Brazil will not allow U.S. use its territory to invade Venezuela - vice president

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Reuters

FEBRUARY 25, 2019 / 1:32 PM / UPDATED AN HOUR AGO
1 MIN READ

BRASILIA (Reuters) - Brazil’s vice president, retired general Hamilton Mourão, said on Monday that under no circumstances would his country allow the United States to intervene militarily in Venezuela from Brazilian territory.

In an interview with Globo News cable channel, Mourão said Brazil will do all it can to avoid a conflict with neighbouring Venezuela. He spoke from Bogotá, where he attended a meeting of the Lima Group, a bloc of nations from Argentina to Canada dedicated to peaceful resolution of the Venezuelan crisis.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics-brazil/brazil-will-not-allow-u-s-use-its-territory-to-invade-venezuela-vice-president-idUKKCN1QE2DO?rpc=401&

Read more: https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-venezuela-politics-brazil/brazil-will-not-allow-u-s-use-its-territory-to-invade-venezuela-vice-president-idUKKCN1QE2DO?rpc=401&

---

(Short article, no more at link.)

[yaesu]

1. Well, I hope he's right but doesn't Brazil have a RW nut job running the country now?

if so he will be slobbering all over tRump offering to help. Anyway, this country has no business ruining another country in Latin America, the orange cowboy needs to keep his little hands off Venezuela, diplomatic strategies, sure, but no CIA, no military.

[GulfCoast66]

6. No belief unified South America more than opposition to US intervention.

I learned this recently from a right wing Brazilian who works for me. He supports the current president. But said if he as seen as helping the US invade a South American country he is done.

Hopefully he is correct. It certainly reinforces all I have seen and read over the years.

[Judi Lynn]

8. Very interesting to hear this. It could be deeply important, no doubt about it.

They had a US-approved military dictatorship already, and Bolsonaro has openly celebrated his admiration for those monsters frequently.

Thanks for what could be really good news, thinking there just might be some hidden strength within the people which will sustain them.

[Amimnoch]

27. Very true.

My husband and I lived in Macae for 2 years from 2010 to 2012. We still have many friends and professional connections that we maintain connections with down there.

There is no way President Bolsonaro will assist the US in attacking another South American country. He wouldn't do it if it was a popular thing to do, even more so since it would be an extremely unpopular thing for him to do.

[Wounded Bear]

44. That's because the US has been doing it for decades, maybe centuries...

Many people misunderstand the real purpose behind the Monroe Doctrine. Yes, it told Europeans hands off of the Americas. But what it also said was, this is our playground.

Americans have been fucking with Latin American countries since forever, including sending troops in to intervene.

[Devil Child]

2. Womp womp Bolton & Pompeo, must sting when Bolsonaro doesn't provide unconditional support

Thanks for the timely update Judi Lynn!

[Judi Lynn]

9. Definitely hopes it gives them a sharp burn.

I'm wondering if he didn't get information from his advisers that backing extreme violence might not be as popular as he was hoping it would be!

Thank you, Devil Child.

[Judi Lynn]

62. By all means. They expect Latin American would-be leaders to lie prostrate

and wait for their orders.

They expect unconditional subservience, and they expect those fascist leaders to put the interests of the US power machine first, above the interests of the people in their countries. Everything always goes A-OK as long as the leaders throw open the doors to the countries' natural resources, allowing US businesses to plunder them while paying almost NO taxes, and to offer the multinational corporations a vast pool of such poor people they have no defenses against the lack of safety laws, the lack of pensions, even semi-livable wages, of even protection from the death squads as they come and go to and from work. The corporations hire the death squads (paramilitaries) to terrorize the workers, to keep them so paralyzed with fear, often with frequent reminders of the brutality which can be unleased upon them, to ever try too hard to form unions which will look after their needs for safety, humane working conditions, adequate salaries, and even something as simple as pulling back their deatht squads so they aren't breathing down their necks every day, even getting on the buses with them on their rides home, sometimes forcing them off the buses, torturing, then murdering them.

If fascist leaders will look after the interests of the determined, greedy power-mad military and industrial bosses, at the total expense of the working class, everything goes great for the leaders. Elections are manipulated, screwed relentless to favor the right-wingers, to make sure the leftists DON'T get elected.

I know you know this, but I try to repeat these things every chance I get, to blast through the troll "walls" to remind people who haven't taken the time to research to start using the internetS to suck up so much information that is finally becoming available, as more documents become declassified, over the years, and people can learn what the hey has been happening!

Phew.

So since Bolsonaro has allowed himself to let Bolton and Pompeo down on this one, he's probably going to HAVE to play ball next time they expect him to tie himself in knots to please him, or face some sanctions, or other forms of retribution.

[left-of-center2012]

3. Do we need another war?

[Judi Lynn]

4. I think Trump believes a war against our neighbors to the south would divert attention

from the terrifying "witch hunt" as it grows closer to him day by day.

The thrill of being able to spill both U.S. American and Venezuelan blood must be an temptation he will not deny himself, as well, for someone who regards the whole world as his amusement park.

[mpcamb]

5. That sick renegade from reality would stoop to any level to be a war president.

[Judi Lynn]

15. Absolutely. It would be a high " which the world has never seen before!" (Trump speak)

It would probably feed a frenzy for him that could only be tamed by constant war.

It's a shame he can't be side-lined before he could kick off his intended slaughter.

[Judi Lynn]

10. I think Trump sees it as a great diversion from the country's awareness of his legal trouble.

He would find it impossible to resist flexing that power, getting people slaughtered, by nature. If he is given the opportunity, we know he doesn't have any moral objections whatsoever to consider.

[Perseus]

7. Here you go, read a little bit of what is really happening in Venezuela

Then make up your minds whether the regime should be ousted or not.

[link:http://www.ntn24.com/|

If you don't understand Spanish, find someone who does and can translate for you.

"Este lunes la Guardia venezolana continuó reprimiendo a los jóvenes que exigen el ingreso de la ayuda humanitaria en el puente internacional Simón Bolívar"

Google translation:
On Monday, the Venezuelan Guard continued to repress the young people demanding the entry of humanitarian aid into the Simón Bolívar international bridge

[Judi Lynn]

12. Bless your heart, here you go:

Who burned the trucks with US supplies for Venezuela?

by Adriaan Alsema February 24, 2019

Colombia’s President Ivan Duque on Saturday blamed Venezuela’s border authorities of burning trucks with American aid, but this is not supported by evidence or witness accounts.

The trucks caught fire while the Venezuelan National Guard were firing teargas at the caravan and hooded men threw Molotov cocktails and rocks at the armed forces of the neighboring country.

The incineration of the trucks effectively blocked the bridge connecting the two countries and ended opposition leader Juan Guaido’s attempt to enter food supplies and medicine into his native country.

The blame game about the incident began almost immediately after the violence erupted that according to Colombia’s foreign ministry left at least 285 people injured, most because of tear gas.

In a press conference, Guaido went as far as accusing his country’s security forces loyal to authoritarian President Nicolas Maduro of having committed a crime against humanity.

More:
https://colombiareports.com/who-burned-the-trucks-with-us-supplies-for-venezuela/

[Perseus]

17. Not sure what your goal with this is

The National Guard, which is commanded by the regime burned the trucks, the regime had already set barricades to stop the aid from coming into the country.

What do you think your post accomplishes?

"285 people injured, most because of tear gas." Not true, the people were injured by bullets...Venezuelan people are so used to protesting against tear gas attacks they know how to guard themselves from it, bullets is another thing.

Also, find out who Adriaan Alsema is, in case you don't know, he wrote the article you sent in the link...he is a left wing nut case, he most probably has a shrine for Chavez and Fidel Castro at his home. The credibility of his reporting is dubious, to say the least, many of his articles have been debunked in the past.

But in any case...The people who were injured were waiting and trying to protect the humanitarian aid because the regime had already said they were not going to allow it to come into the country, find videos (videos don't lie) of Maduro & Diosdado Cabello who has more brains than Maduro saying that they would allow the shipments to come in but THEY would distribute them, and that never happens, they move it to their warehouses then sell them to the citizens, and he also made statements about the food that was coming saying that it was poisoned and for people to take the risk if they wanted. What that translates to is that the regime was most probably planning to put poison in the food to make a point, these people don't care. The citizens did not want to allow them to take over the shipments because of all the implications I just explained so they sent the national guard to shoot unarmed people.

Don't stop at one article, find out who wrote it, and continue to do your research, maybe you will come out with a different conclusion and not support Maduro and the Cuban regime in Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

24. Please share some of your sources on the "left wing nut case) Adriaan Alsema. Have never seen that.

He has been a reliable source for excellent information in the largest English language journal in Colombia, throughout the constant death threats. Colombia, over the years, has often been the world's most deadly place for journalists. Writers there have admitted in interviews that they self-censor out of fear, some journalist simply have moved out of the country after so many death threats, some continue to write, but have bullet-proof cars, body guards, and people who escort their children everywhere they go.

I have never heard anyone attacking Adriaan Alsema. You are the first, and I want to see this vital proof of his irresponsibility to the public.

Journalists in Colombia have been assassinated, gunned down in the streets, for years. He's still living. I would imagine that infuriates fascists like the ones who have run that country described as a feudal state, the same country which received over 10 billion $ between 2000 and the end of Alvaro Uribe's last term as President, the one he got after his people bribed two Colombian Senators to vote to extend his length of term to two terms, instead of the lawful one term. The Colombian government got the 10 Billion, the massive poor population got zip.

As a matter of fact, Uribe's Minister and favorite "boy" and assumed next President doled out tons of money, designated to be given to poor farmers to very RICH farmers, and even gave a large chunk of change to a former Miss Colombia. That Minister fled to the US to hide out, and is here until Colombia can get him returned to be tried for corruption.

Please spare the time to post your sources for the "goods" on Adriaan Alsema. It would be good of you to show that kind of attack coming from a credible source.

[JonLP24]

32. You are very correct about violence to journalists in Colombia

In the name of fighting drugs, the CIA financed new military intelligence networks there in 1991. But the new networks did little to stop drug traffickers. Instead, they incorporated illegal paramilitary groups into their ranks and fostered death squads. These death squads killed trade unionists, peasant leaders, human-rights monitors, journalists, and other suspected "subversives." The evidence, including secret Colombian military documents, suggests that the CIA may be more interested in fighting a leftist resistance movement than in combating drugs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Colombia

I'm not sure why being left in Latin America automatically means they can't be trusted when I don't trust the far right.

[Perseus]

18. Here, a link right here at DU

[link:https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142274531|

[Judi Lynn]

25. Your source cites two gentlemen from "US broadcaster Univision."

Univision is most clearly NOT an unbiased source. A former 25% stockholder is Venezuela's newspaper billionaire, Gustavo Cisneros, who was George H W Bush's "fishing buddy," and one of the coup-plotters in the 2002 coup against Hugo Chavez. He is still a member of the Board there. He is entirely right-wing. Immediately after the people overturned the coup Cisneros and Bush flew to the Dominican Republic to huddle and regroup at the resort owned by Pepe and Alfi Fanjul, the mega wealthy Sugar Baron brothers of pre-revolutionary Cuba, who also own extensive sugar cane operations in South Florida, on the land retrieved from swamp land by the taxpayers and the US Army Corps of Engineering.

Here's Gustavo and George H W with Pepe Fanjul in the D.R. where they were in consultation post-coup at Casa de Campo:



Here's George H W and Alfi Fanjul with their spouses:



Gustavo Cisneros and George W with the President of the D.R., Leonel Fernandez, in the suit:



Cisneros has been described as "Venezuela's Berlusconi."

From Newsweek:

HUGO'S CLOSE CALL
BY MICHAEL ISIKOFF ON 4/28/02 AT 8:00 PM

eople power it wasn't. Although more than 200,000 antigovernment protesters marched through the streets of Caracas--some to their deaths--the short-lived April 11-12 coup against President Hugo Chavez was secretly hatched by two small but powerful groups: senior military officers and several of the country's richest businessmen. The leaders of the putsch had extensive ties to the U.S. political and economic establishment. At the vortex of the whole mess was the billionaire television magnate Gustavo Cisneros, a fishing buddy of former president George H. W. Bush and king of a business empire stretching from the United States to the Southern Cone.

. . .

Some of the toughest will be about Gustavo Cisneros, 58, the suspected bankroller of the coup. The broadcast tycoon was one of Chavez's biggest backers four years ago, before the two fell out over the president's increasing tilt to the left. Cisneros denies any role in ousting Chavez, but as the coup emerged on the evening of April 11, several of its alleged leaders met at the headquarters of his Venevision TV station. Among them was Pedro Carmona, the businessman who took over as "interim president" in the early hours of April 12. "That government was put together in the offices of Gustavo Cisneros," says opposition legislator Pedro Pablo Alcantara. "The supreme chief was Cisneros." Cisneros insists he had no role in the interim regime. He calls the congressman's allegations "false, irresponsible and unacceptable."

Otto Reich, the State Department's lead man on Latin American affairs, tells NEWSWEEK he spoke with Cisneros "two or three times" during the coup. Reich says he was only seeking information, not trying to encourage or direct the plotters. "We had absolutely nothing to do with this," he says. Upon learning that Carmona had dissolved the National Assembly, Reich adds, he instructed Ambassador Shapiro to give the interim president an urgent message: "If there's going to be an extraconstitutional government, we can't work with you." It was already too late. Cisneros called Reich on Saturday afternoon to say an angry pro-Chavez mob was besieging Venevision's offices. The businessman insists that was the sole contact he had with Reich during the coup. As everything disintegrated, Cisneros was in the presidential palace, pleading in vain by phone for the public support of popular labor leader Carlos Ortega.

. . .

https://www.newsweek.com/hugos-close-call-143197


Short Forbes article:

#201 Gustavo Cisneros & family
03.10.10, 06:00 PM EST



AP Photo
Net Worth: $4.2 bil
Fortune: Inherited and Growing
Source: media
Age: 64
Country Of Citizenship: Venezuela
Residence: Caracas
Education: Babson C, Bachelor of Arts / Science
Marital Status: Married, 3 children

One of South America's most prominent businessmen oversees a diversified empire with interests in Venezuelan television stations, telecom outfits, a regional brewery and a baseball team. Sold U.S. Spanish-language TV network Univision to a private equity consortium led by U.S. billionaire Haim Saban for $700 million in 2007. After locking horns with president Hugo Chavez, Venevision, his Venezuela TV company, is avoiding politics these days, preferring to concentrate on entertainment content, including hugely popular Latin American soap operas. Cisneros and his wife are familiar figures in high society, hobnobbing with former presidents, designers and fellow billionaires; George H.W. Bush is his fishing buddy. Boasts an extensive collection of Latin American art: one favorite is an Amazonian landscape by German artist Frank W. Post. His foundation promotes education and protection of indigenous people in the Amazon basin.

https://www.forbes.com/lists/2010/10/billionaires-2010_Gustavo-Cisneros-family_GX8F.html

[Perseus]

37. Yes, the cisneros (Cuban) are very responsible for Chavez taking power

Although the Cisneros family set root in Venezuela, are extremely wealthy, they have also invested heavily in the USA, they were big supporters of Chavez and gave him a lot of money during the campaign, and they did it because they were going to, or thought, they would benefit financially from Chavez becoming president.

Yes, they are traitors to the country, and continue to be.

Gustavo Cisneros was born in Venezuela but his ancestors are Cuban, not that is relevant either, I don't think they have any loyalty to Cuba, only to their wealth.

Again, I am not sure what you are trying to prove with this information, it doesn't excuse or make less evil the maduro regime, or makes it a bad idea for the USA and the coalition to get rid of the regime.

The fact that Cisneros bankrolled Chavez doesn't mean anything, Cisneros is a traitor but the regime is full of crooks, it has destroyed the country and continues to do so, it has pilferage the riches Venezuela once had, continues to torture, kill innocent people, continues to support terrorist groups, Putin is their best friend...so what are you getting at by showing Cisneros? He is part of the problem, but the problem does not go away unless its removed by force...Once again, my apologies, but every comeback you have leaves me confused of what you are trying to prove.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Gustavos Cisneros was one of the COUP PLOTTERS, a PRIMARY plotter. Period. n/t

[Perseus]

40. He may have been, but he helped put Chavez on the presidency

When things didn't go the way Cisneros expected, he may have contributed with the coup, but that is because financially it didn't work the way he wanted.

[Perseus]

46. Where do you get that Cisneros was the primary plotter?

I would like to know where you got that information, it is inaccurate.

[Judi Lynn]

48. Newsweek magazine, for one:

HUGO'S CLOSE CALL
BY MICHAEL ISIKOFF ON 4/28/02 AT 8:00 PM

. . .

People power it wasn't. Although more than 200,000 antigovernment protesters marched through the streets of Caracas--some to their deaths--the short-lived April 11-12 coup against President Hugo Chavez was secretly hatched by two small but powerful groups: senior military officers and several of the country's richest businessmen. The leaders of the putsch had extensive ties to the U.S. political and economic establishment. At the vortex of the whole mess was the billionaire television magnate Gustavo Cisneros, a fishing buddy of former president George H. W. Bush and king of a business empire stretching from the United States to the Southern Cone.

More:
https://www.newsweek.com/hugos-close-call-143197

There are many sources for this information, clearly. I don't have so much time to spend any more rounding up multiple sources for people who know the truth, anyway, to review, when it's common knowledge. I've spent far, far too much time in my later years spending my whole day stacking up links, only for right-wing trolls to simply chance the subject and move on to another topic, and launch a new assault from there. They NEVER give up when confronted with the truth, I've discovered the time-consuming, disgusting way. The point of their bogus questions is simply to wear down their opposition.

[GatoGordo]

26. ColombiaReports isn't a legitimate source for information or objective reporting

Unless Sputnik and RussiaToday qualify as such.

[Judi Lynn]

30. Would you provide proof Colombia Reports deals in misinformation?

I've never heard that accusation other than from you and from the other one on this thread, and I've been reading it for many YEARS.

Please dignify your charges by with evidence.

[LanternWaste]

33. You'll supply objective evidence to support your allegation, yes?

[EX500rider]

11. US could do it with Marines & Paratroopers/Rangers if we were going to.

A few carriers offshore, a MEU or 2 (Marine Expeditionary Unit), some 82nd Airborne, 75th Rangers, B-52's ect.
Also Caracas is only about 525 miles from Puerto Rico.
Not saying we should, just saying we could.

[Judi Lynn]

13. And what sense would that make?

[EX500rider]

14. Just pointing out the US does not need Brazil, Puerto Rico is close enough. nt

[Perseus]

19. If you are open minded and try to read the article then it makes sense

My apologies but I do have a hard time following and understanding your responses...a fat guy in fighting outfit? Please translate...

The link I sent you shows a young man with a bleeding eye from the result of the national armed forces aggression against the people of Venezuela whose only act was to help bring the aid through so they can have food, medicines, etc. Your fighter? Not sure what that accomplishes...

[Cold War Spook]

16. Venezuela has an active military of 130,000 men.

If we did decide to invade a country not at war with the US, how many Marines and other military personnel should we send? As for 52s, are you suggesting we could carpet bomb the country?

[Perseus]

20. Venezuelan army has never fought a war

They are not the bravest soldiers you will find, they will run for cover, they are not used to being shot back, they are only brave when they shoot innocent people who do not shoot back. They are ill-prepared, they have never seen combat, an example is their aggression against Venezuelan indians, rifles against spears and bow-and-arrows, the army killed a few natives but the natives were able to capture two of the army's leaders and they still have them arrested. The natives, with spears, bow-and-arrows were also able to injure a few of the army soldiers and send them on a retreat.

The fact that there may be 130,000? and I don't dispute that number because I really don't know, does not mean much. Now, there is another fact, and the reason why so many soldiers have defected to Colombia and the numbers will continue to rise...Cubans have infiltrated the Venezuelan military, Chavez and Maduro later, appointed many of these Cubans to high ranking positions, which is illegal of course, but what else is new, so the soldiers hate these Cubans, so more of them will be crossing to Colombia every day, and the day that the coalition decides to attack, most of the ones remaining will take their uniforms off and hide.

Also, USA is not alone, Colombia/Brazil/England form the coalition, in spite of what the Brazil vice president said yesterday.

[Cold War Spook]

21. I know Trump doesn't care,

but how many dead Marines are Americans willing to accept for the oil? How many wars are we willing to be fighting? How long are we willing to have them in Venezuela? I can't find where Venezuela has been invaded. If it hasn't been how do we know what their army is capable of. Killing innocents is one thing, but being invaded is another. When a country is invaded, the military will usually put up a better fight. Fight in the cities making the US kill more civilians than soldiers. I don't know anything about their military leadership, but I would make the US kill civilians and I would have the press taking lot of pictures of the "massacre of civilians". What gives the US a legal right to invade a sovereign state with out a vote to do so in the UN?

[Perseus]

22. The military leadership is very corrupt, and some of it is from Cuba

I believe the corrupt officials who have been sucking on oil money, and other income that should have gone to the Venezuelans will fly away with their families. I understand that Diosdado Cabello's family is already in Russia, some others have already moved to the USA, if you go to Doral in Miami, or Weston, FL you will find many of them there along with "ex-officials" from the regime who are living in huge mansions in the country they called the "imperial enemy", "capitalist pigs" and any name you can think of, but always came to buy $8,000.00 gold iPhones and other things.

There are a lot of those in Miami with very expensive property in the Brickell complexes, and other upper class areas, living like kings with stolen money.

Because of the above I don't see "massacre of civilians" happening, this would be a country that would truly welcome the USA and its coalition as liberators. The massacre has already been done by the regime and the Cubans, and its still going. It is hard to believe the atrocities the regime has carried on in Venezuela. Students who dared to protest are still being tortured, many killed after being tortured, young women students raped, anything horrible that you can think of has and continues to happen in Venezuela.

For those who think that a dialog must be the first recourse do not understand that many dialogs have been tried with zero results, the regime lies and will not give up their power, the last chance for Venezuela is a military intervention, nothing else will do it. Forget about the suspicion of the oil, the Venezuelan oil industry is in shambles, the regime is incompetent and has destroyed a great part of it, they don't know how to run it, and all they do is pocket the money that comes in and that money never goes back to better the country. I wish people would stop rejecting the possibility of an intervention, the negative effects of not doing so will be felt throughout the World when Putin takes over, and that is what makes me so suspicious about the threats from the orange buffoon and Pence, but nothing happens...are they following orders from Putin for him to take over?

[LanternWaste]

34. What objective evidence leads you to that specific conclusion?

What objective evidence do you have to support your allegation that "they are only brave when they shoot innocent people who do not shoot back..."?

(sources from the Internet Research Agency don't count as objective btw)

[Perseus]

35. Because I have family and friends who live there, because I have lived there

Because I talk to people who lived there every day, because I read about Venezuela every day, because I know people in the military who had to leave the country because they would not play their games.

I do know a lot about what happens in Venezuela. I know people from both sides, I despise those with the regime, they have betrayed their county for money, although Maduro is from Colombia but educated in Cuba, he doesn't care about Venezuela, he is a product of the Castro regime and he was placed there because he is an ignorant puppet that Castro can manipulate. Look at the videos, they don't lie.

During April 11 2002, when Chavez was ousted, a good friend of mine was walking in one of the marches, a person who was walking by him was shot between the eyes by a sniper, it could have been him. The brother of a friend of mine, a good engineer and family man, was shot in cold blood during a concentration in Plaza Bolivar in Caracas by a national guard, this happens every day in Venezuela. I don't need to show you videos, or links to articles, you can do the research yourself.

Because I have seen the military run when they get real opposition from the citizens, even when these do not have weapons. By the way, this is not a criticism on the lower ranked soldiers, most of them come from very humble families, very poor families and the military gives them a place where they can eat, and live without worries, but they are not trained well, their physical conditions are not ones that would represent a fighting soldier, they are not well educated and all they do is follow orders. Right now they follow orders from Cubans who have been placed in high ranking positions by Chavez and Maduro...by the Castro regime, actually.

I encourage you to find information, you can look at the regime's sites, but they lie, if you look at photos of participation on regime gatherings you will find Photoshop mistakes made to augment the number of participants. Look at independent videos and you will actually be impressed by the evil of the regime.

I said I would not provide links, but this one is from the BBC, and gives a glimpse of what goes on there:
[link:http://caraotalibre.cf/nacionales/bbc-destapo-en-un-documental-las-violaciones-cometidas-en-el-helicoide/|

Good luck.

[Judi Lynn]

63. You go out of your way to mock the poor people in Venezuela.

You also take time trying to revile the indigenous Venezuelan citizens.

No sense of history?

No real respect for human beings?

It does show through so clearly, and it doesn't appear that bothers you. That's a shame.

List of wars involving Venezuela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Venezuela

[EX500rider]

23. B-52's don't carpet bomb anymore, they release JDAM's on specific targets.

And the Venezuelan military would fold faster then a bad hand at poker. They have zero combat experience going back over 50 years, Chavez & Maduro stuffed the officer's corp with yes-men, and the lower rank and file is fed up with the current regimen and would melt away as fast as they could.

Actually as of 2018, the armed forces had 351,000 personnel. But they literally have a handful of modern fighter planes, without air superiority they have no chance.

Now if you are looking for some crowd control they are your guys.

[Sapient Donkey]

43. Didn't most of the Iraqi units flee from battle during the US/UK invasion?

The occupation seems to be the real problems in these situations. Obviously not exactly the same situation as Iraq, but I would imagine such a occupation by the US would serve as a rallying cry for socialists, communist, and whatever else people from the region and maybe around the globe. Even if we had compelling reasons to invade and occupy VZ until it is stabilized by the new government, I would not trust this administration to handle that.

That being said, I don't see any compelling reasons for the US to be involved in that with ground troops. If regional powers go in to secure peace and there are diplomatic solutions being ironed out, then support that by all means. It seems like US military action would just make things worse. Based on your comments, I'm assuming you're not advocating US military action either.

[GatoGordo]

28. Venezuela has fought no one in over 150 years

Yet that fact hasn't kept their Castroist military hierarchy from festooning themselves with chests full of ribbons and medals. I have a US military background (US Army officer, 20 years), and when I see the number of ribbons on Vlad Padrino for service to the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (having never fired a weapon at anything more sinister than a balloon) I have to laugh.

The vast majority of the FANB are poorly educated, and are more likely to dance like 7 year olds than to support a regime that doesn't pay them, doesn't feed them and treats them like cannon fodder. If Los Pepes and the Colombian Army (50+ years of guerrilla fighting the FARC, ELN) comes across the border into Venezuela? You can bet that the FANB will be wishing their fatigues were brown instead of green as it would match the shit pouring into their trousers.

And Padrino will be looking for the nearest burn barrel to throw his well decorated uniform into.

ALL THAT BEING SAID, a lot of people think what they see on TV/movies (military) is what is real life. It isn't like that. I know one guy who insists that all it would take is one helicopter full of The Expendibles and a couple of Apaches to topple Chavismo.

[Perseus]

29. Very good summary

Padrino will be gone before the coalition has time to get in, Cabello already moved his family to Russia, they are rich beyond belief from all the money they and other high ranking officers have put in their pockets, and as the lower ranks? They will give up their weapons in a flash, like you said, they and their families are hungry and desperate as well, the "Rob-olution" has not been good to them only to the big crooks.

There is a video out there from a couple of months ago when the gas tank exploded during some military gathering at some plaza, when the soldiers heard the bang they started running like ants on an ant pile when someone steps on it, they started running all over the place, and that goes for the high ranking soldiers too.

[MRubio]

54. I don't believe the reports that Cabello has moved his family to Russia.

I watched his program Wednesday evening, live, and his wife and both sons were on the stage with him while his daughter sang with her famous boyfriend singer. Program #243 of Con El Mazo Dando, for those interested.

[Judi Lynn]

31. I' ve seen references to the poor (indigenous, African-Venezuelan, and mixed heritage)

referred to in very deprecating terms on this message board very recently by one poster, maybe two. I just ignored it, of course, as it was stupid.

However, seeing it repeated reminded me of the way very racist, twisted European-descended a-holes view the poor throughout the Americas, and probably everywhere.

[Perseus]

36. Actually, Venezuela doesn't have the issues the USA has with racism

Yes, there is some of it, I won't deny it, by the country is very diverse. If you find old pictures of congress you will find diversity at its best.

You may be surprised that a common nickname for people with darker skin is "negro", and they wear their nickname with pride, there is never any connotation that can be considered racist. Same with indigenous people, they are treated the same, Jews, Arabs, anything from anywhere form Venezuelan society.

After World War II there were a lot of immigrants from Europe, lots from Portugal, Italy, Germany, Spain, etc. who set roots in Venezuela, they assimilated and never left.

Not sure who you read that had derogatory things to say about "indigenous, African-Venezuelan, and mixed heritage" in Venezuela in terms of poor because they don't constitute the poor class excludively, they are all mixed and some of them have a lot of money, are well educated and many of them were educated in "Universidad Central" and "Universidad Simon Bolivar", for free. These were two of the best universities in Latin America for many years, until the Chavez/Maduro regime destroyed education in the country.

Some of the best doctors and dentists in the World were educated at "Universidad Central", you will find them in hospitals in the USA as heads of departments, such is the "Mass General Hospital" in Boston, MA

[Judi Lynn]

38. Small excerpt from Wikipedia:

Venezuela
When the Venezuelan War of Independence started, the Spanish enlisted the Llaneros, playing on their dislike of the criollos of the independence movement. José Tomás Boves led an army of llaneros which routinely killed white Venezuelans. After several more years of war, which killed half of Venezuela's white population, the country achieved independence from Spain in 1821.[13][14]

In Venezuela, like other South American countries, economic inequality often breaks along ethnic and racial lines.[15] A 2013 Swedish academic study stated that Venezuela was the most racist country in the Americas,[15] followed by the Dominican Republic.[15]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_South_America

~ ~ ~

Venezuela’s long history of racism is coming back to haunt it
August 16, 2017 4.30am EDT

. . .

The ugly truth
Before Hugo Chávez was elected in 1998, Venezuela attracted little international attention. It was seen as exceptionally stable by Latin American standards, and was best known for its beauty queens and its oil. Those national icons represent the racial and cultural politics that are driving today’s unrest.

Let’s start with the beauty queens. While a majority of Venezuelans identify as black, indigenous or mestizo (mixed-race), the country’s beauty queens invariably conform to white beauty ideals. The organiser of the country’s most important beauty pageant has stated that black women are not pretty because their noses are “too wide” and their lips “too thick”. Afro hair is commonly referred to as pelo malo – “bad hair”.

These aesthetic values have political, cultural and economic counterparts. In the mid-19th century, several Latin American governments implemented “whitening” policies along the ideological lines laid out in books such as Facundo: Civilisation and Barbarism. Large scale European migration was promoted for the “improvement” of “the race”. In Venezuela, these policies continued until the 1940s.

This belief in the natural superiority of Europeans was also evident in the economically crucial, foreign-owned oil sector. Professionals and middle managers were white Venezuelans, but labourers were recruited from black and mixed-race sectors. By the time oil was nationalised in 1976, the Venezuelan middle class it helped to create had come to identify with US-style political, cultural and consumer patterns. For these Venezuelans, dubbed “miameros” because of their frequent shopping trips to Miami, oil symbolised civilisation, while the black and mixed-race masses represented the perceived barbarism of the past.

But Venezuela’s apparent “exceptionalism” was an illusion. In the 1960s and 1970s, the “common sense” ideas of progress and modernity promulgated by the oil industry and backed by the government ran into trouble. Social tensions developed around the unequal access to oil profits, and strong currents of barrio and grassroots activism began to surge. The situation worsened in the 1980s as oil prices dropped and the bolívar currency was devalued.

In February 1989, the Caracazo uprisings broke out in anger at newly-imposed, right wing economic reforms. An ensuing military crackdown claimed the lives of more than 400 people, mainly from the barrios. To this day, poorer Venezuelans remember this state violence as an act carried out to protect the interests of the wealthy middle classes and their foreign allies. As a woman from the 22 de Enero barrio told me in 2008: “You never saw anybody on the right protesting against the shooting of us; [they] … never cried when we were shot.”

. . .

Maduro’s popularity has fallen significantly this year, but many who have withdrawn their support for him feel alienated by the opposition’s anti-poor discourse. They fear that a return to the political right would reverse the gains made under Chavismo, and worse. Their fears are not theoretical; as observed by Gabriel Hetland of the State University of New York at Albany, the opposition has carried out “brutal attacks” directed at “black and brown men … and other people who look Chavista”.

The crisis in Venezuela is not simply a matter of left wing versus right wing political and economic systems. It is also rooted in competing ideas about racial and cultural worth. The ugly truth is that for some, it is still a matter of civilisation versus barbarism.

. . .

http://theconversation.com/venezuelas-long-history-of-racism-is-coming-back-to-haunt-it-82199

~ ~ ~

‘Pigmentocracy’ a Major Factor in Brazil, Venezuela Turmoil
BY RAY LEGENDRE ON AUGUST 11, 2016

. . .

To Brazil’s north, Venezuela is a nation struggling with food and money shortages as grim as its neighbor’s opening ceremonies were glitzy. Generally, in Latin America, the roots of economic disequilibrium are found in race, Hernández noted. Venezuela is no exception. To speak of poor Venezuelans is to speak of Venezuelans of African ancestry, the professor added.

In the past decade, presidents for of both Venezuela and Brazil have championed racially inclusive programs, breaking a long-held taboo in Latin American politics. They introduced wealth redistribution policies and incorporated more African descendents into positions of governmental power than ever before. The leaders responsible for these changes, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva of Brazil and the late Hugo Chavez of Venezuela, no longer hold power.

. . .

Mass protests have packed major cities across both countries. However, who is protesting and why is not always as it appears from a distance. Observed up close, protests in both countries revolve around lighter-skinned elites’ desire to retake control and squelch reform efforts, Hernández said.

Ultimately, ascertaining who stands to suffer the most in both countries remains sadly predictable. The economic hardships present in Venezuela belie the fact that the food shortage does not exist in equal opportunity for the elites, the professor explained. Nor is corruption, a political virus in both countries, a dynamic that cuts across class.

“Corruption hits hardest for those viewed as most expendable,” Hernández said. “Unfortunately social expendability in Latin America and these two countries aligns on a race spectrum, a pigment spectrum.”

More:
http://news.law.fordham.edu/blog/2016/08/11/pigmentocracy-a-major-factor-in-brazil-venezuela-turmoil/

ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC.

[Perseus]

41. "While a majority of Venezuelans identify as black, indigenous or mestizo" -- This is not true

This must have come from a 1920 Atlas...

As I have said before, Venezuela is a melting pot, many Europeans migrated to Venezuela after World War II, and way before that, it is a very diverse society.

"Venezuela attracted little international attention." Another line which is not true. Venezuela was one of the founders of OPEC, I believe that caused some attention...Why would the USA out Perez Jimenez? There has always been a lot of attention on Venezuela due to its geographic location, and its natural riches.

"he crisis in Venezuela is not simply a matter of left wing versus right wing political and economic systems. It is also rooted in competing ideas about racial and cultural worth." - Not sure who wrote this and where they get their information. The problems in Venezuela are due to Cuban intervention...Anyway...

[Judi Lynn]

42. Oh, please. What about the riot US Vice President Nixon caused by visiting Caracas in 1958?

Cubans had not even had their revolution by that time.

The real Venezuelan people despised Richard Nixon, and there was no mixed message when he was lucky to make it to his airplane and get home, where the papers and magazines set up an uproar, threw pictures up immediately, and acted as if it was the end of the world that Venezuelans stormed his car, broke the windows, shouted for him to go home, etc., etc.

Cuba had NOTHING to do with that, and I don't think you can manufacture an explanation to blame Cuba for it.

[Perseus]

45. The Cuban revolution started in 1953

And yes, Fidel Castro had a lot of fans in Venezuela at the time, he conned a lot of people, even in the USA, unfortunately Cubans, Venezuelans and other countries did not listen to the warning from people like Nixon (I was not fan of Nixon) about Fidel Castro, and I am sure you will agree that Castro made Cuba a paradise for its people to live in, right?

Do you really know "Real Venezuelan People"? What do you call "Real Venezuelan People"? Unless you are from Venezuela and have lived there you have no idea who the "Real Venezuelan People" are. Like in most countries of Latin America, communism has always been a part of the culture, in the sense that there have always been communist parties trying to convince people of their rhetoric, but what you may not understand is that South Americans like the easy life, they like the parties, dancing, singing, to make love, they live to party, if possible every night...This thing of communism has never been anything taken very seriously. As an example, Teodoro Petkoff was for many years the leader of the communist party in Venezuela, he owned a few Rolls Royce, lived in a very big house, attended all of society's big parties, like those at the "Country Club", "El Paraiso", etc. He was never taken seriously, to an extent that he was allowed to run for president on every election. Venezuela, and the "Real Venezuelans" have always loved the USA, and those protesters you are referring to were a very tiny minority, some of them spent years at the University causing riots, never graduating...I wish you would not talk about the "Real Venezuelan People" if you are not one of them, because if you are not, then you don't know.

[Judi Lynn]

47. The real Venezuelan people are the massive poor population, not the fair-skinned racist elites. n/t

[MRubio]

49. And with every passing day that massive poor population gets more and more poor.......

.............massively.

[Judi Lynn]

51. After all, it's not as if our government has been trying to destroy that government from the moment

it was learned Hugo Chavez was going to run for the Presidency.

That just wouldn't happen, would it?

"Make the economy scream" HAS worked perfectly for them before, but nooooo, they aren't interested in destroying ALL leftist governments and controlling every government in the Americas, are they?

Many serious adults have learned about Richard M. Nixon's order to his CIA chief, Richard Helms whe he told him he intended to "make the economy scream" in Chile, just as other economies have been made to scream around the world when they got on the wrong side of a belligerent anti-Democratic Washington administration. People who don't spend their lives drunk have time to study, and think, and go ahead and learn those things the corporate media never felt like sharing with the US population.

[MRubio]

56. You can talk about Richard Nixon all day long.........

........chavismo has screwed this pooch all by itself. Only recently has Venezuela learned what a real economic war is like.

[Judi Lynn]

57. You deliberately try to sidestep the point, and the point will always remain.

Here's a book which has been widely read, all over the world, for years, and quoted innumerable times, which shouldn't be too difficult for even the most determinedly stubborn to understand:

Confessions of an Economic Hit Man is a partly autobiographical book written by John Perkins published in 2004. It provides Perkins' account of his career with engineering consulting firm Chas. T. Main in Boston. According to Perkins, his role at Main was to convince leaders of underdeveloped countries to accept substantial development loans for large construction and engineering projects that would primarily help the richest families and local elites, rather than the poor, while making sure that these projects were contracted to U.S. companies. Later these loans would give the U.S. political influence and access to natural resources for U.S. companies.[1] He refers to this as an "economic hit man." Although he states that throughout his career he has always worked for private companies, and suggests a system of corporatocracy and greed, rather than a single conspiracy, he claims the involvement of the National Security Agency (NSA), with whom he had interviewed for a job before joining Main. According to the author, this interview effectively constituted an independent screening which led to his subsequent hiring as an economic hit man by Einar Greve,[2] a vice president of the firm (and alleged NSA liaison).

Content
The book heavily criticizes U.S. foreign policy and the widely accepted idea that "all economic growth benefits humankind, and that the greater the growth, the more widespread the benefits.",[3] suggesting that in many cases only a small portion of the population benefits at the expense of the rest, with the example including increasing income inequality where large U.S. companies exploit cheap labor and oil companies destroy local environment.[3] Perkins describes what he calls a system of corporatocracy and greed as the driving force behind establishing the United States as a global empire, in which he took a role as an "economic hit man" to expand its influence.

According to his book, Perkins' function was to convince the political and financial leadership of underdeveloped countries to accept enormous development loans from institutions like the World Bank and USAID. Saddled with debts they could not hope to pay, those countries were forced to acquiesce to political pressure from the United States on a variety of issues. Perkins argues in his book that developing nations were effectively neutralized politically, had their wealth gaps driven wider and economies crippled in the long run. In this capacity, Perkins recounts his meetings with some prominent individuals, including Graham Greene and Omar Torrijos. Perkins describes the role of an economic hit man as follows:

Economic hit men (EHMs) are highly paid professionals who cheat countries around the globe out of trillions of dollars. They funnel money from the World Bank, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID), and other foreign "aid" organizations into the coffers of huge corporations and the pockets of a few wealthy families who control the planet's natural resources. Their tools included fraudulent financial reports, rigged elections, payoffs, extortion, sex, and murder. They play a game as old as empire, but one that has taken on new and terrifying dimensions during this time of globalization.

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

There have been many more books available on the SAME subject, so anyone who really doesn't know what has been going on all these years, and thinks it's about time to overcome the appalling ignorance, will be able to start catching up in no time at all. The answer is everywhere.

[MRubio]

58. Are you actually arguing that the shape of Venezuela's economy today is the fault of.............

.......someone other than Chavez's 21st century socialism? Perkins perhaps?

Chavez was blessed with the highest oil prices in history and still managed to wreck the country's ability to produce its basic needs, most importantly food, but eventually, even oil.

[EX500rider]

59. Nice racist comment there, the "real Venz. people" are all her inhabitants. nt

[MRubio]

50. "Because I have seen the military run when they get real opposition from the citizens...."

That reminds me, did you see that video of the loyal and brave troops lined up in front of Jowls when that drone exploded overhead?

God dammit that was funny. I was watching live.

[Judi Lynn]

52. Yeah, right. Who is "Jowls?" Thanks for your scholarly, trustworthy information. n/t

[MRubio]

55. Jowls is Maduro, haven't you ever seen a photo or video of the man?

I heard a local call him pantalla ancha the other day. LOL.....wide screen.

And with prices doubling every other week, trust me, you don't need to be a scholar to know people are getting poorer every day that goes by.

[link:|

[Judi Lynn]

61. Oh, you mean you want to take time to mock Maduro's fat cheeks? I see.

I recall there were a couple of complete a##holes here who used to mock Hugo Chavez' heaviness right up to the day he died of cancer.

[EX500rider]

64. Yes when your country is starving and u are in charge and fat, people will notice..just like N Korea

[MRubio]

65. Chavez was probably fat from side-effects of his cancer treatment. Jowls is fat because........

......he eats too much while his loyal subjects eat scraps out of the back of the garbage truck.....assuming they can find a functioning garbage truck. Slight difference there.

[Perseus]

66. Judi Lynn, who are you? Where are you?

From your defense of Chavizmo, Maduro, the regime, the willfully ignoring what is really happening in Venezuela, calling one group of people "Real Venezuelan People" while dismissing the rest, those who were born, grew up, defended, and many died defending against the maduro regime, you must be a troll for the maduro regime.

Not only are you presenting irrelevant stories, like that of Nixon when Venezuela was a fully democratic country, but insulting 1/2 of the Venezuelan people by calling just 1/2 of them the "Real Venezuelan People" when that is so far from the truth.

To ignore the fact that this regime has destroyed Venezuela is naive, or simply trying to defend a crooked regime, the posts you have shown so far usually divert from the topic at hand, like the Nixon stuff which is of no consequence to the current situation.

Unless you are trolling for the maduro regime, I think you should visit Venezuela for a week, and see how it goes for you there, but then again you may already be there now.

Was there corruption in Venezuela before Chavez? Yes, plenty of it, as a matter of fact, I have told many of my Venezuelan friends that I feel Chavez is the product of corrupt governments that went amok, forgot to keep a balance and allowed the middle-class to suffer. When the middle-class suffers it mean the poor are getting poorer and bad things will happen.

I happen to be visiting friends in 1998, at the end of the campaign, and I told my friends that Chavez campaign was on of the best I had seen. His rhetoric touched on everything the country needed, number one was to get rid of the corruption. Friends who knew Chavez warned me that it was nothing but rhetoric, that his alliance with Fidel Castro was very dangerous and the same tactics Castro used to take power in Cuba was being used in Venezuela. I admitted to being a neophyte of Venezuelan politics at the time, but everything these friends told me that would happen happened.

Please inform yourself from different views, go to Venezuela (unless you are there already), seeing things in real time may open your eyes to the truth.

[MRubio]

67. Perseus, did you see my comment above about Godgiven Hair's family?

At least as of this past Wednesday evening, it appeared they were all still in Venezuela. I was actually most surprised to see Daniella as I thought she was living comfortably in Brazil......instead of comfortably in Venzuela.

I suspect he's got them all there and displayed them on his show to quell concern that he'd moved them out of the country because things were getting critical. Having said that, I'm sure he's got a plan to get them out in a hurry when things really heat up.

The Wednesday night that his show is either cancelled or a re-run, I'll know the shit has hit, or is about to hit the fan.

I'll keep you guys posted.

[MRubio]

68. I was here when Chavez was elected and told anyone who would listen............

........that the man would use the country's wealth and resources to promise a free lunch to everyone while slowly but surely taking away their hard-earned rights to decide how, and who, would run their country. Finally the point would be reached that when they realized what was happening to them, it would be too late.

Many who supported him initially realized this early-on and fought him but he eventually prevailed with the siren song of even more free shit and a very heavy hand against his antagonists. His 21st century socialist "project" was shifted into high gear after those early battles.

Chavez enjoyed the highest oil prices in the history of the country and wrecked the country's capacity to produce while enriching friends and family to the tune of billions of dollars of Venezuelan treasure.

Maduro's regime has taken corruption to new heights. Now they're almost out of money, PDVSA has been crippled by theft mismanagement, and incompetence and like a drug-addict who thinks just one more fix will solve everything, Maduro is begging China and Russia to pull his fat out of the fire once again.

As Neil Young said, every junkie's like a setting sun and Jowls is no different.

[okaawhatever]

70. +10,000 nt

[Perseus]

69. By the way Judi Lynn, here is a photo of Guaido, and an article of him going back to Venezuela

You will learn from the picture that he represents the Venezuelan demographics.

[link:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/04/guaido-venezuela-return-maduro-us-washington|

And here is a bio on wikileaks

[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Guaid%C3%B3|

And some more for you to learn about the country:

Demographics of Venezuela
[link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Venezuela|

"The Venezuelan people comprise a combination of heritages. The historically present Amerindians, Spanish colonists, and African slaves have all contributed to varying degrees. Later, waves of European groups (Italians, Portuguese and Germans) migrated to Venezuela in the 20th century, influencing many aspects of Venezuelan life, including its culture, language, food, and music. "

I hope it helps...

[Renew Deal]

53. Then invade Brazil first

Bwahahahahaha

[2naSalit]

60. Good.

for whatever that's worth.