Trump: 'Robert E. Lee was a great general'

[Polybius]

Source: The Hill

President Trump praised Confederate Geader Robert E. Lee as "a great general" on Friday during a campaign rally in Lebanon, Ohio.

"So Robert E. Lee was a great general. And Abraham Lincoln developed a phobia. He couldn’t beat Robert E. Lee," Trump said before launching into a monologue about Lee, Lincoln and Ulysses S. Grant.

"He was going crazy. I don’t know if you know this story. But Robert E. Lee was winning battle after battle after battle. And Abraham Lincoln came home, he said, 'I can’t beat Robert E. Lee,'" Trump said.

"And he had all of his generals, they looked great, they were the top of their class at West Point. They were the greatest people. There’s only one problem — they didn’t know how the hell to win. They didn’t know how to fight. They didn’t know how," he continued.

Read more: https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/411237-trump-robert-e-lee-was-a-great-general

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. Didn't Lee surrender to Grant?

Who the hell does he think won the Civil War?

BTW, Grant was a native of Ohio, and Ohioans are quite proud of him.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

11. Guess he's going to Georgia next to praise General Sherman.

[Girard442]

18. Quick, get Hillary to tell him it's politically incorrect.

[TEB]

132. That should fire them up

Okay gong show humor I admit

[Cirque du So-What]

15. Cheeto Benito isn't trying to impress Ohioans who are proud of U.S. Grant

or any of the other Union generals from Ohio.

[oberliner]

28. Did you watch the video?

It seems like no one commenting on this actually viewed what was said.

[groundloop]

76. I won't watch the video, just had breakfast and I intend to keep it down

Seriously, you make a good point.... we should be better informed. It would be nice if someone could provide a synopsis of Spanky's comments beyond what was in the short original post.

[oberliner]

93. Fair enough

It seems that Trump (or whoever wrote his remarks / told him to tell this story) was trying to make a positive point about Grant as a way of pandering to the Ohio crowd. The thrust of the (probably apocryphal) anecdote seemed to be that Grant was a winner who was able to defeat a great general (Lee).

[atreides1]

129. True

But how he delivered his remarks...made it sound as if he were praising Lee!

Besides, Lee wasn't a great general...his first field assignment was commanding Confederate forces in western Virginia, where he was defeated at the Battle of Cheat Mountain and was widely blamed for Confederate setbacks.

Mostly, Lee was lucky because his Union opponents wouldn't press their advantage...at Antietam, even with Lee's plans in hand, and a chance to destroy the Army of Northern Virginia, McClellan hesitated! The Union won at Antietam, but if McClellan had acted quickly instead of dragging his feet, it's likely that the war could have been shortened!

The historian Shelby Foote stated, "Gettysburg was the price the South paid for having Robert E. Lee as commander."

[joe_stampingbull]

69. he was the only commander to surrender twice

At the beginning of the Civil War, he surrendered his US army post in San Antonio to a secesh mob. So he surrendered to both the US and to the rebels.

[Perseus]

70. Do not get angry at his comment

1. He doesn't really know who Lee was, he only knows he was a confederate general.
2. He does it because he knows he is going to piss most people who do not agree with him
3. He wants his white supremacist base to continue to love him

I bet if someone asked him history questions about Lee that he would not be able to answer any. He is a buffoon playing with people's minds.

My recommendation to everyone is to ignore him completely, I wish the media would start ignoring the man-child any time he says something like that.

Not only that, but when he talks about anyone whom he has not screwed, he will always say "great person", "really good guy", etc. He can't screw Lee because he is dead, so he is left to praise him, just to piss everyone.

[NNadir]

81. Americans in general should be proud of Grant, who despite much malignity, was not only...

...one of the greatest Generals in US history - maybe the greatest general, far outstripping that awful person Robert E. Lee in skill, in decency, and in patriotism - but also a great President.

It seems that historians are finally coming to the realization that Grant was the second most important President in the 19th century.

Without his Presidency modern America would not have been possible; his judicious use of his prestige, his founding role in the creation of international law in the Virginius crisis, and most importantly - although his vision was frustrated by the racists who hated and maligned him for his actions - for setting his country on the path to dealing with the massive and incredible racism that made slavery possible.

There is a very real reason that when he died, his contemporaries banded together to build what remains, to this day, the country's largest mausoleum/monument.

Grant was a great American and it's unsurprising to find an ignoramus like Trump - a racist - maligning him. Racists have always hated Grant, because he was least racist President in history up to that point, probably including even Lincoln.

Trump has never understood American greatness and works endlessly in fits of mental instability to destroy it. Of course he hates Grant; Grant held the country together, whereas he, like his equally incompetent predecessors, Pierce and Buchanan, is working to tear it apart.

[Marthe48]

83. Thank you

I learned about Grant in high school history, years ago, and he was under-rated to say the least. I mainly remember learning that he drank a lot.

I think I'll update my American history knowledge this weekend

Something I learned about 20 years ago: Lincoln required every rebel soldier to sign a loyalty oath before they got their citizenship back. Many refused and moved to Brazil, where there is an area called Little America. I just now wondered if the descendants of those renegades are helping undermine the U.S.A?

[NNadir]

87. My pleasure. I love to extol the wonderful legacy of PRESIDENT Grant.

I am very happy at the reassessment that is on going with respect to this great man and I applaud your willingness to learn more.

Thank you.

[Aristus]

90. I always admired Grant, but my admiration increased exponentially when I read 'Grant' by Ron Chernow

Chernow dispelled a lot of myths and misconceptions about Grant, mostly about the extent of his drinking (exaggerated reports stemming from the one time he reported for duty drunk as a young lieutenant), and about his tactical brilliance.

The myth goes that Grant only beat Lee because he had more men and was better supplied. Chernow goes into great detail about Grant's genius at planning and executing field operations.

Chernow also expounds on Grant's years of personal failure between the Mexican War and the Civil War. One feels awful for Grant and his unending series of career disasters. Then when the war comes, and Grant finds his feet as a large unit commander, one can feel one's heart soar with pride and admiration that he finally experienced success.

Grant was one of our greatest Generals ever, and a highly-underrated President.

My admiration for him knows no bounds.

[NNadir]

94. I agree. I think that Grant simply had a low tolerance for alcohol, but in no way...

...was an actual alcoholic. There is simply no evidence of dependency.

Many people, Cadwallader, famously, and probably Rawlins, wanted to magnify their own role in Grant's outstanding success by claiming to have helped in "managed" his drinking.

Grant managed himself quite well, thank you. His innate brilliance, coupled with his outstanding decency comes through to anyone who thinks clearly and takes a hard look. What he wasn't was a braggart, and I note the contrast with the man with tiny hands and a tiny mind who currently occupies the once exalted office Grant once held. Grant let his actions speak for themselves. The orange fool, by contrast, is a living demonstration of the Kruger-Dunning effect.

My oldest son has pretty much the same low tolerance for alcohol that may have characterized Grant. He drinks rarely, but when he does, he gets pretty drunk pretty quickly. Anyone who saw him at the one or two occasions alcohol has gotten the best of my son, might assume he was an alcoholic. Fortunately my son understands this about himself, and behaves accordingly, especially where driving is involved.

One of the great personal attributes that Grant had was his famous love for his wife. Her absence depressed him unless he was highly involved in work, which for much of the war he was. He may have gotten drunk a few times missing her, and his tolerance was low, but the seizure on this point in the life of a great man is small minded and frankly, illiterate.

As evidence of Grant's clear thinking, many can cite his Memoirs, which is considered the greatest book ever written by a US President, all the more remarkable because it was written when he was in great pain dying of cancer. Mark Twain - who admittedly had a financial interest in the work - called it the Greatest Military work since Caesar's "Commentaries." I haven't read enough military autobiographies to judge whether that is true, but I would not be surprised to learn it's not too far off the mark.

The prose describing the surrender scene, which Grant apparently wrote just days before he died, is simply some of the most beautiful prose I've read about the war - and I've read a lot - and summarizes the whole affair with simple but powerful language that is simply remarkable.

What General Lee’s feelings were I do not know. As he was a man of much dignity, with an impassible face, it was impossible to say whether he felt inwardly glad that the end had finally come, or felt sad over the result, and was too manly to show it. Whatever his feelings, they were entirely concealed from my observation; but my own feelings, which had been quite jubilant on the receipt of his letter, were sad and depressed. I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse. I do not question, however, the sincerity of the great mass of those who were opposed to us.

"...that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people had ever fought..."

What more can be said about that war?

I suspect that the emphasis on the role of drink in Grant's life was part, in many cases, and this includes the efforts of racists in maligning his Presidency as incompetent and corrupt, was involved with jealousy, opposition to his policy of human decency and resentment of his quiet greatness.

For all the complaints about his cabinet, criticism of which will be dwarfed by historical assessments to come of the sycophants around the orange fool, no man ever chose a better Secretary of State than Hamilton Fish. (We may compare that with the two most recent disgraces who have occupied office of Secretary of State.) That alone says something about the importance of Grant's Presidency, but of course, the 14th and 15th amendments which he willed into the Constitution, are possibly his greatest legacies, equally as important with his great victories in the Civil War.

[AllTooEasy]

109. White People Love Grant. Whatever!

I’m Black. Grant is responsible for the South’s rascist political infrastructure. He should have hung Lee, Davis, every confederate soldier, and politicalician who participated in the most treasonous campaign against America. Instead Grant chose to be SOFT. We can thank him for the decendants of the Confederacy running every aspect of the South now. He had the chance to nip it in the butt, and he didn’t. The only thing that changed in the South was the lack of slavery. The Southern culture remained.

And don’t give me that crap about him not having the political capital or the military might to make it happen. He had all that. He just didn’t care. He was complacent. He didn’t have the balls to make things right in the south.

Great general though!

[NNadir]

112. Really?

His suppression of the KKK, which didn't dare show its face to this country until Woodrow Wilson was being soft.

The 1871 military occupation of South Carolina - opposed by many of his contemporaries as the "bloody shirt" didn't count.

You would do well to open a history book, but apparently have never bothered to do so.

Grant cared a great deal, and a far more culturally aware black man than you apparently are, Frederick Douglass, was very proud of his relationship with Grant, who by the way, appointed Douglass to be the first African American US Ambassador.

Quoth Douglass:

“To [President and General Ulysses S. Grant] more than any other man the negro owes his enfranchisement and the Indian a humane policy. In the matter of the protection of the freedman from violence his moral courage surpassed that of his party; hence his place as its head was given to timid men, and the country was allowed to drift, instead of stemming the current with stalwart arms.”

— Frederick Douglass Papers, quoted in President Grant Reconsidered by Frank Scaturro

You, unlike Douglass, are confusing the actions of other men, the so called and self defined "reformers." Again, I'd advise opening a history book.

Your certainly not the first human being to malign Grant out of ignorance of who and what he was, but frankly, I couldn't care less. I, like Douglass, know who Grant was and am extremely unimpressed with your comment.

[pansypoo53219]

113. when i visited manhattan. i think his tomb was the 1st thing i went to see.

read pages in the comment book too.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

135. There's a biography of him that I want to read -

can't think of the author's name offhand - my brother just told me about, that discusses how Grant got a bad rap for drinking a lot, something which has been greatly exaggerated over the years, and that he really deserves a whole lot more credit than popular history gives him. I'll be reading that when I get a chance.

[NNadir]

136. You're probably referring to the Chernow book. There are several other major biographies that...

...have reassessed Grant's Presidency.

Most of them don't go as far as I do, since I regard him as the second most important and second greatest President of the 19th century.

I personally believe that if Lincoln had not been assassinated, the common assessment of him as the greatest President of the United States ever would not be nearly as consistent as it is.

Lincoln would have had to address the same issues that Grant did, a bitter and fragile peace, and actually until he was killed, he did not actually have the same contemporary prestige that Grant had. Grant was a sphinx; Lincoln wasn't, at least to their contemporaries.

In saying this, I am not maligning Lincoln; I actually believe that he deserves the common ranking as #1, but I insist that Grant - who saw himself as working to fulfill Lincoln's legacy and died in view of Lincoln's portrait - is nearly an equivalent.

The "intermediate" ranking to which Grant has now risen in historian polls still disgusts me. No one appreciates the magnitude of the task, just as few people appreciate the magnitude of his Overland military campaign, which finalized a horrid war.

Grant was simply the reification of what made America a great nation, and in the late 1870's - after his Presidency - everyone on the planet pretty much knew it, as is evidenced by the World Tour he took.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

137. I think that's the one. I'll be reading it as soon as I can get my hands on it.

[JonLP24]

121. It is disturbing he got cheers

When he mentioned Lee. Much like when got cheers for calling Mexicans rapist not that he gives he a crap about rape.

[gtar100]

2. What an idiot.

.

[Hoyt]

3. Guess he's bucking for NRA President. They had Confederate loving Prez a few years ago from Alabama.

[TreasonousBastard]

4. I answered an almost identical post a few minutes ago...

I saw the clip on CNN and Trump was simply explaining how Lincoln had the ability to find an even greater general to beat Lee.

As with all of Trump's stumping, historical accuracy was not the point-- comparing himself with Lincoln was.

[wasupaloopa]

5. One word Gettysburg

Another word Appamattox

[Skruffy]

6. Lee lost. Trump doesn't like losers.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

8. Lee lost, Grant won.

So it's odd that he'd be raving about Lee.

[Skruffy]

9. Brain fart, sorry. I meant...

[Ligyron]

7. Trump is a moran

That said, Lee was a great General. Excellent tactician.

[TomSlick]

13. A great tactician, who broke his oath as a U.S. Army officer.

I was raised in the south I know the argument, at the time people felt more loyalty to their state, etc. Nevertheless, he had taken an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. He violated that oath and took up arms against the United States, the very definition of treason.

[Lithos]

20. Lee was a very good General

He bears a bit of comparison to the British General Montgomery who was careful in his application and hesitant to the type of bold actions which are needed for victory.

Lee kept the South alive for 2 1/2 years against impressive odds, but was never going to "win" it for the South.

I respect Lee. He was tied more to the Revolutionary War type of thinking - loyalty to State before Country. He was complicated and flawed, yet given his time period a very admirable character...

That said, he is one for the Historians now to talk about. He is not the role model people need to use for the 21st Century.

L-

On Edit: It is also rather obvious Trump's use of Lee is a "dog whistle" to his racist supporters. Again why Lee is not appropriate for use as a role model in the 21st Century.

[kwassa]

31. Lee was also a racist that supported a traitorous cause.

Not much to admire there.

[Lithos]

34. The majority of people were racist in the 19th Century

I can give you examples, which I think you would ignore, which show him heads and shoulders above the majority for his time period, but which still in 21st Century standards would be racist. You have to remember the *majority* of people were racist at the time. Even Lincoln would fail the test today.

We are built upon the shoulders of others who come before us. True for science and true for equality.

L-

[yardwork]

54. Those stories about Lee being an enlightened slaveowner aren't true.

Lee was a cruel and sadistic slaveowner. The mythology about Lee being a kind and enlightened person for his time was created in the early 20th century, as part of the white supremacist movement.

I was taught these myths about Lee as a child. I learned the truth studying 19th century history. Lee was horrible. Possibly worse than average.

[Aristus]

99. I grew up in the South and went to public school there. The myth of the benevolent Lee is just that:

a myth. He was a virulent racist and a cruel slavemaster. I didn't know any of this until I was nearly an adult. But I accept the truth of it. Perpetuating these inaccuracies is a disservice to enlightened citizens.

I no longer accept the 'he was a product of his time' argument. For the simple fact that there were enlightened people back then, too. Anti-slavery activists, anti-segregation advocates, supporters of human rights, just like today. Why aren't they also considered 'products of their time'?

[Lithos]

119. I grew up in the South as well - still live here

I understand the "myth of the benevolent Lee" as well as any. His death in 1870 added a ton of fuel to the idea of the Lost Cause. I believe Frederick Douglas remarked rather hostilely (and correctly) to the accolades at the time. I have never attempted to portray Lee as "enlightened", but then again, I have never attempted to portray him as anything but a product of this age.

Just like many things, the world is not divided into binary arrangements. The number of people in the 19th Century who would be considered enlightened along racial divides by today's standards were few and very notable. Most people held non-whites quite happily as a second class. Lincoln, while an abolutionist, was an ardent racist who held the superiority of the White race many times. The _Bell Curve_ is an old idea which has seen many attempts to justify.

This notion of superiority was one of the major drivers of Manifest Destiny. The number of people (in the whole of the United States - North and South) who would accept a person of color as an equal were notable for their exception. This remained true until the 1940's and only so because of the needs of the many (World War 2) outweighed the short-sightedness of the many. To try and say people "knew better" is wrong as people thought they did know better. The court victories in the 1950's were done with minority support and only thru the long-term vision of a handful of people.

Lee fell into this grey divide- he thought of the evil of slavery, but believed it was better than the alternative because of the racism. He opposed Virginia's secession, but fought for Virginia because he believed the State came first (an old idea which the Civil War finally killed). His prosecution of the war as best he could, winning many individual battles which prolonged the war by several years. He surrendered in a way which helped pave the way for reconciliation - at least between white people (that racism thing). During the remaining 5 years of his life, he pushed towards reconciliation by his education leadership. He could have done better, but so could a most others who lived in the re-United States.

I studied Lee fairly deeply because my family claimed the Lees as a kin. (I have shown this to be not the case - Lee is a common enough name). I never fell into the mythology - my admiration of Lee is first done with knowing he is extremely flawed, especially along race. My admiration comes from other aspects including his humility when it came to the average soldier. He was a better than average General - though not the best one to come from the Civil War. (Longstreet, Thomas, Sherman, Cleburne, Grant, Sheridan, Meade all come to mind as possibly better). He also knew when it was time to accept and prepare for change.

Should he have statues? No. Should he be considered the "Banality of Evil?" which is what is happening now? No. The Mythology was created after his death, so he had zero to do with it. The "Banality of Evil" should be given to the Lost Causers (which Lee was not - he died before the movement started) and those who hide behind this for the cause of White Nationalism.

Or if you TL;DR - I think the vitriol is misdirected towards Lee when it should be towards today's White Nationalists.

[JonLP24]

123. Who honor him as a hero

[brush]

142. Still a traitor though, along with the rest of the confederates.

[brush]

141. Good post, good points. K&R.

[JonLP24]

122. There were the radical Republicans who wanted to go further than Lincoln

Not to mention the African Americans and indigenous people at the time. How did they feel about it?

[Kaleva]

108. No but the discussion is about his generalship.

[TomSlick]

32. Sorry. Montgomery may have been over-cautious, but he never took up arms against his country

I appreciate that it is perhaps unfair to apply today's standards to historical figures. Nevertheless, the oath Lee took was the same as the one I took. It's language is clear.

Somehow George Thomas (USA), Montgomery Meigs (USA), and David Farragut (USN) and others understood.

[Lithos]

36. The idea of Nationalism was cemented in the Civil War

That was one of the more decisive elements to be decided - even more than the idea of Race...

Lee left because he felt more loyalty to Virginia than to the United States. Had Virginia stayed in the Union, he would have stayed. He supported to his ability for Virginia to stay, but that did not come to pass.

Lee was an anachronism in some regards even in his own time period.

The others were not as rooted in the land as he was as none were the sons and grandkids of landed gentry.

Or more simply - Lee represented the last generation of the 18th Century landed gentry, whose more enlightened members were part of the originators of the grand experiment which resulted in the United States. He was unique and as stated above, anachronism.

L-

W/r to Montgomery and with a focus on the military side, minus politics - Lee was described as "Granny Lee". This fits rather well with Montgomery's noted hesitancy to waste British manpower. Both Lee and Montgomery realized the paucity of this resource. Grant used this to great effect in pressing Lee.

[True Blue American]

49. Yes,in Southwestern Ohio

You have many whose parents moved from the South who had the Southern mentality. They would actually believe Trump. Never mind Ohio was Union, home of the Underground Railroad in Ripley where slaves came across the Ohio river to safety.

J D Vances book,” Hillbilly Elogy ,” comes to mind. Middletown is just a few miles from Lebanon.

[Sherman A1]

56. Precisely

Completely correct.

[Scruffy1]

64. He was a terrible general.

In plain words he was a butcher. He took casualties needlessly that he could ill afford. His behavior at Gettysburg wwas criminal. First he ignored the advice of his whole staff and at the end the order for Pickets charge was insane. Picket never spoke to him again. Antietem was a bloodbath accomplishing nothing.Two thirds of his troops deserted. This whole bullshit of Robert E. Lee being a great General was just part of the revisionist history campaign that really got going about the first centennial of the Civil War. The truth was he enjoyed the great advantage of mostly fighting from defensive positions and the advent of the rifled barrell gave the defense a huge advantage. Too bad most get their history from movies and television.
There is a storyabout him giving General Montgomery a tour of the battlefield at Gettysburg. When they got to where Picket's charge occurred Montgomery said "I would have cashiered that General". Ike replied "I would have shot the SOB."

[The Mouth]

68. THANK YOU

Maybe not the most overrated general ever, but not deserving of the hagiography the evolved around him.

[yardwork]

130. Excellent. This admiration of Lee was created during a previous rise of white supremacy.

There's a reason why Trump is talking about Lee now.

[Grassy Knoll]

10. The Worst President EVER!!!!

Good God Heaven Help Us, What An Ignorant Fool, But
Then Again Ignorant Fools Have Their Warm And Fuzzy Clown Slippers.

[SunSeeker]

12. I like Generals who don't lose.

[Grassy Knoll]

16. I Like Presidents Who Didn't Get Investigated For That Russer Thing

[SunSeeker]

22. I like Presidents who don't fellate dictators. nt

[Grassy Knoll]

26. Lol...

[Kajun Gal]

14. Gotta love the "uneducated".

[TheRealNorth]

17. Grant and Sherman were both born in Ohio

and Trump chooses to praise Lee.

Of course, the majority of Trump's hardcore supporters probably wish Lee had won.

[Lithos]

21. Might I suggest the phrase

Dog Whistle?

[oberliner]

29. Did you watch the video?

[True Blue American]

53. I watched the video twice

The ignorance of a man in the state that was Union, home of the Underground Railroad and all he said was how great General Lee was and that General Grant drank too much!

Some one should drive Trump a few miles south to Ripley,Ohio on the Ohio river,show him where the hid the slaves in the dugout under the back porch, the House high on a hill with a light in the window when it was safe to cross the river. There were certain times when that section of the river was only waist high.

Show Trump the maps of the Underground Railroad all across Ohio. I visited there a few years ago. Even I was amazed how extensive that Underground map was.

[oberliner]

59. He definitely is ignorant

Speaking as someone who went to college at a school in Ohio that was associated with the Underground Railroad, I certainly do appreciate the point you are making here.

I would argue, though, that Trump (or whoever wrote his remarks / told him to tell this story) was trying to make a positive point about Grant as a way of pandering to the Ohio crowd.

The thrust of the (probably apocryphal) anecdote seemed to be that Grant was a winner who was able to defeat a great general.

[True Blue American]

60. But he went on and on

About General Lee.

I have a Grandson at Ohio University, grew up on the Ohio River so am very familiar with the whole area.

Trump emphasized that General Lee was winning. No metter what he meant he was playing to his base. The area is full of transplanted Kentuckians, Tennesseeans and WV whose families came here after WW 2 and know nothing about the History of the State.

[oberliner]

62. Good point

To me it seemed like he was trying to tell the story so as to make Grant look good - but in his usual bumbling way. But maybe it was in fact a nod to his pro-confederacy supporters by calling Lee a great general.

[True Blue American]

61. Playing to transplanted Southerners

Who know nothing about Union Ohio.

[djacq]

19. I was once called Judgmental by calling Trump a racist.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I give you Exhibit XXX
(he's been a racist most of his adult life, he must be in triple digits by now).

[RockRaven]

23. George Pickett disagrees.

And while a bastard in his own right, Pickett would know better than Dumb Donald.

[keithbvadu2]

24. Thank God you republicans won that war... You really whipped those Southerners.

Thank God you republicans won that war... You really whipped those Southerners.

They especially like to hear that when they mention that the democrats started the KKK.

[mobeau69]

55. Do they teach SS in school these days?

Political realignment is a concept so many are not familiar with.

[world wide wally]

25. The KKK was huge in Ohio in the early 20th century.

I'm sure the influence still remains.
But this is the point! We can still kovercome all those bullshit influences.

[Blue Owl]

27. Civil War History with Professor Fuck

n/t

[oberliner]

30. Did anyone who commented on this actually watch the video?

The Hill is being somewhat ridiculous with this headline.

[AllTooEasy]

110. Ofcourse not

[JonLP24]

124. Yes I saw the whole thing

I could have learned more watching Drunk History.

Bash Avenatti but give Trump the benefit of the doubt?

[oberliner]

127. Miles Kahn makes the point better than I can

Link to tweet

"Jesus, NBC. Do NOT make me defend this guy but your headline/clip completely misconstrue context by cutting the clip short. I’m a raging liberal and this is irresponsible. He goes on to say how Grant was better, despite his alcoholism, and defeated Lee.

Why do you need to even take this idiot out of context? He says a dozen falsehoods a day? Why give him a win by doing shoddy journalism? Ugh.

To be extra clear, I watch the news for a living and the polices from this administration make my stomach turn. Just today they are discussing how to continue separating children from their parents. Trump fills me with existential dread that I’m sure delights some on the right.

But I watched that clip on NBC, then found the entire clip and said, huh. That’s a bit out of context. Do they need to take a guy out of context who has defended Nazis? I think he’s a racist. I think this speech was rambling BS. But that clip was out of context.

Also, I think NBC more often than not does excellent work. Which is why I felt it necessary to call them out for what I saw as a dumb misstep."

[JonLP24]

128. He said he was a great general

He couldn't tell the story without praising Lee.

[George II]

35. This is the guy having a love affair with Kim Jong Un (wonder how Melania feels about that?) !!

[elmac]

37. Lee was a great General

who fought for the wrong side. In the end, he was physically and mentally exhausted, made his first major mistake at Gettysburg and never recovered. The last battle of the war was fought in TX and was a confederate victory.

[Wyatt513]

38. Lincoln did ask Lee to lead the Union army

But he declined ...


http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/01/president-lincoln-originally-offered-the-union-army-command-to-general-lee/

[brush]

73. Nah, not so great. See post #64. And he was a traitor and racist.

[elmac]

95. being a great general doesn't mean your a grear person

lots of examples of that in our history. The Civil War amplified this as the next civil war, between fascists and we the people, will do.

[brush]

97. True. Still not a great general though...Post #64.

His reputation was burnished during the white supremacy movement during the 1920s when they were building all the statues of the confederate traitors in the South.

And it was taught in schools through out the country of what a brilliant general, refined, aristocratic gentleman and kind slave owner he was, when in truth he wasn't a great general, was a cruel slave owner and definitely a traitor to his country.

Time to stop perpetuating the lies about these traitor generals being so great. Lee hugely miscalculated in ordering Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg which resulted in a 50% casualty rate. His army was never the same afterwards. Pickett would never speak to him again.

And don't even mention Antietam, another miscalculation, where he divided his forces.

[Kaleva]

116. People who argue Pickett's Charge was a mistake don't offer other options where Lee could have won

But that's beside the point. Lee's main error was strategic in that the invasion of the North campaign was ill advised. Some argue that Lee should have kept on the defensive in Virginia and sent reinforcements to the Western theater, particularity Vicksburg, to thwart the North's attempt to control the entire Mississippi.

Lee's strength was that he was a very capable tactician but he fell short as a strategist. Grant could see the big picture and act accordingly. Lee could not.

[brush]

118. I like your take. Good analysis.

Pickett's charge was ill advised. Isn't it up to the commanding general to come up with something other than a 3/4 mile charge across an open field raked by Union artillery and rifle fire?

[Kaleva]

139. IMHO, Lee should never have been in Pennsylvania in the first place.

[ProfessorGAC]

133. How About This Option

Go back to Virginia where supply lines would be less strained and Union's less convenient
Win at all costs is not a genius strategy!

[Kaleva]

138. Tha't very close to what I said.

[LW1977]

39. Not surprising..

...and go away Oberliner!

[brush]

40. HE WAS A TRAITOR, PERIOD.

[safeinOhio]

47. No, make that a comma and add

surrender monkey too.

[brush]

72. Right. I stand corrected.

[joe_stampingbull]

71. right you are!

You have to ask this question of anyone you put up a statue in his honor. Did he help America or try to destroy it? The answer is obvious. Why put a statue up for someone who tried to destroy America? Makes no sense.

[duforsure]

41. Lee was a treasonous traitor ,

Who did lose , and was beaten by President Lincoln. General Lee. Lee worked and fought against this country , and now trump praising him , and that should raise many concerns who he is for now too. He's attacking this country now too. Trump lied to his followers and they had no clue. Wonder how many people at the rally's are paid to be there and start the chants , and stuff to incite the crowd with? Like he did by having paid people at his other appearances. He's a fraud, and a liar. And a traitor.

[BlueStater]

42. Who gives a shit?

I'm sure there were quite a few Nazi generals who were competent and effective as well. Does that also warrant being mentioned in public?

[raccoon]

45. Germans, don't give him a chance to go over there.

Germans, don’t give him a chance to go over there.If you do, he’ll praise the Nazi generals.

[keithbvadu2]

115. Reagan paid homage to Nazi SS soldiers.

[oberliner]

107. Have you ever seen the movie The Desert Fox?

[LudwigPastorius]

43. KKK in the Oval Office.

Like father, like son.

[raccoon]

44. Playing to his base, clearly. And maybe trying to piss off liberals. NT

[no_hypocrisy]

46. I only like generals that win a Civil War . . . . . .

[sellitman]

48. Hitler praise coming in 5-4-3-2-1

Oh wait....he did that already.

[Bradical79]

50. This is what I was taught in school (Ohio, 1990's)

Lots of pro-Lee material. He actually paraphrased it pretty well, what we learned. This case isn't actually just a another case of Trump being a dumbass, unfortunately.

[no_hypocrisy]

51. In a former Union State?

[Bradical79]

67. Yup.

Of course big chunks of Ohio were Klan country in the early 20th century, and that legacy still crops up sometimes.

The Ku Klux Klan was especially strong in Ohio during the 1910s and 1920s. For example, in Summit County, the Klan claimed to have fifty thousand members, making it the largest local chapter in the United States. Many of the county's officials were members, including the sheriff, the Akron mayor, several judges and county commissioners, and most members of Akron's school board. The Klan was also very popular in Licking County, where the group held its state konklave (convention) in 1923 and 1925. More than seventy thousand people attended each event. The konklaves were held at Buckeye Lake, a popular tourist attraction in the early twentieth century.

[link:http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/w/Ku_Klux_Klan|

[True Blue American]

63. Where in Ohio did you learn that?

I went to school in Southern Ohio long before the 1990’s. Never learned any of that.

The Southerners who came to Ohio for jobs after WW 2 may have believed that. We were taught that Ohio was very much a Union State.

[Bradical79]

66. A subburb of Columbus

The characterization of it was Lee was the honorable superior general, and Lincoln tapped Grant as a last ditch effort to beat him. Then Grant managed to win through a particularly violent war of attrition due to our superior numbers, throwing as many troops at the Confederacy as possible.

[True Blue American]

88. I live in a suburb north of Dayton

So I am aware of all the people who moved here from Southern states who carried their Southern beliefs with them. Columbus is totally Republican,Kasichs old District but Danny O Conner came just a few votes short of beating a guy well known In Zanesville whose Dad owned a car dealer ship.. We are hoping in this election.

[BumRushDaShow]

52. So that means that the GOP is no longer "the party of Lincoln"?

[Botany]

57. Yes, Lee was a good general but he did lose the war and if McClellan had followed Lee after .....

... Antietam the war might have been over 2 years earlier.

BTW Trump's comments were a shout out to the KKK and white power fucks
who live in S.W. Ohio. You can see their meeting place off of I 71 (rebel flag
on the barn roof)real close to Lebanon and the creep who killed the woman in
Charlottesville, VA is from SW OH too.

BTW Grant, Sherman, and Phil Sheridan were all from OH.

[brush]

75. I didn't know Sheridan was from Ohio too. Don't know much about his Civil War...

service. His service during the Indian Wars out west is more well known.

[Botany]

82. He grew up in Somerset, OH

Trump's knowledge is pathetic and his "Bobby Lee" was a good general talk was a flat
out call to his racist base. How the f*** did we wind up here? I feel like I am in
some kind of bad dream.

[True Blue American]

91. Have to check that one out.;(

I knew South Lebanon was full of rednecks with a Sheriff to match. Did not know this!

http://sundown.tougaloo.edu/sundowntownsshow.php?id=149

My family lives north. Eek!

[Botany]

92. I 71 north bound about a few miles after you cross the Miami River valley .....

I think it is past Rt 7 / Wilmington Rd by just a little bit .... look to the right
if you google Ohio KKK barn and hit images you can see it.

[True Blue American]

96. Honestly I am in Lebanon quite often

Planned on going there today, but was raining.

I had heard the family talking about how a Red neck Sheriff was so nasty, but not this. I have an idea I was not told this. thanks

Also have a young man, a Chef working at the Golden Lamb. The Portman family owns that.

48 was shut down yesterday. My Son laughingly told me he had a ticket for me. I had plans to wash my hair or something. Husted was there, but for some reason Mike DeWine had a prior engagement.

[d_r]

58. Just an aside

I don't think people give enough credit to malaria for its role in weakening northern troop s for early confederate victories.

[Baitball Blogger]

65. I wonder if Trump would change his mind if someone told him that Lee, having

been born and raised in Virginia, probably had a "Southern" accent. Whatever that means for that century.

[Mc Mike]

74. I'd like to point out, as a sidebar, that Rump went down to Floribama to campaign for pedo Moore,

and told the redneck trumpklan how great Lincoln was, not many people knew Lincoln was a repuglican, but Lincoln was great, and tRump was the greatest president since Lincoln, and maybe was greater than Lincoln, with a more winning and 'works accomplished' record.

He did this campaign appearance while he was on his way to a civil rights memorial in Mississippi next.

So some big mouthed chowder head northerner, the epitome of obnoxious big New York City assholes, the stereotype of big northerner assholes, told the deep south whitie fans how great Lincoln was.

Not one single 'boo' from the crowd, which has been trained pavlov style to hate Lincoln for generations, since the 1860's. Then he was off to honor the freedom riders in Mississippi.

His lies are transparent, even to the brain dead klannazi fans of his. Open doublethink.

[MyOwnPeace]

77. Not to worry.............

IQ45 can easily talk his way out of this kerfuffle (as he has done before): "You also had some very fine people on both sides..."

[Major Nikon]

78. Trump is an idiot. Lee lost most of the battles he commanded

In his very first engagement at Cheat Mountain he was forced to retreat. My G-G-Grandfather was a union officer in that battle.

[True Blue American]

98. Yeah, I was kind of

Thinking my History books said he lost.

[Polly Hennessey]

79. What the hell is he talking about?

Is there a classification that is “dumber than rocks”? We are sinking lower and lower. Is there no one out there to help us?

[modrepub]

80. I call BS

Lee had two offensive campaigns into Union Territory and he lost both spectacularly. IMO the Gettysburg Campaign really showed Lee's ineptitude, which he himself recognized when he offered to resign after that disaster. Here is a list of his blunders from that campaign that I feel nobody talks about.

No Objective: Lee's strategy was to move north, draw the Army of the Potomac away from the Confederacy and win some pitched battle so that the Union would have to abandon its siege at Vicksburg. Longstreet was overruled by Lee and Davis when he suggested detaching troops from the Army of Northern Virginia to relieve the siege. IMO, Lee should have aggressively moved north towards Harrisburg, captured the northern capital and cut the Pennsylvania Rail Road line. Having no objective from the get go got Lee in trouble when his calvary under Stewart got separated from Lee's army until the second day at Gettysburg.

State of the Army of the Potomac: Keep in mind Lee had just defeated the Army of the Potomac, which was twice the size of his, at Chancellorsville. The Army of the Potomac was reduced in size after the battle since Lincoln had no desire to let Hooker lead if for another battle. Lincoln refused to let Hooker take command of the Union garrison at Harper's Ferry and Hooker resigned. Let that sink in, Lee is already moving into Pennsylvania causing great panic and Lincoln allows the leading general of his largest army to resign. Lincoln decides to nominate Meade right before the most important campaign of the Civil War. To complicate matters, Meade is not the senior general inside the Army of the Potomac; there are two others who are senior to him. Lincoln's logic in selecting Meade was that he was from Pennsylvania (Philadelphia) so he'd be more apt to fight on his own soil and more importantly, Meade had no political aspirations or support. Lucky for Lincoln he chose a very capable officer who thought he was being arrested for criticizing Hooker when they showed up in the middle of the night to tell him he was receiving command of the Army of the Potomac just days before one of the most crucial battles of the Civil War.

Use of Subordinates at Gettysburg: Probably one of the only bright spots for the Union at Chancellorsville was Lee's loss of one of his most capable generals when Jackson was killed (by shots from his own troops). That left Lee with one experienced corp commander, Longstreet. Strangely, Lee kept Longstreet's corp in the rear protecting his army's escape route should disaster happen. That meant that Lee's army would initially come in contact with Union (reserve) units with somewhat inexperienced commanders. Contrast that with Meade who pushed his most experienced general, Reynolds at the head of his army. Reynolds would be killed early on the first day of Gettysburg and Union forces would eventually be routed by superior Confederate numbers. Before Reynolds is killed he sends back a message to Meade that he has engaged Lee's army and he holds a strong position (on Seminary Ridge) at Gettysburg that he thinks the Union can hold. Meade, who has chosen a spot in Maryland to try and engage Lee trusts his subordinate's judgement and begins moving his other corps to Gettysburg. When Meade learns of Reynolds death he is distraught at his fellow Pennsylvanian's death but sends another capable general, Hancock to take charge and assess the situation. Hancock arrives late on the first day as the Union army is streaming out of Gettysburg. He steadies the troops on Cemetery ridge and sends a message back to Meade that he still likes the position. Meade again trusts his subordinate and hurries the final units to Gettysburg, which arrive during the early morning hours of the second day. Perhaps the first day would have gone better for Lee if his most capable general was on the field. Maybe the disaster of Picket's charge would have been avoided if Lee had listened to his subordinate's assessment to go around Meade's strong position. Not having Stewart's calvary until the end of the battled didn't help but again that's on Lee for not having a definitive game plan for the campaign.

Movement During the Battle: Lee was never a corps commander so he tended to stay in his tent rather than go out and assess the situation. He didn't arrive on the battlefield until the second day and wasted most of that day waiting for Longstreet's corp to come over from Chambersburg. Meade had his army in place very early on the second day following the old adage for successful Civil War commanders, move aggressively and fight defensively. The better movement of the Union army's corp probably had two reason's. One was the Union calvary was able to screen Lee's troops allowing the army to move unhindered and trick Lee's corps generals into thinking they were engaging more men than they actually were since calvary fire arms fired at a faster rate then the muzzle loaded infantry units. Second was the Union corps had much fewer troops by design. McClellan had designed Union smaller corps to more easily move along roads. Lee divided his army into three much larger corps, which simplified the command structure but made road movements much more cumbersome. Meade was originally a corps commander and was used to riding in the field and observing his troops. It was during one of these trips that he found General Sickles corp out of position; he was supposed to be on the Round Tops anchoring the army's left flank. When confronted by Meade, Sickles said the ground he had chosen was higher then his previous position. Meade told him that he could find higher ground right up to South Mountain. When Sickles offered to withdraw his troops back to his original position Meade told him that "those men won't let you", a reference to Longstreet's corp which was beginning to engage Sickles out of position corps. Meade's action on this side of the battlefield are never recognized. All the credit for the Union's heroic hold of the Round Tops would go to the commander of the 10th Maine, Joshua Chamberlin. None of this might ever have happened if Meade personally hadn't rode out to inspect this position. There was one stage during this in which Meade and his staff were nearly alone on the round tops as a company of confederates approached the position. Meade calmly drew his sword as his staff nervously did the same. At the last minute a company of Union soldiers showed up and Meade quickly encouraged their placement. Afterwards when one of his staff commented on how bad their previous predicament looked Meade was said to say, "Yes, but it's all right now! It's all right now!"


Sorry for the long rant but I can't stand to hear about how great Lee was as a general. IMO it ranks up there with the State's Rights Civil War fallacy.

[NNadir]

84. A very nice discussion of one of the most discussed campaigns in the Civil War.

I would certainly disagree on some points you make but your overall assessment of Lee as a general jives quite well with my own.

You may have already read it, since you are obviously highly literate on the issues of the Civil War, but if you haven't, you may enjoy Alan Nolan's famous polemic Lee Considered which grinds the marble man into powdered limestone.

I loved that book.

Trump obviously hasn't read it because to all intensive purposes, there is no evidence that he knows how to read,

[Recursion]

85. If I can add: the entire Eastern theater is overglamorized, overanalyzed, and overrated

The war was won (by Grant) in the Western theater. Americans completely misunderstand the civil war because books and movies focus on the relatively peripheral theater in the Mid-Atlantic which is only famous because it happened to be near both capitals.

[NNadir]

89. Excellent point. n/t.

[Recursion]

126. Burns fell under Shelby Foote's spell

It was an easy thing to do: the man was a masterful storyteller. But his focus was all wrong (though Foote did at least bring Shiloh to more of the national attention it deserves). It's a shame.

[modrepub]

131. Here's An Observation

Except for the Confederate Navy (one ship, CSS Shenandoah) decimating the North's whaling fleet in the Pacific, most of the Civil War campaign's located furthest from Washington DC ended well before the Army of Northern Virginia surrendered. In fact, I'll argue that the further you were away from Washington DC the better the Northern units did. IMO, this was due to the Lincoln administration's interference in the command decisions. Here are some examples:

Lincoln withheld troops from McClellan's Peninsula Campaign when he was told how low troop numbers guarding DC had fallen; McClellan had deliberately hid this from Lincoln but this left him short and soured his already low opinion of the President. McClellan was also loath to share his overall strategy with the Lincoln or Stanton since he felt, rightly so, that Confederate spies were all over DC and apt to get wind of any of his plans. McClellan may not have been the best field general but he was a wizard at organization and logistics. In the end it was his plan to attack Richmond from the east supplying the large Army of the Potomac from the ocean and rivers instead of road and single-track railroads that finally defeated the Army of Northern Virginia. The war might have been faster if Lincoln had moved McClellan to Winfield Scotts position early in the war but his administration and McClellan had a mutual loathing of one another.

Meade's instructions from Lincoln were to find and attack the Army of Northern Virginia and protect Washington DC. This was the overall plan for the Lincoln's commanders in the east. I can't think of any other theater which had these restrictions of simultaneously attacking and defending. Grant was never given this restriction (but he was never technically commander of the Army of the Potomac either; he was given overall command of the US army but chose to leave Washington DC and take to the field. Meade offered to resign his position when he met Grant so he could put one of his generals at the head of the Army of the Potomac. Grant was surprised at the offer but ultimately left Meade in his place but in effect the Army of the Potomac became Grant's army for the rest of the war)

Do I have to even mention Washington/Lincoln's installment of politically connected/incompetent generals at the head of the Army of the Potomac?!? Ok I will, Pope, Burnside and maybe Hooker. All (mostly) completely incompetent probably adding to Lee's mystique.

[Recursion]

134. I might add a slightly different view of that

Lincoln put politically connected and incompetent generals in command of the Army of the Potomac because he had to put them somewhere, and he knew that theater was not going to be decisive. He also put politically connected incompetent generals in the Trans-Mississippi theater, for largely the same reasons.

The Army of the Tennessee got the best generals and the most free hand because Lincoln knew that would be decisive. Within the first year, Kentucky was kept out of the war, Tennessee was knocked out of it (people forget TN was accepted back into the union during the war), Florida was largely out, and Northern Virginia and West Virginia were under Federal control. A year later, Mississippi was out of the war and Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas were cut off from the rest of the Confederacy. Even if Lee had secured a victory somewhere north of the Potomac, whom would he be representing at the negotiating table? A rump CSA of AL, GA, SC, NC, and part of VA?

[gladium et scutum]

117. Colonel Chamberlin

commanded the 20th Maine, not the tenth Maine. Strong Vincent"s brigade defended Little Round Top, not just Chamberlin's 20th ME. Neither Lee or Longstreet ordered the attack on Little Round Top. General Evander Law ordered the attack. Lee in his report to Davis after the battle referred to the attack on Little Round Top as a "distraction" from his main attack on Meade's left flank.

[SKKY]

86. Right. And Donald J. Trump was a great president.

[Vinca]

100. So now Abe Lincoln was a "loser" according to the Orange Fuhrer.

You'd think that might bother the GOP since that was the high point of their party . . . and it's been downhill ever since.

[keithbvadu2]

114. Official republican position - Lincoln was our nation's greatest leader

Official republican position - Lincoln was our nation's greatest leader

This is the official position of today's republicans.

From the 2004 GOP Platform

"One hundred and fifty years ago, Americans who had gathered to protest the expansion of slavery gave birth to a political Party that would save the Union - the Republican Party.

In 1860, Abraham Lincoln of Illinois carried the Republican banner in the Presidential election and was elected the Party's first President. He became our nation's greatest leader … and one of our Party's greatest heroes. "

Haven't seen them contradict that in any GOP Platform since.

[muntrv]

101. One word, Cheetolini: Appamatox.

[SWBTATTReg]

102. I love to hear what Newt Gingrich thinks of rump's remarks. He's written a book (maybe ...

more than one book) on the civil war.

Politics played a paralyzing role in the civil war, both sides. Both sides made terrible mistakes. Both sides had terrible generals. Both sides had great soldiers. Overall it is a sad chapter in our nation's history, made somewhat better in that Abe Lincoln didn't want to punish the south after the war (but unfortunately there were others that did, vindictively).

[tazkcmo]

103. He was a great general.

And a traitor just like everyone else who fought for the Confederacy.

[raccoon]

104. Lots of Southern soldiers were drafted. They may not have believed in

Lots of southern soldiers were drafted. They may not have believed in slavery Or secession at all. I don’t think it’s fair to call a draftee a traitor.

And even for some of those who weren’t drafted, when your homeland is invaded, that’s a pretty good reason to fight.

[yurbud]

105. someone should edit some Fox News video & figure out how to feed it to his TV...

so he would say stuff like, "...and most people don't know Robert E. Lee was secretly a woman. That's right, and he was married to Jefferson Davis."

[louis c]

111. So Was Benedict Arnold, But They Were Both Traitors

[JonLP24]

125. Robert E. Lee descandents distance themselves from WS more than Trump

"Robert E. Lee fought for the continued enslavement of black bodies. It was for state's rights, yes, but it was for state's rights to own slaves," he said in the video.

"I found myself saddened by the state of our nation but I'm encouraged. I'm encouraged because we are going to work to end this," he added. "We are going to vote. We are going to show Donald Trump that white supremacy has no place in any parlors of our government."

Robert Lee IV has spoken out against his ancestor before.

During the 2017 MTV Video Music Awards, he captured media attention after he called Robert E. Lee "an idol of white supremacy, racism, and hate." At the time, he said, it was his "moral duty to speak out against racism, America's original sin."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/411286-robert-e-lee-descendant-i-was-disheartened-to-hear-trump%3famp

Interesting he isn't giving a white-washed view of Lee.

[7wo7rees]

140. Threadkilla!

[Xolodno]

143. Lee was Lincoln's first pick to lead the Union Army.

He indeed was a good General, but told Lincoln if Virginia joined the rebellion, he went with it. The Confederacy, largely based in Agriculture was in no position to seriously challenge the industrious North. Lee knew this, but still followed his state, so he may have been a brilliant tactician, however, he obviously didn't see the long game.

Lee used mainly hit and run tactics because he knew he could not hold a sustained battle. The Union had the resources, he didn't. His only hope was to hit fast and hard and take DC to demoralize the North and force recognition of the Confederacy, and thanks to the Unions inept Generals, almost accomplished this. When Grant took the helm, he understood that attrition would destroy the Confederacy, so he used it. Gettysburg was Lee's biggest mistake against Grant, after that, the war was pretty much decided.

In the end, Lee was a traitor and was fighting something morally rehempensible. His loyalty to the individual State and keeping slavery alive may have been in his thinking....but like not seeing the long game with Lincoln, he didn't see the long term of history and that he was on the wrong side of it.

[duforsure]

144. Lee was another loser

Who was a traitor , and represented the slavery of others . Thinking this racist in the oval office would claim this shouldn't be a surprise. In the end he lost , and was a loser. Reporters should ask him , so you was for slavery? Then ask him why he would support people that were supporting it. He'll either change it to claim it was others fault, or roll out more excuses like he''s made a entire career from doing to people, or make more Sxit up like he does regularly. He uses this to divide people with, and the media helps him with promoting it by showing him on tv. Media isn't helping this country by showing him promote his propaganda daily on tv. He goes from one issue to another trying to divide us with it. Putin used this tactic too, and could be using here with trump.