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Equinox Moon

(6,344 posts)
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 09:10 PM Sep 2017

40-year campaign to exhume baby's body produces empty coffin

Source: Guardian

A mother who campaigned for more than 40 years to find out what happened to her dead baby’s remains has found out his coffin was buried without a body inside.

Lydia Reid, 68, was given a court order for the exhumation of the grave of her son Gary, who died at the Royal Hospital for Sick Children in Edinburgh in July 1975 aged seven days old. But no human remains were found.

The NHS in Scotland was forced to admit to having unlawfully retained about 6,000 organs and tissues in hospitals between 1970 and 2000, many of which belonged to children.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/01/40-year-campaign-to-exhume-babys-body-produces-empty-coffin



I wonder if Scotland has learned anything helpful after years of testing human tissue? Any big breakthroughs from all this? If this was in America there would be MANY lawsuits.
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40-year campaign to exhume baby's body produces empty coffin (Original Post) Equinox Moon Sep 2017 OP
Life imitating art again (in a sense) sandensea Sep 2017 #1
Probably won't be popular but Egnever Sep 2017 #2
That's very decent of you sandensea Sep 2017 #3
I'm safe, then Orrex Sep 2017 #11
LOL! joshdawg Sep 2017 #15
I agree, 100% Demonaut Sep 2017 #5
Some religions require you to be buried intact. meadowlander Sep 2017 #19
Religions require all kinds of things Egnever Sep 2017 #21
I'm an atheist meadowlander Sep 2017 #24
Yea sorry Egnever Sep 2017 #25
It is hard to understand why some would be against donating their organs xor Sep 2017 #20
Not hard at all for me to understand. LisaL Sep 2017 #23
I wonder if some of the "donors" SCVDem Sep 2017 #4
Here is another link, from an Edinburgh Newspaper.. (Edinburghnews-Scotsman) Stuart G Sep 2017 #6
Here is another link from the Telegraph,.,.(another major paper in England) Stuart G Sep 2017 #7
Here is the BBC link..it has the most information..and be warned.. Stuart G Sep 2017 #8
Unbelievable that the parents were treated so shabbily and lied to. SharonClark Sep 2017 #9
What the eff could they have saved dead baby parts for in 1974? hedda_foil Sep 2017 #10
It wasn't as common, but it was happening. Gore1FL Sep 2017 #12
Thanks for the info. hedda_foil Sep 2017 #13
I am very sorry MontanaMama Sep 2017 #14
That's how I feel too. Equinox Moon Sep 2017 #16
Another Possibility - Baby Selling packman Sep 2017 #17
She was shown a body of a baby she didn't believe was hers. Maybe her son isn't dead? LisaL Sep 2017 #22
For years it was not unusual to take organs and tissue without consent csziggy Sep 2017 #18
 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
2. Probably won't be popular but
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 09:30 PM
Sep 2017

I think organ donation should be mandatory.

My box has been checked since I was 16. Never made sense to me why someone would not want their organs to help someone else after they were dead.

That said pretty shitty what this hospital did.

sandensea

(21,596 posts)
3. That's very decent of you
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 09:36 PM
Sep 2017

Just be careful in certain places like Thailand or Brazil, where organs from healthy individuals (particularly if white) can have quite a price tag on them.

meadowlander

(4,387 posts)
19. Some religions require you to be buried intact.
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 03:20 PM
Sep 2017

Not that I think that's a particularly good reason not to donate your organs, but I also don't think the state should be telling people what to do with their body parts, particularly when it is anathema to their religious convictions.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
21. Religions require all kinds of things
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 03:37 PM
Sep 2017

Some are followed see aren't. I don't have a lot of patience for religion being the excuse.

I get it but I don't really accept it as a valid reason unless you are strictly following everything in the stupid book. Like stoning your wife and whatever other goofy things that are ignored.

When it is the word of God I lose all respect when it is selectively believed. Don't want them messing with my body because God but I will have an affair god didn't really mean that....

Religion has it's place and gives many peace but using it as an excuse to ignore good science is where I lose religion

Often it is just cherry picked to support whatever you happen to be engaged in at the moment.

meadowlander

(4,387 posts)
24. I'm an atheist
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 07:46 PM
Sep 2017

which is why I said above I don't think religion is a good reason not to donate our organs.

However, I also don't think it is the place of the government to make organ donation "mandatory" as you suggest, in part because I don't think the state should have the power to dictate how people dispose of their own bodies. The point about religion is simply to provide an example of some groups that would be disadvantaged if the state did have that power.

Frankly, even as an atheist, I would be squicked out by a requirement to donate my body to science after I die with no say in how it would be used. Who knows what medical students get up to. I'm an organ donor and would consider donating my body to science but only under certain specific conditions which I think I have the right to negotiate without government interference.

 

Egnever

(21,506 posts)
25. Yea sorry
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 10:14 PM
Sep 2017

Did not mean that to be directed at you. Just religion in general.

I hear you and I get it freaks folks out. Just find the organ donation part odd. Wouldn't suggest the entire body is donated to science but organ donation seems like a no brainier to me.

Do not really expect anyone to agree as people get weird about it . Just personally never understood why you would not want a part of your death to give someone else more life.

xor

(1,204 posts)
20. It is hard to understand why some would be against donating their organs
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 03:31 PM
Sep 2017

I mean, assuming there isn't any widespread shadiness in which hospitals are quicker to declare someone dead just so they can harvest their organs. Not sure if that's something that is an irrational concern, or if it's something that happens.

If it was mandatory then I would think that would reduce the motivations behind any such activities.

Stuart G

(38,410 posts)
6. Here is another link, from an Edinburgh Newspaper.. (Edinburghnews-Scotsman)
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 10:02 PM
Sep 2017
http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/crime/mother-s-anguish-after-discovering-her-baby-s-empty-coffin-1-4549040

The story might be the same, but this is the home town of the event, perhaps there is more news than is in the OP...What a horrific story..

Stuart G

(38,410 posts)
7. Here is another link from the Telegraph,.,.(another major paper in England)
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 10:12 PM
Sep 2017

This story has a little more information..might be worth looking at, short article easy read.

Also, more information on what might have happened to the baby..something about body parts being stored in 25 hospitals around the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/01/mother-finds-babys-coffin-empty-42-year-battle-discover-happened/

Stuart G

(38,410 posts)
8. Here is the BBC link..it has the most information..and be warned..
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 10:17 PM
Sep 2017

pictures of what was found inside the coffin....It is the most inclusive of the articles..but I got to leave this one ...It is a sickening story.....Below is the BBC link

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-41122888

hedda_foil

(16,371 posts)
10. What the eff could they have saved dead baby parts for in 1974?
Fri Sep 1, 2017, 10:55 PM
Sep 2017

Transplants weren't done that far back, so there was no medical use for them. It's not like they could have sold kidneys for transplant unless they were heavily invested in dead baby futures.

MontanaMama

(23,294 posts)
14. I am very sorry
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 12:35 AM
Sep 2017

for Ms. Reid's profound loss. It seems she lost her son Gary twice. The fact that she suspected he wasn't in his casket all these years must have been torture for her.

Equinox Moon

(6,344 posts)
16. That's how I feel too.
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 11:07 AM
Sep 2017

If people want to donate their body knowingly, that is one thing. But to do this without her knowledge is the crime here.

 

packman

(16,296 posts)
17. Another Possibility - Baby Selling
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 01:13 PM
Sep 2017

She was shown the body of a baby - perhaps not hers. Forgive me for saying, but a person that wanted a baby and had enough money ---

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
22. She was shown a body of a baby she didn't believe was hers. Maybe her son isn't dead?
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 04:34 PM
Sep 2017

"This baby was blond and big, my baby was tiny and dark-haired. This was not my son."
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-41122888

csziggy

(34,131 posts)
18. For years it was not unusual to take organs and tissue without consent
Sat Sep 2, 2017, 01:31 PM
Sep 2017

That is how the HeLa line of cells was obtained - without the patient or the family consenting to the taking or the use.

Henrietta Lacks’ ‘Immortal’ Cells
Journalist Rebecca Skloot’s new book investigates how a poor black tobacco farmer had a groundbreaking impact on modern medicine
By Sarah Zielinski
smithsonian.com
January 22, 2010

Medical researchers use laboratory-grown human cells to learn the intricacies of how cells work and test theories about the causes and treatment of diseases. The cell lines they need are “immortal”—they can grow indefinitely, be frozen for decades, divided into different batches and shared among scientists. In 1951, a scientist at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland, created the first immortal human cell line with a tissue sample taken from a young black woman with cervical cancer. Those cells, called HeLa cells, quickly became invaluable to medical research—though their donor remained a mystery for decades. In her new book, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks, journalist Rebecca Skloot tracks down the story of the source of the amazing HeLa cells, Henrietta Lacks, and documents the cell line's impact on both modern medicine and the Lacks family.

Who was Henrietta Lacks?
She was a black tobacco farmer from southern Virginia who got cervical cancer when she was 30. A doctor at Johns Hopkins took a piece of her tumor without telling her and sent it down the hall to scientists there who had been trying to grow tissues in culture for decades without success. No one knows why, but her cells never died.

Why are her cells so important?
Henrietta’s cells were the first immortal human cells ever grown in culture. They were essential to developing the polio vaccine. They went up in the first space missions to see what would happen to cells in zero gravity. Many scientific landmarks since then have used her cells, including cloning, gene mapping and in vitro fertilization.

There has been a lot of confusion over the years about the source of HeLa cells. Why?
When the cells were taken, they were given the code name HeLa, for the first two letters in Henrietta and Lacks. Today, anonymizing samples is a very important part of doing research on cells. But that wasn’t something doctors worried about much in the 1950s, so they weren’t terribly careful about her identity. When some members of the press got close to finding Henrietta’s family, the researcher who’d grown the cells made up a pseudonym—Helen Lane—to throw the media off track. Other pseudonyms, like Helen Larsen, eventually showed up, too. Her real name didn’t really leak out into the world until the 1970s.

Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/henrietta-lacks-immortal-cells-6421299/#H4TePrOf5eHGBGZV.99


Tissue Rights and Ownership: Is a Cell Line a Research Tool or a Person?
Posted on March 9, 2010 by Claire Devine

To doctors, the HeLa cell line is an invaluable tool in the treatment of disease; to the Lacks family, it is an invaluable piece of their mother. The HeLa cell line, the first “immortal” cell line, is the solution to overcoming many impediments in biomedical research, and a key tool in developing certain cures and drugs that have the potential to improve the lives of millions of people. That collection of cells derives from the now-deceased Henrietta Lacks, an African-American mother from Baltimore, Maryland, kept alive for decades without her children’s knowledge or permission. The shock and discomfort they felt upon learning of this, coupled with the lack of any disclosure, seeking of informed consent on the part of HeLa cell researchers, or share of the vast financial benefit that accrued to the physicians and researchers, serves as an emotional counterbalance to the utility these cells represent. Her cells’ story raises many difficult questions regarding ‘tissue rights,’ including questions about ownership rules, the role of informed consent, and the fair distribution of profit. Do patients still own tissue cells once they have been removed from their bodies? Do doctors have the duty to ensure their patients understand that these cells may be cultured and preserved, and to share any profits from selling the cells?

HeLa’s Immortal Cell Lines
The development of “immortal” cell lines led to major improvements in research and experimentation; unlike most cells, these cells do not die of old age. Immortal cell lines are significant because of their ability to grow indefinitely and to survive being divided and shared; these traits allow scientists to engage in more productive research. Scientists created the first immortal cell line, dubbed HeLa, almost 60 years ago, in the 1950s. Since then, scientists have used HeLa cells to develop the polio vaccine, as well as drugs that treat Parkinson’s disease and leukemia. Scientists even sent cells from the line into space to aid in research on the effects of zero gravity on human tissue. Overall, scientists have produced more than two thousand pounds of these cells, the sales of which have generated millions in profits.

The Personal Side to the Story
Recently, renewed interest in this cell line has focused on its origin rather than its results. In this case, scientists named HeLa cells after the patient in whom they first found them: Henrietta Lacks. Lacks suffered from a particularly virulent strain of cervical cancer and, after unsuccessful radium treatment, died in 1951 at Johns Hopkins Hospital, Maryland. Without Lacks’ knowledge or consent, her doctor shared a sample of her tumors with a researcher, Dr. George Gey, intent on developing an immortal cell line. With Lacks’ tumor cells, the researcher succeeded in making the line that led to medical advancements and high profits.

This behind-the-back cellular research and development story has recently become the subject of controversy. “Tissue rights” scholars now question whether or not patients should retain any control over cells removed from their body. Currently, cells be bought and sold without the patients’ permission, but tissue rights advocates suggest that these often-unwitting donors deserve a share in the profits their cells eventually reap.
http://stlr.org/2010/03/09/tissue-rights-and-ownership-is-a-cell-line-a-research-tool-or-a-person/
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