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DonViejo

(60,536 posts)
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:39 AM Jun 2017

This message was self-deleted by its author

This message was self-deleted by its author (DonViejo) on Mon Jun 26, 2017, 01:10 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

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This message was self-deleted by its author (Original Post) DonViejo Jun 2017 OP
It's time for them to lose their tax exempt status. Initech Jun 2017 #1
I couldn't agree more! nt Plucketeer Jun 2017 #3
Trump did away with that IRS rule and churches can do what they want with zero risk cstanleytech Jun 2017 #6
If that ever happens, we are truly fucked. Initech Jun 2017 #8
No, he didn't. Igel Jun 2017 #15
Hear hear! nt SusanaMontana41 Jun 2017 #14
The law included all non-profits. Igel Jun 2017 #19
Its time for Islamic schools to start demanding THEIR equal freedom / rights ... Moostache Jun 2017 #2
This would apply to them as well as long as it's purely a secular issue though I do wish cstanleytech Jun 2017 #5
About what I suspected to be honest. nt cstanleytech Jun 2017 #4
That's what the collection plate is for. Otherwise, start paying taxes. Solly Mack Jun 2017 #7
What's the goal of the program? Igel Jun 2017 #16
Thanks for the added input Solly Mack Jun 2017 #17
Duplicate Post as 7:21 am.. Exactly the same source, piece.. write Robert Bartnes at WaPo vkkv Jun 2017 #9
'religious institutions may not be excluded from state programs with a secular intent elleng Jun 2017 #10
Is the playground, while located at a church, used freely by ALL children of the community? Freethinker65 Jun 2017 #11
+1 FailureToCommunicate Jun 2017 #12
DU front page, Same piece only two stories down.. vkkv Jun 2017 #13
Duplicate post 2 posts earlier in LBN on home page. Bernardo de La Paz Jun 2017 #18

Initech

(108,783 posts)
1. It's time for them to lose their tax exempt status.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:47 AM
Jun 2017

If they have that much money that they don't need the government interfering, then it's time for them to start paying. Don't get me wrong - I'm in favor of safer playgrounds, but I am not in favor of religion being above government.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
3. I couldn't agree more! nt
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:50 AM
Jun 2017

cstanleytech

(28,471 posts)
6. Trump did away with that IRS rule and churches can do what they want with zero risk
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:00 AM
Jun 2017

now.
Hopefully the next president reverses it because I sure as hell know that the Repugnants in Congress won't pass a law that would do it as there plan is to get the churches to help them campaign from the pulpit.

Initech

(108,783 posts)
8. If that ever happens, we are truly fucked.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:02 AM
Jun 2017

The Johnson Amendment is the only thing keeping us from sliding into full fascism right now. It's scary to think what megachurches could do if that decision is overturned. And they're coming for it.

Igel

(37,535 posts)
15. No, he didn't.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:48 AM
Jun 2017

He said it would be a good thing to get rid of it. But it's still there.

SusanaMontana41

(3,233 posts)
14. Hear hear! nt
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:39 AM
Jun 2017

Igel

(37,535 posts)
19. The law included all non-profits.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 01:05 PM
Jun 2017

That means non-profit schools and day cares were included. City parks. Public schools. All kinds of organizations that don't pay state taxes. Excluded were for-profit businesses, backyards, and private in-home day care.

Note that you're merging all layers of government into a single, flat structure. It's not. My school taxes are local. The state doesn't see them unless it's a pass-through as part of a robin-hood program. (I'm outside of the Houston school district, which wealthy according to state law and so must pay other districts.)

This is saying those who go to religious day care aren't inferior to those who go to, say, a Montessori day care or town-supported non-profit day care. If you're a non-profit and have a playground for your in-house daycare for employees or those you serve, you're not superior to people who work at an Islamic center or go to a mosque.

It's not saying that religion is superior to government. In a decentralized power structure that the US still largely is, "not subservient to" =/= "superior to". Quite often there are different areas of control for local, state, and federal government and we sometimes like it (when it works in our favor) and sometimes hate it (when it works against us).

Take for example the "sanctuary cities" mess in Texas. Local governments have authority; the state government has authority; the federal government has authority. The state government wants to stipulate that the local government can't opt out of helping the federal government with immigration laws. In other words, it wants to pre-empt the local governments. This would make local government subservient to the state government in that particular respect. Before, it wasn't the case that the local government was "above" the state government: Each had their sphere of authority. I'm not sure if the state, when taking this authority from local governments, is making itself subservient to the federal government: Can the state of Texas as a whole decide not to cooperate with ICE in immigration enforcement? Dunno. (Oddly, I haven't seen that question even asked.)

The reverse situation has more often been defended: The cities get to decide not to cooperate in enforcing federal law, so states and local jurisdictions are "above" the federal government--state and local rights that (D) can get behind. However, states and cities that have passed laws to enforce federal law have been routinely blocked by the courts: When it comes to active enforcement, the federal government calls the shots and is clearly above local and state governments. (Some cities seem to be trying to get around this principle when it comes to international relations for climate control; let's see if the courts are consistent.) Anyway, Texas seems to be trying to make the rule go in both instances: If the feds want to enforce the law, the local government has to help them.

It's the same with environmental, marijuana, and many other kinds of laws and regulations (with three clearly marked levels: local, state, federal).

BTW, most churches and synagogues and mosques don't have all "that much" money. We hear about 5 examples and incorrectly generalize that very non-random, cherry-picked sample over a hundred thousand religious organizations: this is a logical fallacy often called "hasty generalization" or "overgeneralization". Imagine doing that with a racial sub-population: Pick 5 wealthy Latinos and then say they're representative of all Latinos. Some do it with African-Americans: They look at a handful of poor blacks on welfare and generalize over the entire population. Either leads to outrage, but only because we care about minority rights and treating them fairly or more than fairly. But even a valid generalization ("blacks on average have a lower median income than whites&quot which we then apply to each individual is called a "stereotype". Continue the "blacks on average" valid generalization where it can't logically go and you get, "therefore Barack Obama's family income is lower than the median for whites". They're at least in the top 5%.

Moostache

(11,179 posts)
2. Its time for Islamic schools to start demanding THEIR equal freedom / rights ...
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:48 AM
Jun 2017

We'll see just how much "religious freedom" these cocksuckers are interested in then...in about a millisecond.

cstanleytech

(28,471 posts)
5. This would apply to them as well as long as it's purely a secular issue though I do wish
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:56 AM
Jun 2017

the court had issued a more narrow ruling in the case like say that it's ok in this case but only if the playground is open to the general public as well.

cstanleytech

(28,471 posts)
4. About what I suspected to be honest. nt
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 10:52 AM
Jun 2017

Solly Mack

(96,943 posts)
7. That's what the collection plate is for. Otherwise, start paying taxes.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:01 AM
Jun 2017

Igel

(37,535 posts)
16. What's the goal of the program?
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 12:00 PM
Jun 2017

To help specific groups of kids or to help kids?

If it's to help specific groups, if we want government to specifically say, "We're doing this for all kids, but not, let's say, Muslim kids," then that's one thing.

If the goal is to help kids, then any playground that otherwise fits the legislation should be included.

Here's text from the grant application (https://dnr.mo.gov/pubs/pub2425.pdf):

Public school districts, private schools, park districts, nonprofit day care centers, other nonprofit entities and governmental organizations other than state agencies are eligible to submit applications. Privately owned, residential backyard areas, and private in-home day care centers are ineligible.


If it was just playgrounds supported by the state of Missouri, you'd have a point. But this was to help the children of Missouri without helping for-profit businesses or individual families.

This is a tough case because suddenly making a playground safe for an Islamic or SDA or Catholic school or playground is seen as supporting a specific religion. Since all would be covered, it might be seen as state support for religion in general (although I'm not sure who would have an equal bias to LDS, SDA, Catholic, and Islamic schools). Now, I've seen some playgrounds behind fences at churches (and public schools). Usually it's either to reduce legal liability--what happens if a kid hurts himself at 3 a.m.?--or it's to stop vandalism.

Solly Mack

(96,943 posts)
17. Thanks for the added input
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 12:04 PM
Jun 2017
 

vkkv

(3,384 posts)
9. Duplicate Post as 7:21 am.. Exactly the same source, piece.. write Robert Bartnes at WaPo
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:07 AM
Jun 2017

BumRushDaShow (25,733 posts)


Supreme Court sides with Missouri church in major church-state decision over use of public funds
Source: Washington Post

Trinity Lutheran Church in Columbia, Mo., wanted to participate in a state program that reimbursed the cost of rubberizing the surface of playgrounds. But the state said that was not allowed. The exclusion raised big questions about how to uphold the Constitutions prohibition on government support for religion without discriminating against those who are religious.

This is a developing story. It will be updated.

UPDATE:

The Supreme Court concluded its work for this session on Monday siding with religious institutions in a major church-state decision. The court ruled 7-2 that religious institutions may not be excluded from state programs with a secular intent — in this case, making playgrounds safer.

Missouri’s state constitution, like those in about three dozen states, forbade government from spending any public money on “any church, sect, or denomination of religion.”

Trinity Lutheran Church in Columbia, Mo., wanted to participate in a state program that reimburses the cost of rubberizing the surface of playgrounds. But the state said that was not allowed. The exclusion has raised big questions about how to uphold the Constitution’s prohibition on government support for religion without discriminating against those who are religious.
Trinity Lutheran Church in Columbia, Mo., wanted to participate in a state program that reimburses the cost of rubberizing the surface of playgrounds. But the state said that was not allowed. The exclusion has raised big questions about how to uphold the Constitution’s prohibition on government support for religion without discriminating against those who are religious.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/06/26/supreme-court-sides-with-missouri-church-in-major-church-state-decision-over-use-of-public-funds/
2

elleng

(141,926 posts)
10. 'religious institutions may not be excluded from state programs with a secular intent
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:09 AM
Jun 2017

— in this case, making playgrounds safer.'

As is frequently the case, the headline misleads (imo.)

'Trinity Lutheran Church in Columbia, Mo., wanted to participate in a state program that reimburses the cost of rubberizing the surface of playgrounds. But the state said that was not allowed. The exclusion has raised big questions about how to uphold the Constitution’s prohibition on government support for religion without discriminating against those who are religious.

Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., who authored the opinion, wrote, “The exclusion of Trinity Lutheran from a public benefit for which it is otherwise qualified, solely because it is a church, is odious to our Constitution . . . and cannot stand.”'

Freethinker65

(11,203 posts)
11. Is the playground, while located at a church, used freely by ALL children of the community?
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:10 AM
Jun 2017

If so, then I can see the original program being set up as a safety issue to protect all children from injuries, and there was really no reason to deny the funding. If the playground is effectively walled off and/or gated and used only by children of church members, or those enrolled in a private religious affiliated school, then I would hope the court would have upheld the right to deny funds.

FailureToCommunicate

(14,605 posts)
12. +1
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:12 AM
Jun 2017
 

vkkv

(3,384 posts)
13. DU front page, Same piece only two stories down..
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 11:13 AM
Jun 2017

Yikes, from a forum host..

Bernardo de La Paz

(60,320 posts)
18. Duplicate post 2 posts earlier in LBN on home page.
Mon Jun 26, 2017, 12:46 PM
Jun 2017
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