Mulvaney won't rule out military action in Venezuela

[DonViejo]

Source: Politico



By BRENT D. GRIFFITHS 01/27/2019 10:27 AM EST

Mick Mulvaney on Sunday refused to rule out U.S. military action to address unrest in Venezuela, following a week where President Donald Trump formally distanced the U.S. from the country's ruler, Nicolás Maduro, by declaring an opposition figure as Venezuela's true leader.

"I don't think any president of any party who is doing his or her job would be doing the job properly if they took anything off the table," the president’s acting chief of staff told Fox News chief White House correspondent John Roberts on “Fox News Sunday.“

"I think the president of the United States is looking at this extraordinarily closely."

Trump on Wednesday announced that he was recognizing opposition leader Juan Guaidó as the South American nation’s legitimate interim president, a move Canada, Brazil and several other countries also made. So far, the European Union has declined to follow suit, but on Saturday threatened "further actions" if a new presidential election were not announced in the coming days.

Read more: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/27/mulvaney-military-action-venezuela-trump-1128613

[sandensea]

1. Translation: Cheeto's desperate, and is hoping a war will save him.

Ironically, Venezuela's Maduro is desperate too - and is probably hoping for the same thing.

[Perseus]

6. No, Maduro knows that is this happens the military will run away like rats

They will not defend him.

[sandensea]

10. Maybe. But Cheeto's motives are transparent enough.

He himself has said it many times in one way or another: "Why can't I have a war or something like 9/11? Worked for Bush."

So there's the desire to be a "war president" - and the oil, of course.

[Perseus]

14. USA is not suppposed to engage in war in Venezuela

All the USA is offering is some troops to aid Brazil and Colombia who would be the major partners in the intervention. I know I am becoming repetitive but it would not be a war, the moment the Venezuelan military sees any move from other countries, they will run, there is no allegiance to Maduro at all, the allegiance is to the money they are robbing on a daily basis, but they have enough of it, they just cannot help themselves they have to take more, they are insatiable almost an addiction, but when the time comes they will fly away.

Anyone visit Miami, FL and drive to "El Doral" or "Weston, FL" and you will already see a lot of those Venezuelans who were plugged inside the regime, stole a lot of money and are now living and spending money like there is no tomorrow, and could not live in the mess that is the country anymore, so they decided to live in the "Empire" they have always claimed to hate.

[sandensea]

17. Anything we're not 'supposed' to do, you can usually count on a GOPee regime to do it

And big time.

[mikehiggins]

20. Iraq redux

We've seen this before with the first and second Iraq wars.

The US has NO right to intervene in the internal affairs of another nation. The history of our nation in doing just that demonstrates how little we learn from what we do. Those, as the saying goes, who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.

With Kuwait it was the brutal Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators. With Iraq 2 it was the WMD lies spread by Cheney and co. All in an effort to gain control of natural resources. Eighteen years later we are still wasting lives, and money, because none of our leaders had the balls to do what the Russians did in Afghanistan and get out.

We've heard all the stories before about how "the people" will welcome US invaders as liberators and saviors of their country. Really?

And the US enlists Elliot Abrams to help run this crap? Iran-Contra Elliot? Really?

The time to stop this is now, before more US soldiers die and the world learns once again that an invasion is an invasion, and never happens without tremendous costs in lives and destruction.

Wake up.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

38. K&R, you speak truth.

We have indeed heard it all before, for me beginning with Vietnam and many since. It always starts with flag waving and talk about democracy and freedom, and talk of what an easy job it will be and native people welcoming us with flowers, hugs and kisses.

Then, it winds up being a never-ending quagmire after scores of everyday people are killed or displaced along with costing the US Treasury trillions. In addition, if the US or Russia is involved, invariably the cities are bombed into rubble.

From what I've read, Venezuela is a social, political and economic train-wreck whose people are extremely divided and on the verge of a civil war. If we go in, then we have to chose a side (apparently already have) and there could be lots of bloodshed. That could evolve into guerrilla warfare on steroids. I suspect that most of the regime's secret police and much of the military will remain loyal. Regardless, there would be experienced military personnel operating on both sides.

Neither Trump or Putin can solve the decades of ruin in Venezuela and I think we agree the motive of both is to control their natural resources and not free the people to do their will.

There needs to be an international mechanism in place for hitting a huge "reset" button for nations that are in total chaos and consumed by corruption. Unfortunately, human greed and selfishness dictates that this can't happen because, for example in this case the two sides could never sit down, be humble and submit to any outside higher power.

[onit2day]

42. We've already taken a side.QWe want a cou so we can take their oil. We tried to do

the same thing with Chavez. It will also serve as a distraction from Trumps crime family activities. This authoritarian oligarchy most definitely has an agenda. The swamp people want no taxes, shrink gov so it can be drowned in the bath tub, no regulations, employee health ins. and pack the courts with corporate friendly judges. They are doing or have done every bit of it. Now they just want to keep the weapons flowing and wars going to maintain profits. If we want our country back these are the people we must rid ourselves of. Republicans have not meant a war they didn't like.

[KY_EnviroGuy]

43. Yes. War and conflicts keep our people in fear....

like a low-grade fever, to distract us from insisting on a good progressive government.

I've noticed that during war and conflict, citizens tend to worship the dogs of war and pay little attention to legislation. A perfect setting for the processes of destruction you described that Republicans thirst for most.

Our much-despised senator McConnell is one of the masters of this process........

[EX500rider]

49. "We want a cou so we can take their oil."

We already get most of their oil.
A change in regime wouldn't change that much.

[kimbutgar]

2. Just want Americans want another useless war on a country who didn't attack us

Which will blow up our debt even more. I think Congress then needs to raise taxes to pay for another stupid war . Tax the middle of the country and the south and let them send their kids to fight the maggot war,

[Perseus]

5. Let me explain

1. This would not be a war. Venezuela has limited military capabilities, even if they have new war planes, or tanks, their military is ill prepared, and the fact that all of the Venezuelan military are real cowards, they only shoot at people who cannot shoot back.
2. Venezuela is a very strategic country for the USA, have you wondered why Putin wants to get involved? It is a big question why the USA allowed Hugo Chavez to take power, he even came to the USA and insulted GW Bush in New York. Venezuela has been controlled by the Castro, the non-intervention by the USA has allowed the spread of communism in the area. To have Putin get hold of Venezuela would be devastating to the entire World.
3. Venezuela has the biggest reserves of oil in the World, you want to continue driving your car? Then Venezuela needs to be helped. The regime has devastated the oil industry in Venezuela, they just pocket the money.
4. The Venezuelan people are struggling, there is no food, no medical assistance, you cannot find medicines, people are dying of hunger.
5. As I said, this would not be a war, I don't see the Venezuelan military putting any opposition, they will run like rats when/if the USA/Brazil/Colombia decide to move their forces in, as I said before, the high rank military are as corrupt as the people in power, the lower ranks are suffering the same as the rest of the citizens.

If the orange buffoon can do one thing right, that would be to help Venezuela get rid of the regime, because the corruption has spread to other countries in the region, USA without a more stable S. America is in trouble.

It is not as simple as you make it sound, the communist regime in Venezuela has also allowed Iran, Hezbollah, China, Russia, and other groups who are not friends of the USA operate in Venezuelan territory extracting its steel, oil, and building weapons as well. Also, the regime is involved in drug traffic, Diosdado Cabello has become a drug lord in Venezuela, and he is part of the government. Maduro's nephews are in jail in New York, they were found bringing loads of cocaine to the USA, they are also implicated in the killing of some politician.

As I said, its not as simple as you think, things are bad in a country that used to be considered one of the best countries in the World, they used to call it the South American Switzerland. If you lived in the current condition you would be praying for a good power to come and help.

The Venezuelan regime has thousands of students, young kids, boys and girls in an dungeon in the middle of Caracas called "the Tomb" because its underground. They are being tortured, raped, killed every day by Cuban and Venezuelan thugs.

I can go on and on, but I suggest every one read more and try to find out the realities of what many S. American countries are suffering at this time, and it all started with Hugo Chavez, and now Maduro who is as stupid as the orange buffoon and as incompetent, because the Cuban want him there. You can search for the mansions where these "Socialists" live in, and not one, but the many they have in Venezuela and other parts of the World...etc., etc., etc.

[kimbutgar]

7. Good insight

Still don't want the orange maggot to start a war anywhere.

I was in Caracas in 1985. Up in the hills it was shacks and down below it was mansions. The wealth divide was astounding to me.

[Perseus]

9. Correct, and that is what brought Hugo Chavez to power

Chavez run one of the best campaigns I have ever heard, I wasn't there but I kept informed, and he fooled a lot of people. His win was real, people wanted a regime change, which is what happened here with the orange buffoon. Although Obama was great but the rhetoric and persistent rhetoric from the repubs makes people hate government, but in Venezuela it was real, the middle class was disappearing, and thus Chavez rhetoric worked well.

I feel like you with the orange buffoon, but this is no more about him, this is a crisis because Putin has already started moving troops and other personnel to Venezuela, it is a crisis that needs to be corrected now, we cannot wait for the orange buffoon to go to jail to start actions against the Venezuelan regime, the effects of no action will be more catastrophic.

[sandensea]

15. The "South American Switzerland" was Uruguay - not Venezuela

Uruguay was so known because of the rotating presidential system it had until 1966, as well as its relative political stability and its Swiss-style banking secrecy laws (very coveted by tax-dodging Argentines and Brazilians).

Venezuela, though probably never quite in the deep crisis it's in now, has always been known as the quintessential Latin American plutocracy: a resource-rich country with a desperately poor (mainly colored) majority.

[Perseus]

18. Not true

Venezuela was considered the "South American Switzerland" when Marcos Perez Jimenez was president. Venezuela had no debt, had no crime, there were no poor, had a very healthy middle class, had one of the nest health systems in the World, the shacks now found in the hills surrounding Caracas did not exist. Although Jimenez was considered a dictator, people lived free, there was work, and everything you find in that country today was built by Perez Jimenez.

Uruguay as well, I agree with that, but the most progressive country in South America then was Venezuela.

[sandensea]

27. Never heard that one.

I minored in Latin American history. The only such references I ever saw were always to Uruguay (for the reasons I mentioned above - plus its white majority).

It's possible that someone from Venezuela may have called it that during the Pérez Jiménez years, sure; but it certainly wasn't a widely shared opinion. Is there a good source that says otherwise?

I recently read something similar to what you wrote, referring to Caracas before Chávez as the "Paris of South America."

Which of course always referred to Buenos Aires (an opinion most in Buenos Aires don't themselves share).

[oldsoftie]

19. I believe you are spot-on with your analysis. ANY country we ignore, Russia or China is ready.

Ready to step in. And trump threatening cutting off money to Honduras & el Salvadore is another point. We cut off the money, and the other 2 step in and get another foothold near us, further isolating us.

[lovemydogs]

3. That is so stupid. We have no business in Venezuela

Going into that country is wrong and we need to stay out.
If they want to go into a country south of here they need to work peacefully with those countries in Central America to help the governments work and deal with their problems.

[Perseus]

8. Please read my previous post, and below.

USA has a LOT of business in Venezuela, and there is a lot at stake if left the way its at.

No, going into that country is the right thing to do, USA would not be going at it alone either, Colombia and Brazil would also be involved.

Do you understand about the current conditions Venezuelans are living today? Do you know that if you are out of your house after 06:00pm the chance to get kidnapped or killed are 70%?

I know a lot of people there, I know people who have been kidnapped and they had to pay a lot of money to save their lives. One friend of mine was kidnapped, taken to the shores of the Orinoco river, his family had paid a lot of money and they were going to kill him anyway. He became friends with one of the people who guarded him who gave him a piece of metal, little by little he broke off the shackles then one night he took off, he run for three days until he was lucky enough to find someone. Before he was kidnapped he looked like body builder, when he was found he was weighing 120lbs.

He was lucky, but thousands have not been. Kidnapping today is a major industry in Venezuela.

Please people, inform yourselves, Venezuela is more important to the USA than you think, Putin gets his hands on Venezuela? start praying.

[TexasBushwhacker]

28. We need Venezuela's oil

We have to have the heavy Venezuelan oil to blend with the light crude from Texas wells. That's what the refineries in Texas are set up for.

[GulfCoast66]

39. and we are buy all we want.

We are their largest trading partner.

The corporate PTB have no interest in invading Venezuela.

Trump doing so would be the end of his presidency. The American people, even most on the right, are sick of endless war.

[Miigwech]

4. Put him on a horse and let him 'lead the charge'

trump is the general of the chickenshitcoward brigade

[sandensea]

12. If his bone spurs don't start acting up again, poor baby.

You know how bad those tropical climes are for those.

[ripcord]

54. He had to cross that line

I was saying just the other day I could support almost anything short of military intervention to deal with Maduro and he had to go there. Even when the bar is set so low he still manages to step on his crank wearing golf shoes.

[jpak]

11. Private military contractors linked to Russia are reportedly in Venezuela to protect Maduro

https://www.businessinsider.com/russia-linked-military-contractors-in-venezuela-to-protect-maduro-2019-1

Russia flew into Venezuela in the past few days to beef up security for President Nicolas Maduro in the face of US-backed opposition protests, according to two people close to them.

A third source close to the Russian contractors also told Reuters there was a contingent of them in Venezuela but could not say when they arrived or what their role was.

Russia, which has backed Maduro's socialist government to the tune of billions of dollars, this week promised to stand by him after the opposition leader Juan Guaido declared himself president with Washington's endorsement.

It was the latest international crisis to split the global superpowers, with the United States and Europe backing Guaido, and Russia and China urging noninterference.

<more>

Little Green Men

Yup

[Perseus]

16. Correct, and that spells trouble for the USA

But with a quick intervention from USA/Brazil/Colombia Putin will not be able to do much. Russia depends more from the USA than he wants to admit, but he knows it and that is why some of his statements have subsided a bit, plus being a KGB he prefers to work unobserved.

USA/Brazil/Colombia need to move fast before things become more difficult and then there will be a real war, not fought by Venezuelan military but by Russia.

[bitterross]

22. Wow, so if Putin wants Venezuela with a Maduro Admin. What're we doing?

I appreciate your analysis above. I am not informed at all and really needed the background.

It seems that Putin favors Maduro because he's apparently weak and corrupt and works like a Russian Oil Oligarch. Which makes me wonder why the Orange Shitgibbon is backing the opposition. Is it the US oil junta? Too much US investment there to let go to Russian Oil Oligarchs?

[EX500rider]

40. The US does lots of stuff Russia does not like..

....like killing a bunch of their "military contractors" in Syria:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html

and providing lethal weaponry to the Ukraine:

https://abcnews.go.com/International/us-announces-sale-anti-tank-missiles-ukraine-russian/story?id=53450406

[Evolve Dammit]

13. largest oil reserves in the world

U.S. "nation-builders" and oil corporations are salivating to get more control. And of course, with minimal regard for the populace, although that's how it will be rolled out.

[oldsoftie]

23. The populace is starving in the streets now. I doubt they would be treated WORSE

This farce of a revolution has decimated that country. Millions have fled and thousands died. ALL industry is in a shambles. No one will do business there because they know they will not be paid. No one will loan to that country because there is zero chance at repayment.

[TexasBushwhacker]

41. If oil got back up to $80 a barrel they'd be fine

Their problem in the past has been corruption and lack of industrial diversity. If they would take the extra cash during times when the price of oil is high and develop other industries, they could weather the lean times when the price of oil is low. They need to develop other industries because even their oil, as much as they have, will run out some day. Plus, as countries switch to renewables for environmental reasons, demand for their oil will go down.

[oldsoftie]

46. Ridiculous. They weren't fine when at 100 a barrel. It was at or near 80 several months last yr.

They were fine back before oil was anywhere NEAR 80 bucks a barrel. But that was before the ridiculous "revolution". The only thing it accomplished was making everyone equally miserable. Except those running the country of course.

[EX500rider]

47. Unfortunately Hugo blew over 100 billion dollars buying votes instead of building their economy..

....and Maduro has been even worse, straight out buying votes from starving people with food.

Reports of vote buying were also prevalent during the presidential campaigning. Venezuelans suffering from hunger were pressured to vote for Maduro, with the government bribing potential supporters with food.[121] Maduro promised rewards for citizens who scanned their Carnet de la Patria at the voting booth, which would allow the government to monitor the political party of their citizens and whether or not they had voted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Venezuelan_presidential_election#Vote_buying

Shades of 1984:

Carnet de la Patria, a digital ID based on China's Social Credit System. The card allows the government to monitor citizen behavior such as voting history.

[scarytomcat]

21. we need to stop getting involved in the civil matters of other countries

yes they have many problems probably some from following our trickle down advice. I really don't understand what is happening. They have oil to fuel there economy but they are falling apart. They sure don't need us messing around.

[EX500rider]

24. "yes they have many problems probably some from following our trickle down advice"

lol, not even close...the govt enacted command economy policies (socialist/communist policies) which have turned out to be a huge failure as usual.

[scarytomcat]

31. what do you mean by socialist/communist policies?

not supply side?

[EX500rider]

33. Like:

Taking over private factories and running them into the ground.

Seizing foreign oil companies equipment, driving off needed investment and know how.

Instituting price controls on basic food stuffs during massive inflation, insuring the shelves are bare. (can't sell under cost long)

Causing the massive inflation by over printing money.

Confiscating productive farms and parceling them out to loyalists, drying up the local the food supply.
Food production:


Instituting bizarre multi-level currency controls, drying up the supply of dollars for food imports.
https://www.legalmondo.com/2017/04/foreign-currency-regulations-venezuela/

Firing all the competent oil workers and replacing them with loyalists.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/05/07/how-venezuela-ruined-its-oil-industry/#9c24aa87399d

Oil production: (their major export)


Govt pricing of local gasoline sales below market value, resulting in shortages as it all gets black marketed to neighboring countries.

Etc..

[scarytomcat]

34. thanks I just assumed it was like Spain and Greece with austerity

and republican economics
but communism/ dictatorship doesn't work either

[EX500rider]

57. "but communism/ dictatorship doesn't work either"

Actually it works much worse, Greece and Spain still have food & medicine available.

[turbinetree]

26. Reinstate the draft............................

[Canoe52]

29. Reality check? When has this current potus

not fucked everything up, turned whatever he touches into a shitshow, and then blames everyone else for it?

[B Stieg]

30. Wag. The. Dog. Donnie. nt

[Mr.Bill]

32. Mulvaney doesn't have the authority

to rule in or out any military action. He's Trumps punk office boy.

[keithbvadu2]

36. "Acting" punk office boy

[Mr.Bill]

37. Correct.

[Cold War Spook]

35. What is Congress doing about Venezuela?

I know that Congress has been letting Presidents pretty much decide and that has not worked out well.

[BlueIdaho]

44. And the Russians are supposed to do what, exactly? nt.

[EX500rider]

48. Not much, they don't have the reach for S America currently. n/t

[BlueIdaho]

50. Sure about that?

http://time.com/5478644/venezuela-russian-bombers/

[EX500rider]

51. Yeah I am sure.

The have 16 Tu-160's left....with typical Russian Air Force readiness rates about 8 are flyable at any one time if that.
They have a 7,600 mile range, just enough to make Venz. on fumes.

The propeller bomber Tu-95 also has the range but it pretty slow for modern combat. They have about 60 of those so figure 30 that can get in the air.

Not much they could do against the 1,900+ fighter planes the USAF & USN have.

Unfortunately about the only war with the US Russia has parity in is nuclear.

[BlueIdaho]

52. So... Let's say

We shoot down one of those aging aircraft over or in Venezuela, or we kill a few Russian “mercenaries” that are reportedly guarding Maduro... What stops Russia from doing what they can, where they can to create maximum chaos. For example, they could destabilizing a NATO country closer to their home turf forcing us to commit blood and treasure in Europe

My point is, the Russians have long term interests in Venezuela. I suspect they aren’t going to let the US easily disrupt their South American interests without consequences.

[EX500rider]

53. "What stops Russia from doing what they can, where they can to create maximum chaos."

lol, I thought they were already doing that.
Just pointing out they don't have the reach to stop the US doing whatever it wants there.

[BlueIdaho]

55. It can get worse... nt.

[Sapient Donkey]

56. Not a Maduro defender in any shape or form, but WTF is the US interest and justification for any

military action in Venezuela? And also, to what end? This seems like it would only strengthen claims that Jaun Guadio is some sort of US puppet or something.

[EX500rider]

58. The US almost never takes "military solutions" off the table.

Puts more pressure and uncertainty on the opposing country.
If there are no US naval battle groups in the area we have no invasion plans cooking.