Corbyn appears to compare Israeli government to Islamic State
Last edited Fri Jul 1, 2016, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: The Guardian
Jeremy Corbyn was engulfed in a fresh row over Israel when he appeared to compare the government of Binyamin Netanyahu to Islamic State at the launch of an independent review into antisemitism in the Labour party.
In prepared remarks, Corbyn said: “Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Islamic friends are responsible for Islamic State.”
Later, in response to a question met with jeers from an audience with a strong pro-Corbyn presence, the Labour leader denied he had intended to make such a comparison.
“The point is that you shouldn’t say to someone that just because they’re Jewish you must have an opinion on Israel, any more that you say to anyone who’s a Muslim you must have an opinion on the vile actions being taken by people misquoting the good name of Islam in what they do,” he said.
Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/jeremy-corbyn-appears-compare-israeli-government-islamic-state-labour-antisemitism-review
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sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)If you didn't speak English as your native language you might be able to construe the statement below as somehow relevant to the headline above. Otherwise, you'd have to be pretty credulous.
“Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Islamic friends are responsible for Islamic State.”
iandhr
(6,852 posts)In addition, he has called Hamas and Hezbollah agents of “long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region,” and once invited to Parliament a Palestinian Islamist, Raed Salah, who has suggested Jews were absent from the World Trade Center on 9/11. Corbyn called him an “honored citizen.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/opinion/an-anti-semitism-of-the-left.html?_r=1
This makes him an antisemite.
Antisemitism is a cause that the far left and the far right have in common.
Igel
(35,300 posts)red : color :: dog : animal does not imply an equivalence between color and animal unless you really, really look for it.
If I'm looking for racist dog-whistles, I might say that the person behind that analogy is a racist, and a lot of people who revel in suspicion and like to find grievance everywhere would say, "Amen!" When, in fact, what's being compared is the relationship between red and color versus dog and animal.
Both color and animal are general terms for sets of specific token. They're classes. Red is a color; dog is an animal. The relationship is one of inclusion in a set. Broccoli : vegetable, vegetable : plant, dog : Canidae, proton : baryon, baryon : matter, Obama : president all have the same relationship, but I'm not comparing Obama to a broccoli, dog, proton, vegetable, or baryon (or even "Barry-on"
.
Jew : Israeli government :: Muslim : ISIS works. Some X, but not all X, support oppressive government that they don't live under. You can think that Netanyahu's government is oppressive without saying it's as bad as ISIS. Heck, a lot of people consider Obama's government oppressive, but that doesn't mean they think Obama has his cabinet running around lopping off heads. In any event, what you have to compare isn't the terms across the :: operator; you have to compare the terms on either side, that's the : bit, and then compare the results. This is like saying 2 + 3 = 4 + 1 means I think 3 is the same as 1.
As for Hamas and Hezbollah, I need more. Pelosi called Assad of Syria a partner for peace, but that didn't make her into an authoritarian dictator. She played politics, right down to donning a head scarf, and was hailed for it--this was when Bush II declared Syria part of the "axis of evil" and everybody rushed to the defense of the "axis" because it was part of ridiculing Bush II. Perhaps he's an anti-Semite. Perhaps he's just from a high-Muslim area and needs to placate his constituency by showing he values those they value. Perhaps he drank the kool-aid and thinks that Israeli is evil. Can't say. Don't know. Won't assume I know.
The analogy interpretation proffered by those who probably hated analogies on the SAT, though, is just screwball.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Anything supportive of Palestinians is by definition criticism of Israel, and any criticism of Israel is by definition antisemitism. As for Raed Salah, he is a small time inciter compared to bigots like Eli Ben Dahan, who called Palestinians animals, and is quoted as saying stupid nonsense like “Jews always have higher souls than goyim, even if they’re gay.” Netanyahu saw fit to appoint this clown chief Israeli administrator of the Palestinian Territories. There are dozens just like him or worse in the Likud Party and the Israeli government. If supporting the rights of oppressed people and pointing out the obvious hypocrisy of smearing anyone who doesn't toe the line on the Hasbara narrative for what has been going on in Palestine since at least 1967 makes one antisemitic, then so be it. If Jews can beat up on Palestinians for hating them. Then Palestinians have a right beat up on Jews for hating them.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)Someone of Israel's strongest supporters are also there strongest critics. I criticize West Bank settlements BECAUSE I am pro-Israel not in spite of.
I think Bibi is an a**h**e. I think Likud are bunch of scum bags.
Criticizing the occupation in the west bank is not anti-semitic. Praising Hamas as an agent of social justice and denying Israel's right to exist is.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)as a Jewish state or any other kind of state it wishes to be within the green line established by the 1949 armistice. That cannot happen until Israel either withdraws from the occupied territories and takes its illegal settlers with it or makes a deal with the Palestinians to become equal Israeli citizens with Jewish Israelis under the law. I doubt Hamas would continue to be a problem once the blockage of Gaza was lifted and it was unified with the West Bank. If Hamas found itself as the only remaining agent of hostilities it would soon, and justifiably, be dealt with harshly by all affected peoples.
forest444
(5,902 posts)Anything short of that, is tantamount to coddling a rogue state. And if they wish to remain a rogue state, U.S. policy should be to treat them as such (rather than showering them with billions in military and other aid every year).
iandhr
(6,852 posts)Hamas charter calls for the end fo Israel.
And maybe just maybe Israel might lift the blockade if Hamas would stop building tunnels for the purposes of terrorist attacks.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)published in Haaretz in 2014. It is something to consider.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.606042
Denzil_DC
(7,232 posts)
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and this doesn't help. Israel and isis don't even belong in the same sentence and he only did it to minimize the actions of isis.
It's amazing that is the kind of thing that needs to be explained
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)are working my last nerve. The comparison itself is noxious but it lets their freak fly because they hate Israel. Fucking nauseating.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Corbin didn't say what your angry anti-left agenda desperately wants him to have said. Sorry.
Angel Martin
(942 posts)is to spray everything on fire with gasoline...
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Media continue to stir up any shit they can against him.
“The point is that you shouldn’t say to someone that just because they’re Jewish you must have an opinion on Israel, any more that you say to anyone who’s a Muslim you must have an opinion on the vile actions being taken by people misquoting the good name of Islam in what they do,” he said.
Do you disagree?
iandhr
(6,852 posts)He believes there is an equivalence between the Israeli government and ISIS.
That makes him an antisemite.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)first time he's waded in these waters but it's not. Try not to forget he considers hamas and hezbollah (terrorist organizations to anyone with a brain) his friends.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)“Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Islamic friends are responsible for Islamic State.”
Plain as day, he saying there is an equivalence.
He also has called Hamas and Hezbollah agents of “long-term peace and social justice and political justice in the whole region,” and once invited to Parliament a Palestinian Islamist, Raed Salah, who has suggested Jews were absent from the World Trade Center on 9/11. Corbyn called him an “honored citizen.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/opinion/an-anti-semitism-of-the-left.html?_r=1
Given this, I am not going to give him the benefit of the doubt.
karynnj
(59,501 posts)Things Netanyahu has done that Jews and others my disagree with.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)But given he does and given ,he once invited to Parliament a Palestinian Islamist, Raed Salah, who has suggested Jews were absent from the World Trade Center on 9/11 and praised him I am going to call him an antisemite.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/08/opinion/an-anti-semitism-of-the-left.html?_r=1
African Americans get to define what is racist.
Women get to define what is sexist.
Gays get to define what is homophobic.
And Jews get to define what is antisemitic
karynnj
(59,501 posts)Every one of the things you wrote of are mainly guilt by association. Corbyn is very leftist and like some leftists here may lean too much towards the Palestinians. However, many ignore their complaints all together.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)and hezbollah his pals is NOT guilt by association. HE made the association himself. He's an asshole and this is just further proof of it. I don't care where he stands politically.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Words have actual concrete meanings. You can't redefine on the fly go suit a failing argument you're trying to make. At that point it stops being a word and becomes a useless noise.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)A belief that the government of one nation is equal to ALL Jews, that it speaks for all of them unfortunately is a strongly antisemitic belief. Maybe you want to check that impulse of yours to equate the two?
RAFisher
(466 posts)
“The Jewish community has made an enormous contribution to our Party and our country – Jewish people have been at the heart of progressive and radical politics in Britain, as elsewhere, for well over a century.
“But they are also a minority amongst minorities and have had good cause to feel vulnerable and even threatened throughout history. This should never happen by accident or design in our Labour Party. Modern antisemitism may not always be about overt violence and persecution, though there is too much of that even to this day. We must also be vigilant against subtler and invidious manifestations of this nasty ancient hatred and avoid slipping into its traps by accident or intent.
“For the avoidance of doubt, I do not believe in name calling and I never have. “Zio” is a vile epithet that follows in a long line of earlier such terms that have no place in our Party. Nor should anyone indulge in the kind of stereotyping that can cause such hurt and harm.
“To assume that a Jewish friend or fellow member is wealthy, part of some kind of financial or media conspiracy, or takes a particular position on politics in general, or on Israel and Palestine in particular, is just wrong.
“Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu Government than our Muslim friends are for those of various self-styled Islamic states or organisations. Nor should Muslims be regarded as sexist, antisemitic or otherwise suspect, as has become an ugly Islamophobic norm. We judge people on their individual values and actions, not en masse.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)you can deduce that from his statement
Doodley
(9,088 posts)karynnj
(59,501 posts)misunderstood. One thing this does is make many politicians seem less spontaneous in their comments, sticking to very carefully crafted statements that can not be twisted - knowing the opposition or media even uses sentence fragments to distort.
This does not equate them. It does have embedded in it that Netanyahu has done things that not everyone agrees with. I do not equate Obama with Bush, but you could substitute their names and then use Democrats and Republicans to have a sentence that would not be controversial here.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)and implied both have to put up with embarassing associations.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)By the petty rules of their ignorance, there is nothing that Corbyn can possibly
say which cannot be twisted into implying the opposite ...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)if one has to explain that kind of comment, it failed
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I don't doubt he knew it would annoy.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)where his bona fides are a little iffy
bemildred
(90,061 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)Based on this thread, I doubt it. Since what he said is clearly an attempt to bridge divides, not make them. But he gets no credit for that, the important thing is he implied that Jews and Muslims might have some similarities.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)way of bridging divides, he's astonishingly incompetent at this
bemildred
(90,061 posts)But then, does anybody curb their sarcasm these days?
But it is still tepid stuff, here, this is better:
YP Comment: A spineless dereliction of duty and act of betrayal - why Boris turned his back on No10
A SPINELESS dereliction of duty, abdication of responsibility, an act of cowardice, betrayal, treachery... words simply cannot do justice to the manner of Boris Johnson’s bombshell decision to pull out of the Tory leadership race one week after persuading the country to leave the European Union and, in doing so, plunge the country’s economy into unfathomable chaos.
Strangely silent since the shock outcome, a result which brought about Prime Minister David Cameron’s resignation, this bolt from the blue can be attributed to three core reasons. The de facto leader of the Brexit campaign had no idea himself how the UK could extricate itself from the EU without compromising trade; his popularity amongst Tory activists was over-exaggerated and he was too weak to stand up to confront the backstabbing of his lieutenant Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary.
Given the extent to which the former Mayor of London’s personality decisively swung public opinion, the very least that the electorate deserve is some sort of explanation. Yet what did they get? Mr Johnson shuffling off without answering a single question, presumably because he values his contract as a national newspaper column more than the British people.
The only saving grace, at a time of profound political, economic and constitutional turmoil, is that Mr Johnson’s unsuitability for high office was established now – and not after he had won the keys to 10 Downing Street.
http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/opinion/yp-comment-a-spineless-dereliction-of-duty-and-act-of-betrayal-why-boris-turned-his-back-on-no10-1-7990300
And better English too.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)they ran a Trump-style scam on the entire country
bemildred
(90,061 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)He simply reiterated the fact that you can't necessarily blame the common people for the actions of those who control them, regardless of who they are.
Doodley
(9,088 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)He's not only tone deaf, but probably doesn't think for himself either.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Jews are often collectively blamed for shit Israel does. And Muslims are often collectively blamed for what IS does. Corbyn's point is that doing so is wrong in both cases.
Where would you care to disagree with him on that assessment?
King_David
(14,851 posts)Especially in light of Corbin's history.
Thankfully he will be gone soon, and it can't come quick enough.
Mr Corbin ? NEXT !!
Nihil
(13,508 posts)
King_David
(14,851 posts)You seem to know me.
Who are you?
Nihil
(13,508 posts)I "know" you because I've been here since 2003 and, as for any regular reader
of DU, I've naturally seen your posts many, many times.
Hence, I had absolutely no surprise that you would deliberately take
Corbyn's words as anti-semitic, regardless of the fact that they are
nothing of the sort.
OT: This is getting reminiscent of the joke about prisoners just calling out
the numbers except, in this case, the set-up would be:
"Most of us have been here so long that we have heard all the arguments before.
So we just number them and use the number."
King_David
(14,851 posts)I have had straight people tell me what is and isn't homophobic... Me and my gay friends just laugh when that happens, even though it's not really funny.
It's whipped-up nothing. Hell, some of us have been saying much the same thing on here.
If the objection is that in some sense he "equated" the two, Israel and ISIS, I don't see where he did that.
But he's not posting on DU, and the knives aren't out for any of us (unless we risk an alert), and we aren't a besieged Labour leader with the press pack eager to topple us.
So it wasn't a media-savvy statement at this particular time. But what's he supposed to do? Shut up completely and not fulfil his commitments? They'll grasp at anything at the moment. And people will fall for it.
brooklynite
(94,502 posts)...and it reinforces the image of Corbyn as too rash and out of the mainstream to lead Labour to a Parliamentary victory at any future election.
Denzil_DC
(7,232 posts)it's going to be a media shitstorm.
Personally, I blame the media. Christ, given the hatred that's been spread in the UK over recent months, he was trying to be conciliatory and defuse hatred against both Jews and Muslims. But it seems you can't even mention Israel beyond approved contexts if you hold public office, and who the hell knows what they'll be on a certain day? And this is how he's rewarded by speaking out about group hatred.
I don't see it as a rash statement. I'm sorry, but a lot of his supporters - and me, who's not actually a real-life supporter beyond trying to damp down some of the reactions from afar on an American board when I can be bothered to pipe up and seeing this for what it is, a media-conspired by rightwingers to depose him against the will of his party members - would have a lot more immoderate things to say about the whole Middle East situation if we hadn't learned to bite our tongues, including on here.
Your perception of "the mainstream" in the UK is an American one. We're trying hard not to come to resemble you too closely in some of the things we don't find palatable. I'm sure that cuts both ways, but you're bigger than us!
I usually never discuss Israel/Palestine on American boards. There's a good reason for that. I think I'll probably go back to doing that.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)There's good reason he lost that no-confidence vote. Doesn't matter that he's right, just being Jewish or Muslim doesn't make you responsible for the actions of any specific entity, but you'd think a politician with his experience would be aware enough not to mention ISIS and Israel together like that. He basically chose one of the worst possible ways to make that comparison between two groups of people.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)How many Muslims?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)What Israel does is no more the fault of Jews than what IS does is the fault of Muslims. It's not an equation of the two entries, but rather two examples of a greater people not being responsible for the wrongs of an entity.
English-language media seems to need to up its reading comprehension game.
Denzil_DC
(7,232 posts)they might go some small way towards preventing a Jewish person or a Muslim person being beaten up on the street.
There's a lot of out-group hatred in the UK at the moment. It doesn't that frequently flare up into violence and it's certainly not a new development, but the media are complete hypocrites here because they've done so much to stir it up.
Helen Borg
(3,963 posts)Same forces at play in the UK... 
suffragette
(12,232 posts)agnostic102
(198 posts)is a big supporter of hamas.. of course hes anti semetic.. but he just wears a tie and articulates hes antisemitism in western media.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)Even if he is, what does the statement over which he is being flayed have to do with Hamas? How did Hamas even become part of the discussion?
iandhr
(6,852 posts)This is what he said about Hamas
Corbyn once described it as his “honour and pleasure” to host “our friends” from Hamas and Hezbollah in parliament. According to Corbyn, he extended his invitation to the aforementioned groups – and spoke of them glowingly – because all sides need to be involved in the peace process.
So far, so reasonable. Yet negotiation is not on Hamas’s agenda, as Corbyn ought to know. In its charter Hamas states: “Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement… There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through jihad.”
It isn’t a peaceful negotiated solution that Hamas wants; it’s the destruction of the Jews. Here is a direct quote from Hamas’s charter: “The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: ‘The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!’” If this were not bad enough, Corbyn has also:
Taken tea on the parliamentary terrace with Raed Salah, who he described as “a very honoured citizen” despite that fact that Salah was charged with inciting anti-Jewish racism and violence in January 2008 in Jerusalem and sentenced to eight months in prison. He was found by a British court judge to have used the “blood libel”, the medieval antisemitic canard that Jews use gentile blood for ritual purposes;
Written a letter defending Stephen Sizer, the vicar disciplined by the Church of England for linking to an article on social media entitled 9/11: Israel Did It;
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism
He has regularly associated himself with antisemites. That is why I call him an antisemite. Hamas is very much relevant to the discussion.
sulphurdunn
(6,891 posts)in the original post would lead one to believe the man is an antisemite, even if he is. Nor, should it be assumed that he is one because he talks to Palestinians who profess to be, is civil to them, or states that they must be included in any discussion of peace.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)This goes way beyond being "civil" to the Palistinians.
He pals around with people says "Jews are to blame for 9/11"
That is antisenitism.
Antisemitism is a cause the far left and the far right have in common.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Entirely.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)On this site you probably can't cite FOX against Obama or Sanders, but you can make up for all the right wing skew you might be hankering for by transposing it to the rabid Telegraph against Corbyn.
pescao
(717 posts)The quote at the link (and the Labour link above) was actually:
In prepared remarks, Corbyn said: “Our Jewish friends are no more responsible for the actions of Israel or the Netanyahu government than our Muslim friends are for those of various self-styled Islamic states or organisations.”
His people later clarified that meant countries like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia...
David__77
(23,369 posts)It's either an example of poor communication, in my opinion, or he did intend to simply compare responsibility levels. Interestingly, he doesn't say there is no responsibility and he didn't characterize the magnitude of responsible of any party - he simply says that one group is no more responsible than the other.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)He's saying that Muslims are no more responsible for IS than Jewish people are for the shitty behavior of the Israeli government.
The only way you can think this is bad is if you are one of those people who think any criticism of the Israeli government makes you an antisemite.
Nihil
(13,508 posts)> He's saying that Muslims are no more responsible for IS than Jewish people
> are for the shitty behavior of the Israeli government.
Thank Heavens for someone who can actually READ and UNDERSTAND English.
> The only way you can think this is bad is if you are one of those people
> who think any criticism of the Israeli government makes you an antisemite.
... and boy can we see enough of them upthread ...
LeftishBrit
(41,205 posts)He said that it is just as unfair to blame Jews for everything Israel does, as to blame Muslims for everything that Islamic states (not 'Islamic State') and groups do. That is not the same thing as equating them; just saying that you can't blame members of a religion or ethnicity for everything done by political entities associated with that religion or ethnicity.
By the way, I did strongly object to Ken Livingstone's remarks about Zionism and Hitler, so it's not that I will just automatically defend Labour people from all criticisms re anti-Semitism. But I think it's unjustified in this case.
