layered. It may not even have traces on the back of the unit. That makes repairs feasible even 40 years later!

Second, very few people outside of the military even understand that old tech anymore. in a funny kind of way it makes it unhackable by obsolescence.

Be honest, if I sat you down in front of an old IBM 8088 xt would you know what the hell to do?

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

10. Yes but I learned software from the inside

One of my projects my microprocessor course was to build a 4 bit micro using 7400 series ICs.
I learned 8080 and 6800 assembly. In the '80s I worked on systems that were still using core memory.

Many DoD systems run embedded code that involves no OS. It doesn't timeshare or multi-process.
It does only one thing and does exactly that.

Many types of mission and safety critical software development projects have, as a portion of their verification and validation phrase, the finding and removal of any code not exercised in the testing of the item's requirements.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. I'd know what to do, but yeah, security through obscurity is a valid layer.

Even asking questions about that gear to familiarize yourself with it could set off flags that warrant follow-up.

[Ellipsis]

8. Probably similar to the "Bernoulli Box" technology

Bernoulli Box’ and was a high-capacity magnetic disk storage system, using Bernoulli’s principle to pull a fast-spinning PET disk towards the read-write head, but keep it separated from it by a cushion of air to make the system crash-proof.


If it ain't broke don't fix it.

[IronLionZion]

9. There is security in simplicity

We all know it's not for a lack of funding or of new technology/research since DOD has more than enough of both.

Keeping old technology for the nuclear missile systems is a well thought out decision.

[jayfish]

11. As long as we have...

a reliable manufacturer of the media; I don't see the problem.

[LiberalArkie]

13. Nothing on a network but radio and phone. Just think now we can put it on the internet

with each silo having its own IP address. What could possibly go wrong with new upgraded network capable equipment.

[SmittynMo]

18. Deterioration?

How long do you think the data on the floppys will be readable? I know for a fact that after 7 years, data on a CD is questionable. Keep in mind the only protection for a 5.25 disc, is a cardboard envelope.

Now think about this. If some of these discs are 30 years old and damaged/deteriorated, how does one recreate another?

[James48]

19. "If some of these discs are 30 years old and damaged/deteriorated, how does one recreate another?"

Um... I could tell you-


but if I told you, then I would have to put you inside the silo and keep you there.

[SmittynMo]

20. I'm pretty sure

there are a limited supply of 5.25 diskette burners out there, if any. I barely remember them. And then, what about the media? I'm pretty sure they don't make them any more.

[w4rma]

36. I'm fine with this, too. It's a program never meant to actually be used, since it ends the world.

If the the launch orders are given and a few missiles don't get launched, I'm not going to cry over it, since I'll probably be dead along with most of the world.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

24. Active archiving. Passive archiving is for dodos and parchment. . . . nt

[Actor]

29. finally something useful comes out of this investigation

[Odin2005]

30. Many banks are still running ancient COBOL-based mainframes.

[tclambert]

38. If you've got billions of lines of code that you spent decades debugging, why try to replace it?

You know if you rewrite the programs in a more modern programming language, you'll have to redo a lot of that debugging.

In defense of COBOL, they have updated the compiler with new features to support structured programming and now object oriented programming. The big selling point of COBOL was always that it was based on English language rules. So anybody can read a COBOL program and get a pretty fair idea what it does. Thirty years from now, when people look at old Java and C++ programs, they may think they're looking at some secret spy code.

[eggplant]

32. As the joke goes...

The reason God was able to create the universe in only six days was because he didn't have an installed user base.

The problem with upgrading systems that require 100% up time is that you can't just shut them down and swap them out. Critical infrastructure is like a plane that never lands. Sure, we've figured out how to keep them restocked and refueled a long time ago. But it is pretty tough replacing an engine mid-flight.

[w4rma]

35. I'm perfectly fine with this. I'm perfectly fine with as little money as possible spent on upgrades

to any nuclear weapons program. One day, we should dismantle the entire thing, and upgrades would just be money wasted.

[jtuck004]

39. CONFIG.SYS

DEVICE=C OSSETVER.EXE
DEVICE=C OSHIMEM.SYS
DOS=HIGH
FILES=10
SHELL=C OSCOMMAND.COM C OS /p
READY TUBE 1
READY TUBE 2
READY TUBE 3
; LAUNCH.COM