Orlando gunman had used gay dating app and visited LGBT nightclub on other occasions

[DetlefK]

Source: LA Times

At least four regular customers of Pulse, the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender nightclub where the massacre took place, told the Orlando Sentinel on Monday that they believed they had seen Mateen there before.

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," said Ty Smith, who also uses the name Aries.

He saw Mateen at the club at least a dozen times, he said.

"We didn't really talk to him a lot, but I remember him saying things about his dad at times," Smith said. "He told us he had a wife and child."

Read more: http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-nightclub-shooting-20160613-snap-story.html

---

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/12/drag-queen-orlando-gunman-omar-mateen-was-my-friend.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3639961/Orlando-terrorist-went-gay-club-Pulse-dozen-times-got-drunk-belligerent-talked-wife-kid-massacring-49-people-there.html
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/news/orlando-shooter-omar-mateen-was-gay-former-classma/nrfwW/

Former classmates say, he was gay.
Regulars at the "Pulse" say, he was gay.
When he was at the "Pulse", he got drunk, violent, and muttered things about his (religious extremist) father.

Combine.
Do you still get a jihadist?
Or do you get a self-hating closeted homosexual?

[Enrique]

1. Seinfeld?

i don't get this part...

“He was really out there,” he said of Mateen. “He had no friends. He had people who were cordial with him or would ask him how he was doing. Only a few people spoke to him. I was one of the few who would. He was a ‘Seinfeld’ kind of guy.”

[backscatter712]

2. Why not both?

This seems to be a cognitive dissonance thing - he was gay, and he was a fundie Muslim.

And groups like ISIS exploit cognitive dissonance. Suicide-bombing is seen as a "way out" for those who see themselves as sinful, which also include adulterers. Radical Islamic fundie groups pressure those who have "strayed" to become sacrifices, so they could go to Paradise with the 72 virgins and have their slates of sin wiped clean in the process.

"Become a martyr for Allah, and get a Get Out Of Hell Free Card!"

[LeftyMom]

43. If he was getting drunk he definitely wasn't a fundie muslim.

And a lot of his claims to affiliation with various terrorist groups were laughable because they were mutually contradictory groups that have little in common or are outright at war with each other.

His coworkers said he was "unhinged." The people at the bar and on grindr said he was a creep and they warned each other to stay away from him.

This looks like it was just a crazy person bringing religious motifs into their own personal brand of crazy, which is so common that it's barely worth noting, at least when the crazy is a little closer to the religious majority.

[backscatter712]

47. The theory I'm going with right now is cognitive dissonance.

Last edited Wed Jun 15, 2016, 12:06 PM - Edit history (1)

And this is not inconsistent with his behavior.

He very well may have been influence by extreme Muslim ideology, maybe even turned fundie. But at the same time, he was gay, still liked to party, but because of that, he got hit with a huge amount of cognitive dissonance, which could lead to one conclusion "I'm a sinner in the eyes of Allah, I can't get better, I'm destined for Hell." Generates a hell of a lot of self-loathing.

So he decides to martyr himself for Allah, thinking that will get him the Get Out Of Hell card for the afterlife. This isn't inconsistent with the behavior of other extremists. I am remembering a study of failed suicide bombers, and I'll have to see if I can find a link to it, where a lot of the suicide bombers were adulterers or other "sinners" who got the idea in their heads that martyrdom is their ticket to grace, or got pressured by family or people around them to take extreme measures.

I also distinctly remember that Mohammed Atta and the other 9/11 hijackers were quite the party animals before they did their infamous deed.

[LeftyMom]

48. He claimed membership in sunni and shia extremist groups. Again, no fundamentalist would do so.

Those groups regard each other as condemned apostates.

If a person told you they were affiliated with both the Real IRA (Catholic) and the Ulster Freedom Fighters (Protestant) you'd know that they were 100% full of shit.

[backscatter712]

49. I don't think anyone's accusing this killer of making any sense... n/t

[femmedem]

3. I'm getting the picture of a guy who didn't fit in anywhere, rejected romantically and culturally.

Yes, definitely self-hating homosexual.

In some ways, it reminds me of straight men who target women in mass murders after being continually rejected.

I think any pledge to support ISIS would have been a way to feel he belonged somewhere, anywhere, rather than based on any strong ideological belief.

This breaks my heart a little more, because it was easier to think of him as a monster.

[Lurks Often]

5. He is a monster and a POS

There are lots of people who don't fit in anywhere and don't go out and murder 49 innocent people and injure 53 more.

The POS deserves no sympathy at all. Any sympathy should go to the ones murdered, wounded and their families.

[Chasstev365]

13. I think you are spot on!

It's very sad that we live with so many disturbed, isolated individuals, who have easy access to such deadly weapons.

I'm sure that's just what the finding father's had in mind.

[Skittles]

26. poisoned with religious garbage

[underpants]

30. Lack of "campanionship" is one common theme amongst mass killers

Very often sexual but also being outcasts.

Pearl Jam's "Jeremy" discussed this several years before we paid attention to mass killings on a national scale

[eastwestdem]

32. Yeah, I posted an almost identical comment two days ago, and got it hidden...

guess it was too early.

[femmedem]

41. Sorry to hear that. Actually amazed. n/t

[snooper2]

34. He is starting to sound more like an Elliot Roger type Piece Of Shit Loser

I guess you really do have to watch out for the loner can't keep a friend type that nobody wants to be around.

[JI7]

50. and george zimmerman and the dead tsarnaev brother

[Geronimoe]

4. I'm waiting for a complete investigation

It is meaningless to guess what was going on with this messed up person.

So easy to make things up without any facts. Especially for careless politicians to try to gain something out of a tragedy.

[ck4829]

10. If only others had your view

I could practically see some people jumping up and down at their computers when ISIS was mentioned.

[Drum]

24. Exactly...

Once authorities and investigators have examined his residence(s) and holdings, his credit card usage and travel, not to mention phone logs and computer use, we may hear about a fuller picture of this despicable guy.

[tavernier]

6. Many homophobes have issues with their own

sexuality.

[closeupready]

27. "Most", IMO.

[ColesCountyDem]

7. Where do you get "...(religious extremist) father...."?

I've fairly well watched the coverage all day for the last 2 days, and I've heard no one even hint that the father was anything more than an ordinary, run-of-the-mill Muslim.

[ck4829]

9. Who claims he is the President of Afghanistan

[ColesCountyDem]

11. Not an answer to the question I asked. n/t

[ck4829]

12. I'm not sure where one gets "ordinary" from is all.

[ColesCountyDem]

15. I'm not sure where one gets "(religious extremist) father" from, as I wrote previously. n/t

[PDittie]

16. Consider the source but here you go

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/father-omar-mateen-hosts-bizarre-anti-us-talk-show-article-1.2670939

I might describe him as a minor league crackpot, especially the part about running for president of Afghanistan a year after the election.

[ColesCountyDem]

17. "I might describe him as a minor league crackpot...."; that description I would agree with.

Being a crackpot does not ipso facto make one a "religious extremist".

[DetlefK]

18. Shall I replace "religious extremist" with "Taliban-fan"?

[ColesCountyDem]

19. You might, but that wouldn't be correct, either.

He likes the Taliban's attacks on the Pakistani military in the tribal areas. Just because it's 'an enemy of my enemy' situation makes him neither a "religious extremist", nor a "Taliban-fan".

[tabasco]

25. Yes, it does.

If anybody supports the actions of the extremist, terroristic, ultra-violent taliban, he's a taliban supporter and a fucking kook.

[ColesCountyDem]

46. So, we're Communists now?

We supported the USSR, and they were about as extremist, terroristic and violent as they come.

[snooper2]

35. he is a fundie asshole...it's okay- we can call him that, REALLY, it's okay...

[ck4829]

8. He couldn't stand himself he had to have known he wouldn't be getting away

Mateen seemed like a very aggressive person (Well before the shooting), maybe he viewed sex as an act of control and dominance. He may have tried it with men or developed an urge to try it, something might have snapped, it conflicted with his really conservative religious views.

[My Good Babushka]

14. Our presidential candidates on the left and right

are standing on the still warm bodies to call for furthering war with people who having nothing whatsofuckingever to do with this twisted, trite, self-loathing, American shitbag. Everyday is 9-11 to our politicians. A new opportunity to get nutty with some military spending. I call it out. I'm done with it.

[Calista241]

20. I don't have the faintest idea where to go

If I wanted to meet a bunch of gay people. It sounds to me like he was doing recon on where to go to do what he did.

Maybe my age is showing, but wouldn't the club have had more people earlier in the evening, rather than waiting until last call?

[David__77]

29. Not necessarily.

At some places I've been to, things only start picking up not long before 2 AM.

[keithbvadu2]

21. "Or do you get a self-hating closeted homosexual?"

A conservative, deeply religious, self-hating, closeted homosexual?

[zonemaster]

22. Another conservative fallacy dead? (i.e. - Homosexuality is a choice.)

IF, a big IF, it turns out that this guy was actually gay, would that not tend to, in one fell swoop, pretty well destroy the conservative doctrine that sexual-preference is a choice? I mean, if you need an example of someone for whom his 'choice' would most-definitely NOT be one of homosexuality, here's your guy:

1) Devout Muslim
2) A father who, I would venture to guess, certainly would not accept his son's identity (exhibit A - reference the father's recent pronouncements on what awaits homosexuals in the afterlife)
3) Hater of homosexuals (and many other groups, as well, it seems)
4) He was employed in a security line of work - probably not the most gay-friendly field of employment, statistically, but might serve the purpose of making you feel 'manly' (heterosexually) and tough and, to casual outward observers, less likely to be gay.
5) He even tried, TWICE, to have a wife and failed
6) ISIS wannabe and/or sympathizer
7) Et al

IF it turns out that this guy was gay, can you imagine the level of torment in his soul and the supreme level of self-hate? Having feelings and attractions that are about the worst he could imagine - something beyond his best efforts to repress and control, and coming, as he did, from a not-especially 'gay-friendly' heritage and religious background - to say nothing about how he actually felt about homosexuals. Being under that level of self-repression for that long is certainly going to alter one's mind in unpredictable, and likely extreme, ways. Perhaps ways in which mass-symbolic-murder of a manifestation of the feelings you can never really deny or change - perhaps those ways creep into your 'solution set'.

So, to all the eternally, sexuality-judgmental conservatives (and any liberals, as well): If it were a choice, here's a guy that shouldn't have had too difficult a time choosing the 'option' of heterosexuality. But he didn't. He couldn't. And he tried really, really hard. In multiple ways. Hmmm... Why would that be?

[Android3.14]

31. Welcome to DU. I like your comment

This is important to remember as far as homosexuality being a choice. Consenting heterosexual and homosexual intercourse may be a choice, but the visceral sexual attraction between individuals, gay or straight, is mostly beyond any person's control.

[Sunlei]

23. I think he staked the place out to build-up 'courage' for the last violent hate rage of his life.

he was a drunk, a hater of 'others', mentioned many times to others (co-workers) he wished to kill people, a wife beater. Resented his Father who would speak about the character of a good and decent Muslim man and this killer was the opposite.

[underpants]

28. Very likely

[mark67]

33. Raging closeted homosexual or staking the place out...

If it's true that he had accounts on 2 gay dating apps the former more likely I would think...

[forest444]

36. But for his ethnicity, this guy's a garden-variety Republican.

Radicalized and above all, self-hating.

[closeupready]

38. On his ethnicity, it's interesting that Arab Americans voted GOP reliably

for decades. I think that changed with Obama's first election, but not sure about local voting patterns.

[forest444]

39. Good point.

It's not often mentioned because it's a little politically incorrect; but it's a well-established fact that the more backward and fundamentalist the country from which a given immigrant group comes from, the more likely they are - or rather, were - to vote Republican once they become U.S. citizens.

As you pointed out though, the increasingly brazen bigotry among both GOP voters and lawmakers over the last 20 years have left little choice to many of these immigrant groups but to vote Democratic.

Most of them, to be sure, are salt of the earth and more than welcome into the Democratic Party. By and large, they mourn these tragedies as much or even more than anyone given the hatred they whip up against said groups.

[Night Watchman]

37. That 9/11 Call

was an attempt to fool his homophobic father into thinking he wasn't gay. K&R!

[King_David]

40. Nobody has come foreword and said they had a sexual relationship with him,

until that happens the rest is meaningless speculation.

Doubt he was Gay.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

42. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to admit it.

Even if he didn't, that doesn't prove he didn't have the desire. Using gay dating apps and drinking heavily at gay bars. Dozens of trips over a few years suggests a lot more than casing the place. Maybe he wanted to but didn't have the courage to go through with it. He could have been struggling with conflict due to his fundamentalist upbringing, getting really drunk and hoping he could overcome that conflict and follow through.

Yes, it is speculation, but if these things are true, being a conflicted person is a more logical assumption. It shouldn't take 3 years and dozens of trips to plan a shooting in a bar.

[King_David]

44. Nah , I'm pretty sure that's not how it works in the Gay world.

Getting to the bar and showing your face on apps and then not being able to go further? Nope

[ohnoyoudidnt]

45. Not usually, but we are talking about a possibly very conflicted person.

I'm not sure it takes dozens of visits and using gay apps to plan a shooting. For someone who supposedly was enraged at seeing two men kiss, he spent a lot of time hanging around gay people.

But the FBI is looking at his computer activity. If he has gay porn or visited gay porn sites, that should remove doubt.

[tenderfoot]

51. Do believe people who claim they had gay sex with Obama? How about Tom Cruise?

You cannot be serious.

[King_David]

52. What's" Gay sex"?

[tenderfoot]

53. Ask Obama's lovers

eom

[Kingofalldems]

54. So why does he use a gay dating site?

[King_David]

55. Using Grinder to case out his targets , get to know his enemy..

If I have Tinder on my iPhone, doesn't mean I'm straight.

[Kingofalldems]

56. Really now.

[King_David]

57. Huh?

You ever used Grinder?

I consider myself a Grinder expert.

[Kingofalldems]

58. Not gay so I wouldn't have any reason.