Georgia ACLU director resigns over transgender fight

[AntiBank]

Source: Atlanta Journal-Constitution

The head of Georgia’s ACLU chapter opened a new rift in the debate over restroom rights this week when she stepped down in protest of the civil rights group’s support for controversial efforts to let transgender people use the restroom that matches their gender identity.

Maya Dillard Smith said Thursday she resigned because she was met with hostility when she questioned the organization’s stance on the policy, adding that she risked being branded a homophobe by even raising her critique. “There are real concerns about the safety of women and girls in regards to this bathroom debate,” Dillard Smith said in an interview. “It seems to me that instead of stifling the dialogue, we want to encourage a robust debate to come up with an effective solution.”

Many Georgia conservatives have aired similar concerns, but Dillard Smith adds a prominent liberal voice to the mix. She said she’s had misgivings about the bathroom debate since her young daughters shared a restroom in Oakland, Calif. with three transgender women with deep voices.

“My kids were visibly frightened. I was scared. And I was ill-prepared to answer their questions,” she said. “I’ve been asking those same questions, and now I want to raise an honest conversation about them.”

Read more: http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2016/06/02/georgia-aclu-director-resigns-over-transgender-fight/

[Liberalagogo]

1. Good riddance to bad rubbish

n/t

[dark forest]

3. Well,

crap

[Liberalagogo]

5. No idea what you mean by that.

n/t

[dark forest]

7. Just hate

wrong turns

[Liberalagogo]

8. you mean a wrong turn by this supoosed "liberal" woman?

Cuz, you'd be correct.

[BumRushDaShow]

2. And she headed up the local ACLU?

Really?

[AlbertCat]

4. My kids were visibly frightened. I was scared. And I was ill-prepared to answer their questions,”

Oh fer Christ sake....

What's to be scared of????

Questions? Here:

I thinks she's full of it. Deep voices! Yikes! I guess she was scared of Bea Arthur! How prepared do you need to be to tell a kid what "transgender" means? I wonder if they were just in drag.... not transgender. Any idiot knows the difference.... or should if they're the head of the state ACLU.

Besides the law being just the religious right freaking out for losing the gay battle, it's also a smoke screen for other dreadful, but not as spectacular legislation.

[yardwork]

29. Sounds like a made up story.

[secondwind]

42. Some "progressive"... progressive parents are never "ill prepared"

[Boudica the Lyoness]

6. Many women, especially ones who have been raped or assulted when they were girls,

are not comfortable sitting on a toilet, with a wide gap around the stall door, in plain view of strange men.

Triggers.

Maya has not only commonsense, she also has respect for women's right.

[Crash2Parties]

10. My young daughter is not a "man" or a "boy"

She is a girl. She has always been one, we just didn't find out until she was 3 yo.

So please, stop calling trans women & girls "men". It's the sort of over-the-top rhetoric that gets trans people beat up and killed.

[AntiBank]

11. speaking of over the top rhetoric

A transgender activist — a biological male who goes by the name Cheryl Courtney-Evans — responded to Dillard Smith’s resignation by calling her “lazy,” “ill-educated,” and a “b–ch” who needs to sit down and “STFU.”

[Humanist_Activist]

14. That's not over the top at all. Transphobe just got told.

There is no excuse for bigotry.

[AntiBank]

16. it's not only over the top but it's sexist as hell

Just because you are trans doesn't give you carte blanche to be a sexist ass.

[Humanist_Activist]

17. I would agree the b word is slightly over the top, but telling a bigot to sit down and shut up?

That should be expected.

[AntiBank]

18. I will agree with you, I just do not think trans people do their cause any good when they slide

into typical anti-female rhetoric.

[Humanist_Activist]

19. Its largely inconsequential, particularly to the larger culture, and not so much "anti-female" as...

very sloppy in using misogynistic terms.

But, and this is the sad truth, but the b-word does not carry the same stigma as the n-word. Its still used quite liberally(pardon the pun) in the larger culture, even by women.

[Behind the Aegis]

20. "Its still used quite liberally(pardon the pun) in the larger culture, even by women."

And that is the case in the example provided.

[Humanist_Activist]

21. Precisely, and why its inconsequential.

I absolutely hate this redefining of women's rights to exclude Transwomen. People need to get that TERF shit off this board.

[Behind the Aegis]

22. "People need to get that TERF shit off this board."

THANK YOU!!!!!



THANK YOU!!!

[Humanist_Activist]

23. Its just really aggravating and just insane, protect the privacy of, I guess in their heads...

"real women" by doing a fucking genital check? Seriously what the fuck is the argument here? Its not practical, not enforceable in a non-offensive way, its a bigoted policy, and this bigotry extends to every non-gender conforming individual out there.

There are plenty of people out there, cis-gendered or not, who do not have the "right" look that conforms to their gender, or are completely androgynous in appearance. And you know what, that shouldn't fucking matter when they go into the bathroom of the gender they identify with. I frankly don't give a shit, I go in there to do two things, take a quick piss, or a quick dump, and in both cases, I'm in and out as quickly as possible and avoid eye contact with anyone else in there with me. lol

[Behind the Aegis]

120. And once again, I must say "THANK YOU!"

THANK YOU!



You know why!

[Humanist_Activist]

123. All I did was bring it to Skinner's attention, tried to alert, then alerted on the failed alert...

3-4 to let it stand, a post saying those who transition are mutilating themselves. Completely and utterly unacceptable. Frankly I'm surprised he acted so swiftly, whether it was my post, alert and ATA post that did it, don't know for sure, but I've been pissing in the wind for so long, I'm surprised this didn't blow back onto me. lol

I was *this close* to creating yet another call out post, but I thought this time, I'd follow the rules, and holy shit, it worked!

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. Nice to see that you're getting your quotes from bigoted right-wing sites, I guess?

I don't think that we can trust the veracity of something coming from a site that juxtaposes "transgender activist" and "biological male", since the only people I've seen using that language are transphobic bigots.

[AntiBank]

31. sorry, I just pasted it from this site, its an Italian/English site and I meant no insult or harm

http://solonews.net/410122/news/aclu-leader-quits-over-transgender-bathroom-rights-flap.html

my beef was over the trans person calling the other woman a bitch

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Your priorities are misplaced.

This ACLU person is a terrible bigot, good fucking riddance, if a trans woman calls her a bitch, that's too bad (you are aware that trans women aren't men, yes?)

[AntiBank]

33. I was the one to post this whole article in the first place, to point out transphobia in an

unexpected place. Please don't come smacking me about for some projected agenda. And yes, MTF trans are woman, and neither women nor men do anything good by calling a female a bitch, as that is fundamental misogyny.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Depends on who's saying it

and being called a bitch is a lot less bad than being called a potential sexual predator? "I'm against trans women using women's toilets because rape"? I am not at all surprised that the response that gets from some trans women is "wow, you're a stupid bitch". (Maybe you should email Ms Courtney-Evans and demand that she use non-gendered insults?)

[AntiBank]

43. she has a blog, it even has bitch in name so I don't

fancy my chances.

[Crash2Parties]

121. I don't use the term out of principal, but I hear other women call women that somewhat frequently.

Sorta like the N-word. We can use it but men can't. And so, if you are saying the trans woman can't use it, perhaps you should check your own (trans)misogyny.

[Spider Jerusalem]

122. I'm not the one saying that (quite the opposite, in fact)

[Crash2Parties]

124. Meh. Women do call each other that.

For better or worse. If you are going to say trans women can't, well, that's a pretty good example of trans-misogyny.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

34. Are you concerned about the long term effects of the drugs your child will need to ingest

To continue down the path of modifying the body to match the brain?

Cancer, heart disease, shortened life span...and who knows what else. The only organizations providing the research are the groups who will make money off of your child's decision. Progressives balked when the tobacco industry provided the research for the long term effects of smoking. We discount when the oil and gas industry does climate change denial research. But somehow it's ok to go with the research from the companies and doctors (like WPATH), who'll make a lot of money off of a lifetime of hormones or testosterone that kids struggling with gender will have to continuously purchase when they choose this path.

It's a lifetime commitment to change one's body to match one's brain. How I wish we lived in a world where it wouldn't matter what or who you wanted to play with as a small child, or which colors you gravitated toward or how long you wanted to wear your hair or whether you liked skirts or pants, whether you wanted to kiss a boy or a girl. Do it. Live it. Don't mutilated your body because of that.

I don't know your child's age of course, but I ache for those gnc teenage kids making decisions that would render them sterile by choice...heck we think they're too young to vote, too young to drive, too young to drink...

I wish your family great peace. I truly, truly do.

[Spider Jerusalem]

36. Hi, you're kind of shockingly ignorant

fun fact, a male to female trans person will have a longer lifespan than they would if they hadn't transitioned. Ask Jan Morris about that shorter lifespan (she's going to be 90, this year). Roberta Cowell lived to be 93. You should learn what the fuck you're talking about, really.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

37. You do realize that one person living a long life

Is called anecdotal, not research.

It's amazes me how quickly your side of debate goes to hostile and cursing. If you don't think a lifetime of hormones or testosterone has any negative effect on ones body well good on you

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Have some research:

CHICAGO — Cross-sex hormone treatment of transgender adults leads to very few long-term side effects, according to the authors of the largest study to date to examine this issue.

More than 2000 patients from 15 US and European centers participated in the retrospective study, called Comorbidity and Side Effects of Cross-Sex Hormone Treatment in Transsexual Subjects, and nearly 1600 received at least 1 year of follow-up, the authors reported.

"Our results are very reassuring," principal investigator Henk Asscheman, MD, PhD, who heads HAJAP, his clinical research company in Amsterdam, the Netherlands, told Medscape Medical News. "There are mostly minor side effects and no new [adverse events] observed in this large population."

Speaking at ICE/ENDO 2014 last week, where he presented the initial results of the research, Dr. Asscheman said the data confirm findings from smaller studies published in the past decade.

"The take-home message," he said, "is that when using the guidelines from the Endocrine Society ["Endocrine Treatment of Transsexual Persons"], you are not going to see a lot of comorbidities with cross-sex hormone treatment."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/827713

[Crash2Parties]

126. No, because I read. I learn. I talk to researchers and doctors.

Would you also tell a diabetic that she shouldn't commit to a lifetime of insulin injections?

Also, by far most of the research into the subject has been done outside the realm of pharma. It's primarily been neurology, developmental biology, genetics and endocrinology. That last one is where the pharma comes in but guess what? Estrogen has been off-patent for decades. There's no money to be made on it, which is why there are shortages when factories are deemed more profitable making some newer drug.

what or who you wanted to play with as a small child, or which colors you gravitated toward or how long you wanted to wear your hair or whether you liked skirts or pants, whether you wanted to kiss a boy or a girl.

Those have nothing to do with it. There are gay and straight trans people. There are both femme and butch transwomen - and both butch and femme trans men, exist too!

Just like everyone else.

So please, you owe it to yourself to read up on the biology and the medical aspects beyond whatever sources you've been depending on. Hormone therapy has been shown to be safe and effective, and not by some mysterious "industry shills".

Thank you and I hope you find peace as well. Because the world is changing. But trans people are not a threat to anyone else in the rainbow.

[passiveporcupine]

12. transgenders don't go around raping women.

It's not a risk. I was assaulted and raped as a girl and I wouldn't give it a second thought. I would not feel endangered.

I've also never seen a big gap around doors that you could actually see anything through other than a little motion. Unless you stood with your eye glued to the crack.

I don't think transgender women are interested in looking at other women on a toilet.

Being gay, transgender, or straight does not make you a pervert.

[cynzke]

26. AND, IN THE EYES OF THE LAW....

The law doesn't care if your gay, transgender or straight as long as you obey the law. You only become a pervert (sex offender) by committing a crime considered a sex crime. The designation of those vary by state and local ordinances. And "intention" to commit a crime (while in the bathroom) is itself in many states, grounds for arrest. Oddly enough, most state laws do not contain specific laws/language that says it is illegal to enter a restroom opposite one's gender(up until states like NC). Therefore, you do not break the law if you enter a restroom OPPOSITE your gender just by merely crossing the threshold, it is your intention for doing so and what you do when you get there that gets you arrested. If your intention is to harm your bathroom buddies in some manner, it doesn't matter which bathroom you use, you are committing a crime. That is when the law takes effect. And this is why the claim that allowing transgender people to choose the bathrooms they feel comfortable in, is a legal green light for straight men to CLAIM they are transgender in order to enter a women's room or locker room IS ABSURDLY FALSE. If these straight men are entering to oogle/harrass or cause harm to any woman or child, THAT IS, HAS BEEN AND WILL ALWAYS BE ILLEGAL.

[yardwork]

28. The Democratic Attorney General of NC pointed that out.

The Republicans who took over NC won't listen, intent on being bigots as they drive my state off a cliff.

I hope Roy Cooper is our new governor.

[Humanist_Activist]

13. What the fuck type of stalls are you using? And how does this relate to transwomen...

using the same bathrooms?

Seriously, Transwomen are women too, they have the same right to that bathroom as you do.

Don't use whatever malfunction or hangup you have as an excuse for your transphobia.

[happyslug]

127. You do realise some restrooms do not have stalls?

The restrooms in my old National Guard armory had no stalls, just toilets, urinals and sinks. It was built in the early 1970s. Nothing seperated you from someone using the toilet next to you. Thus was apparently done to fit more toilets into the restroom. Thus in some restrooms you can see other people's private parts.

I mention this for you are assuming all toilets are in stalls, and I am just pointing that is NOT always the situation.

[LeftyMom]

24. Trans women aren't "strange men"

Educate yourself.

[oberliner]

48. But what if a cis-male chose to use those facilities for inappropriate reasons

Legally, “individuals cannot be asked to show identification, medical documentation or any other form of proof or verification of gender” and that anybody “who abuses this policy to assault, harass, intimidate, or otherwise interfere with an individual’s rights” can be prosecuted.

Couldn't an unsavory male take advantage of that circumstances? How could they be legally prevented from doing so?

[Humanist_Activist]

61. Because they would be acting inappropriately in the bathroom? Is this rocket science to you...

or something? Its illegal to harass, sexually assault, intimidate, and act lewdly in public bathrooms now, you don't need a law that ultimately will require a genital check at the door to make sure its enforced.

[oberliner]

81. The man in the Time Magazine story was not acting inappropriately

He was just taking a shower, as any person normally would. He just happened to be using the female locker room to do so. There was no harassment, intimidation or lewd behavior of any kind.

The girls on the swim team (who were minors) who had gone into that room to change and shower after practice were just uncomfortable because an adult male (who presented as male, according to the article) was using those facilities.

Could or should there be any recourse for a situation like that?

[Humanist_Activist]

86. If he presents as male and identifies as male, then that would be the recourse...

can't fault the law for the ignorance of the people who should be enforcing it from failing to enforce it.

In addition, what about those who appear androgynous? Should they just avoid all public restrooms and show facilities?

[oberliner]

90. There is no rule that a person must look a certain way to use a certain restroom.

From Lamdba Legal:

A: There is no rule that a person must look a certain way to use a certain restroom. This kind of “gender policing” is harmful to everyone, whether a transgender person, a butch woman, an effeminate man or anyone dressed or groomed in a way that doesn’t conform to someone else’s gender standards. Moreover, courts have increasingly found that discrimination against transgender people is sex discrimination.

For instance, in Mathis v. Fountain-Fort Carson School District 8, Colorado’s Division of Civil Rights found that denying a transgender girl access to the women’s restroom at school was discrimination. They reasoned, “By not permitting the [student] to use the restroom with which she identities, as non-transgender students are permitted to do, the (school) treated the (student) less favorably than other students seeking the same service.” Furthermore, the court rejected the school’s defense—that the discriminatory policy was implemented to protect the transgender student from harassment—and observed that transgender students are in fact safest when a school does not single them out as different. Based on this finding, it is no longer acceptable to institute different kinds of bathroom rules for transgender and cisgender people.

http://www.lambdalegal.org/know-your-rights/transgender/restroom-faq

Without question, transgender people ought to be able to use the restroom with which they identify.

I am just suggesting that there ought to be a way to prevent cis-males from taking advantage of this for nefarious purposes. It is not clear how this can be accomplished, assuming the cis-male in question is not harassing anyone or behaving in a lewd manner.

[Humanist_Activist]

94. The issue is that the nefarious purposes would be, most of the time, illegal...

if they are in there to harass, assault or stalk others, those are against the law. Not sure what other "nefarious" purposes you are talking about.

[oberliner]

97. Many adult males would like to be able to be present in a female locker room

Numerous movies throughout the 1980s and 90s have been predicated on this premise.

The nefarious purpose would be to see females in various states of undress. That would not require any harassing, assaulting, or stalking. One would simply need to do one's locker room business and casually glance around as others are also changing.

[Humanist_Activist]

102. There's no way to control for that, that argument would also apply...

To cisgender gays and bisexuals in similar circumstances.

Perhaps everyone should be blindfolded, or have only private stalls, if practical. But, and this is key, this argument was used to support DADT as well.

[oberliner]

110. Fair enough

Again, I am not making any argument against transgender individuals using the bathroom that conforms to their gender identity. I am just wondering if there is a way to prevent cis-males with nefarious purposes from taking advantage of the situation. Perhaps no such means of doing so exist. Or perhaps there is a potential solution that could be worth considering that does not violate anyone's rights. I just can't figure out what that would be.

[Humanist_Activist]

111. Why focus on just cisgender males? n/t

[oberliner]

113. That's what the Time Magazine article was about

It went into detail about that particular circumstance, so I was sharing my thoughts on that situation.

[Humanist_Activist]

115. Is the issue any different if it were a cisgender lesbian or bisexual?

Granted such people aren't noticable, so it really does come down to appearances.

[passiveporcupine]

101. I have a suggestion for recourse

Raise our children to not be such prudes about sexuality and nudity...to not follow in the footsteps of their parents.

We are an unbelievably prudish country with all kinds of sick ideas about sex, nudity, and morality, based on religion.

Some of the responses in this thread freak me out.

I grew up as repressed as everyone else (maybe more so), and my Mom could not even talk to my sisters and I about sex. She couldn't even talk to us about getting pregnant out of wedlock (which she did with my little sister). Sex was just taboo in our house. And I was molested by my step-father and never felt safe going to Mom and telling her what was going on and it ruined our family dynamics and my relationship with my Mom. She finally kicked me out at 18 because I was so "angry" all the time. I told her later in life and we worked out our issues pretty much, but she still, till the day she died, could not face talking about bodily things like sexuality.

As an adult I forced myself to confront my issues with nudity and sex, and I even had the courage at one point to go on a camping trip with my then boyfriend and his friends to a nudist hot springs in the mountains in Colorado (it was a very cool place). I got naked in front of stangers in broad daylight, and it was both intimidating, embarrassing, but also freeing. I wish to hell we could get over this hangup.

[yardwork]

27. Many trans women are the victims of rape and assault. Don't their feelings matter?

Trans people are much more likely to have been raped and assaulted than cis people. Forcing trans people to use the bathroom that might match their genitals - but not their gender identities - puts trans people at real risk for assault, rape, or murder.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

38. Data? link?

More women and girls have been raped in this world than trans folks.

[Humanist_Activist]

63. Here you go...

http://www.ovc.gov/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

[yardwork]

73. That's because there are many fewer trans people. But they are at much higher risk.

As I stated, trans people are much more likely to be victims of assault than cis people.

I hope you aren't suggesting that their rights don't matter just because there are fewer of them?

[HillareeeHillaraah]

84. I'm not suggesting that at all.

As you certainly would see in the words I am typing.

You're certainly not suggesting that the women and girls who've experience acts of violence don't matter because they are a mere percentage of a much larger population.

More natal girls and natal women have been victims of rape and assault than have trans folks.

I stand by that statement as a means of putting the violence against women and girls that does occur in this world on a daily basis into numerical perspective.

A conversation addressing safety for all should not be banned or discouraged. A fair solution, that's all I'm advocating ~

[Humanist_Activist]

88. So wait, half of all cisgender women and girls have been victims of sexual assault?

Do you have proof of this?

[yardwork]

103. Trans people don't put women and girls at risk. Period.

There are no cases of trans people attacking women or girls in bathrooms. None.

Trans people aren't the problem.

[Behind the Aegis]

119. In case you haven't heard...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=330157&sub=trans

[yardwork]

125. That made my night! Thanks for letting me know.

[Crash2Parties]

9. Missing piece of the puzzle

I find it interesting that the media doesn't report that in April of 2015, shortly before leaving Oakland to take the interim ACLU director position, she and her daughters were baptized Catholic. Considering the Church's stance on issues like women's equality, LGBT equality and the way their hospitals promote making medical decisions based on dogma rather than best medical practices as per the American Bishops, - oh and that the Church calls transgender people a threat to humanity equal to nuclear weapons - I don't consider her a "liberal" at all.

It's a crucial fact that's missing and explains much, as it would pit her religious beliefs against transgender people's equal access to public accommodations.

http://stcolumba-oak.com/bulletins/20150405.pdf

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Good. Glad the bigot stepped down.

Those like her have convinced themselves they aren't bigots, yet they are nothing but.

[oberliner]

47. Here's the one issue that seems problematic to me

It relates to the Time Magazine article referenced down thread.

Someone who is a man (identifies as a man, presents as a man, is not transgender) can use a female locker room with open showers for inappropriate reasons (i.e. to watch females shower), and legally that man cannot be asked to leave the bathroom (assuming he simply uses the shower like anyone else) since asking someone to prove their gender identity is, by law, discriminatory and not legal.

In fact, in the Time Magazine story, which references a situation in NYC where a man reportedly did exactly that, there was a sign saying “individuals cannot be asked to show identification, medical documentation or any other form of proof or verification of gender” and that anybody “who abuses this policy to assault, harass, intimidate, or otherwise interfere with an individual’s rights” can be prosecuted.

So, what, if anything, can be done under those circumstances to prevent a man from attempting to take advantage of this situation?

[yardwork]

75. That is incorrect. Laws against harassing people still stand.

Until NC passed their law, it was never illegal for the "wrong" sex to be in a bathroom. It is always illegal for anybody to harrass or assault people.

[oberliner]

83. There was no harassment

Just a cis-male using the female lockers. According to the article he was not harassing or assaulting people. He was just doing normal locker room business with a towel around his waist as the girls on the swim team in question entered to change and shower.

[yardwork]

104. That sounds like harassment to me. He should have been told to leave.

This has nothing to do with trans people using locker rooms.

[oberliner]

107. The article indicates that staff felt they couldn't ask him to leave

Due to the directive about not being able to ask people for proof of their gender identity. That's how the situation relates to trans people using locker rooms. This person was apparently not a trans person but in order to ascertain that, the staff felt they would be in violation of the law. Note that a trans person was interviewed in the article and expressed concern with the situation as well.

[Behind the Aegis]

78. And the problem?

You said: "Someone who is a man (identifies as a man, presents as a man, is not transgender)" and then "since asking someone to prove their gender identity is, by law, discriminatory and not legal."

One isn't required to "prove" anything in that situation. If an employee asks, "Are you female?" and he answers "No." then he is in the wrong bathroom. From what I gathered, they didn't even ask him. If he answers, "Yes" but there appears to be a problem the person is lying, then the law will need to be corrected in a way which will address those type of situations, how ever rare, because, it appears it is the rare cases which have too many people cowering in fearmongering.

What I find troubling, is the TERF mentality and use of "natal" by people pointing out exceptions, not what is actually happening (not referencing you). There will always be ways to get around laws, some legal, some not. It is the legal ways, loopholes, which need to be addressed, but the rights of the many don't need to trump the rights of the few.

[oberliner]

85. The problem is that there is no recourse to remove a cis-male from a female locker room

Presuming that the male is simply going about normal locker room business and not harassing anyone in any way, there would be no way to ask him those questions without being in violation of the posted instructions.

It just seems like this is something worth addressing.

[AlbertCat]

99. situation in NYC where a man reportedly did exactly that,

Was it a state owned facility?

If it was private, then whoever runs the locker room can make rules for their facilities. No?

And of course no one has to undress as long as the jerk is there. Is not sitting around waiting for young girls to undress a type of harassment?

[oberliner]

100. The facility was under the jurisdiction of the NYC Parks Department

They said, in a statement, that they followed the relevant NYC laws on the subject.

In terms of changing/showering somewhere else, one of the parents indicated that the only other option was a family restroom that only had a single shower head (there were 18 girls who needed to shower).

[sendero]

30. To apply the ...

... "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" (which I 100% agree with) analogy, someone is "worried" about who goes into what restroom?

Trust me anyone out to molest a kid or somesuch doesn't care about piddly "which restroom" laws, period and end of story.

[Odin2005]

40. $100 says she's a TERFer.

Fuck her.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

53. TERF is a harmful hurtful slur

in fact that's precisely how you're using it. Stop. Don't bring that hate here. People are discussing a complex issue.

Let a conversation happen.

[Chan790]

54. I once knew...

a white-supremacist that felt that "Klannie" was a slur thrown about by "ni**er-lovers."

Can you deduce the point I'm making?

Also, there is no right of equality for bigoted opinions in the public square and no necessity for any hearer of them to consider them to have conversational, intellectual or rational merit. We have no obligation to let such a conversation happen.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

55. So to hell with finding a solution...

...or hearing rational concerns of safety as relates the non-trans element sneaking in under the trans umbrella.

You want what you want when you want it. The opinions and concerns of women and girls be damned.

Got it. So progressive.

BTW, It would be bigoted if I followed with something like "and I don't like trans people"

I have not.

[Humanist_Activist]

64. A solution to what? Its a fucking made up problem brought about by transphobes...

Transgender people are the next acceptable target, if you aren't helping to defend them, you are part of that problem. Not to mention you do NOT stand for that avatar you choose to carry on this board. Its an insult to both Hillary and the LGBT community.

[cyberswede]

89. The poster you're replying to is no longer here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=330157&sub=trans

[passiveporcupine]

105. Thank you Skinner!

[Odin2005]

59. TERFers are hateful, harmful, hurtful people.

Fuck them, they don't deserve a "conversation", they deserve derision, scorn, and shaming for being the trans-phobic bigots they are.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

60. Yet another open minded progressive

Who angrily dismisses the quiet concerns of girls and women.

Natal girls and women's safety doesn't matter. Their voices must not be heard.

This is progressive?

Disagreeing doesn't make one a bigot. Disagreeing and wishing harm toward an opposing view certain seems to be bigoted though.

Why do you wish harm toward natal women and girls? Or do you just wish harm to anyone who disagrees with you?

[Humanist_Activist]

65. If you disagree on something as fundamental as equal treatment, fuck yes that's bigoted! n/t

[HillareeeHillaraah]

69. It's more complex than equal treatment

Of course I believe in fair and equal treatment for all.

But what about the concerns of natal girls and women?

Don't their concerns matter as well?

Transferring the vulnerability felt by trans folks onto natal girls and women is not a fair and equal solution.

[Humanist_Activist]

70. What concerns? What problems? Has there been a dramatic increase in sexual assaults in bathrooms...

due to the passage of bills that protect transgender people?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/sexual-assault-domestic-violence-organizations-debunk-bathroom-predator/story?id=38604019

Transgender people are more vulnerable in bathrooms than cisgender people, whether male or female.

[Odin2005]

117. Trans-women are women, too.

Have you heard of ANY trans-woman, any, who has sexually assaulted other women? I haven't. You are spewing bigoted stereotypes portraying trans people as pedophiles and sexual deviants. You sound like every other histrionic authoritarian using "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!" as an excuse for BS.

[Spider Jerusalem]

118. No, it isn't! Fun fact, the only people who complain it's a slur...

are trans-exclusionary radical feminists. So thanks for outing yourself as a bigot!

[cynzke]

41. The Problem Is Not Transgender People....

The problem is the way laws are written. I read a Time Magazine article about a girl's swim team in New York who were afraid to use the woman's locker room because it was opened to transgenders. It was not that these girls were afraid of transgender people, what they were afraid of was men posing as transgender. There was a report of a bald man with heavy beard and mustache showering in the woman's locker room and the attendants interviewed for the TM article told the reporter, they knew about this man but the law tied their hands. They supposedly can not confront the man and force him to prove he has a legal excuse (transgender) for being there. To question his gender status is considered discrimination. So is this man actually transgender or is he merely taking advantage so he can shower/share a locker room with naked women? Seems that these laws need adjustments that address these loose ends. This seems to be the case when laws are written. They are too generalized and sometimes cause more problems than they solve. But we end up butting heads when we should put our heads together and find ways to solve problems and protect everyone.

[philosslayer]

44. Thats actually correct

You can't question someone on their gender identity. That is private and up to them, and them alone to decide.

[milestogo]

45. Agreed. The problem is that predators could take advantage of the law

to enter women's bathrooms. And that is a very scary thought - to have a rapist enter the women's room while you are sitting on the toilet with your privates exposed.

Or maybe I am just a predatorphobe.

[oberliner]

46. I think this is the article you mean

Even in Liberal Communities, Transgender Bathroom Laws Worry Parents

Girls from a swim team in New York City’s Upper West Side are too scared to use the women’s locker room at a Parks Department swimming pool. In March, a sign appeared noting that everyone has the the right to use the restroom or locker room consistent with their “gender identity or gender expression.” Around the same time, the girls, who range in age from about seven to 18, became concerned after they saw a “bearded individual” in the women’s changing room.

They are now using the family changing room to change in and out of their swimsuits, but it is not big enough for all 18 girls.

The complexity of this situation reveals some of the struggles that public institutions are facing as they implement policies that aim to ensure the rights of transgender individuals. And now these issues are about to go national. On May 13, the Obama administration warned public schools that they must allow transgender students to use the bathrooms and locker rooms of the gender with which they identify.

Even in states that have had more progressive gender identity policies in place for a while, like New York, unforeseen headaches have arisen. Not all restrooms are alike. A bathroom with individual stalls that offer some privacy, for example, is different from a locker room or changing room. A locker room in a school is different from a changing room in a public facility such as a recreation center or local pool, which people of all ages use at the same time.

http://time.com/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents/

It goes on to identify this situation:

According to one mother of a swim team member, Ellen Vandevort, her daughter was just leaving the locker room in late April when a person who was bald, with heavy stubble and a towel at waist level, stepped out of the shower. Her daughter and the younger girls on the team, says Vandevort, grew alarmed and reported it to the swim coach who suggested that the girls change in the family shower room.

An employee at the center who spoke on condition of anonymity says the individual using the locker room appears to present as a man—wearing swim shorts or trunks to swim, with sideburns going down into a beard—which is partly what alarms the girls and their parents. Staff members have also been warned that asking individuals to prove their gender identity would be discriminatory. “Our hands are tied,” the worker said.”We can’t say anything about it.”

The sign posted outside the locker room in March that affirmed the right of anyone to use the facility that corresponds with their gender identity also noted that “individuals cannot be asked to show identification, medical documentation or any other form of proof or verification of gender” and that anybody “who abuses this policy to assault, harass, intimidate, or otherwise interfere with an individual’s rights” can be prosecuted.

That does seem problematic, doesn't it?

[yardwork]

77. That person is not identifying as transgender.

This is nonsense. The man should be told to leave the women's room. This is a smokescreen.

[oberliner]

82. That is exactly the point

He is not identifying as transgender, but the staff at the facility were instructed with the following directions: “individuals cannot be asked to show identification, medical documentation or any other form of proof or verification of gender” and that anybody “who abuses this policy to assault, harass, intimidate, or otherwise interfere with an individual’s rights” can be prosecuted.

How would they be able to remove that person without violating those instructions?

[Humanist_Activist]

87. Uhm, its right there in the rules, they can't ask for proof, they can ask if they are transgender.

Seems obvious. What is the issue again?

[oberliner]

91. The person can say they are transgender

Presumably, if a cis-male is using the female locker room for nefarious purposes they would have no compunction about lying about their gender identity.

[Humanist_Activist]

92. In that case, there is no issue. If they aren't acting inappropriately, then no problems.

What do you want done? Should all people who don't stereotypically fit the look of their identified gender be banned from shower and locker rooms, along with public restrooms? I knew a woman who had bad ovarian cysts, and the hormonal treatment gave her a 5 o'clock shadow every day. She tried to hide it with makeup, but honestly, she could have passed for a hormonal male teenager if she dressed even slightly tomboyish.

[oberliner]

95. In the Time Mag story, the girls felt uncomfortable changing in a locker room with an adult male

That seems like a reasonable concern.

Let's take it as a given that we both agree that everyone should be able to use whatever locker or bathroom that they feel fits their own gender identity.

Would you agree that adult cis-males ought not to use the same changing rooms as teen girls, and that said girls would have the right to feel uncomfortable with such a scenario?

[Humanist_Activist]

96. People can't control other people's feelings, there are all sorts of situations where people...

are uncomfortable around others, and its on them to deal with it.

Not to mention the showers should have some private stalls to change in, if they are that uncomfortable.

[oberliner]

98. OK

I just realized we are going back and forth on two different subthreads, so I'll simply continue our discussion on that other subthread if you are still interested in doing so.

I appreciate your taking the time to discuss these questions in such a courteous manner and hope that you take them in the spirit that they are intended (which is in no way to denigrate the absolute rights of transgender individuals to use the bathroom of their gender identity).

[passiveporcupine]

109. You have no proof he was a cis male

but even if he was, if he was not doing anything to "frighten" the girl, like watching them undress or acting creepy or aggressive, I don't see the problem.

We need to come into the present time and stop this foolishness with fear of nudity and sexual inhibitions.

There are other countries where for generations, men and women have shared public baths.

If you go to a nudist beach here, are you afraid of being molested or raped? No...people who go there are just free of the hang-ups that most of us have grown up with in the US.

It's time to stop raising our children to be prudes.

Yes, you need to teach your children to be alert to anyone who might be a rapist or sexual predator, pedophile, or even just a flasher.

But people who are not acting that way, are not the problem. Our repressive culture is a lot of the problem.

[oberliner]

112. That's true

But the article indicated that he presented as male, so it is certainly possible that he was a cis male. I think it is reasonable for a girl to not want to change in front of an adult male, even if they aren't doing anything to frighten them. Some girls might be comfortable with that, as you describe, but others may not, and I think their discomfort also ought to at least be considered.

[passiveporcupine]

114. He wore male swim trunks and had a beard

Maybe he/she wore male swim trunks in public to hide an obvious presence of male genitalia.

He/she did not have a beard. He/she had heavy stubble. Maybe he/she hadn't shaved for a couple of days.

Neither of those things make he/she a probably CIS.

Their discomfort might just be a teachable moment. But for as long as this country is so full of prudes about sexuality and nudity, there are ways that this can be dealt with that do not discriminate against trans people, like setting apart a time in which the locker room is only accessible to the young swim team for use, no adults can enter (except maybe their coach or center employee, if a woman).

The Time article covered this a little.

[cynzke]

49. Logic, It Seems To Me Would OVERRULE an Accusation

of discrimination against a transgender person if you confront someone who you have a "reasonable" suspicion is not who they claim to be and whose behavior may seem threatening, aggressive or inappropriate, like deliberately exposing their genitals, excessive staring at other occupants, foisting unwanted attention on others. The anti-discrimination ordinances apply to the establishments where these areas are located but these laws don't specifically apply to private individuals. As a private individual, you are not legally obligated to comply with these ordinances at the risk of sacrificing your own safety. If you have a reasonable concern about your safety, I would think it is ok to challenge someone who you think is there to harm you. Dressing or looking weird of its self is not a reasonable excuse to challenge someone. It must also include a tangible threat.

[HillareeeHillaraah]

58. Logic takes a back seat if it's the law....

If the law says ANYONE claiming to be female must be allowed in. The law is clear about the self reporting nature of compliance. You can't ask for id....you can't point out a beard or a moustache. It's specifically self reported.

The very solution for the violence and vulnerability experienced by transwomen has transferred that vulnerability onto natal girls and women.

And we're not allowed to talk about it because you'll be called a conservative bigot.

[yardwork]

76. That's nonsense. The law does not tie anybody's hands.

It is always illegal to harrass or assault people.

[passiveporcupine]

106. Not really bearded

a person who was bald, with heavy stubble and a towel at waist level, stepped out of the shower.

http://time.com/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents/

So the person hadn't shaved that day, and maybe even the day before. Not a beard and mustache.

And wearing male swim trunks may be just to hide the obvious presence of their genitalia in public.

[Zorra]

50. Hopefully, the ACLU will do a better job at screening out ignorant bigots

in the future, when considering applicants for high level positions in the organization.

[Agnosticsherbet]

51. It is possible to develop bathrooms where no one is made uncomfortable that does no discriminate.

[Chan790]

56. Yes.

They're already not that uncommon in spaces and communities where bathroom access has been a long-standing concern.

Most often, they take the form of "single-occupant" restrooms (usually also doubling as "family" restrooms. e.g. a bathroom where you can lock the door and change your newborn on the changing table while the toddler uses the potty.) or unisex multiple-user restrooms set up with private walled-in stalls (with doors that fill the whole door-frame) around a lobby/commons with sinks, mirrors and other bathroom accoutrements, such as the one at The Smith in NYC pictured below.

[Humanist_Activist]

67. How about what was done largely before? Or perhaps just not discriminate...

I mean, is there all of the sudden a huge rash of assaults in bathrooms of cis gendered people I'm unaware of? Why is this now brought up as an issue?

[Agnosticsherbet]

71. No there aren't, but that doesn't mean that, going forward, we can't design better bathrooms.

I suspect that in less than a decade, in most places, there will be no Men's and Women's bathrooms, just a bathroom.

The reason why most opponents oppose transgender citizens in bathrooms is an antiquated and wrong-headed idea of what defines gender confused with religion.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. I'm not opposed to that idea, its just that I find it odd that, because many localities...

and just now saying that transgender people shouldn't be punching bags, there's all of the sudden this concern about the safety of cis-gender women and girls.

[Agnosticsherbet]

74. A lot of people find change difficult.

They can't stop it, only slow it down.
But it doesn't make it easy.

[Humanist_Activist]

79. I think its more than that, a lot of people are repulsed by transgender people...

look at one of the posters here who describes those who transition as "mutilating" their bodies. Its deep seated transphobia that seems to be fueling these bills, under the guise of protecting the privacy and/or safety of cisgender women.

[Agnosticsherbet]

80. I don't have a problem with people who feel repulsed. My problem is their attempts to force everyone

to follow their narrow minded rules.

[stone space]

52. Maybe she can join the Gundamentalist Crusade for MOAR GUNS at Target.

Gundamentalists have threatened to take their guns to Target restrooms, but Target no longer allows guns.

Just exchange "homophobia" for the made-up word "hoplophobia" and she's in business, crusading for the civil rights of guns!

[truthisfreedom]

57. She made the right decision.

End of story, really.

[Elmergantry]

62. reminds me of kindergarden cop

"Girls have vaginas,boys have penis's"

Who would have ever thought that would end up being hate speech...

[Humanist_Activist]

68. Probably because, like anything in biology, its complicated, fuzzy, contradictory and wrong?

I'm just throwing it out there, if your education on gender ended in kindergarten, there's no use in attempting to educate you further.

[atreides1]

66. And she goes on FOX

http://insider.foxnews.com/2016/06/02/georgia-aclu-maya-dillard-smith-speaks-out-kelly-file

[TipTok]

93. Maybe she thought the ACLU was an extension of the NAACP?

[Nye Bevan]

116. I'm sure that when water fountains were first desegregated,

some white people were uncomfortable using the same fountains as black people. Some folks are not good at adapting to change.