School District Won't Punish Students In Nazi Salute Prom Photo Due To First Amendment
Last edited Sat Nov 24, 2018, 09:42 PM - Edit history (2)
Source: Huff Post
By Sarah Ruiz-Grossman, 35 mins. ago.
The Baraboo School District in Wisconsin reportedly doesn't plan to punish the students who gave an apparent Nazi salute in a photo that went viral this month. The school district's administrator, Lori Mueller, distributed a letter via a student information system on Wednesday saying that the district has completed part of an investigation into the photo but that some "key details" remain unclear, the Wisconsin State Journal reported.
"We cannot know the intentions in the hearts of those who were involved," she reportedly wrote. "Moreover, because of students' First Amendment rights, the district is not in a position to punish the students for their actions."
The photo, reportedly taken before the Baraboo High School junior prom last spring, captured dozens of male students lifting their arms in an apparent Sieg Heil, a gesture used as a greeting in Nazi Germany.
After the photo went viral and received widespread condemnation, Mueller condemned the students' actions as "not reflective of the educational values" of the school district and said it would pursue "any and all available and appropriate actions, including legal." She did not immediately respond to a request for comment.
Read more: http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/school-district-wont-punish-students-in-nazi-salute-prom-photo-due-to-first-amendment/ar-BBQ1Y7E?ocid=HPCOMMDHP15
On Nov. 14 the school district said in a statement that it understood "the moral responsibility we have to be relentless in our work to create a culture in which racism is not tolerated." It later announced a series of community meetings, which appear to be ongoing, to "acknowledge the deep significance" of the students' actions. "The answer to hate is not hate." (End of article).
A Bit More, Holding 'Community Mtgs.' NO Discipline, *A PARENT TOOK THE PHOTO?!
The photo was taken in May before prom while students and their families gathered outside the Sauk County Courthouse in Baraboo;
it was taken by a parent -- Peter Gust -- who was not hired by the district to take pictures; and the subjects are both current and past Baraboo High School students.
https://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/education/baraboo-school-district-not-in-a-position-to-punish-students/article_c6e0c065-2ed1-5279-9bb4-afc034c553e8.html
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TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)historically schools have sued to let them know they do not have these rights within the school.
Oh, but those were always progressive students advocating for anti-gun laws, legal marijuana, and equal rights for all citizens....
violetpastille
(1,483 posts)Apologize and promise to do better going forward. And keep cranking out Nazis.
But I mean I guess there is precedent. (?)
In Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District (1969),[140] the Supreme Court extended free speech rights to students in school. The case involved several students who were punished for wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam War. The Court ruled that the school could not restrict symbolic speech that did not "materially and substantially" interrupt school activities.[141] Justice Abe Fortas wrote:
First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate . . . . [S]chools may not be enclaves of totalitarianism. School officials do not possess absolute authority over their students. Students . . . are possessed of fundamental rights which the State must respect, just as they themselves must respect their obligations to the State.[142]
TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)Morse v. Frederick (2007)
In Morse, the Supreme Court found that a public high school had not violated the First Amendment rights of a student suspended for unfurling a banner reading “BONG HiTS 4 JESUS” at a school-sponsored, off-campus event. Determining that it could “discern no meaningful distinction between Student newspaper stories that were deleted. May 1983 issue of the Spectrum, Hazelwood East High School celebrating illegal drug use in the midst of fellow students and outright advocacy or promotion,” the Court found that public high schools may “restrict student speech at a school event, when that speech is reasonably viewed as promoting illegal drug use.”
Perhaps a case could be made that giving Nazi salutes is also a kind of advocacy that does not belong in their school, but the administration did not feel Nazis are an important issue to them.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)Bethel School District v. Fraser (1986)
In Fraser, a high school student was suspended for giving a speech at a school assembly that included a number of sexual innuendos and double entendres. The Court upheld the suspension, saying: “The schools, as instruments of the state, may determine that the essential lessons of civil, mature conduct cannot be conveyed in a school that tolerates lewd, indecent, or offensive speech and conduct such as that indulged in by this confused boy.” According to Fraser, there is no First Amendment violation when a school punishes, on a viewpoint-neutral basis, a student for “lewd,” “vulgar,” “indecent,” and “plainly offensive” speech during classes, assemblies, or other times when students are forced to listen.
Nazis are not offensive, at least at that school.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)
pstokely
(10,885 posts)they can also take away parking privileges on school property, anything where they where they can require drug testing
Phoenix61
(18,823 posts)college in the US gets a copy of that pic. Actions have consequences and those little self-entitled shits need to learn that yes, you can say what you want, but so can everyone else.
Laffy Kat
(16,949 posts)Let's hope they are all identified and college admission committees all over the country receive a copy of the photo and students' names.
Stallion
(6,642 posts)but publish their names since the identity of persons is not protected-let it follow them around into the future
* note the wise student on the upper far right in the tuxedo-no Nazi salute-good for him when everybody else is following idiots
DonViejo
(60,536 posts)and harassed because of that. He further alleges the "heil" salute was intentional by his classmates.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)
Polybius
(21,876 posts)No idea, but I'd like to find out.
forgotmylogin
(7,951 posts)Perhaps not so with public university, but if a more exclusive school has limited admissions and it comes down to two similar students, I bet they'd prefer the one who doesn't signal loyalty to the Nazi party.
Basement Beat
(659 posts)... let us see how that would go over.
guillaumeb
(42,649 posts)Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)
Flaleftist
(3,473 posts)
33taw
(3,333 posts)The Circus World Museum and WI Dells tourist areas are some their largest employers. I see no reason to go to any of those areas.
Stuart G
(38,726 posts)The school leaders who decided not to punish need a few lessons themselves..
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100211468464
33taw
(3,333 posts)
Takket
(23,701 posts)how about using this as a teaching moment?
A screening of Schindler's list
Milwaukee has a Holocaust museum, it is 2 hours away. Good field trip to organize for the kids AND their parents.
Bring in a survivor and/or historian to do a face to face with the kids in class
I'm willing to chalk up something like this to plain ignorance when kids and peer pressure are involved. Do we all really think that this entire group are hard core nazi's because they did this? If they don't understand the horrors of the Holocaust and why something like this isn't funny, then they need to be made to understand now, before it is too late.
appalachiablue
(43,997 posts)"It later announced a series of community meetings, which appear to be ongoing, to “acknowledge the deep significance” of the students’ actions. “The answer to hate is not hate.”
??? Meaning whut
Lucky Luciano
(11,858 posts)
Codeine
(25,586 posts)I’m increasingly of the opinion that humans don’t learn much - if anything at all - about morality. You’re either a decent human or you’re not. It’s just how you’re wired, and the majority of people simply do not possess a moral compass.
Lucky Luciano
(11,858 posts)The probability of roughly 30/31 kids being amoral and inherently bad is vanishingly small....unless there is something in the water I guess!
liberalhistorian
(20,904 posts)education, rather than punishment, is actually the best course of action here. We are far enough away from WWII and the Nazi era that most people living now, especially younger people, had no first-hand experience with it and it's frankly often not taught the way it should be in schools. My son graduated in 2010 and the whole thing was covered for maybe just a few days in high school. The only reason he knows as much as he does about it is because of the lengthy and detailed education he received on the subject from my mom and I. Most kids (hell, most adults now!) have very little sense of just how satanically evil the Nazis were and the cost of that evil and the cost of finally defeating them. They simply think of it as a "cool" way to "rebel" and shock.
But if they were to actually have a visceral education in these matters, to include not just movies like Schindler's List but things like actual news reels and documentaries showing actual concentration camp footage (one showing the liberation of Dachau by American and Allied troops is especially powerful, including their utter disbelief and horror upon discovery of the surviving prisoners and the stacks of dead bodies), I think a lot of that would actually change. Punishment, however, without any requisite education so that they'd understand exactly WHY it was so offensive, would simply cause resentment and bitterness and have the opposite effect of that intended.
dsc
(53,386 posts)but this is clearly some sort of quasi sanctioned activity. I literally can't see how they can't be punished.
R Merm
(443 posts)snacker
(3,658 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)I am sure they won't see it as first admendment issue
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)
Nitram
(27,663 posts)It's a joke to a lot of young people who don't really understand what WWII was all about. I hope the national response was a wake up call to those who were still salvageable.
Jake Stern
(3,146 posts)You know damn well that big name conservative legal organizations would jump in and help convince the Kavanaugh Konstitutional Kourt to rule 5-4 that the students rights were violated and then the district would be on the hook for big time $$$$$$.
JohnnyRingo
(20,855 posts)As a donor to the ACLU I have to recognize everyone's rights, even those I disagree with. Hard to punish people just for lacking common sense if it doesn't cause real harm to others. I just shake my head.
They're young now. Likely most will not be so flippant and ignorant in a few years.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)Seems just repub/cons rights are the ones protected. I dunno. The picture will haunt them. Publishing their names w the photo is a good start. If they're bad apples and not just followers for a picture...it'll come back to bite them. Kids.....ugh. What's their parents say I wonder?
JohnnyRingo
(20,855 posts)I read the riot act to one grandson who identified as a redneck and posted a confederate flag on his FB page. I explained the negative origin of the term redneck and showed him a picture of his great great great Uncle Henry Canfield who fought for the Ohio militia in the Civil war. I informed him he doesn't have a drop of Dixie blood in his veins and demanded he take it the fuck down before uncle Henry comes back and slaps the shit out of him. (I used those words). Free speech and the 1st amendment doesn't count with grandpa.
He did, but still thinks he's some kind of redneck. Stupid teenagers.
Crutchez_CuiBono
(7,725 posts)
reACTIONary
(7,156 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)"Free speech" wouldn't be a defense.
TexasBushwhacker
(21,196 posts)Since when do high school students have "freedom of speech" in school or at school functions?
appalachiablue
(43,997 posts)
benld74
(10,284 posts)Just had show about nazi movement in America
appalachiablue
(43,997 posts)They're doing an impt. series of programs with investigative journalist A.C. Thompson. Charlottesville was the first one.
Historic NY
(40,003 posts)dembotoz
(16,922 posts)This is a boys will be boys thing
Nothing will happen to them
33taw
(3,333 posts)Baraboo is also only 35 min from Madison. The county has been pretty blue the last few elections.
dembotoz
(16,922 posts)not as bad as lets say...beaver damn...but still
The Wizard
(13,721 posts)for getting Nazis to expose themselves. They're like flashers without long coats.
lilactime
(658 posts)
SKKY
(12,798 posts)Now, with freedom comes responsibility. And with responsibility comes consequences. And I suspect the consequences from this viral photo will, at least for some, far surpass anything the school administration might have done.
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)but the school should also have the right to discipline and serve them up a good 'ol plate of consequences. That would not be taking away their free speech rights, it would be teaching them to think before they act and that there are consequences for your actions, something that kids today are not being taught.
onenote
(46,135 posts)to students who engage in speech you agree with?
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)I'm not espousing or advocating an ideology that has or will lead to mass murder. Your question is really a messed up one. Not based in any morality at all.
onenote
(46,135 posts)blue-wave
(5,007 posts)
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Do be sure to point it out for me, mmkay?
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)As I stated, they have a right to free speech. But they also, as young impressionable minds, need to learn a lesson while they are young. Or we will be dealing with someone in the White House much worse than tRump in the future. What's not to understand about morality? I guess if you don't possess it, then the concept is lost on you. Morality puts the "civil" into a civil society. Should we just have chaos and death in the streets?
I'm amazed at how many people think that saying and doing anything to anyone is OK. It's not.
And again, you or anyone can say whatever you want. But for negative actions, there will most likely, as there should be, consequences. Just like when some of the Charlottesville Nazis were exposed and lost their jobs. Hmmm, I guess that's wrong and we should just embrace Nazis and their sick ideology.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)You seem to have missed pointing it out.
Your post is a so chock-a-block with logical fallacies, I'm going to have some fun giving it the fisking it richly deserves.
Ad Hominem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
False Dilemma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
Straw man
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Ditto above.
Do be sure to keep your fingers out of my mouth; my words come out just fine. And frankly, I don't know where your fingers have been.
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)I'm not arguing against first amendment rights. I'm arguing for moral compass within society. Sorry you take it all so personally.
Care to espouse any pro-morality viewpoints? Like me never wanting to ever stick my fingers in your mouth? Ewww.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)I know, it's easier arguing a position that you make up for me, but let's stay on track, shall we?
You absolutely have argued that the school should have the ability to censure these students, for protected speech that occurred outside of a school venue.
That thing that protects such speech? Is the first amendment.
Fucking duh.
Feel free to say, "But that's not what I mean... ," but that's the logical result of the statements you've made.
Your arguments are very similar to those I hear from the religious right, or evangelicals, or the family research council.
Straw Man
Your arguments are very similar to those I hear from the religious right, or evangelicals, or the family research council.
As for those fingers.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Perhaps it's a subtlety you've not yet mastered.
An orange and an apricot are a similar shape, and often a similar color.
Observing those similarities does not call one the other.
Now, what clause of the first amendment covers morality, again?
What tenet of law gives the school the ability to violate the free speech rights of students?
Do tell.
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)as long as it works for you and you feel good. Blah, blah, blah. See Yah!
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)The photo was taken before the junior prom, and apparently not on school property. That being the case, the school district would be way overstepping itself if it tried to discipline them over this. By no means should schools have the authority to punish students for actions or speech that happen off-campus and not during school hours or at a school function.
If they'd done this at the junior prom, then the school would be well within its rights to discipline them, but that's not the case here.
MichMan
(17,109 posts)…… doing something stupid.
Don't agree that they should be marked for the rest of their lives over a picture
n/t
LakeArenal
(29,949 posts)Last edited Sat Nov 24, 2018, 10:26 PM - Edit history (1)
Not a fan of ruining someone's entire life because of one stupid action/comment.
Edited to add: As a friend of mine pointed out, these are stupid teenage edgelords, going out of their way to show how edgy they are.
California_Republic
(1,826 posts)EllieBC
(3,639 posts)when it involves Jews.
Other threads about racism or Islamophobia or homophobia and it's "MARK THEM FOR DEATH FOR LIFE".
Soleta
(23 posts)When Monty Python, the Blue Brothers or Mel Brooks did bits that made light of iconic Nazi behavior, it was understood to be mockery and laughed at.
It is weird that a group of high school kids in a state not known for hate group behavior would immediately be assumed to be supporting Nazism rather than making a joke of it.
If the jokes that were funny about Nazis in the '60s, '70s and '80s are no longer funny, we have a lot of media to ban.
It seems like these children were primarily guilty of not being fully aware of current political sensitivities - which is not so surprising given their age.
blue-wave
(5,007 posts)Sadly though, it's on the rise:
https://www.wisconsinwatch.org/2017/11/across-wisconsin-recent-rises-in-hate-bias-incidents-spark-concern/
ebbie15644
(1,244 posts)future run for office
jeffreyi
(2,569 posts)If they had exercised their "free speech" by broadcasting obscenities or foul antisocial or sexual stuff, they would be disciplined, no?
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)Obscenities and "foul antisocial or sexual" stuff is still protected speech, until it crosses a very specific line. The only way the school should be able to discipline students for speech is if it takes place on campus, during school hours or at a school function.
If I denounce the principal as a fucking idiot during a math test, for instance, then the school would be well within its rights to discipline me for doing so. If I denounce the principal as a fucking idiot in a video shot in my own home, the school has no grounds to discipline me for that.
It's not "free speech," it's free speech, and it protects speech/expression that we find objectionable, such as this incident.
jeffreyi
(2,569 posts)I had the impression it was a school function.
reACTIONary
(7,156 posts).... by the professional photographer who took the picture. I think it's the photographer who should be punished by being prohibited from school events and other comercial opportunities associated with the school .
appalachiablue
(43,997 posts)the photographer encouraged the students to make the gesture. One account claimed it was merely a 'goodbye/farewell wave from HS to the parents' as I read elsewhere which is BS since the fascist salute is widely recognized.
Another news article that I added to the OP last night claims the photographer, Peter Gust is the parent of a student. I guess it's possible that the (professional) photographer hired for the job was also a parent, but that makes this entire thing even more unsavory and sinister.
A Bit More, Holding 'Community Mtgs.' NO Discipline, *A PARENT TOOK THE PHOTO?!
The photo was taken in May before prom while students and their families gathered outside the Sauk County Courthouse in Baraboo;
>it was taken by a parent — Peter Gust — who was not hired by the district to take pictures; and the subjects are both current and past Baraboo High School students.
https://www.wiscnews.com/baraboonewsrepublic/news/local/education/baraboo-school-district-not-in-a-position-to-punish-students/article_c6e0c065-2ed1-5279-9bb4-afc034c553e8.html
reACTIONary
(7,156 posts).... from whatt Iread before, the photo hadd the watermark of or was on the site of a pro photographer. The article seems to indicate thaat ther is some contrition on the part of the school and that they are going to take some redemptive and educational measures .
samnsara
(18,767 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)
hotrod0808
(323 posts)that I once got a detention for calling a bully messing with a freshman "dipshit." If my 1st Amendment right wasn't respected, then why was theirs?
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)I'd be willing to bet heavily that if one of these idiots had thrown up the Nazi salute in the hallway at school, there would have been discipline involved, and rightly so.
The bit that matters in this incident is that they did this outside of school hours, and not on campus.
hotrod0808
(323 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 25, 2018, 02:44 PM - Edit history (1)
That this was a group photo before a school-sponsored dance. We were informed before any such events that we were representatives of the school, and thus school rules apply. I.e., if we used foul language or hateful gestures on a field trip or at the hall that hosted prom, we were subject to requisite punishment.
I'll spell out the implication in my post: there will be no punishment for this because their behavior is tolerated/encouraged daily by the faculty and staff.
But thanks for driving me to write it all out so that visitors to this thread can see that we have to take steps and show our reasoning behind every single fucking post we make. I wouldn't want them to have a chuckle or anything at my first comment about the ridiculousness in severity of rule enforcement.
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)The examples you're pointing out (being on a field trip or at the prom) are not comparable to what happened here, so you're comparing apples to oranges. Those examples either take place on school grounds or during school hours, while this photo was taken off-campus and not during school hours or a school function.
Also, where do you get the idea that their behavior is tolerated or encouraged by the faculty/staff? Is it simply because the school isn't going to punish the students involved in this incident? If so, that's a very tenuous leap of logic, since the school legally has no grounds to punish the students, and would open itself up to litigation if it did so. Would you feel better if they did punish these numpties, and then got sued into the ground as a result?
Lastly, I didn't "drive" you to do anything you didn't want to do. You made a bogus comparison, and I pointed it out. No one then held a gun to your head and forced you to compose a response. You chose to respond, and you also chose to be salty about it.
Response to Jedi Guy (Reply #91)
hotrod0808 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)their back, and the school administration isn't going to help them.
JonLP24
(29,916 posts)Meanwhile, a number of other schools and school districts have decided that the First Amendment rights of students do not apply to taking a knee during the national anthem. As the New York Times reported, several districts across the country took action in the wake of Donald Trump’s criticism of NFL players who take a knee to protest police brutality against people of color.
In Long Island, the Diocese of Rockville Center, which runs the private Catholic schools, said students would face “serious disciplinary action” if they took a knee during the national anthem before sporting events.
Other public schools in Louisiana issued similar threats to students. In Bossier Parish, district superintendent Scott Smith said students who took a knee during the national anthem could be kicked off their teams.
“It is a choice for students to participate in extracurricular activities, not a right, and we at Bossier Schools feel strongly that our teams and organizations should stand in unity to honor our nation’s military and veterans,” he said in a letter obtained by the New York Times.
http://wsbuzz.com/world-news/high-schools-decide-giving-nazi-salute-in-photo-wont-net-suspension-but-kneeling-during-national-anthem-will/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
Weird how people are so sympathetic.
davsand
(13,446 posts)Having said that, however, they are a school. Schools are supposed to be in the business of teaching. Graduation requirements are set by the district, and they could easily make graduation conditional upon the completion of a 30 page paper about the horrible crimes against humanity committed by the Nazis and why those acts remain criminal.
If the school has a no bullying policy, I also think they need to apply that to all the participants as well. The legal principle of bullying allows that it can be taking place off school grounds--even on social media. Bullying is not held as being protected speech. I'd think those kids are caught in the act of bullying (photo evidence, no less!) and they should be subject to the discipline procedures set forth in that policy.
The will to actually DO anything seems to be lacking. Those "adults" in charge won't give a shit unless their inactivity hurts them directly, and in fact may see nothing wrong with the behavior.
Somebody somewhere along the line taught those kids this shit is acceptable or tolerable...
Laura
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)If the former, now you're punishing the innocent. If the latter, now the school is punishing the students involved by singling them out with an additional requirement for graduation, which would very likely provoke costly litigation.
What would you have the adults in this situation do, exactly? Legally, the school can't punish these kids without provoking litigation. I feel like you're conflating inability to act with unwillingness to act.
My interpretation of this incident is that these are teenage edgelords who think they're being daring and subversive and provocative. I don't think they're actually Nazis, nor do I think they hold Nazi ideals. I think they're kids, and sometimes kids do dumb, thoughtless things. This is one of those times.
davsand
(13,446 posts)Ramping up the peer pressure and disdain is not a bad thing either. If there are kids who are judged by their teachers to be unable to write that paper, then sure, give them a pass on it. The rest of that "school" needs to be fully educated on both the horror of the camps and the Nazis that ran them.
The hard reality is that free speech is only a guarantee that the government can't punish you for speaking out. There is absolutely zero protection from the repercussions of going out in public and showing your ass. Better to fully absorb that lesson now rather than later when they have a family at home depending on an income that vanished because dad decided to carry a tiki torch while screaming some horrid slogan.
The KKK hid their identities for years because they KNEW it was wrong. They wore masks and even draped their horses to prevent identification. Seems like these nazi-wanna-be punks have forgotten--or never learned--that normal people do not embrace this crap. Maybe it is the orange anus in the whitehouse that has emboldened them, maybe it's the passage of time. Either way, they need to realize exactly what it is they are saying and doing.
I still blame the "adults" for not teaching them.
YMMV.
Jedi Guy
(3,471 posts)And it's a school, not a "school." You're disparaging the entire student body because this subset of jackwagons did something stupid in an attempt to be edgy. That's broad brush thinking.
The other hard reality here is that the school has no authority to punish them for things they do outside of school grounds and hours. Doing so would be a major overreach on their part, and they'd get sued into the ground over it. And rightly so. Schools shouldn't be able to punish students for protected speech unless that speech comes within their purview (i.e., it's done on school grounds and/or during school hours, and is disruptive to the school's mission).
I don't believe for a moment that these kids are Nazi wannabes, nor do I think they have any love for (or, for that matter, actual knowledge of) Nazi ideology. They're teenage morons who thought they'd be edgy and provocative. Well, if they wanted attention, they got their wish.
Social consequences from the community and such are completely fine, but the school has no business stepping in about behavior that falls outside their bailiwick.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)Response to brooklynite (Reply #89)
geralmar This message was self-deleted by its author.