Michigan to audit 'significant mismatches' in Detroit vote
Source: Associated Press
December 12, 2016
LANSING, Mich. (AP) Michigan's elections bureau will investigate "significant" ballot discrepancies in a small portion of Detroit's voting precincts.
The audit ordered Monday stems from a precinct in which 300 people were recorded as voting but only 50 ballots were in a sealed container. State spokesman Fred Woodhams says there's no reason to suspect people's votes weren't counted, but Michigan is aware of "significant mismatches" at roughly 20 of Detroit's 490 precincts.
He says the problems wouldn't have changed the outcome of Republican Donald Trump's victory in Michigan. Democrat Hillary Clinton won 95 percent of Detroit's vote.
The ballots will go to Lansing for inspection.
Read more: https://www.yahoo.com/news/michigan-audit-significant-mismatches-detroit-vote-220357371--election.html
Angry Dragon
(36,693 posts)RoccoR2
(90 posts)anyone know
jimlup
(7,968 posts)Solid blue region. I live in a "neighboring" blue but (different demographic) suburb.
RoccoR2
(90 posts)then I wouldn't suspect fraud
however... if these mismatched ballot boxes were something like 50/50 then I would suspect fraud
groundloop
(11,514 posts)Just for example say there were 100 votes 'lost' at random an in proportion to the overall voting pattern of the precinct. In that particular precinct Hillary would have lost 95 votes and tRump would have only lost 5, a net gain of 90 for tRump. Yet the proportion of D to R votes wouldn't have changed.
RoccoR2
(90 posts)50 real paper ballots in box
300 total vote tally, counted, for box
Also, I find it hard to imagine any GOP 'fingerprints' involved considering the location
LaydeeBug
(10,291 posts)nt
Response to LaydeeBug (Reply #21)
Name removed Message auto-removed
LovingA2andMI
(7,006 posts)This has occurred. The problems with the Detroit vote were huge. Huge enough that it will be impossible to ever determine if ALL Detroiters votes were initially counted. The difference in Michigan was 10,704 votes or about 30 or so Precincts in Detroit, alone.
With mismatched ballots to poll book data, ballots not matching seals on top and/or bottom of bags, misreads on optical scanners and much more -- to be frank -- the Detroit Election results in 2016 must be questioned until the next Presidential Election.
The audit is necessary and all in-charge of this grave miscarriage of ensuring voters, votes are property counted -- should be fired or voted out of office in 2017.
"Thousands of Detroit's Ballots Might Remain Uncounted In Stein's Recount" - Our original story at IU News & Talk
Podcast: Do Recounts Protect The Integrity of The Vote? -12/7 - w/ Guest Tom Barrow - Our Podcast IU Radio LIVE - Must Listen Into Interview To Learn HOW LONG Elections Have Had Problems in Detroit.
rockfordfile
(8,699 posts)How many more of these "discrepancies" are there?
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)to know whether the discrepancy described is between the number of people who were given ballots and the number of ballots in the sealed container or whether it was a discrepancy between the number of ballots in the container and the number indicated on the machine that showed how many ballots were run through it.
In an earlier thread someone described how the machine totals and the number of ballots may not match, if a ballot jams or if someone pulls it out to re-feed it before it scans, it may be counted twice on the counter on the machine but the actual vote would not be counted twice.
Hopefully an investigation will clear this up.
leftieNanner
(15,070 posts)We used the paper ballots and scanners and at the end of the night, we had to balance all of our numbers. Quantity of ballots allocated at the beginning of the day - # of voters' signatures = number of votes on the scanner = number of ballots returned in the sealed bag. It was a challenge, but necessary.
If a precinct's numbers were this far off, there is a BIG problem. Somebody is messing with something here. I would be very concerned. If a scanner broke down, we still had the paper ballots and the numbers still needed to balance. 10,000 votes in the state of Michigan is a very small number. I hope they pursue a full audit.
Crepuscular
(1,057 posts)So let me ask you this, if somebody tried to put their ballot in the scanner and it jammed or they pulled it out after it had been partially scanned, did someone manually reset the scanner to eliminate the tally for that ballot? Otherwise, the scanner would show 2 ballots being sent through, even though there was only one actual ballot involved and it would mess up the tally. I suspect that is what happened, that people were not correctly putting the ballots into the scanner and the scanner tallied more ballots being put through it then were actually issued to voters and somebody did not reset the scanner to delete the 1st attempt at scanning the ballot. As long as the number of ballots issued equals the number of ballots in the sealed container, it really doesn't matter how many scans were shown on the scanner.
leftieNanner
(15,070 posts)did not count the ballot until it had gone all the way through and dropped into the bin. It was not possible to "reset" the scanner. The electronics were inside the machine and not available for poll workers to touch. We always assigned one of the staff to watch over the machine to make sure people didn't mess with the equipment. Again, it was the responsibility of the poll staff to cross check the numbers. But you are right - the number of ballots issued needed to equal the paper ballots in the sealed bag.
AlexSFCA
(6,137 posts)If Michigan gets overturned, fewer electors would need to switch their votes.
However, I was impressed how accurate Wisconsin counting was so I am skeptical about the recount effort.
mahina
(17,625 posts)Aloha.
ALBliberal
(2,334 posts)Are found in three states MI WI PN(rather than one state circa 2000 Florida) harder to pursue recount and legal avenues in three states. 80000 votes three states. Unbelievable... but sadly so believable.
fallrey
(36 posts)after adjustments.
ALBliberal
(2,334 posts)MichMan
(11,870 posts)I lived in the metro Detroit area for much of my life. This recount has been covered extensively in our local press all week, so the following is my understanding of what happened. I am happy to see the state investigating this situation
First off, for those not familiar, elections are run and managed by local election boards run by elected officials. In my adult lifetime, every elected office in Detroit has been held by Democrats; generally there are no Republicans even running in the primaries. While blaming Snyder and Schuette may be popular, that is not who caused this to happen.
While mistakes due to human error can and did happen in isolated areas across the state, it was discerning to note that 60% of the Detroit precincts were disqualified from the recount due to election day irregularities. There is a somewhat archaic Michigan law from 1954 that disqualifies a ballot box from being recounted if the totals of recorded votes doesn't match the poll book. Apparently there were a couple of close elections in the early 50's and this law was intended to avoid the potential for ballot box stuffing by corrupt election workers. Unfortunately, that means that simple human error could also disqualify a precinct from being recounted as well. NOTE: this doesn't mean the votes were not counted, it just means that the totals from election night were used in those instances
Why were there specifically so many in a couple areas like Detroit and Flint? While I don't have inside knowledge, from what I have read in the local press, this situation clearly was the result of poorly trained and supervised local election workers.
If the election workers uncover these type of issues, they can be corrected at the end of the night before the boxes are sealed and the numbers reported. In multiple instances, if a machine appears to not accept a ballot, it is re fed into the optical scanning machine. When that happens, the election workers are required to reset the counter, so a vote isn't recorded more than once. In Detroit, that apparently wasn't done, so it appears that some votes were entered multiple times. At the end of the night, these types of issues were known by the election staff, but apparently they either didn't know what to do or just decided it was a long night and they were going home anyway. (If explanations are made at the time, the votes would have been eligible for recount, but none were made and noted) The county Board of Canvassers still certified those same results also knowing that there were these discrepancies before reporting the totals to the state. With Hillary having a lead in pre election polling, and Detroit voting 90% for Democrats, it may have been that a few votes off didn't really matter and it was "close enough" No one anticipated that there would be a recount initiated by Stein. (If anything, Hillary may have received extra votes in the process)
(I worked as a bank teller for a few years. When the numbers didn't balance at the end of the day, no one went home until it was reconciled)
This falls entirely on the backs of the local elected officials in those cities/counties that recruited and trained the election staff in their areas. While most voters pay attention to the candidates running for president, senators & governors, it is all the other down ticket local offices that often get ignored as people often vote of things like name recognition, yard sign proliferation etc. Hopefully this created enough local embarrassment, that the people in charge in Detroit and Flint will address and correct these problems.
lostnfound
(16,162 posts)He will point to it as evidence of democratic ballot stuffing.
Bring it on, we need transparent, accurate elections.
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)So I agree, tighten up and start more audits.
MichMan
(11,870 posts)http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2016/12/12/records-many-votes-detroits-precincts/95363314/
Voting machines in more than one-third of all Detroit precincts registered more votes than they should have during last months presidential election, according to Wayne County records prepared at the request of The Detroit News.
Detailed reports from the office of Wayne County Clerk Cathy Garrett show optical scanners at 248 of the citys 662 precincts, or 37 percent, tabulated more ballots than the number of voters tallied by workers in the poll books. Voting irregularities in Detroit have spurred plans for an audit by Michigan Secretary of State Ruth Johnsons office, Elections Director Chris Thomas said Monday.
The Detroit precincts are among those that couldnt be counted during a statewide presidential recount that began last week and ended Friday following a decision by the Michigan Supreme Court.
Democrat Hillary Clinton overwhelmingly prevailed in Detroit and Wayne County. But Republican President-elect Donald Trump won Michigan by 10,704 votes or 47.5 percent to 47.3 percent.
Overall, state records show 10.6 percent of the precincts in the 22 counties that began the retabulation process couldnt be recounted because of state law that bars recounts for unbalanced precincts or ones with broken seals.
The problems were the worst in Detroit, where discrepancies meant officials couldnt recount votes in 392 precincts, or nearly 60 percent. And two-thirds of those precincts had too many votes.