Denmark dismisses White House socialism report as "fake news"
Source: CBS News
Denmark consistently ranks among the world's happiest countries, but the Nordic nation is less than pleased with how it's being portrayed in Washington. The White House Council of Economic Advisers highlighted the Scandinavian nation in a recent report called "The opportunity costs of Socialism."
Grouping Scandinavian countries with economically devastated Venezuela, the 72-page document asserts that living standards in Nordic countries -- Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway and Sweden -- to be "at least 15 percent lower than in the United States."
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"Yes, we pay a lot in tax... but we get so much again," he added. "Our children can get an education -- no matter who you are and where you come from. We can get to the hospital and get help if we get sick. Whether we have a special insurance or a lot of money in the bank. And if you become unemployed, run into problems or otherwise need a helping hand, then the community is ready to seize and help one back on the right track."
Also objectionable to many Danes was the CEA noting that the cost of buying and owning a pickup truck in the U.S. is significantly lower than in Denmark, a pioneer in wind energy that has actively increased the costs of vehicles that consume lots of gas. The nation plans to prohibit the sale of new cars that run on fossil fuels by 2030.
Read more: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/denmark-dismisses-as-fake-news-white-house-report-on-socialism/
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NastyRiffraff
(12,448 posts)told me that she doesn't understand why socialism is considered bad in the U.S. She said her father owns his own business and is doing very well thank you. Yes, taxes are high, but as the article says they get a lot in return.
Shit, I'd move there except it's so damn cold and dark.
not fooled
(6,678 posts)RWNJ cranks producing a kook brothers approved propaganda piece demonizing "socialists" get it wrong re Denmark.
ck4829
(37,758 posts)
colsohlibgal
(5,276 posts)They try to portray it as some kind of communism, it’s another dog whistle for their low info base.
Nothing evil about democratic socialism at all.
BigmanPigman
(55,137 posts)in many minds. Nordic countries have the best quality of life. Sure they pay more in taxes but if you break down what those taxes pay for they are actually paying less than what Americans pay in the long run. They don't have huge military budgets either, so more money goes into education, health care, equal rights, paid vacation, renewable energy, etc. I would move there if I wanted to start a life someplace that values what I value.
The majority of Dems now favor Socialism more than Capitalism...It took long enough but slowly we are getting it. My 84 year old Dem parents told me in 2016 that Bernie would never win since Americans aren't ready for socialism. They were right. Maybe in a few more years they will be.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Now the GOP is happy to let Russia give us orders so what have they still got to complain about?
TomVilmer
(1,964 posts)... most recent years the government has been run by a conservative/farmers party with a touch of radical right. But even those bastards have not yet spoiled the way we have free health care and free education - Denmark do have some problems, but they are very small compared to having a Trump in front.
BTW most new wind mills around the world are based on Danish tech, and in a few years Denmark's wind power will produce more than half of Denmark's total electricity consumption with full stability and no black outs.
DFW
(60,179 posts)They love to point to Scandinavia or even Germany (where I live) as some kind of neo-socialist paradise. Many also like to say that our countries of residence are "Democratic Socialist" although since that is the name adopted by the former East Germans ("Partei des Demokratischen Sozialismus" ) who used to shoot their citizens down at the Berlin Wall, it doesn't go down well here in Germany.
Social Democracy, what is really practiced here in Northern Europe, has its weak points, and somehow ALWAYS leads to a heavy-handed and burdensome bureaucracy, has nevertheless managed to tend to the needs of its citizens to a degree that makes them reluctant to discard it.
Germany, of course, just looks at Trump and says, "no, thanks, already tried that, and it didn't work out so well."
groundloop
(13,845 posts)IMO it's not the form of government which leads to a heavy handed bureaucracy, but rather politicians. I'd say we're seeing that right now with Tiny in the White House. Furthermore, it's normal for people to bitch about their government, and I have to wonder if some of what you describe is nothing more than everyday griping.
From what I can tell I'd take the Scandinavian model of government in a heartbeat.
DFW
(60,179 posts)Switch them out, and you have another government.
Germany was a "Beamtenstaat" already during Kaiser Wilhelm II. The Nazis and their successors in East Germany perfected the art of the control-freak state, but West Germany didn't shun the notion, either. "Vorschriften über Alles." The French are terrified of their "fonctionnaires" as well.
In Sweden, for example, after the brutal suppression of the peaceful march at Ådalen, a Social Democratic government was voted in for the first time, and held power continuously for over 40 years. The initial mission of instituting a more equal society was started, but, as Bo Wideberg noted nearly forty years after the changeover, "not yet achieved." Their attempt to make absolutely sure that their goals were achieved led to control, control, control. When I first visited Sweden in 1970, the generation I hung out with had all been born long after the Social Democrats had been the sole ruling party there. They were tired of the State having a say in every aspect of their lives. I was new there, and didn't even speak the language yet on my first visit. I wanted to get around and see the place. They wanted nothing more than to get out and see other places. On my second visit there a year later, when I could speak the language passably, I was having dinner with a family whose son and daughter had become friends of mine. I told them they were lucky to have a health care system where no one had to pay huge fees to get care in a hospital. The mother of the family, who was not yet ten years old when the Social Democrats had taken over, said, "men man måste vara nästan död förrän man kommer i sjukhuset här (but you have be nearly dead before you get into the hospital here)."
Once, in the 1970s, I wanted to change some Swiss francs (I had just flown in from Switzerland) for Swedish kronor at a bank in Stockholm. The teller looked at me with suspicion (black beard, no tie, has money, VERY suspicious). She said, well, alright, but you have to fill out this form. The thing was nearly three pages long and finely spaced, asking for everything about me except for a DNA sample. I started filling it out, and was doing fine until I got to a line asking for my "personnummer." I had no idea what a "person number" was, so I asked. She looked at me like I was an idiot, and she said, "if you live in Sweden, you HAVE to have a person number." I said I lived in the USA, where we have names instead of numbers. It was apparently inconceivable to her that someone from America would bother to learn Swedish without living there. She then said, well if you don't live in Sweden, then you don't need to fill out the form (she might have told me that before letting me spend 20 minutes filling out the first two pages). The form U.S. Customs has for passengers entering or leaving the USA with over $10,000 in cash or negotiables is maybe a tenth as long, even today.
All countries will have everyday griping, but plenty of people have legitimate complaints about unnecessarily overbearing state regulations. In the old Soviet days, the national sport of countries like Poland was tricking and getting around the rules, as simplifying them was considered treasonous. The more a ruling party becomes an institution, the more rules it thinks up to institute. Not because they will improve the lives of their citizens, but because they get the notion that they are there to make up rules, whether or not they do any good. When my father was dying of cancer 18 years ago, some genius thought up a rule to make Medicare reduce the amount it covered for outpatient care from 95% to 85%. Apparently, someone had half thought out that it would save money by discouraging people from making frivolous outpatient visits to hospitals. My dad, weak, and more experienced with hospitals at that point than he had ever hoped to be, went ballistic (to the point that he was still able). He arranged a conference call with Sen. Moynihan of NY and the Clinton White House and explained to them that if poor Medicare patients couldn't afford day visits, then they would go for in-patient visits, and cost the system far more money. They saw he was right, and dropped the new rule. The trouble is, few people have the clout to get governments to quit while they're ahead. Especially in countries where the rule-makers carry a huge clout, i.e. where the citizenry is disciplined enough to largely obey them, few are out there to mount an opposition to oppressive rules. At some point, everyday griping becomes legitimate resistance.
I speak German, Dutch, and Swedish (among others), live in Germany and visit the others often. "From what you can tell" is only an impression. I recommend learning the language(s) and spending some time with the people of these countries before making it your incontrovertible point of view. By the way, a word of warning: if you're going to learn a Scandinavian language (they are surprisingly easy for an Anglophone), don't start with Danish unless you like gargling a lot. Once you can read one, you can read them all, but while Swedish and Norwegian are practically the same, Danish sounds like a fatal throat infection.
TomVilmer
(1,964 posts)Last edited Tue Oct 30, 2018, 09:34 AM - Edit history (2)
... since I live in Denmark - but also speak a decent Swedish, which can be the most beautiful language in the world, with Norwegian in a close second place. And I have been visiting hospitals in those three countries, and got a very nice and competent service there, which in one case saved my life.
In the Nordic countries it is quite easy for citizen to live and work across these borders. Yes, everything could be improved, but I would be in so deep debt now without free hospitals. Medicine can be costly, but when it gets really expensive the State takes over. In Norway the doctor smiled and said he would make a "mistake" in the papers, so I would get same full discount as the Norwegians.
Bureaucracy... I really do not think there can so much more than in the USA. Our Social Democratic governments gives us benefits, and then another block of parties makes all those rules to stop people from benefiting.
Worst right now is that the Danish government is controlled by a deeply Right Wing party, which has the success criteria to kick non Nordic foreigners out and make life as hard for them as possible. In all equability also people from the USA are thrown out. Sweden just had an election where such an even worse Right Wing party got at lot of votes - future over there is very uncertain, though the other parties until now has tried to isolate them.
Sweden earlier on close to doubled their population by opening the doors for immigrants, refugees and all - which made Sweden the Nordic country with the biggest growth and a booming economy!
DFW
(60,179 posts)She had cut herself with her nail scissors, and we needed a band-aid. We went to a pharmacy, but I didn't know the Dansk word for band-aid. I tried "Danishizing" the German word "Pflaster" into what I thought would be the Danish version, which came out sounding like "plesta," and sure enough, the saleswoman went and got us a small pack of band-aids!
I know bureaucracy can be cumbersome in the USA. My brother does projects for DARPA, and tells me horror stories of how inefficient our Defense Department is. Still, friends of mine here tell me that if war had broken out with the Soviet Union, their air force wouldn't have found out about it until a week after it was over. I'm sure all governments have their inefficiencies that they prefer to hide as best they can. The one thing about US bureaucracy I recall is that while plenty of stupid rules abound, most of them were put in place for a realistic purpose (trouble is, that might have been back in 1886) at one time or another. After their raison d'être is gone, the rules are not removed, but rather simply ignored. The EU makes up rules that serve no apparent purpose other than justifying the presence of the rulemakers.
Don't forget that when Danmark joined the EU, they almost left it again because the EU initially told the Danes they would no longer be allowed to call their apples "apples," because they weren't of a size the EU bureaucrats decided was the minimum size for an "apple." The EU relented, and Danmark stayed in the EU, but I wouldn't have blamed them for leaving. My friends in Switzerland are all extremely relieved that Switzerland has consistently refused to join and let the Brussels bureaucrats dictate their lives.
TomVilmer
(1,964 posts)Besides funny questions about apples and even more for cucumbers, Denmark has stayed away from a few other topics being fully integrated. Though nearly a full parliament told us to vote YES, the people said NO. Then they tried again, but added a handful of exceptions, and finally got a YES to the big deal. Since then there has been exclusions for full integration for stuff like the Euro, lots of juridical decisions and best of all against cooperation about defense.
But - EU has helped a lot to ease border tensions for many countries, since the borders was made easier to pass. For years the internal borders in the EU were totally open, but a few more refugees from the Middle East scared the whole EU into tightening them a bit again.
DFW
(60,179 posts)I fully understand why many Schengen countries imposed limited controls again. My office in Holland told me about their social services catching a Romanian who was registered as a welfare recipient under 15 different names in 15 different towns in the Netherlands. In Romania, it apparently takes 15 minutes to legally change your name, and this guy kept his ID cards with all his previous names. So, he drove his new Mercedes around once a month collecting fifteen times €1200 (or whatever the amount was), and was living like a king. With €18000 a month tax-free, I guess you can make a nice enough living for yourself.
Even I get stopped on occasion. Once I crossed the border from Germany to Holland and got harassed during a spot check for speaking Dutch too well without ever living in Holland. I didn't conform to their standard notion that Americans are universally too stupid to learn foreign languages, especially theirs. Some officials are just looking for an argument, I guess.
TomVilmer
(1,964 posts)... but closing these very artificial lines on the map could not in any way block that Romanian guy in your tale - since no one except for the airports keep a list of people passing by. BTW first year after the "open borders" I was hitch hiking through Europe. There were no checking at the borders, but I got fully checked five times by the police in between.
DFW
(60,179 posts)They always found it suspicious that an American could speak their language. Prejudice is a powerful force, and no one is immune.
Not just the cops, for that matter. I was in Schipol Airport outside of Amsterdam one time. I went into a duty-free shop to buy a music cassette (long ago, obviously), and said, in Dutch, I would pay with Dutch currency.
The saleswoman told me I couldn't shop there. I asked why not? She said duty-free shopping in Holland was only for non-Dutch citizens. I said I wasn't Dutch, and showed her my passport. She said foreign residents of Holland couldn't shop there, either. I said I wasn't a resident of Holland.
"Then how come you speak Dutch?" was her next question.
I answered, "do you live in Texas?" She said, "no." "Then how come you speak English?" I asked. She gave me a dirty look, but she apparently was out of stupid questions, so she did sell me the cassette.
sandensea
(23,336 posts)The one foreign country that basically adopted their economic playbook, Argentina, is currently collapsing - IMF bailout included.
They had Latin America's highest living standard in 2015, despite a vulture fund war against their bondholders (and therefore, its credit).
Now, amid riots, its immigrants are returning to Bolivia, Paraguay, Peru, etc. - even Venezuela.
