Decision by 2 Officers to Open Fire in Busy Midtown Leaves Bystanders Wounded (Emp St Bldg shooting)

[alp227]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by REP (a host of the Latest Breaking News forum).

Source: NY Times

As the two officers confronted a gunman in front of the Empire State Building on a busy Friday morning, they had to make a snap decision: Do they open fire in the middle of Midtown?

From a distance of less than 10 feet, the officers, Craig Matthews and Robert Sinishtaj, answered in unison; one shot nine times and the other seven.

Investigators believe at least 7 of those 16 bullets struck the gunman, said Paul J. Browne, the Police Department’s chief spokesman. But the officers also struck some, if not all, of the nine bystanders who were wounded.

This was the second time in two weeks that the police were involved in a fatal shooting in Midtown; on Aug. 11, two officers fired 12 shots at a knife-wielding man after he escaped arrest in Times Square.


Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/nyregion/police-decision-to-shoot-in-midtown-left-9-wounded.html

[rfranklin]

1. If there had been CCW citizens there, this would have never happened...

With their deadly accuracy and steady hands, they would have taken out the gunman with not one civilian casuality.

At least, that's what the denizens of the gungeon claim.

[xtraxritical]

3. Yeah, everybody knows what CCW means.

[Union Scribe]

18. Lol, cops shoot people and the first post

is whining about DU. Get over it, eh?

[xtraxritical]

2. They need 16 shots a distance of "less than ten feet"? Trained professionals?

[rfranklin]

4. You can speak authoritatively, having been in that situation so many times...

right?

[xtraxritical]

13. Yourself?

[Proletariatprincess]

14. Yes we can.

We can expect more from police officers who have sworn to protect and to serve. They work for us and this is not the wild west. Cops have to realize that being a police officer means taking some risk to protect the public. They do not put the public at risk to protect themselves. That is the job. Take it or leave it.
There are way too many people in the job who shouldn't be there at all. I am fed up with cops. There are not just a few bad apples....there are a few good apples and the rest should be unemployed.
Welcome to the new police state where cops do as they please with deadly force and fear no consequences.

[gopiscrap]

22. Thank you couldn't have said it better

most cops I know are nothing but power hungry arrogant assholes who have no accountability!

[truebluegreen]

15. Well, Thank Dog

they were trained! Or some innocent bystanders could have been hurt!




I'm new at this: where's the sarcasm thingie?

[slackmaster]

5. They turned an ordinary murder into a newsworthy "mass shooting"

Heckovajob.

[BeyondGeography]

6. Awful situation

Used to work across the street from the Empire State Building. Streets are packed at that hour. Did the gunman fire at the cops first? If not, what are the rules of engagement for the NYPD in such a situation? It's a miracle no one else was killed.

On edit, this doesn't appear to be by the book:

The Patrol Guide prohibits officers from firing their weapons if, “in their professional judgment, doing so will unnecessarily endanger innocent persons.”

Then again, it sounds like the gunman at least pointed his gun at them, so they will certainly say the response was necessary.

[Walk away]

8. The video clearly shows him raising his arm and aiming at the police.

Maybe suicide by cop.

[BeyondGeography]

11. No Jeffrey Johnson, no problem

One's ire must be reserved for him.

[Zoeisright]

16. My husband took "shoot don't shoot" training the police use.

For a fiction story he was writing.

There are three criteria: means, intent, and proximity.

The guy had the means: the gun. He had the intent: he lifted it. And the proximity: he was within range.

You go up the next level to stop the threat. The police were absolutely right to shoot to kill him. Period.

[glacierbay]

19. You are correct

they are trained not to shoot to kill, but to shoot to stop the threat, you got it right.

[FirstLight]

7. sounds like they didn't decide to shoot the suspect

they decided to UNLOAD their entire CLIP into the guy... wtf? aren't a couple shots enough?what about wounding him so he can stand trial?

[Walk away]

10. unless he drops the gun or hits the ground they are trained to fire until he is down.

All he had to do was lay down.

[Zoeisright]

17. Exactly.

[bbgrunt]

9. with all the mass shootings, it seems that police have

been given a rationale to just open fire in a crowded theater.

[Demonaut]

12. now this WILL be an example of million dollar bullets....after the lawsuits..nt

[LarryNM]

20. Wonder Who Will Pay Their Medical Bills n/t

[AnotherMcIntosh]

21. Or, Decision by Gunman to Draw a .45 on Officers in Busy Midtown Leaves Bystanders Wounded.

Another Google data dump to agitate DUers.

The NY Times' headline does not match the reasonable inference from the facts published in the NY Times' story. While the headline refers to "Decision by 2 Officers to Open Fire," and refers in the first paragraph to a "snap decision," it otherwise appears that the officers did not make a contemplative decision but reacted as trained police officers who were confronted by an emergency and threatening situation not of their own making.

As the story indicates:

As the two officers confronted a gunman in front of the Empire State Building on a busy Friday morning, they had to make a snap decision: Do they open fire in the middle of Midtown?

From a distance of less than 10 feet, the officers, Craig Matthews and Robert Sinishtaj, answered in unison; one shot nine times and the other seven.

They simultaneously reacted to the situation. They did not have the time to make a decision in the same manner that decisions are normally made outside of an emergency situation. They did not carelessly make a decision to just shoot a person who pulled a .45 out of a bag.

Nor did they carelessly shoot bystanders.

Many of the wounds to bystanders were “mostly in the lower extremity areas, such as legs and ankles, which would be consistent with some of the ricochet fragmented ballistics we found,” Mr. Browne said.

[REP]

23. Locking

This is an analysis piece, and as such, does not meet the SoP for this Forum. Please feel free to repost in GD or elsewhere.