BREAKING: British lawmakers seize control of Brexit process from government

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: CNN

Parliament has voted to allow lawmakers to hold a series of indicative votes on various alternative Brexit options.

MPs have defied the government and voted in favor of an amendment that gives them control of parliament's agenda this Wednesday. The passage of the Letwin amendment allows lawmakers to hold a series of indicative votes on various alternative Brexit options.

Lawmakers could vote on as many as seven different options -- which might include a second referendum, crashing out with no deal and a Norway-style deal with the EU -- which would give the UK full access to the single market and the European Free Trade area. The votes are non-binding.


Read more: https://edition.cnn.com/uk/live-news/brexit-latest-gbr-intl/index.html

[hlthe2b]

1. "which might include a second referendum"-- heavens, if there is any sanity left, I'd hope so...

I know I'm not British, but damn, as bad as our own politics are, I really thought the Brits would NOT "cut off their nose to spite their face".

It is dismal to see US, UK, and soon Germany (with the near future departure of Merkel) be so damned vulnerable to RW lunacy. Not to mention the problems in France...

[BumRushDaShow]

2. I was looking at the Guardian's coverage

and apparently 2 "2nd referendum" amendments were not taken up for a vote.

The following amendments were not selected:

B. The pro-Brexit amendment

Tabled by a cross-party group of Brexiters, and signed by more than 80 MPs – the great majority Conservative – this notes that the Tories and Labour both stood in the 2017 election on manifestos promising to deliver Brexit, and says parliament “reaffirms its commitment to honour the result of the referendum that the UK should leave the European Union”.

C. The no-deal blocker

Tabled by MPs including Labour’s Yvette Cooper as well as Letwin (again), this notes the new date of 12 April at which the UK could potentially crash out of the EU if no plan is passed, and “instructs” the government to set out by the end of Thursday how it would prevent this.

E. Independent Group calls for second referendum

The first amendment tabled by the former Tory/Labour breakaway MPs, and also signed by Lib Dem MPs, it calls for a second referendum to choose between a final deal and staying in the EU.

G. Lib Dems call for second referendum

A parallel version of amendment E, this is also signed by MPs from the Independent Group. It seeks a two-year extension to Brexit to hold a new referendum.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/brexit-amendments-another-week-another-set-votes-mps

[ancianita]

5. Am I to understand from this, that they will enact is a 2nd referendum to prevent a no-deal Brexit?

Seems as if they don't have much of a time window left to act.

[BumRushDaShow]

7. From what I gather regarding these amendments

the 2 that were originally associated with 2nd referendums were not selected for a vote. But at this point, since Parliament has basically voted to take over the process themselves, then this supposedly means that they would try to hash out some other options beyond May's plan and possibly beyond a no-deal Brexit (although I'm not sure where a 2nd referendum as yet another option would fall - i.e., the conservatives and their leave supporters have been really pushing against that).

[dewsgirl]

3. I read the other day about plans to evacuate the Queen and the royal family if things go wrong.

[ancianita]

14. Are you kidding? Did you read why that would be necessary? I can't even imagine it.

[bronxiteforever]

15. See below

Riots After a No-Deal Brexit? Save (and Evacuate) the Queen
NYT
By Iliana Magra
Feb. 3, 2019

LONDON — Should Britain stumble out of the European Union without a deal and riots erupt in the streets, officials have a plan:

Evacuate Queen Elizabeth II from London, local news outlets reported on Sunday.

Reports of a scenario to save the queen and senior members of her family came to light as the deadline for Britain’s withdrawal from the European Union loomed. With fewer than 55 days until the formal divorce, now set for March 29, the country has been flooded with news of emergency preparations in the event no deal is reached.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/world/europe/uk-brexit-queen-evacuation.html

Insane stuff during an insane process.

[ancianita]

16. Thank you. I have an NYT account but often miss articles.

[bronxiteforever]

17. I can't keep up with all this insanity

I just happened to have read that story and remembered it. The stuff done by Cheeto on the other hand, I can’t keep track. Too much evil, it is exhausting!

[ancianita]

20. Same here, and why our evil over here has resulted in my being uninformed about thinking over there.

[ancianita]

21. Seems like the queen would be the last person Brits would direct their ire toward. She IS England.

[marylandblue]

30. Rioters don't think rationally, they just want to attack.

[ancianita]

34. Not when it comes to the queen. They know the queen, AS England, is always on the people's side.

[marylandblue]

36. Maybe, but if you were charge of the Queen's security,

would you really not plan for the worst case scenario?

[ancianita]

39. Sure; but those in charge of that "scenario" make no comment of that possibility; neither would I.

Which raises the question: Where would the queen exile herself and her family to? It's hard to imagine.

[marylandblue]

42. The article quotes an unnamed cabinet official, so take it for what it's worth.

It says the plan is to go to a cruise ship on a Scottish loch. That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but we do live in an insane time.

[dewsgirl]

19. Thank you,

[bronxiteforever]

41. You are welcome

[ancianita]

4. Their action has become their only option. I wish them success, even as the votes are non-binding.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. My Tory MP unexpectedly grew a conscience, brain and spine, and voted against the government

which meant he (Steve Brine) had to resign from his junior government position:

An amendment tabled by former Tory minister Oliver Letwin passed, by 329 votes to 302 on Monday night, defeating the government, as MPs expressed their exasperation at its failure to set out a fresh approach.

Government sources confirmed that three ministers resigned from government in order to back the Letwin amendment: the foreign affairs minister, Alistair Burt, the health minister, Steve Brine, and the business minister, Richard Harrington. In all, a total of 30 Tory MPs rebelled to vote for the amendment.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/mar/25/mps-seize-control-of-brexit-process-by-backing-indicative-votes-amendment

(The constituency is pro-Remain, so this should not cause him any reselection problems(

[TomVilmer]

8. This is not an easy choice...

EU is evolving fast to a more centralized and militarized model - Fortress Europe. Our nice open borders was the best argument to stay inside, but this was f*cked up after the so called Refugee Crisis, where an relatively small intake made every politician go into total panic.

The open borders had relaxed the internal and very violent fighting between central governments and border populations at our many misplaced border lines. This is the biggest problem awaiting Brexit, that the bloody Irish conflict will arise again.

[Denzil_DC]

9. "EU is evolving fast to a more centralized and militarized model"

Any sources to back that up?

[ancianita]

13. I'm curious about that, too. Do you have links to show this?

[Denzil_DC]

24. I don't know whether you intended to reply to me or TomVilmer, anciata

If you were aiming for Tom, he won't get a "My Posts" alert on your reply.

I'm genuinely curious what Tom's basing these claims on, then we can maybe discuss them. Or maybe we'll both have better things to do with our time!

"Greater centralization" puzzles me. It goes 100% against the EU doctrine of subsidiarity.

The EU is making moves towards greater military coordination between member countries, it's true. Whether that can be classed as "Fortress Europe" in a way that lives up to the sensational buzzword depends on whose interpretation you listen to. But then I live in Fortress UK, the second- or third-largest arms dealer in the world and keen poodle of US militarism, so maybe my tolerance for these things is different.

[ancianita]

26. OOPS. Sorry. I mis-tagged you. Tom Vilner. I'll fix it.

[ancianita]

32. I understand the EU's militarization as a direct answer to Trump and Russia, not centralization.

To your points:

I've not read about any EU government's legal responses to crime reports between immigrants and various countries' citizens; granted, that doesn't mean that their politics isn't swinging right because of said crimes. France's has, obviously (they've had terrorist attacks), but I haven't read that tensions have become right trending voices in the other EU members.

Brexit seems to be about bad government, like Jonathan Pie says, even as Brits must be watching the EU's immigration struggles with dismay.

[Denzil_DC]

40. I think any militarization needs keeping an eye on, obviously.

But this has been blown up by Brexiters to "ZOMG! WWIII! They're going to DRAFT our CHILDREN!!!1! "

Every country has its own struggles with immigration, and their situations differ. If we're talking about the UK, the problems are exaggerated, were capable of being countered by the UK government even while it was an EU member using existing laws if they'd chosen to apply them, and were a cheap, populist rallying cry for Farage and his cronies.

We need immigrants. My part of the UK, Scotland, desperately needs them. We're about to find out just how much.

I've continued the discussion with Tom below. I don't know whether it's of any interest.

[TomVilmer]

28. Sources...

I did not expect that to be news for anybody. Here are a bunch of casually selected stories about EU militarization:

French President Emmanuel Macron is calling for the formation of a “real European army” to protect the continent "with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America". Agence France-Presse reports that while on a tour of World War I memorials Tuesday, Macron said: "We will not protect the Europeans unless we decide to have a true European army". ...
http://time.com/5446975/emmanuel-macron-european-army-russia-us/

The mood in the European Union on military affairs is undergoing a seismic shift. Policymakers across the Continent finally agree that hard power - long viewed as antithetical to the EU's raison d'être - is now essential to the bloc's survival. The question is how, or sometimes if, the EU's militaries should work together. ...
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-founded-as-project-of-peace-debates-a-militarized-future-nato-european-defense-fund-russia/

EU to support development of military equipment. The EU will be able to spend money on defence for the first time ever. MEPs approved plans to support the joint development of military equipment and technologies. ...
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/security/20180122STO92206/defence-eu-to-support-development-of-military-equipment

And centralization:

It’s time to end the veto in EU foreign policy. The Socialists and Democrats called on the member states to introduce qualified-majority voting in certain areas of EU foreign policy to speed up decision-making and eliminate situations in which one country blocks consensus - and called on Europe to fill the vacuum left by the United States. ...
http://pr.euractiv.com/pr/sds-it-s-time-end-veto-eu-foreign-policy-178358

Berlin open to majority voting on EU taxes: report. The German finance minister’s reversal marks a sea-change in Germany’s position toward EU taxation. He told that Commission proposals to introduce qualified majority voting on questions surrounding taxation were “important and useful. ...
https://www.politico.eu/article/berlin-open-to-majority-voting-on-eu-taxes-report-german-finance-minister-olaf-scholz/

[ancianita]

35. Thanks for such an informative list. It does look as if it's caused by Trump/Putin threat.

[Denzil_DC]

37. None of which seems to live up to the hype of "Fortress Europe".

On "militarization", are you arguing that the EU should continue with fragmented national defences, channeled through NATO (and hence US hegemony) or occasionally the UN? Or not have any armed forces at all?

The only EU document you cite talks about economies of scale and avoiding duplication: 'compared to the US the EU-28 spend 40% on defence but only manage to generate 15% of the capabilities that the US gets out of the process, which points to a very serious efficiency problem”'.

When you're getting less bang per buck than the US MIC, you do have a problem!

If you're one of those who foresees an aggressive interventionist European force, then maybe you've not watched the EU's decision-making in practice.

That percentage of expenditure'll change when the UK Brexits, and meanwhile it's only too happy to sell arms to warmongers worldwide and meddle in armed conflicts that have a habit of making situations far worse.

As for "centralization", you cite two articles with proposals for changing EU voting rules. That doesn't sound like "centralization", it sounds like a proposed evolution of democracy. If your argument is that qualified majority voting is inferior to the existence of vetoes, that's a different argument to centralization.

As so often in discussions about the EU versus UK, I'm driven to link to the summary by "Steve Analyst" of the many UK objections to the EU that end up being UK objections to things the UK itself championed within the EU - things like greater defence collaboration and extending qualified majority voting!

American tells bizarre story of how Britain went from leading the EU to leaving it in epic Twitter plea to rethink Brexit
https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017/07/american-tells-bizarre-story-of-how-britain-went-from-leading-the-eu-to-leaving-it-in-one-epic-twitter-plea-to-rethink-brexit/

[TomVilmer]

44. Thanks for many thoughts...

You see qualified majority voting as an evolution of democracy in the EU. Many in Denmark see this as our small country being beating into place against our own will by the bigger ones. This has been the fear of Denmark since the very beginning of the EU, and this fear is also a big part of Brexit.

I live in Denmark, where demonstrations and referendums has forced our governments to maintain a pressure against a handful of EU positions: We have an agreement with the EU opposing the full integration into the EU military, juridical and foreign politics plus common citizenship.

My main input was a focus on where the EU has helped to make Western Europe more peaceful, and where it has done the opposite. Both directions is contained in the politics, which is why I am not shouting out against EU, but are trying to change it to do better.

EU is bragging that it stopped the constant wars of Europe, but that correlation might be false. The reason was more a generally change away from fascism and dictators, which was dominating also Western Europe in my youth i the 1970s: Greece, Portugal, Spain and others. And parts of the Eastern bloc never stopped this.

These trends are now reversing. Strict right wing governments are now blooming up again also inside the EU, and the assumed EU identity on freedom, human rights and open democracy are showing as more of an illusion.

The internal open borders was changed back into control posts, even to my country's close neighbor Sweden. The borders outside the EU is now more and more militarized. EU paid Gaddafi of Libya to fight the refugees for us, and is continuing tihis practice with other weird contries.

And this is what is called Fortress Europe.

[muriel_volestrangler]

45. In those terms of 'Fortress Europe' - putting up barriers against refugees

or internal movement, the Brexit movement have had the rejection of refugees as one of their top priorities. Farage infamously used a poster of refugees:

A campaign low arrived in the form of a poster showing thousands of refugees crossing the Croatia-Slovenia border last year. The words "BREAKING POINT" were emblazoned across the picture, above a line that read: "We must break free of the EU and take back control of our borders."

It didn’t matter that many of those pictured were likely refugees fleeing war and violence in the Middle East. Nigel Farage, the leader of the far-right UK Independence Party (UKIP), which produced the poster, sought to make the link in voters’ minds between the refugee crisis in mainland Europe and immigration.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2016-06-24/how-brexit-campaign-used-refugees-scare-voters

[Denzil_DC]

46. And thanks to you for a considered response from a different perspective.

The problem for me, as someone in the UK (and someone in Scotland who views the status of smaller countries in the EU with particular interest), is that I've seen this "Fortress Europe" rhetoric weaponized by the Leave forces into soundbytes of warped and exaggerated positions that sit alongside the many strands of long-term demonization of the EU, from bendy bananas to enforced conscription to claims that we don't have influence over EU policy when we've actually been very successful in shaping what the EU's become.

I don't think many on the Remain side in the UK would claim that the EU doesn't need reforming. I've spoken to enough people from other EU countries to know that there are allies for such moves. The fact that Denmark has managed to secure opt-outs shows some of the limits of EU power over member states. The UK has been highly favoured in terms of securing its own opt-outs.

The problem for UK Leavers is that if their rhetoric about the overweening EU superstate is true, then they want to put us in a position where we would have very little input and influence - certainly far less than we've wielded over the time of our membership - over what happens and what develops.

Put crudely, we'll be outside the tent pissing in, which would suit those who've chosen to blame the EU for our domestic politics' shortcomings increasingly over decades, but is likely to be little more than an annoyance from a country that has grown increasingly annoying as a member over the years and made a public spectacle of ostentatiously pissing in its own tent within the EU.

The EU will still be there on our doorstep - with the Leavers' projected warts and all - and all we'll be able to do is wring our hands on the sidelines and pursue our own path to no doubt becoming even more of a US satellite, militarily and economically and socially. I don't find that prospect very appealing, and not just because Trump's the current president.

As for immigration, especially of refugees, that's a problem that's exaggerated in the UK for political ends, but only too real for EU countries that don't have the luxury of a natural moat. The solutions won't be easy nor necessarily time-bounded, not least while we participate in destabilizing nations and regions elsewhere.

[TomVilmer]

47. Getting closer...

It is a both interesting and scary change you and we are living through. And it might break UK into pieces even in a short time frame.

I am still a bright eyed optimist, who believes that there will be good solutions. The Eastern Block showed us that it is possible to collapse in a kind of decent way without violence, though many of those countries is now democracies of very strange colors.

And the crisis with refugees... My very small country had 250.000 refugees after WW2, and did manage them coming and most of them going home again. There are solutions better than militarized borders.

BTW I was arrested in Scotland, where we climbed the enforced building for the Ministry of Defense, and did other sneaky actions against the British nuclear subs up there. A friend of mine managed to swim deep into their tunnels, and paint peace signs on one of them. She was later set free of charges, since nuclear weapons are illegal. My own contact with Scottish police and the judges also went quite easy - they must have liked what we did .

And I also are for staying inside the EU, and that is a threat - we should not leave but stay and fight for changes. The same for NATO, which should be changed to live up to it's own promises: To settle any international dispute in which they may be involved by peaceful means, and to refrain from the threat or use of force in any manner!

[Denzil_DC]

48. Ha ha! What a small world ...

I live near the Faslane/Coulport submarine bases, and was heavily involved in the peace movement here in my 20s. I'm much less active now, but I suspect we know some of the same people (or may even have met, perhaps briefly!), as my partner and I offered practical support for some of the actions Trident Ploughshares etc. were involved in.

And yes, I don't think we're as far apart in ideas as we are in geography.

[TomVilmer]

49. I was there around mid 80s...

... though not for a long time. But i loved to walk in the mist on the mountains.

[ancianita]

27. I wonder about your first sentence, too. Are there links to this model you describe?

[BigmanPigman]

10. I need Jonathan Pie to explain this to my

obviously pea sized brain since I can never figure out what they are talking about with Brexit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. He did a video just a few days ago

so he doesn't have this latest twist, but everything leading up to it:

[BigmanPigman]

12. I know, I posted it.

I was finally able to grasp some of the idea for the first time. I know he was going off but he was still able to bring it down to my simplictic level of comprehension.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10175362688

[dewsgirl]

22. Who is he?

He seems like the male version of Rachel Maddow if she snapped.
Thank you so much for posting this, I learned a lot.

[dewsgirl]

23. And Putin must be so happy with himself.

[muriel_volestrangler]

29. He is a comedian (Tom Walker), playing a journalist who snaps when off air

Here's an hour Q&A with the real guy from a couple of years ago:

[ancianita]

25. His articulate gangsta anger doesn't hurt his clarity, either. Even if it's comedy, it's helpful.

Thank you.

Some excerpts...

"[The MP's] broke its contract."

"Massive public policy failures."

"You sprinkle in a tiny bit of 'it's immigrants' fault' and 'we pay the EU too much,' it's gonna resonate with the have-nots and the struggling. That's how populism works -- it masks political failure by blaming others..."

"They [voters] wanted to send a message." "Did not want the status quo, and that's how you get Brexit."

Brexit has exposed our underlying problems of the constitution, our ... democratic institutions -- they are not fit for purpose."

" This is Pax Britannica coming home to roost." "The UK has ceased to function."

He's right. It IS sad. And, to me, scary. I always thought of Brits as can-do and stalwart.

[dewsgirl]

31. I know. Scary indeed.

[Irishxs]

33. Brits are in a bad way....just like us.

[ancianita]

38. Notice London's rapid international rise and fall is in this video, 'til they fall off the graph.

It's a fascinating perspective of Beijing's durability and other cities' rise and fall through the centuries, and our own quick entry, then drop.

[Irishxs]

43. Wow! Great graphic!

[ck4829]

50. Kick

[BumRushDaShow]

51. Today is the day they start deciding what to do next! nt