Contradicting Trump, Otto Warmbier's parents blame North Korean leader Kim Jung Un for the death of
Source: NBC News
The parents of Otto Warmbier issued a blistering statement on Friday saying Kim Jong Un and his government "are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity" after President Donald Trump asserted that the North Korean dictator was unaware of the harrowing treatment the student endured while detained there.
"We have been respectful during this summit process. Now we must speak out. Kim and his evil regime are responsible for the death of our son Otto," Fred and Cindy Warmbier said in a blistering statement. "Kim and his evil regime are responsible for unimaginable cruelty and inhumanity. No excuses or lavish praise can change that."
Warmbier, 22, was arrested for taking a propaganda banner from a hotel while on a visit to Pyongyang in January 2016. The University of Virginia student from Ohio was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor, but was released after 17 months. He died shortly after he returned to the U.S.
His parents were told he had been in a coma since not long after he was sentenced. When he was brought back to Cincinnati after his release, his father said he "was jerking violently making these inhuman sounds.”
Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/contradicting-trump-otto-warmbier-s-parents-blame-north-korean-leader-n978106
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thegoose
(3,115 posts)I feel horrible for them, but they should speak out against these twin dictators. Despicable.
exboyfil
(18,359 posts)though.
I am not sure why Trump destroyed his narrative like that.
deurbano
(2,986 posts)
LenaBaby61
(6,991 posts)About what US Fatso said about believing NO Ko Fatso, as it relates to the death of their son.
Upon further reflection ....
They went all IN on treasonous US Fatso, who says that he's still "Totally in love with" No Ko Fatso 🙄
karynnj
(60,968 posts)From memory, which could be wrong, ONLY as arrangements were made for their son to come home did they learn that he was and had been in a coma since shortly after he was sentenced. Until then, they were working with the US government, under both administrations to get their son back - fully expecting that he would return and maybe after some recuperation be as he they last saw him.
Again, from memory, they attacked Obama because his administration had said they were working through diplomatic channels using Sweden and recommended the family not attack NK. The US did not have relations with NK although there were some earlier times when some Americans were brought out -- most famously when Bill Clinton flew there to get them. In retrospect, I would guess that in his case, the North Koreans could not agree to let him out because he already was in a coma, for which they rightfully would be blamed.
When he returned, they suddenly learned that their son was essentially dead. I can't imagine how angry, grief stricken I would be in their situation. A small part of that would be second guessing whether they or the Obama administration could have done something different leading to their son being let out before he suffered whatever happened. THAT feeling could easily have been further amplified by the Trump et al comments that THEY, not Obama got him back.
One question I would have is when people from the Swedish embassy last saw him. If they were denied access, was that information passed by the Obama administration to the family? If it was, the sad story was that an American ignored State Department warnings, went to NK, was arrested in spite of doing nothing that should have led to anything wrong enough to deserve jail, and he was essentially murdered.
The family blamed NK for killing their son. They blamed the Obama administration for not getting him returned and praised Trump for getting him back. Now they are implicitly expressing their discuss with Trump. I would imagine that they still hold the Obama administration responsible for not quickly getting their son out. The alternative is to blame their son for going into NK - and going in without awareness of the risk of doing anything not allowed.
obamanut2012
(29,369 posts)(not true), and praised Trump. They suck.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,498 posts)The latter is good for a cheap photo op, but the former he'll always see himself in.
Maybe Andrew Pollock will eventually realize this fact, too.
dalton99a
(94,115 posts)
deurbano
(2,986 posts)since Americans are kept in separate accommodations and not physically tortured (since they will one day be returned), but suffer severe psychological torture that has caused some suicide attempts even after they have been returned.
It's very sad to read. I initially thought Otto was pretty reckless to go there, but now I think he was just adventurous (going on a North Korean government-approved visit, after all)...and had a bit of the invincibility of youth, especially since he had been so successful at everything he had ever done. Basically, it seems he attempted to kill himself right after he was sentenced to 15 years.... and then he was in this severely brain injured state immediately, and in a hospital (for foreigners) for 15 months until released. But he had no pressure ulcers and was well nourished, so they took good care of him (physically) for that entire time. The Obama administration tried to intervene to bring him home through the Swedish ambassador, and Bill Richardson was part of a back channel, but Otto's condition was never revealed during these negotiation attempts. (Apparently, his condition was not actually known to the Koreans involved in negotiations.)
https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story
<<...The day after the Warmbiers went on national television to declare that Otto had been “systematically tortured and intentionally injured,” a coroner who had examined Otto, Dr. Lakshmi Kode Sammarco, unexpectedly called a press conference. She explained that she hadn't previously done so out of respect for the Warmbiers. But her findings, and those of the doctors who had attended Otto, contradicted the Warmbiers' assertions.
Fred had described Otto's teeth as having been “re-arranged” with pliers, but Sammarco reiterated that the postmortem exam found that “the teeth [were] natural and in good repair.” She discovered no significant scars, dismissing the one on his foot as not definitively indicative of anything. Other signs of physical trauma were also lacking. Both sides of Otto's brain had suffered simultaneously, meaning it had been starved of oxygen. (Blows to the head would have likely resulted in asymmetrical, rather than universal, damage.) Though the Warmbiers declined a surgical autopsy, non-invasive scans found no hairline bone fractures or other evidence of prior trauma. “His body was in excellent condition,” Sammarco said. “I'm sure he had to have round-the-clock care to be able to maintain the skin in the condition it was in.” When asked about the Warmbiers' claims, Sammarco answered, “They're grieving parents. I can't really make comments on what they said or their perceptions. But here in this office, we depend on science for our conclusions.” Three other individuals who had close contact with Otto on his return also did not notice any physical signs consistent with torture....
...But that doesn't mean that North Korea doesn't psychologically torture detained Americans—in fact, it has always tried to bludgeon them into mental submission.... While some previous detainees were allowed letters from home, it seems that North Korea denied Otto any contact with the outside world. His only break from the interrogations was likely watching North Korean propaganda films. The psychic trauma of all this has sent previous detainees into crushing depressions, and even driven some to attempt suicide.
In the footage of his news-conference confession, Otto looked physically healthy, but as he sobbed for his freedom, he was obviously in extreme mental distress. Two weeks later, in mid-March, as Otto was filmed after being sentenced to 15 years of hard labor, his body still looked whole, but his expression was vacant and he had to be supported by two guards as he was dragged out of the courthouse—as if the life had drained out of him....
...“The staff at Friendship Hospital said they received Otto the morning after the trial and that when he came in he was unresponsive,” Dr. Flueckiger told me. “They had to resuscitate him, then give him oxygen and put him on a ventilator, or he would die.” As Yun, the negotiator who helped free Otto, said, “The doctors were clear that he had been brought to the hospital within a day of his trial, and that he had been in that same room until I saw him.”...
...Even if North Korea didn't beat Otto, that doesn't mean that he wasn't tortured, as the mental suffering the regime inflicted on him constitutes torture under the U.N. definition. As Tomás Ojea Quintana, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on human rights for North Korea, said, “Otto's rights were violated on every level.”>>
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)We don't have enough information to determine that. There are different ways that can happen. The Coroner's office did not see signs of physical torture, though.
There is no evidence his condition was from a suicide attempt.
deurbano
(2,986 posts)thinks it is the theory best supported by the facts of the case, but there is no direct evidence of suicide. I think the main issue is the legitimacy of the timeline. If his timeline is correct (and Otto entered the hospital with the catastrophic brain injury the day after sentencing), suicide seems the most likely explanation; otherwise, another explanation might be as or more compelling. While there is no direct evidence of suicide, his brain injury could have been the result of a suicide attempt (and other American prisoners in North Korea have tried to kill themselves). On the other hand, no other American prisoners have reported being physically tortured, and Otto didn’t have injuries consistent with beatings or other other physical torture.
So what did cause the brain injury? The fact that he was admitted to the hospital the day after sentencing means he didn’t have time to have a work accident or other labor camp accident… and the timing would also suggest a suicide attempt (from despair at the severe sentence coupled with the psychological torture he'd been enduring?) as more likely than a sudden allergic reaction, infection or illness... although maybe a stress-induced heart attack is a possibility? (But he was young and quite athletic, so there would probably have had to be some undiagnosed, underlying condition...)
<<Speculation suggested that the tragedy might have occurred at a special labor camp for foreigners, where at least three Americans have performed their hard-labor sentences. There they were forced to plant soybeans or make bricks while living in spartan conditions... Certainly, it would have been more likely for any type of tragedy—over-exertion under a furnace sun, a work accident, or even directed beatings—to occur in that barbed-wire-enclosed valley a few miles outside Pyongyang. But Otto almost certainly never made it to the labor camp…Without knowing about the revised time line of Otto's injury, experts I spoke to overwhelmingly identified some kind of accident—for example, an allergic reaction—as the most likely cause for Otto's unconsciousness. The likelihood that his brain damage happened immediately after the sentencing, however, raises the possibility that he may have attempted suicide….>>
While there is no evidence of physical torture, the psychological torture is known to be brutal, and other American prisoners HAVE attempted suicide, so again, a suicide attempt seems (to me) the most “likely” explanation when looking at the experience of previous prisoners, the timeline of Otto’s injury and the physical evidence (or rather, lack of evidence for torture) as described by the coroner.
<<Imagine what Otto must have been feeling after hearing that he would spend the next 15 years laboring in what he probably imagined to be a gulag. After two months of being constantly reminded that the American government couldn't help him, he probably felt that his family, his beautiful girlfriend (who called him her “soul mate”), and his Wall Street future were all lost. What else could he look forward to but physical and mental suffering?... The psychic trauma of all this [psychological torture] has sent previous detainees into crushing depressions, and even driven some to attempt suicide… At least two Americans imprisoned in North Korea have attempted suicide. After failing to cut his wrists, Aijalon Gomes chewed open a thermometer and drank its mercury, later explaining that he had given up on America's ability to free him. Despite eventually having his release won by Jimmy Carter, Gomes was unable to escape his post-traumatic stress disorder, and seven years later burned himself to death. An American official said that Evan Hunziker tried to kill himself while being held, and less than a month after returning home, he shattered his own skull with a bullet in a run-down hotel. Robert Park reportedly tried to take his own life on returning.>>
Again, I think it all depends on whether this timeline is right. But if brutal psychological torture ended in suicide, North Korea is no less responsible, since they still tortured him to death.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I thought the coroner was basing on the timeline on the length of time he seemed to have been injured. You can't believe what NK says, obviously.
I partly blame the adults who arranged the trip. A bus full of young people. Young men in the age group are known not to follow rules well and be reckless. The adults who arranged and were hosts of the bus of young people should have stressed to the nth degree what could happen if they didn't follow rules, even the smallest, and if they disrespected the country in any way. Not that they had in business going to that country, in the first place. His parents gave approval, which was a big mistake. What were they thinking?
Then there's his stupid act of stealing a government poster. Did he not understand where he was? What a brutal dictatorship is?
Plenty of blame to go around. Of course, the main responsibility falls on NK & the dictator.
The whole thing is so sad. I feel sorry for the poor young man and his parents. This should never have happened.
deurbano
(2,986 posts)true of all students with those natural gifts and advantages. And I guess he was also (too) curious. It's such a waste--another tragic death caused by this brutal dictator.
Yeah, the validity of the timeline is the question. It seemed to be coming from the NK hospital doctors to those evacuating Otto... saying he arrived at the hospital the day after the trial/sentencing (which I gather was new and surprising information to those rescuing him), and apparently they had medical records that seemed to confirm that. I haven't heard that NK (including the doctors) ever claimed he committed suicide. (I decided it should be "committed," rather than "attempted"---if it did happen-- since he eventually died.) Instead, as you know, the North Koreans (don't know about these particular doctors) were claiming he took a sleeping pill while suffering from botulism... and then slipped into a coma. US doctors challenged this explanation, but someone (can't remember where I read this) speculated (it's all speculation, of course) that maybe sleeping pills were part of the real story... that if they were giving him sleeping pills to sleep at night, he might have been saving/hiding them--in case he couldn't take any more? (And then the North Koreans presumably invented the other story to make it seem more like an accident, so they are less implicated.) Or maybe he accidentally overdosed? He could have just been trying to get more sleep after the horrible trial (and 15-year sentence) and overdid it.
An autopsy might have answered some of these questions, but the parents declined. I really think the coroner should have insisted, though. in Ohio, the coroner is supposed to "investigate deaths of persons caused by criminal violence, accident, or suicide, dying suddenly, when unattended by a physician for a reasonable period of time, in detention, when under 2 years of age, or in any suspicious or unusual manner." This situation would certainly seem to fit. I feel the parents had a narrative, and that included the fact that maybe he could have been saved if the previous administration had acted more quickly/effectively/or something. And it seems Otto didn't get to communicate with anyone from the outside world, so maybe he didn't realize that all detained Americans have eventually been released well before 15 years, and usually within a few months to two years of being detained. (I mean, it would still be a horrific situation, but maybe one with a bit more hope.)
In the end, NK is responsible for this death, one way or the other, but the current WH crasher will exploit this tragedy to suit his political agenda, then ignore it when convenient. (While singing praises to the one responsible!)
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)I wonder why the parents declined. This is a matter of great importance, if it was even remotely possible to discover that the NK's abused him in some way (damaged inner organs or whatever).
We'll never know. So sad. There are no words.
Parents, don't let your kids go to North Korea! Or Afghanistan! Or Pakistan! Or pretty much any Middle East country. There are countries that are just too darn dangerous, and Americans have no rights to speak of there.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)The one who believes in nothing, says and does things for his own benefit, lies at the drop of a hat.
riversedge
(80,810 posts)Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)riversedge
(80,810 posts)DorothyG
(95 posts)I'm glad they spoke up. Is there any good reason for Trump to state his opinion on this publicly?