George Galloway sacked as political columnist for rape remarks

[oberliner]

Source: The Guardian

George Galloway has been sacked as a columnist on the Scottish political magazine Holyrood after he refused to retract his widely condemned remarks about the rape charges facing Julian Assange.

Mandy Rhodes, the editor of Holyrood, said the Respect party MP's remarks that Assange was guilty of just "bad manners" by failing to ask permission to have sex with a sleeping woman, had left her "frankly gobsmacked".

Rhodes said she had not always agreed with Galloway's views in the past but had respected his integrity, his role as an "effective thorn in the side of the establishment", and his stance on Iraq.

However, she said it was impossible for him to continue his column following his remark that having sex with a sleeping woman was "not rape as anyone with any sense can possibly recognise it" if she had already had sex with that man.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/aug/22/george-galloway-sacked-holyrood-rape?newsfeed=true

[Proletariatprincess]

1. Gallaway has a point.

I am a strong feminist and a great admirer of George Gallaway. I am also a supporter of Julian Assange and believe that these charges are a set up. Perhaps that colors my opinion on this issue, but I think not. I am sure she woke up when he proceeded to make love to her. If she said no, and he forced himself on her that could be rape. We don't know that is what happened. But rape charges seem obsurd in this case.

[spooky3]

3. No, he doesn't. You are incorrect about what constitutes rape.

The person initiating the act has the obligation to obtain consent in advance from the other party. This is not the same as not pushing after someone says no. If the 2nd party is asleep or otherwise unconscious, then by definition, s/he could not have given consent at that time.

What allegedly happened in the Assange case is completely irrelevant, because Galloway made general comments. If Assange did none of the things that the Swedish government wants to question him about, Galloway's comments are still completely inappropriate and sexist. As noted in the article:

"'There is no excuse, ever, for sex without consent, and regardless of the details of the Assange case, Galloway's comments and inappropriate language about rape per se are alarming,' Rhodes said in a statement on the magazine's website."

[reorg]

25. except Galloway never "excused sex without consent"

This editor is peddling (her) impressions, disregarding what he meant and what he actually DID say.

[leveymg]

29. An interlude of sleep does not constitute withdrawal of consent. If it did, we'd all be in jail.

Sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't rape. Besides, read the actual complaint. She didn't tell him to stop:

http://rixstep.com/1/20110131,00.shtml
The Assault

They sat on the bed and talked and he took off her clothes again. They had sex again and she discovered he'd put the condom only over the head of his penis but she let it be. They fell asleep and she woke by feeling him penetrate her. She immediately asked 'are you wearing anything' and he answered 'you'. She told him 'you better not have HIV' and he replied 'of course not'. She felt it was too late. He was already inside her and she let him continue. She couldn't be bothered telling him again. She'd been nagging about condoms all night long. She's never had unprotected sex. He said he wanted to come inside her, he didn't say when he'd done it but he did it. There was a lot running out of her afterwards.

It may also significant that no one else has ever been charged with rape under similar circumstances. Don't you think?

[Kelvin Mace]

34. No, but consent granted conditional of a condom

means you have to use a condom. If you don't, then it is rape. If the woman did NOT consent to sex without a condom, that is the condition for sex, asleep or awake.

[leveymg]

37. Rape isn't defined that way. Rape is coerced sex. Consensual sex without coercion is not rape.

One does not have to obtain fresh consent for every sex act on the same occasion. It's not a commercial transaction.

[TriplD]

39. So every time my girlfriend woke me up with a BJ I was being raped?

Doesn't that demean the term?

[leveymg]

40. Until you said, "yes. . . Yes. YES!"

Yes, by the absurd never-been-applied this way before in any court in the world interpretation.

[wordpix]

4. +1 AND apparently this "rape" charge occurred after the woman discovered he was sleeping with

someone else around the same time.

Did the woman report the "rape" immediately after? Did she go to hospital right away?

[Kelvin Mace]

6. Why are you using

conservative talking points about rape?

For a variety of rational reasons, a woman may not report a rape, nor go to a hospital, especially if she fear people putting quotation marks around the word "rape".

I have known a few women in my day who were raped and didn't report it because their rapist was a "popular" guy and by accusing them, they would be subjected to the same accusations and denigrations that I am reading on this matter.

[reorg]

23. Why are you using talking points

instead of referring to the actual case?

[Kelvin Mace]

36. Gee, what talking points am I using?

You put the quotes around "rape", so I am addressing your words.

[Kelvin Mace]

5. Sorry, I beg to differ...

I am sure she woke up when he proceeded to make love to her. If she said no, and he forced himself on her that could be rape.

If she said no, there is no "could be rape" about it. It IS rape.

You are "sure" she woke up "when he proceeded to make love to her."

Well, that is kind of immaterial to the legal questions since he is accused of "unlawful coercion" and having sex without a condom with another woman against her express wishes.

A woman has a right to deny a man intercourse if he refused to comply with her requirement that he use a condom. If he has intercourse with her consensually (using a condom), then begins intercourse with her later while she is sleeping without a condom, she may very well wake up, but still be unaware that he is NOT using a condom until after he ejaculates.

Since she made consensual sex conditional on condom use while she was awake, the condition doesn't change just because she falls asleep.

Sorry, but I am not going to demonize two women and call them liars just because I happen to like what the guy is doing.

[ZombieHorde]

13. He put his dick in her without permission.

Permission to have sex once is not permission to have sex twice.

If she had said, "If I fall asleep, feel free to throw it in," then he would have had permission.

[Scairp]

19. They were sleeping in the same bed

She wanted him there. I didn't know two people who were engaging in, at the very least, a short term consensual relationship have ever said that to one another. I can't imagine saying to a new lover, hey if I'm asleep don't even dare. I can't imagine it would occur to most people to have this discussion in bed. It sounds weird.

[reorg]

22. no, he took the condom off without her permission (allegedly)

different thing.

[ZombieHorde]

24. My understand was he initiated a second encounter while she was unconscious.

Is that inaccurate?

[reorg]

27. not sure what you mean by "encounter"

if you count attempts to reach orgasm, there must have been some four, five or more in that "encounter". In between the last and the second to last, they both "dozed off" for a while before they continued, and somehow, allegedly, the condom came off.

Perhaps you should read it all by yourself before making comments?

[Kelvin Mace]

31. Here is an AFP story detailing the charges

She told the court the first complainant, identified only as Miss A, said she was victim of "unlawful coercion" on the night of August 14 this year in Stockholm.

The court heard Assange is accused of using his body weight to hold her down in a sexual manner.

The second charge alleged Assange "sexually molested" Miss A by having sex with her without a condom when it was her "express wish" one should be used.

The third charge claimed Assange "deliberately molested" Miss A on August 18 "in a way designed to violate her sexual integrity".

The fourth charge accused Assange of having sex with a second woman, Miss W, on August 17 without a condom while she was asleep at her Stockholm home.

http://www.swedishwire.com/politics/7570-the-charges-against-julian-assange

[Scairp]

21. I think both of us have gotten off topic

I have been discussing the merits of the case against Assange which is not what this story is about. It's about this man claiming that a woman cannot be raped in this manner. I've stated my opinion about the charges against Assange, but failed to make comments about what this columnist said. Leaving Assange out of it, if a man begins to have sex with a woman who is sleeping in the same bed and with whom he'd had sex with earlier in the day/evening, and she says no or in any way makes it obvious she doesn't consent then he is guilty of rape, period.

[randome]

26. NO thread about Assange can be discussed reasonably on DU.

I would think that is obvious by now.

[Scairp]

30. I can agree with that N/T

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Or, if she has consented to sex only with the use of a condom

then having sex with the person without one is rape.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. No, he has no point. And, yes, your opinion is deeply colored.

Leave out whether the charges are real or not. Leave out others motivations. When you strip away all the speculation and focus on the ACTUAL topic, and that is what Galloway said, then it is clear he is defending (or at least excusing) rape! Poking your pecker in a sleeping person is never anything BUT rape. I guess "never" is to restrictive. I would say an exception would be if the sleeping person gave prior PERMISSION. Without permission, it is rape!

[Rabid_Rabbit]

2. If you believe that women are the property of men

it is easy to come out with statements like that. Much like the asinine argument that husbands could not rape their wife.

[Kelvin Mace]

7. Agreed....

I am very disappointed to see this kind of argument on this board.

[theHandpuppet]

17. Ditto that

Frankly, I'm left speechless.

[newthinking]

8. Deleting my comment: I had not read fully what he implied

[newthinking]

9. Just re-read his comments. They were indeed innappropriate

It should go to court. The US and UK should stop standing in the way and make an agreement.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. I wrote a reply before you edited

Since you have edited and are rethinking, I will edit too. Thank you.

[greiner3]

10. What Progressive statements;

Are posted here!

Neither of the two women have accused Julian of sexual misconduct. One woman has an issue of a broken condom. She inquired to the police, two days after the fact, if she could get Julian to have a test looking for STDs. The other woman, who is friends with the first one, accompanied her to the police station. At first she had no complaint. It was only after several days of questioning by the police that she said she had 'sex while asleep' with Julian. Even the police are not saying this was non consensual.

Who has not gotten amorous while next to their slumbering significant other. A little touching leads to caresses leads to heavy foreplay leads to, well, midnight sex. At what point would an non drugged (by all accounts) person NOT awake? She did not, at any point, say she said NO.

If she had said no or there were extenuating circumstances (drugs, taken by her or 'date rape,' alcoholic stupor, death (lighten up will ya!), etc...) then there would have been a HUGE problem, not that Julian is not in one now but not for RAPE. AGAIN, there is absolutely no evidence this is the case;rape.

Good Progressives need to search for the real facts before becoming a Ditto Head and not what the Swedish authorities 'leak' to the press, or what is said on Fox. As for the rest, get bent!

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. I'm struggling to find a single progressive statement in your post

and I can't. Yours is a regressive, reactionary, male-oriented rant, that assumes the woman is not allowed to say "sex with a condom is OK, but not without", and then allows the man to wait until she is asleep and go directly against her stated wishes.

Yes, they have accused him of sexual misconduct. There wouldn't be a case if they hadn't, would they? The woman, the police, and the Swedish and English law all say it was non consensual - because she was asleep.

I don't think you know the meaning of 'extenuating', by the way.

[Scairp]

18. How will this be proven?

She claims she was fast asleep but then she has to admit the reason he was in her bed was because she invited him there to have sex, and then they both fell asleep, so how are they going to prove it? Did she say no and make an attempt to stop the act and he held her down and forced her? I just don't know.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. It may or may not be provable

Many allegations of rape can come down to the man's word against the woman's. What she has said is that she was asleep, and awoke to find he had already penetrated her. If that is true, then it's rape under Swedish (and English) law, no matter if she didn't subsequently tell him to stop. He has not yet, as far as I know, given his side of this incident.

[Kelvin Mace]

16. The scenario you describe might have validity

provided:

1) It was a long established relationship in which both parties were familiar with each other and not just a casual hook up. (I havbe had that scenario in my marriage, but I have also had my wife tell me, "not now I'm too tired", and I stopped and let her be)

2) The issue was in fact a broken condom, not a "no condom at all" sneak attack.

The exact facts are not established at this point, so while I respect the presumption of innocence, I also refuse to denigrate the women involved because it is convenient to do so.

[Scairp]

20. I've read the report

It's been awhile but I do recall this. Sounds like they were both extremely pissed off, went to the police out of spite but it got out of hand and led to charges. I don't know about Sweden but in this country you cannot get the cops to force someone to be tested for STD's. You can get yourself tested which would be the logical thing, not running to the police. It sounds set up. I don't know if Assange did anything illegal or not, but it all sounds very fishy.

[Freddie Stubbs]

12. Galloway and Akin should form PR firm

[Scairp]

15. I read the charges

In a lengthy article some time ago, and they do seem very vague. They picked each other up, or knew each other slightly, I don't recall which, and were spending the day together. I'm pretty sure it was the day. As I recall at least one charge involves failure to use a condom without permission during consensual sex. I'm not quite sure how to think about this. When you sleep with someone you take some risks. A condom isn't a magic shield keeping everything out, nor are they foolproof, unpleasant things can get from one person to another with one. They do break from time to time. And why would he not give a thought to his own health, or had they run out by then and decided to throw caution to the wind and shag sans condom and she's just pissed because he had a relationship with another woman and she found out about it afterward? When you decide to take a man (or woman), home with you for the express purpose of having sex with that person you are taking risks, especially if you barely know them, or worse, if you don't know them at all. Shit happens. I think if she didn't know him very well no condom was the least of her worries. I don't know how they are going to prove this.

[tuvor]

42. Please remember, there are no charges; only allegations. n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

32. Good!

POS!

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. I admire George Galloway and I especially applaud his stand on the side of the victims of aggression

in the Middle East. However, he is way of line on this. Some people are just not very hip when it comes to some issue of sexuality. I cannot in fairness condemn it in Akin and condone it in Galloway. In one way the two men are somewhat similar. They both know what they believe to the point of absolute moral certainty. But they are also both loose cannons who frequently don't think carefully about what their words imply and they both are not very hip on very sensitive issues surrounding sexuality.