Giuliani: 'Collusion is not a crime'

[Mrs. Overall]

Source: The Hill

President Trump's lawyer Rudy Giuliani on Monday dismissed the investigation into suspected collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, saying that collusion is “not a crime.”

“I have been sitting here looking in the federal code trying to find collusion as a crime,” Giuliani said on “Fox & Friends.”

“Collusion is not a crime.”

The president’s attorney maintained that his client is “absolutely innocent” and said that the recently released tapes of conversations between Trump and his former lawyer Michael Cohen prove that the president “didn’t do anything wrong.”

“I don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about Russians,” Giuliani said. “You start analyzing the crime — the hacking is the crime. The president didn't hack. He didn’t pay them for hacking.”

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/399461-giuliani-collusion-is-not-a-crime

[rsdsharp]

1. Conspiracy is, asshole.

[lagomorph777]

30. Yup, and the conspiracy is pretty obvious when you use TV as the back channel.

"Russia, if you're listening"

Well, from Mueller's recent indictment of the Russian hackers, we know Russia was, indeed, listening.

[spooky3]

53. And there are many other incidents that

Paint a conspiracy picture. And we know about only a tiny percentage of them, probably.

[lagomorph777]

62. Agreed. From the daily panic in Camp Trump, I'd say you're spot on.

[spooky3]

63. He's acting more guilty and desperate than crazy, to me. nt

[lagomorph777]

67. Yup.

[Beartracks]

56. IKR? The semantics angle is all they've got. n/t

[truthisfreedom]

59. Parse your way to freedom!

[bitterross]

79. Collusion is just a synonym for Conspiracy.

It's a softer, gentler way to say it.

[forgotmylogin]

103. "Collusion to commit Conspiracy" (n/t)

[olegramps]

84. He was contemplating his obvious lack of a navel. The answer; he slithered out of the swamp.

[olegramps]

93. Giuliani is a crime.

[johnp3907]

2. The pivot!

We knew it was coming.

[lagomorph777]

31. Parody is prediction these days

[jcgoldie]

61. NO COLLUSION! NO COLLUSION! ...

Ok so what if there was collusion?!?

[forgotmylogin]

91. Cue wacky montage of all the President's goons searching the White House...

Looking under chairs for "collusion".

[Historic NY]

3. Thats not what Merriam has to say...

[link:https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/collusion|]

: secret agreement or cooperation especially for an illegal or deceitful purpose

acting in collusion with the enemy

[theaocp]

8. I noticed he used the word, "about" instead of "with"

Dodgy language is the bread and butter of lawyers. Hopefully, it doesn't make any difference what with his gaping maw.

[LeftInTX]

52. Good catch....

"Colluding about Russia"

Sounds like a nonsense phrase to me....

[Fred Sanders]

15. So the fact collusion is a crime in the context of aiding a foreign enemy is literally the

dictionary definition?

Looks like Rudy has forgotten everything about criminal from law school to dictator defender.

But we all know the lies are for consumption by the pathetically weak minded and gullable cult.

[Historic NY]

19. Conspiracy, its time the media uses that word.

That is the crime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fred Sanders]

39. Yes, the collusion is not the crime, is it what the collusion is for. For instance I am colluding

with you right now to make sense of the word jibber jabber and we have! And it is not a crime...but colluding with a foreign government to steal an election...bet Rudy thinks no one would ever dream that up...even if it is plastered all over criminal code laws all over the world.

[Historic NY]

48. Any of these

Synonyms

design, intrigue, machination, plot, scheme

counterconspiracy, counterplot;

frame-up; manipulation, subterfuge, trickery;

artifice, contrivance, cover-up, dodge, draft, maneuver, stratagem, trick;

cabal, confederacy, ring; game, gimmick, racket;

ground plan, program, strategy, system;

collusion, complicity, connivance, conniving, conspiration

[sprinkleeninow]

65. Complicit in subversive collusion. n/t

[MrScorpio]

4. Next he'll be telling us that conspiracy and perjury aren't crimes either

[turbinetree]

14. If he gets Brett Kavanaugh on the bench its all moot.........................

he and his gang can run around all day long and commit treason...............

[secondwind]

5. They are getting crazier by the minute.

[Renew Deal]

6. Neither is yelling fire in a public theater

They just call it something else.

[Gothmog]

7. There is a great deal of good material on why collusion is illegal

President Obama's attorney has some good articles on this. Here is just one https://www.justsecurity.org/42387/collusion-russia-crime-part-iii-aiding-abetting/

It may be easier to appreciate the case to the contrary–that liability with the requisite intent could be imposed for these actions–by considering how the case could also be brought under ordinary “aiding and abetting” principles of the criminal law.

It is well understood that established “aiding and abetting” principles have wide, elastic application. The abettor is not required, of course, to have been “in on it” from the beginning. In Learned Hand’s classic formulation in United States v. Peoni, the law requires only “that he in some sort associate himself with the venture, that he participate in it as in something that he wishes to bring about, that he seek by his action to make it succeed.” The courts have defined in various terms this association, but what is required is “some affirmative conduct designed to aid in the success of a venture with knowledge that [the]actions would assist the perpetrator, the principal of the crime.” United States v. Cowart, 595 F.2d 1023, 1031(1979).

Note that the assistance constituting aiding and abetting does not have to be substantial. The accomplice liability provision of the federal campaign finance law, focused on “substantial assistance,” is, in that sense, stricter. ,So federal prosecutors proceeding on an “aiding and abetting” theory may have the latitude to reach a broader range of Trump campaign conduct in support of the Russian program.

It would not be the first time that Prosecutors would have enforced campaign finance law with an “aiding and abetting” charge. And they have evidence in the Trump/Russia case with which to work.

[Fred Sanders]

41. Thank you for that. Then there is the whole using the criminal hacking goods to collude....oops,

no collusion, just coordinating, assisting, aiding and abetting, encouraging, failing to report...all in collusion with each other in furtherance of a criminal enterprise by a foreign government...to steal a federal election.

No collusion, but there is that!

[amcgrath]

9. To summarize.

There was no collusion.
Mueller can't prove it happened.
Collusion isn't a crime.
And Trump didn't actually pay them for the hacked info.

Also Michael Cohen is a very fine upstanding man.
And Michael Cohen is a known liar, he's been lying for years

Thanks Rudy, for clearing that up.

[louis-t]

60. Uh, donnie dum dum doesn't 'pay' for anything.

He did suggest to them on camera that they hack Hillary.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

10. My client did not hold up that bank, but even if he did, that's not a crime. NT

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. This is about Stage 4 of fighting a retreating battle. Stage 5 is

Stage 5 is "It was a crime but we did it for the right reasons."

Stage 6 is "We don't talk about that part of history because we'll send you to a camp if you do."

[dalton99a]

12. +1

[oberliner]

13. Looking forward to Trump tweeting: "I never said there was no collusion"

[RestoreAmerica2020]

26. Seems the odious traitor is a bit anxious, why? Tuesday, July 31!

...He's and his sycophants have been working the 'no collusion' at nauseam, aling 28th unending attack on media, press. Why the build up? Manafort, over 30 witnesses...trial begins July 31

Los Angeles Times Logo
SUBSCRIBE
NEWSLETTER
POLITICS
All eyes on Paul Manafort's trial this week
By JOHN MYERS
JUL 30, 2018 | 3:00 AM

All eyes on Paul Manafort's trial this week
Essential Politics (Los Angeles Times) 6/30/18)

A major legal test for President Trump is now only hours away, but it’s not one that directly invokes the ongoing investigation into the 2016 election.

That’s not to say, of course, that the presidential contest and Russian interference won’t loom large over the proceedings.

[Fred Sanders]

42. Should be televised at least locally or on tape delay...on public interest grounds.

[turbinetree]

16. If a Russian makes "contact" with you, you are suppose to call the FBI

These upright citizens there Rudiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii never made the fucking call........................are you that fucking stupid.............. Or is the on to tight.............................


November 2018 cannot get here fast enough.......................vote

[Botany]

22. The Trump campaign was told on two different occasion that Russia wanted to interfere w/the ....

.... elections and if they (Russia) tried to contact you call the FBI ASAP.

[turbinetree]

68. Yepper, spot on............... and they never made the contact...................to the FBI.........

Traitors...................all of them, and now he trying to pack the court.................is next "guy" is meeting with Manchin III today....................I just can't wait to hear what he has to say.....................

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

17. It's true, there is no federal offense called "collusion" (except in antitrust law), but

there is also no crime called "whacking" or "offing." But murder is illegal, and so is conspiracy. Calling an act a name that doesn't define a crime in the statute books doesn't mean the act isn't a crime.

[Mrs. Overall]

18. Excellent point.

[Starseer]

36. Precisely.

The specific wording of the alleged crime is spelled out in an appropriate forum (e.g. the indictment, among others). The term "collusion" in this case is certain to be spelled out as "conspiracy" when the charges are laid.

As an aside, I am becoming convinced that Giuliani is either out of touch with reality, doesn't know how to represent a client any longer, or both. Were it not for Strickland, I'd be worried about Sixth Amendment shenanigans.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

43. Giuliani's behavior is way beyond ineffective assistance.

Or it would be if he were actually representing Trump in court. It's so bad it almost looks like intentional sabotage. If you were charged with littering and Rudy represented you, you'd probably end up in Supermax.

[NewJeffCT]

50. Rudy has not been an active lawyer

since the early 90s. His tenure as DA ended in 1989, then he worked in private law through 1992. I could not find any records of him actively representing a client during his private tenure. (I did not look very hard, admittedly)

He became mayor of NYC in 1993 and served there through 2001 during which he had his failed senate run versus Hillary in 2000. He then spent several years campaigning for other Republicans, leveraging his 9/11 popularity. In 2009, after his presidential bid tanked, he moved on to Giuliani Partners, a national security consulting firm.

[LiberalFighter]

51. His mind is likely syphillis pitted.

[underpants]

45. The press got lazy and stuck with the first word they heard

and I don't think was orchestrated like calling the A. R. R. A. "The stimulus" as the right wing media did. Regardless of whether it worked or not (it did) or to what degree they set it up to be knocked down.

[uponit7771]

81. +1

[spooky3]

55. Trump and his elves know this but when their

Case is as weak as it is, and your supporters are willing to accept any argument, you grasp at this straw.

[Native]

70. Touche

[Initech]

20. Somewhere Trump is going:

[Pluvious]

35. Only he doesn't call them attorneys, they are "TV Lawyers" nt.

[underpants]

47. 😳

[Snellius]

21. "Crime? What crime?", Raskolnikov said.

“Crime? What crime? ... My killing a loathsome, harmful louse, a filthy old moneylender woman ... and you call that a crime?”
― Fyodor Dostoyevsky

Trump seems to be confessing to crimes with which he hasn't even been charged.

[The_Counsel]

23. What We Have to Keep in Mind Here Is Rudy Guilliani Is a "TV Lawyer" Now...

His only job here is to win this case in the Court of Public Opinion. That's why he's always on TV running his face. It is where he is most useful.

Where you WON'T see Guiliani is in a courtroom or on hand at any deposition. If he were to use the "collusion is not a crime" defense there any judge worth his/her salt would laugh in his face--and he knows it.

[jalan48]

24. What happened to, "No collusion! No collusion!"?

[Ccarmona]

25. Rudy's Just Ginning Up the Base

His only real job is to advise and defend his client if charges are filed, anything else he says pure poppycock for the benefit of the Trumpsters

[elmac]

27. aiding and abetting (18 USC 2), conspiracy per se (18 USC 371),

18 USC 1030—fraud and related activity in connection with computers;

18 USC 1343—wire fraud; or 52 USC 30121—contributions and donations by foreign nationals.

[elleng]

34. Right

[elmac]

37. ol Rudy played the word switch game also

switched out conspiracy for collusion.

[elleng]

40. Of course!

Don't take him too seriously. Sleeping with dogs, ya know.

[Snellius]

28. TPM - Rudy's Big Admission?

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/rudys-big-admission

[elmac]

29. Over a year ago Fox news claimed that "collusion" with a foreign government violated no law

The fascist is just recycle goptv garbage.

[elleng]

32. He's right; 'conspiracy,' however, IS a crime.

[the_sly_pig]

33. Sedition is Treason.

What part of the Constitution or government has Drumpf protected? None of it. What has he tried to destroy for the benefit of foreign powers? All of it.

[Snellius]

46. Yes, using and aiding a foreign power to alter the outcome of a presidential election

Trump is afraid because he's finally learning how serious this crime is. The hard thing to prove is whether they knew the Russians were acting for the Russian government.

[honest.abe]

38. I believe the issue being investigated is whether the Trump team colluded with Russia...

to help Trump win the election in exchange for dropping sanctions against them if he should win.

That is a serious crime.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

44. But Rudy is trying to weasel out of it by claiming collusion isn't a crime.

And it's true that there is no federal crime that is called "collusion." However, colluding for the purpose of committing a crime is the for-real federal crime of conspiracy.

[honest.abe]

49. Its becoming clear what their game is.

They must know Mueller has the goods on Trump and others in his crime family and the hammer is coming down soon and hard. I think they know their only hope is keep brainwashing their supporters with this nonsense in the hope that once the indictments come down they will rise up and defend Trump to such an extent that the GOP will be afraid to do anything about it.

[SummerSnow]

54. Yay for Roodee, now tell your client to just confess to it.

[truthisfreedom]

57. Yeah, what's a little treasonous conspiracy between friends?

[truthisfreedom]

58. He purposefully misused the word to avoid saying "colluding with Russians"

“I don't even know if that's a crime, colluding about Russians,” he said.

[sprinkleeninow]

64. He did not do nothing wrong.

[miyazaki]

66. Hacking is the crime? Well then you also just admitted yourself and on behalf of your Drumpf client

that this investigation is not a witchhunt.

Fucking Rudolph, you just invested in another million dumb ass points.

[relayerbob]

69. There is no legal definition of collusion

However: Treason, conspiracy, cover-ups, witness threatening, money-laundering, breaking into voting booths to steal votes, breaking into servers to steal emails, slander and libel, ARE!! Can't wait to see you and all your buddies and clients wearing matching orange jumpsuits

[Jedi Guy]

71. Oh goodie, they trotted out the new talking points.

"He didn't do it, but even if he did, it wasn't a crime. Witch hunt!"

This "administration" is just surreal.

[KayF]

72. next he'll say paying for hacking isn't a crime

he'll say Mueller needs to prove that Trump personally sat down and wrote the hacking code.

[LiberalLovinLug]

73. Joe MccArthy is rollling in his grave

I know that even if you say...what if it were a Democrat
or what if this was say Hillary colluding with Maduro,
it is an unbelievable hypocrisy.

But even more jarring is if you put the present day GOP into the lens of the 50's Red Scare that was predominantly a Republican party onslaught with MccArthy at the top of the pile. Defending and protecting a Manchurian candidate, a twice divorced, cheating with porn stars President, beholden to a former Communist KGB officer who runs his country as a dictatorship. This AFTER the FBI, who used to be sacrosanct, found they definitely interfered in our elections and attacked our god-fearing nation.

[honest.abe]

74. This only makes sense to the angry racist clueless Trump supporters.

Which I am sure for whom this was targeted.

[ck4829]

75. From "Prove collusion happened" to "Prove this collusion was a crime"

[metalbot]

76. I actually view this is a VERY good development

Not the irritating one that most of the posts on this thread seem to think it is.

This is a big narrative shift, and it's a big step backwards for the Trump defense team. The fact that Guiliani is out there with this line now makes me think that they know that something big is coming, and he's been sent to get out ahead of it.

[ck4829]

77. Yep, they are boxing themselves in with this goalpost moving

[Gothmog]

78. Conspiracy is a crime

[Perseus]

87. Yes it is

col·lu·sion
k?'lo?oZH?n/
noun
noun: collusion

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.
"the armed forces were working in collusion with drug traffickers"
"trump and his minions colluded (conspired) with the Russians to rig the 2016 USA election thus making trump an illegitimate president."


"In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime.
Any questions?"

[RobinA]

80. No, Idiot,

crime is a crime. Grasp at straws, much?

[duforsure]

82. Gouliani's just another serial liar

Who probably is forced into doing this because trumps got a lot of dirt on him. trump wants everyone to believe everyone's a liar except him, and rudy is promoting that propaganda for him for pr to do like they did to Hillary, make everyone believe the others are corrupt , and criminal , not themselves. rudy and trump are making the case against himself even better the more they talk. These guys are really , really corrupt and have no intentions of being honest about anything, especially trying to hide treason against OUR country by trump.

[DonCoquixote]

83. er, the guy that sent the Mafia to jailm under RICO

now says to conspire is not a crime?
I guess he owes the Gambinos an apology. Hell, that family is less dangerous than the Trumps.

[Perseus]

85. Is Giuliani stupid, suffering from dementia, just ignorant?

But regardless, here you go:

col·lu·sion
kəˈlo͞oZHən/
noun
noun: collusion

secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

[yurbud]

86. Even if Russia did nothing illegal, if the did anything for him, it's a donation in kind, isn't it?

Foreign donations are illegal.

[struggle4progress]

88. "Don't miss our Fall fundraiser: Sniff Glue with Rudy!"

[Marcuse]

89. No Cooties! There is no proof of Cooties! Cooties are not a crime anyway!

[RainCaster]

90. Torturing incompetent attorneys is not a crime either

Let's begin with you.

[Hekate]

92. The words "bank heist" aren't in the federal codes either...

...as someone pointed out on MSNBC, trying to explain the nature of synonyms.

Conspiracy is a crime, and that's what we've got here.

[riversedge]

94. Rudy is becoming more ugly than Trump and that says a lot!

[ck4829]

95. "Collusion is not a crime"

[Shoonra]

96. Collusion with an adversary country is probably sufficient for impeachment

The offenses that will suffice for a presidential impeachment are not confined to conventional crimes, especially those set forth in legislation enacted after the Constitution was adopted (which means virtually all legislation), but are left to the good judgment of the Members of Congress.

Collusion with a foreign power, especially one considered hostile or adversarial, and especially for an unwholesome purpose like stealing an election, almost certainly falls within the category of impeachable offenses, even if it will not send someone to prison.

[duforsure]

97. Stupidity is not a crime

But doing something stupid that's illegal is. He's trying in desperation to play word games . but collusion when actively conspiring with an enemy to effect an election is. Their biggest enemy is the truth, and they're losing their battle . They know it too.

[Puzzler]

98. And "crime" is not "crime", or something

-Puzzler

[Linda Ed]

99. collusion is a crime

it's the same damn thing as conspiracy..rudy has been hit with dementia...or he needs to go back to law school

[Le Gaucher]

100. I thought Prostitution is a crime. Ghouliani is Trump's Prostitute. Trump is Russia's prostitute.

[duforsure]

101. Wonder what rudy did

To be working probably for nothing because trump and russia got dirt on him now?

[Soxderrube]

102. Something to think about

col·lu·sion
[kəˈlo͞oZHən]

NOUN
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

[OhZone]

104. Killing isn't a crime -

murder might be in some circumstances. But we're only talking killing here.