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Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:46 AM

Teacher who can't speak Spanish sues after failing to get Spanish teaching post

Source: The Guardian

A Florida teacher who speaks no Spanish is suing her employer for discrimination, after the school rejected her for a job that required teaching an hour of Spanish per day.

Third grade teacher Tracy Rosner filed a federal employment discrimination lawsuit against the Miami-Dade County School Board, claiming that her race – white – prevented her from getting the job.


After a decade of working at Coral Reef Elementary, Rosner requested last year to teach reading and language arts to students in the Extended Foreign Language (EFL) program, a track that allows students to learn a language other than English for an hour per day.

The school rejected her request because it requires that reading and language arts instructors of the EFL program speak Spanish, said the lawsuit.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jul/27/teacher-cant-speak-spanish-sues-failing-teaching-post

76 replies, 6075 views

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Reply Teacher who can't speak Spanish sues after failing to get Spanish teaching post (Original post)
NWCorona Jul 2016 OP
hobbit709 Jul 2016 #1
keithbvadu2 Jul 2016 #9
oberliner Jul 2016 #11
Tempest Jul 2016 #29
oberliner Jul 2016 #44
christx30 Jul 2016 #51
lancer78 Jul 2016 #68
christx30 Jul 2016 #69
Motley13 Jul 2016 #2
NWCorona Jul 2016 #17
meow2u3 Jul 2016 #3
oberliner Jul 2016 #13
ToxMarz Jul 2016 #22
oberliner Jul 2016 #24
Tempest Jul 2016 #31
oberliner Jul 2016 #45
bravenak Jul 2016 #58
Tempest Jul 2016 #30
oberliner Jul 2016 #46
Xithras Jul 2016 #36
4lbs Jul 2016 #42
Xithras Jul 2016 #43
oberliner Jul 2016 #47
Roland99 Jul 2016 #4
tonyt53 Jul 2016 #5
The Second Stone Jul 2016 #6
oberliner Jul 2016 #14
Tempest Jul 2016 #32
oberliner Jul 2016 #48
PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #63
AllyCat Jul 2016 #7
Person 2713 Jul 2016 #8
PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #61
Person 2713 Jul 2016 #65
oberliner Jul 2016 #10
forest444 Jul 2016 #12
oberliner Jul 2016 #19
NWCorona Jul 2016 #23
oberliner Jul 2016 #25
NWCorona Jul 2016 #26
oberliner Jul 2016 #27
Cal Carpenter Jul 2016 #34
oberliner Jul 2016 #49
alphafemale Jul 2016 #56
bravenak Jul 2016 #59
happyslug Jul 2016 #60
Cal Carpenter Jul 2016 #72
happyslug Jul 2016 #73
Cal Carpenter Jul 2016 #74
xocet Jul 2016 #40
LeftyMom Jul 2016 #55
athena Jul 2016 #70
matt819 Jul 2016 #15
oberliner Jul 2016 #18
matt819 Jul 2016 #20
iandhr Jul 2016 #16
Tarc Jul 2016 #21
Freddie Stubbs Jul 2016 #33
Stonepounder Jul 2016 #28
LoverOfLiberty Jul 2016 #35
lark Jul 2016 #37
oberliner Jul 2016 #50
lark Jul 2016 #57
guillaumeb Jul 2016 #76
alp227 Jul 2016 #38
3catwoman3 Jul 2016 #39
happyslug Jul 2016 #64
kimbutgar Jul 2016 #41
stone space Jul 2016 #52
PersonNumber503602 Jul 2016 #62
Person 2713 Jul 2016 #66
JI7 Jul 2016 #53
Aristus Jul 2016 #54
Person 2713 Jul 2016 #67
cannabis_flower Jul 2016 #71
GreenPartyVoter Jul 2016 #75

Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:51 AM

1. Tracy is a little unclear on the concept of teaching a language she doesn't know.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:04 AM

9. Apparently she does not know the English language very well either if

the requirements are posted.

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Response to hobbit709 (Reply #1)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:06 AM

11. The headline and article are filled with lies

 

She was requesting a job teaching English, not Spanish.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #11)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:23 AM

29. You're wrong, she requested a job in the EFL track that requires a second language

Rosner's attorneys write that her school's students are on three tracks: college preparatory, gifted, and extended foreign language (EFL), where they receive one hour of foreign language instruction per day. In May 2015, Rosner requested to be reassigned to the EFL track, where students are taught both English and another language.

But Rosner says the principal had an unfair policy of requiring its foreign language teachers to actually speak the language they were teaching.

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/non-spanish-speaking-teacher-sues-miami-dade-after-shes-denied-job-that-includes-teaching-spanish-updated-8619707

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Response to Tempest (Reply #29)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:46 PM

44. No, that is not true

 

The job does not require a second language.

The one hour of foreign language instruction can be taught by either the math/science teacher or the reading/language arts teacher.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #44)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 02:22 PM

51. Ideally, the language arts teacher

should teach languages and the math/science teacher should teach that.
And the job should go to someone that is actually qualifies for it.
Not everyone can get the job they want. I'll never be an astronaut or a superhero.

She should pick up a copy of Rosetta Stone.

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Response to christx30 (Reply #51)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 12:37 AM

68. My mom was an english/spanish teacher

 

but she also spoke fluent spanish.

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Response to lancer78 (Reply #68)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 01:44 AM

69. This one doesn't.

The administration had something else in mind for this program. This teacher doesn't fit the bill. Someone else would be a better fit for the job. No one is owed anything.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:53 AM

2. ¡Dios mio!

No puede ser.

The job description, I'm sure (I hope) had Spanish as a job qualification.

There is no lack of Spanish speakers in Miami.



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Response to Motley13 (Reply #2)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:14 AM

17. Truth! When I was there I barely heard English.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:54 AM

3. That would me like me suing to get a job as a Russian teacher

because I don't speak nor read Russian.

Drop the suit, Ms. Rosner. You won't win this one.

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Response to meow2u3 (Reply #3)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:08 AM

13. She was not asking for a job as a Spanish teacher

 

She was asking to continue doing her current job as an English teacher, just on a different track that involved one hour of foreign language instruction that could be provided by any teacher.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:24 AM

22. Is this something new in employment

To require employers to hire unqualified people and provide additional employees who can do the aspects of the job the person is not qualified to do. This opens a world of new career opportunities for me.

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Response to ToxMarz (Reply #22)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:29 AM

24. No additional employee would be provided

 

This article gives a completely false impression that she wanted to be a Spanish teacher, which she didn't. She wanted to continue to be an English teacher, but on a different track.

The EFL track already has teachers who teach the foreign language portion but not the English language portion (and vice versa)

Also, they retaliated against her by giving her additional job responsibilities and creating what she has determined to be a hostile work environment (though the administration did not agree).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #24)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:25 AM

31. You're still wrong

She requested a transfer to a program that REQUIRES a second language.

Rosner's attorneys write that her school's students are on three tracks: college preparatory, gifted, and extended foreign language (EFL), where they receive one hour of foreign language instruction per day. In May 2015, Rosner requested to be reassigned to the EFL track, where students are taught both English and another language.

But Rosner says the princil had an unfair policy of requiring its foreign language teachers to actually speak the language they were teaching.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #31)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:47 PM

45. No, your information is not accurate

 

Read the court documents.

Here is an excerpt:

The 2013-2014 EFL guidebook for Miami-Dade County does not require that the reading/language teacher provide foreign language, in fact, a teacher of any subject at the school who is language proficient can teach the foreign language component of an EFL program.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #45)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 05:09 PM

58. It says 'a teacher of any subject who is language profficient can teach the foreign language'

 

They do not mean language profficient in ENGLISH. They mean in the language they are teaching. It makes absolutely no damn sense otherwise. What it means is that another teacher who is profficient in the FOREIGN language would have to come in and do her job for her for one of the seven hours of instruction time. This is why she was rejected. If you do not entiende espanol no puede hacerlo.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:25 AM

30. You're still wrong

She requested a transfer to a program that REQUIRES a second language.

Rosner's attorneys write that her school's students are on three tracks: college preparatory, gifted, and extended foreign language (EFL), where they receive one hour of foreign language instruction per day. In May 2015, Rosner requested to be reassigned to the EFL track, where students are taught both English and another language.

But Rosner says the princil had an unfair policy of requiring its foreign language teachers to actually speak the language they were teaching.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #30)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:49 PM

46. Your information is incorrect (all three times that you posted it)

 

Teaching reading/language arts as part of the EFL program does not require a second language.

The one hour of foreign language instruction can be taught by either of the teachers on the grade level team.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #13)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 11:09 AM

36. Except that it's not "foreign language instruction"

It's "instruction in a foreign language". My kids went to elementary and junior high schools with immersive EFL programs. We're not talking about teaching "Spanish class". We're talking about teaching math, and literature, and history, and government in Spanish. The idea behind immersive EFL programs is to move beyond merely spending an hour a day learning a language, and to instead spend an hour or two a day fully teaching the classes standard coursework in that foreign language. This provides the children with practical, hands on experience in that language on a daily basis and is FAR more beneficial than an old fashioned foreign language class. Generally, kids interested in taking EFL tracks have to demonstrate a rudimentary understanding of the language or complete at least a year in a regular foreign language class before they're even allowed in.

A teacher who cannot teach in Spanish is unqualified to teach an EFL course. Si ella no entiende español , ella no puede educar en español .


Hoy vamos a estudiar la historia. Por favor, abra su libro , "Pueblos historia de los Estados Unidos" a la página 217.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 12:58 PM

42. Thank you for the clarification.



So, if a person doesn't speak Spanish, they cannot teach EFL. Period.

I think some may have confused EFL with ESL.

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Response to 4lbs (Reply #42)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:38 PM

43. There's actually a connection between EFL and ESL classes.

The first EFL classes were the result of regulatory limitations on ESL classrooms. When ESL became a political hot-potato in some areas, school districts responded by opening up ESL classes to all students, irregardless of their racial or cultural backgrounds. The idea behind ESL was simply that we wanted to educate immigrant children in ALL subjects while they learned English, so their poor English skills didn't put them behind academically in other areas. Immersive EFL classrooms simply take that concept and expand it to all students. Not only does this allow schools to provide advanced second language instruction to English speakers, but it also allows schools to place non-English speakers in mainstream classes that will immerse THEM in their new language while also allowing them to learn general education subjects in the language they already know. It's a win-win situation.

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Response to Xithras (Reply #36)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:50 PM

47. The position does not require teaching in Spanish

 

Read the court documents.

Relevant except:

The 2013-2014 EFL guidebook for Miami-Dade County does not require that the reading/language teacher provide foreign language, in fact, a teacher of any subject at the school who is language proficient can teach the foreign language component of an EFL program.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:54 AM

4. smdh

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:56 AM

5. Would you really want someone that can't understand this to be teaching your kids?

 

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:00 AM

6. Doesn't mention whether she has a lawyer

 

and whether that lawyer is getting paid.

I'm guessing that the real reason is that she is on thin ice for the rest of her job and is preempting by making up this bullshit in anticipation for getting fired for general incompetence. This way she can say it is retaliation for bringing a frivolous suit.

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Response to The Second Stone (Reply #6)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:09 AM

14. See my post below

 

Lawyer has made a statement. This article has many basic facts wrong (especially the headline).

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Response to oberliner (Reply #14)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:26 AM

32. The lawyer admits she's not qualified

She requested a transfer to a program that REQUIRES a second language.

Rosner's attorneys write that her school's students are on three tracks: college preparatory, gifted, and extended foreign language (EFL), where they receive one hour of foreign language instruction per day. In May 2015, Rosner requested to be reassigned to the EFL track, where students are taught both English and another language.

But Rosner says the princil had an unfair policy of requiring its foreign language teachers to actually speak the language they were teaching.

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Response to Tempest (Reply #32)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:51 PM

48. This is not true

 

The lawyer indicates that, per the district policy, there is no requirement that the reading/language arts teacher needs to be the one who teaches the foreign language component of the class. It can just as easily be the math/science teacher.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #48)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 07:56 PM

63. I might be a bit confused about what this track is all about

but even if there are parts of the track that are solely taught in English, it seems reasonable that they might want all the teachers in the track to be able to speak the language so that the load can be distributed. Now maybe she legally is right or something, and the rules do state that language isn't required (accepting your interpretation of the rules) I still think that makes her a rather annoying and troublesome person who is only thinking of herself. At least that's my initial thought based on fairly limited information and a few assumptions on my part.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:00 AM

7. Thought for sure this was Wisconsin, where teachers are no longer required to be graduates of

Anything. Just another day in GOP America.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:01 AM

8. I want to teach physics

Where should requirements stop? Why can't I ? be fair
Get the feeling she doesn't care about the kids and not being able to teach them up to standards
Just another angry left behind not willing to certify who hopes yelling speak English damn it I can't understand you at the kids will do

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Response to Person 2713 (Reply #8)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 07:46 PM

61. Hello, 2713. I'm 503602.

So I hear you want to teach physics but don't want to do the mathy stuff, because you don't know math. That's cool, we'll get some other teacher to come in whenever numbers come up in the curriculum.

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Response to PersonNumber503602 (Reply #61)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:01 PM

65. Pay for an extra teacher so I can teach physics even though I m not qualified!! Requirements none

and if the students can't learn anything from me and complain I'll sue them too!

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:05 AM

10. This article is total BS

 

From her lawyer

"Ms. Rosner was denied a job teaching English Reading and Composition to children in the EFL program in Miami-Dade County Schools. The EFL program has a one-hour Spanish component per day that can be taught by any teacher in the program, and not exclusively the English Reading and Comprehension teacher. By requiring the English teacher to understand Spanish to teach English to English speaking students is the issue."


The article also leaves out this fact (covered by the actual local press in the area, not a British source):

After she was denied the job, Rosner says, the school's principal retaliated by doubling her workload and asking her to teach all the subjects instead of just reading and language arts. Rosner apparently complained to the superintendent and even made a formal complaint to the school district's civil rights office, but administrators there found no probable cause and closed the case.


http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/non-spanish-speaking-teacher-sues-miami-dade-after-shes-denied-job-that-includes-teaching-spanish-updated-8619707

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:08 AM

12. The Guardian has been sounding more and more like the Daily Torygraph or the Whore Street Journal.

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Response to forest444 (Reply #12)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:22 AM

19. They just didn't do any actual reporting on this

 

No statement from the teacher. No full statement for the lawyer. Inaccurate information about the position and what it entails.

It's really about generating clicks with a "Thats ridiculous!!" headline to get people riled up.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:27 AM

23. I have a few questions regarding the lawyers statement

Are they saying that the one hr Spanish class isn't assigned to a particular teacher and anyone can teach the class? From the way I read the article. The open teacher position is required to teach the class.

This is her lawyers side so that should be taken into account.

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Response to NWCorona (Reply #23)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:33 AM

25. One would think a good reporter would ask those questions

 

That's my problem with articles like this. They don't actually contain any reporting.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #25)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:37 AM

26. I can understand that frustration

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Response to NWCorona (Reply #26)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:44 AM

27. I did a little digging

 

Here's what I found out:

For the EFL track at the elementary school level, there are two teachers who give instruction in English. One is the math/science teacher who teaches those subjects, and the other is the reading/language arts teacher who teaches those subjects.

Then there is an hour of instruction in Spanish, that, generally speaking is taught by the reading/language arts teacher, but could, theoretically instead be taught by the math/science teacher.

This teacher was teaching on one of the other non-EFL tracks and was requesting to be switched into this one, continuing in her role as a reading/language arts teacher. Because she would not be able to teach the one hour in Spanish, she was denied that position. Her argument is that this is discriminatory, and that the policy handbook does not specify that the reading/language arts teacher needs to be the one who teaches the hour in the foreign language.

She also claims that after she was denied the change in position, that the principal retaliated against her for raising a stink by giving her additional work and otherwise creating a hostile environment.

Not sure what the truth of the matter is, but hopefully that at least paints a fuller picture.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:35 AM

34. The claim of “employment discrimination on the basis of race and national origin”

which, apparently, is a direct quote from the lawsuit, is what makes me err on the side of thinking she is off-base here.

I recognize that a lot of facts are unknown, at least based on what is in the thread, and I tend to err on the side of the worker in employment related conflicts, but that racism claim is off the wall.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:52 PM

49. Yes, that is a little ridiculous

 

They should have left race and national origin ought of the complaint in my opinion.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:28 PM

56. Yes the claim of racism is ridiculous. Speaking Spanish has nothing to do with race. nt

 

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #34)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 07:23 PM

60. That is the Statutory language from the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

 

"without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin"

1964 Civil Rights Act:

http://users.wfu.edu/zulick/341/civilrightsact1964.html


Yes, the lawsuit skips "color, religion" and transfers "or" to "and" but you can see where that term of art comes from. Remember in Civil Rights Actions you MUST SAY WHAT IS THE TYPE OF DISCRIMINATION. You can not say "I am White and discriminated against". You must say you were discriminated against do to "Race, color, religion or national origin" (and remove what does NOT apply and in this case that is color and religion).

Sorry language similar to that phase is used in ALL DISCRIMINATION CASES when it comes to filing the actual complaint.

Sec. 2000e-2. Unlawful employment practices

(a) Employer practices
It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer -
(1) to fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or
(2) to limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.
(b) Employment agency practices

http://finduslaw.com/civil-rights-act-1964-cra-title-vii-equal-employment-opportunities-42-us-code-chapter-21

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Response to happyslug (Reply #60)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 08:07 AM

72. I realize that, and that is my point

Whether or not she speaks Spanish has nothing to do with her race or national origin. Based on what we know, I don't think she has a a valid civil rights claim.

Perhaps she has a valid labor law claim regarding the actual job description and whether or not she qualifies, or regarding the alleged retaliatory actions of her employer. I don't know. I would guess that the job description isn't totally explicit about the position requiring a second language and the teacher and her lawyer are trying to use that as a loophole.

But race? National origin? That is off the wall. The ability to teach Spanish has nothing to do with those things. And I doubt either the letter of the law or the spirit of the law, in terms of the Civil Rights Act, will help her.

Considering (at least as of yesterday, I haven't dug any deeper) the only real source on this is her lawyer, and the school district has declined to comment, I don't think we're really getting a balanced picture.

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Response to Cal Carpenter (Reply #72)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 09:52 AM

73. But Language and education has a long history of being substitute for race.

 

And the courts know that. Now, in more recent years the courts have played down education as a substitute but in 1971 the US Supreme Court did uphold a finding that an employer demand that all employees have high school diplomas was a substitute for race (The case was from the South and by the 1960s most whites had a high school education while most African Americans did not, thus the demand for a high school diploma was a demand for white employees only.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

Congress has now provided that tests or criteria for employment or promotion may not provide equality of opportunity merely in the sense of the fabled offer of milk to the stork and the fox. On the contrary, Congress has now required that the posture and condition of the job seeker be taken into account. It has -- to resort again to the fable -- provided that the vessel in which the milk is proffered be one all seekers can use. The Act proscribes not only overt discrimination, but also practices that are fair in form, but discriminatory in operation. The touchstone is business necessity. If an employment practice which operates to exclude Negroes cannot be shown to be related to job performance, the practice is prohibited.

http://www.finduslaw.com/griggs-v-duke-power-co-1971-401-us-424-91-sct-849


A mention is made of Aesop's fable of the Fox and the Stock, here is that fable:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fox_and_the_Stork

Please note in 1989 greatly modified Grigg vs Duke Power ending unintentional impact as a factor, but since this all derived from the 1964 Civil Rights Act, Congress reimposed Grigg vs Duke Power test when it modified the 1964 Civil Rights Act in 1991.

Here is more on Wards Cove Packing vs Atonio, the 1989 case I mentioned above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wards_Cove_Packing_Co._v._Atonio

Congress also believed that the Wards Cove case made it too difficult to prove disparate impact claims under Title VII. The Act was amended to provide that an employee could prove a case by showing either that an individual practice or group of practices resulted in "a disparate impact on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin, and the respondent fails to demonstrate that such practice is required by business necessity." Congress added, however, "The mere existence of a statistical imbalance in an employer's workforce on account of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin is not alone sufficient to establish a prima facie case of disparate impact violation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1991


In effect the changes in the law made in 1991 made Gregg vs Duke Power the test Congress wanted the Courts to use. Intention to discriminate is NOT required, the test is the work requirement MUST be business related. That is what this teacher is claiming, she was denied the job for a reason that had nothing to do with the actual job requirements AND THEN WAS RETALIATED AGAINST FOR APPLYING FOR THE JOB. Both Congress and the Courts have long recognize that education and language can be substitutes for race and that is what is at issue here.

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Response to happyslug (Reply #73)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 10:43 AM

74. Fair enough

I still doubt that her claims of discrimination based on race and national origin will hold up here, but as I have said repeatedly, we are only hearing from her lawyer and there is a lot we don't know.

I'm also skeptical that these precedents you mention will apply to this case given the particulars but I am curious to see how it will play out.

If she has a legit complaint regarding the alleged retaliation, I would think that would be her most likely avenue to success, but considering she hired a civil rights-oriented lawyer (who has taken some very interesting cases, based on a quick google) I guess the civil rights issue is her main beef.

Time will tell, as more facts come out. I still have a feeling that the school expects the person in this position to teach the foreign language too, but the job description is not explicit enough about it. But like everyone else all I can do is speculate since we are only hearing one side of the story so far.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 12:32 PM

40. Thanks for doing the research necessary to clarify this thread. n/t

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Response to oberliner (Reply #27)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 03:14 PM

55. Qualified Math/Science teachers are harder to find.

Taking an hour of math/science instructor service away to have that instructor (provided that instructor is able and willing to teach the Spanish instruction hour) means that the school then has to find somebody qualified to teach math and science for an hour a day to fill that slot. And somebody has to teach whatever they were teaching for that hour.

Hiring in somebody who teaches Language Arts and speaks Spanish is a hell of a lot easier.

And it's fucking Florida. If you're monolingual it's going to impact your career choices. Instead of going to a lawyer she should have gone to the enrollment office of the nearest community college.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #10)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 05:47 AM

70. I somehow guessed that.

I also guessed that she was female. This "article", and all the hateful comments, are just about making a woman look stupid, and then joyfully mocking and attacking her. Good old misogyny, in other words. Too many people jump on board without checking the facts for themselves. Thanks for setting the record straight.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:10 AM

15. Republican, right? (nt)

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Response to matt819 (Reply #15)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:21 AM

18. No, she is a registered Democrat

 

And the article is BS. (See my post above)

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Response to oberliner (Reply #18)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:23 AM

20. Thanks, and whoops

Gotta read the entire thread sometimes.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:13 AM

16. Minds me of an episode of the West Wing.

Bartlet was trying to decide whether or not grant asylum to a bunch of Chinese Christians seeking religious freedom.

Bartlet meets with one of them with Leo says "He's a chemistry professor.There was a while I wanted to be a chemistry professor.
- What happened? - I never actually studied chemistry.These college chemistry departments are really demanding that way.Mr. President."

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:23 AM

21. ...claiming that her race – white – prevented her from getting the job

Uh, white people can learn Spanish, y'know. This knucklehead was rejected because she did not meet the minimum qualifications for the job, not because of her race.

I can't wait to see the blind person who sues because he can't be a pilot.

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Response to Tarc (Reply #21)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:28 AM

33. Most people of Cuban descent in Miami-Dade are white

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:54 AM

28. I agree that both articles totally fail as journalism.

Who, What, When, Where, Why.

I have grandkids in Jr High and High School. They both go from class to class depending on period and have different teachers for different subjects. Seems to me it has been that way for a long time, since it was the same back when I was in Jr High in the '60's.

Now, we know Who, When, and Where. But we really don't know the 'What' or the 'Why'.

1. What track is Rosner currently teaching? What course(s) does she teach? What course(s) would she be expected to teach if she was teaching on the EFL track? (I note that the EFL track is not an 'English as a Second Language track, it is a track that includes a language other than English as one class during the day.)

2. Why was she denied the move? Are all teachers on the EFL track expected to know a second language and be able to teach it? Is Spanish the only language taught on the EFL track?

Hell, I never took a journalism class in my life and I could write a better article than either of the two linked to in the OP. I refuse to pass any kind of judgement on the merits of the suit without a whole lot more info.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 10:47 AM

35. I'm white

y hablo español.

Her problem isn't her skin color, its that she's not qualified for the job.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 11:58 AM

37. Bet she's a drumpf supporter who loathes Hispanics.

How stupid is this!! She isn't qualified so she wasn't hired, that should be the end of the story. The rest is total BS on her part. Hopefully Miami doesn't have a lot of teabaggers who don't really believe in teaching Spanish anyway, I'd think it'd be the opposite.

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Response to lark (Reply #37)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 01:53 PM

50. She is a registered Democrat

 

And she is getting a raw deal here.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 04:04 PM

57. I don't know her, just saw the post.

Why would you say she's getting a raw deal. She doesn't speak Spanish, seems totally ridiculous and trump like to sue for not getting hired to a job for which she's not qualified. Wonder if she's like my mom who was registered Dem, but only voted Dem twice in her 90 year life.

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Response to oberliner (Reply #50)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 01:47 PM

76. Very nicely done.

You introduced fact into the argument and won. But the fault is the media misrepresentation and/or incompetence.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 12:05 PM

38. She'd give Beavis and Butt-head A's.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 12:28 PM

39. A judge worth his or her robes...

...would not accept a case as stupid as this.

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Response to 3catwoman3 (Reply #39)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 08:11 PM

64. The Federal Government uses what is called "Notice Pleading"

 

You do NOT have to say everything in your complaint, just enough to put the other side "On Notice" as to the actual reason for the lawsuit. The Defendant then can file an "Answer" responding to what is in the Complaint or file a motion to dismiss for failing to state a cause of action. From what I have read she has plead enough to avoid dismissal on a motion to dismiss, but all that means is the Defendants will have to file an answer. Both sides will then enter what is called "Discovery" which includes sending questions to each other (called interrogatories) or depositions. Once that is completed then either side (and often it is both sides) file a motion for summary judgement.

Please note in any discrimination case, it has to be filed with your state's Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) first (please note many states calls their EEOC Human Relations Commissions or some other name but I will use EEOC in this thread).

The State EEOC must review the case and will determine if the case has any merit for the EEOC to take on. The EEOC also has a duty to try to get both sides to work together to resolve the dispute. Once that has been completed the EEOC, unless the EEOC wants to take on the case itself and in most cases they do not, gives the Plaintiff a letter that they can file a discrimination action.

I bring up the EEOC for the EEOC would have asked both sides a lot of the question that comes up in such cases. Most of what is called "Discovery" would have been done by the EEOC and would be available to both sides. Thus the Complaint and Answer may already be know to both sides and once the pleading is done, both sides can then use the evidence gathered by the EEOC to file their motions for Summary Judgment.

Most cases like this one is resolved by the State EEOC and rarely go further then the EEOC. The accusation of increase work load would indicate retaliation. I suspect the School Board did not want this teacher to apply for the job, for they wanted someone else but by state law they had to offer the job to all existing teachers. When this teacher applied, the School had to work around her ability to do the job and hung they hat on the fact this teacher did not speak Spanish.

The teacher's position is the requirement of being able to Speak Spanish was NOT part of the job as it is done by others in the school, thus racial discrimination for the School Board wanted an Hispanic (and I suspect a Cuban) in the position not a white woman and the ability to speak Spanish was only an excuse NOT to hire her over someone else.

That is actually a closer call then it looks at first glance. Something occurred here and it is clearly discrimination. The problem is discrimination do to an inability to speak a language when that language is a requirement of the job is legal. On the other hand the use of language to exclude someone of a certain race is illegal.

Please note to require someone to speak English, when English is NOT an essential part of a job had long been held to be racial discrimination. It is a constant point of friction for it is legal to require people to speak English if the job is in a dangerous industry and knowing and speaking English is considered a safety issue (but the Safety issue must be real, not made up such as someone not knowing what "Duck" means when he is approaching a low beam).

I like using the low beam for it reminds me of the time a 18 year old Ben Franklin went to visit his families arch enemy, Cotton Mather. After he entered Mather's house and was sent to where Mather was sitting, Mather yelled "Duck!!!" Franklin ignored him and promptly hit is head on a low door beam. Cotton Mather told Franklin "You are young, you will learn when to duck". Franklin would later said the person who influence most in life was Cotton Mather. Franklin rejected his Massachusetts family objection to the much more open minded Cotton Mather (Franklin's family fully supported the law banning teaching of slaves how to read and write and tried to get Mather indited for teaching his slaves to read, Mather's position was he was complying with the law by NOT teaching them to write, but to deny them the ability to read meant they could NOT read the bible and that was sinful in itself).

Bringing up Ben Franklin and Cotton Mather on subject related to language may be strange, but how Cotton Mather told Ben Franklin to Duck is NOT the safety issue that has carried the day. When a ban on NOT speaking English has been upheld has been in occupation that are clearly dangerous, refineries, steel plants, coal mines etc. Not something like Franklin hitting his head on a low post in someone's home.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 12:50 PM

41. As a teacher I get the impression that she is not a good teacher and needs the job more

I did an internship in a Chinese immersion class for a short period of time during my teaching training. I knew nothing about speaking Chinese and was overwhelmed at times. So I know from experience that this woman is out of line.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 02:36 PM

52. How does her race prevent her from learning spanish?

 



claiming that her race – white – prevented her from getting the job.

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Response to stone space (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 07:49 PM

62. Kind of insulting right?

Apparently white Americans cannot learn more than one language.

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Response to stone space (Reply #52)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 09:06 PM

66. Why would she want to learn Spanish? She believes she is in a country where the offikal

language is English . She shouldn't be required to learn another language if she is a true patriot ! It is in the constitution

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 02:42 PM

53. i had Spanish teacher that was white and knew spanish

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Wed Jul 27, 2016, 02:44 PM

54. Shit. Give her a participation trophy and send her home...

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 07:19 AM

71. That's ridiculous

Someone like Tim Kaine could get the job and he's white.

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Response to NWCorona (Original post)

Thu Jul 28, 2016, 01:38 PM

75. I have subbed as a non-Spanish speaker in Spanish classes. It is ridiculous to think that she should

be hired to do a job she can't do. Yes, it is sad that she is qualified for the rest of the position, but the fact remains that she is not fully qualified and would be doing those students a grave disservice if she was hired and "taught" that class.

Editing to add that as I read further down thread, I am less clear on the situation. I hope that it becomes clearer by the time I get to the bottom of the page, but I am not sure this will be the case!

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