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Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:28 PM

Transgender people must use birth-gender bathroom, says Chattanooga lawmakers’ bill

from the Chattanooga Times Free Press

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/jan/12/transgender-people-must-use-birth-gender-bathroom-/?breakingnews


NASHVILLE — A Chattanooga lawmaker says he makes no apologies for his bill that prohibits transgender people from using use public bathrooms and dressing rooms that don’t match the gender listed on their birth certificates.

Rep. Richard Floyd, R-Chattanooga, said today he introduced the bill after reading a news article about a Texas woman who said she was fired from Macy’s after blocking a male teen dressed as a woman from using a dressing room.

“It could happen here,” Floyd said. “I believe if I was standing at a dressing room and my wife or one of my daughters was in the dressing room and a man tried to go in there — I don’t care if he thinks he’s a woman and tries on clothes with them in there — I’d just try to stomp a mudhole in him and then stomp him dry.”

Floyd’s bill, sponsored by Sen. Bo Watson, R-Hixson, in the Senate, makes such acts a Class C misdemeanor punishable by a $50 fine.

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my comment: there is a poll on that page if you want to pass on a little DU love...

118 replies, 32429 views

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Reply Transgender people must use birth-gender bathroom, says Chattanooga lawmakers’ bill (Original post)
d_r Jan 2012 OP
niyad Jan 2012 #1
cognoscere Jan 2012 #76
Old and In the Way Jan 2012 #2
cutlassmama Jan 2012 #23
wordpix Jan 2012 #32
Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #37
Old and In the Way Jan 2012 #39
nxylas Jan 2012 #58
MADem Jan 2012 #79
Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #106
Withywindle Jan 2012 #53
Politicalboi Jan 2012 #56
DocMac Jan 2012 #61
MADem Jan 2012 #80
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #93
Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #107
TheCruces Jan 2012 #117
fascisthunter Jan 2012 #44
yellowcanine Jan 2012 #49
HockeyMom Jan 2012 #3
wandy Jan 2012 #13
enlightenment Jan 2012 #16
d_r Jan 2012 #22
enlightenment Jan 2012 #71
jmowreader Jan 2012 #46
enlightenment Jan 2012 #70
joeglow3 Jan 2012 #114
Hugabear Jan 2012 #67
enlightenment Jan 2012 #68
MADem Jan 2012 #99
eppur_se_muova Jan 2012 #4
DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2012 #5
DaveJ Jan 2012 #20
Post removed Jan 2012 #62
snooper2 Jan 2012 #66
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #69
surrealAmerican Jan 2012 #6
Evasporque Jan 2012 #7
Evasporque Jan 2012 #8
dixiegrrrrl Jan 2012 #35
Boojatta Jan 2012 #9
Tesha Jan 2012 #10
d_r Jan 2012 #12
BadgerKid Jan 2012 #34
Boojatta Jan 2012 #11
Zorra Jan 2012 #25
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #28
izquierdista Jan 2012 #36
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #40
Boojatta Jan 2012 #77
LeftyMom Jan 2012 #108
TheCruces Jan 2012 #118
Boojatta Jan 2012 #78
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #94
MADem Jan 2012 #81
hedgehog Jan 2012 #85
MADem Jan 2012 #89
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #96
catrose Jan 2012 #30
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #42
radhika Jan 2012 #14
harun Jan 2012 #64
appleannie1 Jan 2012 #15
christx30 Jan 2012 #17
markpkessinger Jan 2012 #18
Ilsa Jan 2012 #19
Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #38
LeftyMom Jan 2012 #109
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #110
Honeycombe8 Jan 2012 #111
LeftyMom Jan 2012 #112
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #113
Pab Sungenis Jan 2012 #115
MADem Jan 2012 #82
aikoaiko Jan 2012 #21
Pab Sungenis Jan 2012 #116
yardwork Jan 2012 #24
Fearless Jan 2012 #26
Initech Jan 2012 #31
Fearless Jan 2012 #43
MADem Jan 2012 #90
Fearless Jan 2012 #98
usrname Jan 2012 #27
boppers Jan 2012 #29
wordpix Jan 2012 #33
malthaussen Jan 2012 #41
barbtries Jan 2012 #45
NYC_SKP Jan 2012 #47
pinto Jan 2012 #50
wordpix Jan 2012 #52
noamnety Jan 2012 #59
pinto Jan 2012 #63
NYC_SKP Jan 2012 #88
hedgehog Jan 2012 #87
Fire Walk With Me Jan 2012 #48
pepperbear Jan 2012 #51
AZ Progressive Jan 2012 #54
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #97
MADem Jan 2012 #55
Politicalboi Jan 2012 #57
sulphurdunn Jan 2012 #60
Hugabear Jan 2012 #65
Zenlitened Jan 2012 #72
bitchkitty Jan 2012 #73
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #75
Remmah2 Jan 2012 #74
Sheepshank Jan 2012 #83
craigmatic Jan 2012 #84
Skittles Jan 2012 #86
Smilo Jan 2012 #91
Smilo Jan 2012 #92
alp227 Jan 2012 #95
wordpix Jan 2012 #102
Ash_F Jan 2012 #100
Thaddeus Kosciuszko Jan 2012 #101
southerncrone Jan 2012 #103
southerncrone Jan 2012 #104
sarcasmo Jan 2012 #105

Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:33 PM

1. the answer to this, of course, is unisex bathromms (remember the screaming when they were blocking

the ERA?)

this cretin obviously has some serious issues--anger being, apparently, the least of them.

one has to wonder if we now have to carry our birth certificates to show at the bathroom doors? and to whom, then? are all public restrooms now going to have attendants checking each and every person who comes in? (well, I guess that would help the unemployment figures)

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Response to niyad (Reply #1)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 03:32 PM

76. How about skimming that turd from Tennessee out of the gene pool? NT

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:37 PM

2. So what happens when the born female, now guy, uses the dressing room?

He's not going to be happy with that either, I presume. Seems to me, the gender you choose to present yourself is probably the most reasonable way to make the decision on which dressing room to use.

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:57 PM

23. +99

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:11 PM

32. +1

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:49 PM

37. Does transgender mean before genitals are surgically changed to other gender?

Or does it mean only after the change? Or during?

As a woman, the thing that would concern me is that there should not be anyone who could rape a woman going inside a bathroom, where a woman would be partially unclothed and vulnerable. That means no penis. I wouldn't think that normally a man who wants to rape a woman would dress as a woman to gain access to a female-only restroom, but it's a possibility in this day and age when a woman is raped in the country every few minutes or every hour, every day.

Problem is, we don't want genitalia police checking us when we go into the restroom.

Or maybe we should carry a copy of our airport genitalia x-ray from Homeland Security with us?

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #37)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:00 PM

39. This sounds like your typical republican "small government" approach to a non-existant problem.

Seriously, how does one go about determining if the person using the facility is in violation of the law? It could only mean hiring massive amount of government nannies to check one's equipment to decide which bathroom you can use - because equal application of the law would mean every public bathroom would require a government genital enforcer.

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 07:20 AM

58. Republicans are only interested in small government when it comes to regulating corporations

They're fine with making people present their birth certificate in order to take a leak. Just don't tell the company whose premises the bathroom is on that it has to keep them clean, because that's socialism.

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #39)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 04:03 PM

79. Can you see the want ads? "F/T Genitalia Enforcement - Macy's"

Wonder if they'd offer health insurance and a dental plan for that kind of work?

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #39)

Wed Jan 18, 2012, 11:54 PM

106. That was my point. No way to enforce that.

But it is a valid point to consider whether people with penises have access to partially clothed women in a vulnerable position. Rape is a serious concern. I've read that a woman is raped in the country something like every few minutes. In some restrooms, I've been the only one in there, and it was in an isolated area. Even in a mall, it is way off the beaten path.

But there's no way to police it, really, which was my point. I try to avoid bathrooms that are empty and isolated, unless I have no choice. I probably should carry mace or something. Like I said, a man who's going to rape a woman probably won't go to the trouble of dressing up like a woman and hiding in a bathroom.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:48 AM

53. You don't need a penis to commit rape.

There are female rapists, and they can have either female or male victims. They're nowhere near as common as male ones, but they do exist.

Unfortunately, I have personal experience of this.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #37)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 07:10 AM

56. Bathrooms aren't safe havens

 

Any man can still go into a women's bathroom and rape someone. I doubt there are many women being raped by a guy in drag. I read some of the replies at the story, and someone said this law wouldn't allow a 6 month old baby boy to go into a women's bathroom for a diaper change. These people are just plain nuts. But they're Repukes, so what else can we expect.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #56)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 09:05 AM

61. Also, if a man is living as a woman,

would they not be interested in relationships with men?

So, why would they go into a woman's dressing room or bathroom with bad intentions?

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Response to DocMac (Reply #61)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 04:09 PM

80. I am no expert, not by a long shot, but it's more complicated than that, from what I have learned.

It's not about who the person might be attracted to, it's about internal brain wiring, basically. The person feels like they have been issued the wrong body. It's like going through the line at boot camp and getting the too-small shirt and shoes, and the too-large trousers and overcoat. The kit just doesn't fit, it never will, and there's no amount of "talking about it" that will make it work. The person needs an exterior that matches the interior, in essence, in order to not feel out of place/out of sorts/out of bounds.

Anyone with a better grasp of this than I have, feel free to jump in and correct any misstatements I may have made.

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Response to MADem (Reply #80)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:24 PM

93. I think you've summed it up pretty nicely.

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Response to Politicalboi (Reply #56)

Wed Jan 18, 2012, 11:59 PM

107. I was in a crowded public bathroom once, where I asked a young man something.

It was a young teen boy. Looked to be about 12 or 13. I waiting for a stall (women forever have to wait in line in bathrooms!). I noticed this guy, who looked MUCH too old to be a woman's bathroom. So I asked him something like, "Aren't you a little old to be in a woman's bathroom?" He mumbled something like, "My Mom is here...she makes me" or something like that.

Shortly afterward a short hispanic woman came out of a stall, and the boy followed her as she washed her hands and left.

That made me uncomfortable. I can understand taking a small boy to the bathroom with you, but this kid was too old, and was a big kid, to boot. He was almost as tall as I was, and I'm 5'5. Other women were staring at him, too. He was standing there while women were peeing, pulling up clothing, etc (not seeing him there). And the poor boy looked very embarrassed.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #37)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 03:45 AM

117. I, for one, always worry about transgendered women raping me in the ladies room

Really? This is a concern for you. Do you think this actually happens often enough to worry about it?

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:29 PM

44. exactly... what's the big deal?

 

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Response to Old and In the Way (Reply #2)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:57 PM

49. In that case he/she has to go outside and it is his/her fault! So there! Nanny nanny boo boo.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:39 PM

3. Women's public toilets dont have PUBLIC URINALS

If a trangender wants to use a female toilet, all they have to do is CLOSE THE DOOR and nobody will have to see anything. End of story.

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:08 PM

13. +1 Pouints for common sense!

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Response to HockeyMom (Reply #3)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:37 PM

16. Chances are that if a

male to female transgender individual 'wants to use a female toilet', they're not looking for a urinal, anyway; women don't use urinals. Female to male transgender individuals, from what I understand, have a bit more difficulty 'passing' in a male public toilet, since many do not have the ability (via surgery, prosthesis, or training) to use a urinal and have to use the 'sit down' toilets instead.

The jackass who is pushing this law has his head up his arse, anyway, since many transgender individuals take the necessary steps to change their gender on their birth certificates as well as their standard identification. Some states make it fairly easy and some make it damned near impossible - but the effort is often made.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:53 PM

22. it is against the law in Tenn.

to change your sex on the birth certificate.

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Response to d_r (Reply #22)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:16 PM

71. Nasty, though I'm not surprised.

I know Illinois makes it very difficult, as well. Some states allow it, however.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #16)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:46 PM

46. I don't understand part of your first paragraph

Neither males nor females can defecate standing up. If someone needs to do that in a public restroom, he or she enters a stall, closes the door and sits down to do his or her business.

Public toilets don't have seismic sensors on them, and no one is going to stand outside the toilet thinking, "I don't hear any shit falling into the water, so therefore the person using that stall must have no penis."

But yeah, ya gotta wonder...is the GOP going to now demand that every public restroom have a toilet attendant to inspect your junk before allowing you access, and are they going to pay for these attendants from public funds? (And if that happened, could we then lay to rest the old GOP canard that government doesn't create jobs?)

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #46)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:14 PM

70. My point was addressing the

concept of urinals. I'm well aware that both males and females sit (or squat or whatever) to defecate.

The issue is fairly simple - as the poster pointed out - for MtF transgender individuals, because women's toilets do not have urinals (i.e., they don't have to worry about the public nature of those appliances). I was pointing out that the issue is a little more complicated for FtMs.

I agree with you that the whole thing is ridiculous, and I was glad to see that the bill was shot down quickly (by another Republican, no less).

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Response to jmowreader (Reply #46)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:30 PM

114. True, but no man shits in a public toilet unless it is a near death emergency

 

As much as we love sitting in a pool of 20 other guy's piss all over the seat, a shit in a public bathroom is done once, maybe twice, in a lifetime.

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Response to enlightenment (Reply #16)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:47 PM

67. I'm a male, and I sometimes use the 'sit down' toilets to urinate

What's the big difference? Why do some people really get worked up over this?

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:09 PM

68. I'm not worked up about it.

The comment I was responding to suggested that the 'issue' of MtF's using a women's public toilet was moot because those toilets do not have urinals. That is true - but it doesn't always apply to FtM's, and 'transgender' works both ways.

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #67)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 10:32 PM

99. Mandatory to have a seat on the train, doncha know!

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:46 PM

4. Jeez, here I got my dick cut off just so I could sneak into women's restrooms ...

It seemed like the perfect plan.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:48 PM

5. Stomp a mudhole?

 

It looks like we've got another urbane, suave lawmaker on our hands. This makes me want to find a way to work 'hornswaggle' into a conversation.

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Response to DisgustipatedinCA (Reply #5)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:49 PM

20. I personally do not think violent language is appropriate, even in govt

But what do I know, as I've observed people are like monkeys throwing poo at one another. I wish I could be at peace with that fact, but I continue having this existential crisis of feeling awkward and embarrassed that I'm the same type of animal as these folks.

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Response to DaveJ (Reply #20)


Response to Post removed (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:46 PM

66. You do know that all religions are made up fantasies by old crackpots who thought the World is flat

 

Right?

Here's a question for you...

Is your "god" made up of matter?

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Response to Post removed (Reply #62)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:12 PM

69. Do you have a bill number for that "Gotta Be Gay" legislation you mentioned?

Is the bill in the House, or the Senate?

I'd like to read the details, because it sounds a bit... um... difficult to enforce.

To say the least.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:50 PM

6. What a stupid thing to legislate.

... and why would the representative think that someone who "thinks he's a woman" would be some sort of danger to his "wife and daughters" in a dressing room? Surely a biological woman who "thinks she's a man" would be a more potentially disruptive presence in this instance.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:51 PM

7. So his motivation is bigotry and hate....

One challenge to that law and it would be declared unconstitutional.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:55 PM

8. Senate withdrew the bill....end of story....nt

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Response to Evasporque (Reply #8)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:37 PM

35. Good! TY for that info.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 07:59 PM

9. What about gender at conception?

 

Unless I am mistaken, the hormonal environment in the womb can contribute to the development of an ambiguously gendered baby. An official gender label is assigned at birth, possibly in conjunction with some surgical intervention to make the gonads unambiguously what is demanded by the official gender label. However, at puberty, the gender identity genetically determined at conception may reassert itself.

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Response to d_r (Original post)


Response to Tesha (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:08 PM

12. Thanks for posting this

I just saw it and I was coming here to post it. That's great news. I guess Watson figured out really quick that most people thought this was completely inane.

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Response to Tesha (Reply #10)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:30 PM

34. I can see it now: birth certificate checkpoints outside the loo. n/t


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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:06 PM

11. "a male teen dressed as a woman"

 

Since when is a change of clothes enough to make somebody transgendered? That's a question about the title of this thread. I thought that the term for somebody who cross-dresses is "transvestite", not "transgender." Also, what about unisex clothing: does it eliminate gender altogether?

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Response to Boojatta (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:08 PM

25. The problem with the word transgender is that it is an ambiguous,

general term:

Definition of TRANSGENDER
: of, relating to, or being a person (as a transsexual or transvestite) who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth
----
trans·gen·der
  [trans-jen-der, tranz‐]
noun
1.
a person appearing or attempting to be a member of the opposite sex, as a transsexual or habitual cross-dresser.
---
Transgender (play /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.

Transgender is the state of one's "gender identity" (self-identification as woman, man, neither or both) not matching one's "assigned sex" (identification by others as male, female or intersex based on physical/genetic sex).[1] "Transgender" does not imply any specific form of sexual orientation; transgender people may identify as heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, polysexual, or asexual; some may consider conventional sexual orientation labels inadequate or inapplicable to them. The precise definition for transgender remains in flux, but includes:

"Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."[2]
"People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

Transsexual is a fairly specific term. Therapists are most likely to refer a transsexual person for hormone therapy, legal gender status change, and gender corrective surgery. Transsexual individuals have a profound sense of gender dysphoria. They know for an absolute fact that their gender identity does not coincide with the gender of their birth body.

What is transsexualism?

Transsexualism is a condition in which a person experiences a discontinuity between their assigned sex and what they feel their core gender is. For example, a person who was identified as "female" at birth, raised as a girl, and has lived being perceived by others as a woman, may feel that their core sense of who they are is a closer fit with "male" or "man." If this sense is strong and persistent, this person may decide to take steps to ensure that others perceive them as a man. In other words, they may decide to transition to living as the sex that more closely matches their internal gender.

http://www.tsfaq.info/

Transsexuals are the most intensely afflicted of transgender people. They strongly feel that they are, or ought to be, the physical gender opposite to that in which they were born and raised. The body they were born with does not at all match their own inner gender feelings and image of who they are or want to be, nor are they comfortable with the gender role that society expects them to play based on that body. Most are painfully aware of their gender incongruity from very early childhood. While transgender transitioners feel compelled to correct their social gender, transsexual transitioners feel compelled to also correct their physical gender.

http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS-II.html

Transvestites are way different than transsexuals

Definition of TRANSVESTITE
: a person and especially a male who adopts the dress and often the behavior typical of the opposite sex especially for purposes of emotional or sexual gratification

Transvestism (also called transvestitism) is the practice of cross-dressing, which is wearing clothing traditionally associated with the opposite sex. Transvestite refers to a person who cross-dresses; however, the word often has additional connotations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestism

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Response to Boojatta (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:14 PM

28. The term "transvestite" is very out of date, considered offensive.

Please see:

GLAAD's Media Reference Guide: Transgender Glossary Of Terms

A Resource for Journalists, Updated May 2010

TRANSGENDER-SPECIFIC TERMINOLOGY

Transgender An umbrella term (adj.) for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from the sex they were assigned at birth. The term may include but is not limited to: transsexuals, cross-dressers and other gender-variant people. Transgender people may identify as female-to-male (FTM) or male-to-female (MTF). Use the descriptive term (transgender, transsexual, cross-dresser, FTM or MTF) preferred by the individual. Transgender people may or may not decide to alter their bodies hormonally and/or surgically.

Transsexual (also Transexual) An older term which originated in the medical and psychological communities. While some transsexual people still prefer to use the term to describe themselves, many transgender people prefer the term transgender to transsexual. Unlike transgender, transsexual is not an umbrella term, as many transgender people do not identify as transsexual. It is best to ask which term an indi­vidual prefers.

Transvestite Derogatory see Cross-Dressing

Transition Altering one's birth sex is not a one-step process; it is a complex process that occurs over a long period of time. Transition includes some or all of the follow­ing personal, legal and medical adjustments: telling one's family, friends and/or co-workers; changing one's name and/or sex on legal documents; hormone therapy; and possibly (though not always) one or more forms of surgery.

Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS) Refers to surgical alteration, and is only one small part of transition (see Transition above). Preferred term to "sex change operation." Not all transgender people choose to or can afford to have SRS. Journalists should avoid overemphasizing the role of SRS in the transition process.

Cross-Dressing To occasionally wear clothes traditionally associated with people of the other sex. Cross-dressers are usually comfortable with the sex they were assigned at birth and do not wish to change it. "Cross-dresser" should NOT be used to describe someone who has transitioned to live full-time as the other sex or who intends to do so in the future. Cross-dressing is a form of gender expression and is not necessarily tied to erotic activity. Cross-dressing is not indicative of sexual orientation.


Link to entire glossary:
http://www.glaad.org/reference/transgender

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Response to Zenlitened (Reply #28)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:46 PM

36. It is?

 

Some airheads at GLAAD think that a Saxon derived two word term is less derogatory than a Latin derived single word? What is the correct term for Spanish or Italian speakers to use so that they don't offend? Maybe we should just give up and borrow a Chinese word that has no baggage associated with it.

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Response to izquierdista (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:05 PM

40. It is. Adjust. -nt

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Response to Zenlitened (Reply #40)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 03:35 PM

77. I had no intention of offending.

 

I think the word was used in a mere B movie that became an overachiever for that kind of movie: "Psycho" directed by Alfred Hitchcock. In that movie, the doctor explained why Norman Bates shouldn't be given the label "transvestite." The mere fact that Norman Bates was wearing a woman's clothing wasn't enough to indicate that the label "transvestite" was appropriate.

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Response to izquierdista (Reply #36)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:53 AM

108. No, the issue is that they describe two separate things.

Transgendered people have a self-perception of their gender which varies from their physical sex. For example, a person who feels like a woman and wishes to live and be perceived as a woman, but who was born with a penis, is transgendered, whether or not that person has ever acted on feminine feelings, worn women's clothes, or altered their body to appear more female.

A transvestite is typically a male who perceives themselves as a male and generally presents themselves as male, but who is sexually aroused by wearing women's clothing and wears them only for that purpose

For those playing the home game:
Transgender- full-time self-perception of gender
Transvestite- part-time cross-dressing for sexual arousal

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Response to izquierdista (Reply #36)

Sat Jan 21, 2012, 03:48 AM

118. Yes -- it is

Pretty simple to just not use an offensive word, don't you think?

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Response to Zenlitened (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 03:42 PM

78. "Cross-dressing is a form of gender expression and is not necessarily tied to erotic activity."

 

What word is there to describe cross-dressing that is an erotic activity for the person who is cross-dressing?

If a word has a negative connotation, then I can understand introducing a new word with the same denotation, but without the connotation. However, until a word with the same denotation is available, how can you justify trying to pressure people to stop using the old word? If people don't use the old word, then they have no reasonably convenient way either to formulate their thoughts or to communicate those thoughts to others. Also, if the negative connotation automatically arises in the minds of the general public as a consequence of the denotation, then the phasing out of old vocabulary and the introduction of new vocabulary will become a kind of perpetual treadmill akin to changing fashions. What's progressive about that?

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Response to Boojatta (Reply #78)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 08:57 PM

94. Perhaps there is no single word. Perhaps there's no need for one.

You seemed to get your point across just fine:

... cross-dressing that is an erotic activity for the person who is cross-dressing...


If someone wants to have a conversation about eroticism, my impression has been that they generally have no trouble conveying that.

Um, like, no trouble at all.

So I see no need for a particular new-and-improved label. The old language seems to have become stale, apparently because many people have come to regard it as unnecessarily judgmental. But there's plenty of language still fresh and ready-to-serve. Help yourself to as much of it as you'd like.

Regarding:

...the phasing out of old vocabulary and the introduction of new vocabulary will become a kind of perpetual treadmill akin to changing fashions. What's progressive about that?


Not a "perpetual treadmill," but a continual evolution. That's just the way language is: it grows as we do.

What's progressive about that? Everything.

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Response to Zenlitened (Reply #28)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 04:13 PM

81. I have learned something new today. Never knew it was a rude term. nt

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Response to MADem (Reply #81)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:24 PM

85. Did "cross-dresser" become the preferred term to avoid confusion with "transgender"?

It's also possible that one term is self selected while the other implies a pathology.

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:54 PM

89. I have not a hint of a clue. I do know I won't use that other "t" word indiscriminately

in future, though. I had no idea it was poorly regarded.

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Response to hedgehog (Reply #85)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 09:30 PM

96. May be more accurate to say "crossdresser" is a subset of "transgender."

"Transgender" (abbreviated TG) is kind of a blanket term for all people around the issue of gender expression.

Some within the TG community feel it is overly broad, too encompassing, and they prefer terms that communicate something more specific.

But overall I think there is a fairly clear consensus that TG is a good you-get-the-idea sort of term, and that specifics can be added as needed, like in any conversation.

Regarding implications of pathology, that is exactly the issue in the evolution of some of these terms.

In this case, though, both "crossdresser" (abbreviated CD) and "transgender" ARE the new terms, meant to replace the old, medical terms that, as you point out, seem to imply pathology.

"Crossdresser" replaces "transvestite," while "transgender" sort of replaces "transsexual" (abreviated TS).

I say sort of, because "transgender" didn't just replace, it was also meant to be more inclusive, more encompassing. And "transsexual" is still used at times, primarily by folks who plan to have or have had genital surgery.

I guess you could say a TS person is TG, but a TG person is not necessarily TS. While a CD person is also TG, but might not prefer to be called TG lest someone think they are TS, though they won't really take offense and will simply correct you. And, of course, someone who is TS will almost always prefer not to be called CD, although TG is pretty much fine and no offense will be taken.

Does that clear things up?

Uh, yah, no... no it doesn't at all!

Thus "transgender."

Simple, easy to remember once you get the hang of it, and safe to use in pretty much all occasions when the conversation turns to gender expression.



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Response to Boojatta (Reply #11)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:44 PM

30. I think it would raise many more eyebrows

If someone who looked like a woman from clothes/hormones/surgery walked in the men's bathroom. Or vice versa.

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Response to catrose (Reply #30)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:09 PM

42. Exactly.

Seems like common sense.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:11 PM

14. Elected Righties just sit around dreaming up this crap...

They either have too much free time, or the topic feeds their masturbatory fantasies. I hope the taxpayers of TN appreciate his use of public funds.

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Response to radhika (Reply #14)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:24 PM

64. +1

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:20 PM

15. So, is Tenn. going to require showing a birth certificate to use a public bathroom now?

Seems that is a bit paranoid and excessive.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:37 PM

17. Glad to see that

every problem in Tennessee has been solved, so now they are free to tackle these tough, important issues. Guess unemployment is so low that the lawmakers don't need to go out and court businesses to invest in the state.

I should move there, I guess, but then I'd have to be around people like that.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:37 PM

18. Small-dicked GOPer afraid someone might see how small he really is ;) n/t

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:46 PM

19. I wonder if a thin, middle-aged woman

with a little hair on their face might get harassed over this. What are they going to do? Grab her crotch looking for her package? There is plenty to regret in this bill, and Tennesseans should regret having that doofus representing them.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #19)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:57 PM

38. I'm guessing there was no doubt that the teen was a guy.

Despite how much the transgender person may think s/he looks like the other gender, people can usually tell. Clothing is a minor part of what makes a person look like one gender or the other.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #38)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 04:10 AM

109. Since when?

I'm sure we've all seen a few people who were't fooling anybody, but chances are we've also all seen people who were, and didn't notice.

I had a classmate in school who was trans. If I pulled out my yearbook and covered the names (she used her typically male birth name but used female pronouns for some reason, so I apologize if that's confusing) you'd never know which of the young ladies in there was born male.

There are a lot of factors involved, including underlying bone structure and the age at which one begins their transition. Younger people who are able to make the change before all of the gendering effects of puberty shape their bodies have a definite advantage, as do slightly built people transitioning to female, and stockier sorts transitioning to male bodies.

My point is that for every six foot tall woman with a five o'clock shadow and a bad wig, you're probably missing a few people whose appearance falls in the normal range for their perceived gender. For that matter, Six Foot Stubble and Wig lady might just look like Really Tall Lady when you run into her again a few years later, if she's been on hormones and maybe had some surgery to feminize her features. Trans people are generally expected to live in their desired gender for a while as part of their therapy process prior to hormone therapy and surgery, so people who look as if their sex perfectly matches their gender probably didn't when they started the process.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #109)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 01:19 PM

110. Excellent post.

Many if not most of us share the sidewalk with TG people every day, and don't realize. Because all we're seeing is... people.

Sounds healthy to me, for all involved.

And if a person we meet doesn't "pass" or isn't yet...

Well, a genuine smile (and correct use of pronouns!) can do wonders for someone who may be having a rough time of things.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #109)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 02:22 PM

111. Well, I and a lot of other people can spot them.

Watching lots of TV and documentaries about transgender, and seeing transgender on TV, in movies, etc., I can usu spot them. It's not height. It's: adam's apple, size of hands, length of arms (men have longer arms and shorter legs proportionately, while women have the opposite), body fat (even with hormones a man will not have the softness of body that a woman who grew up female will always have, and a woman who has gone through sex change to become a man will never have the hardness of body of a male), shape of body (this is determined genetically and can't be altered...women have somewhat wider hips because of pelvic structure, while men of course have slimmer hips), the way the legs merge into the hips (men's legs fit into hip bones vertically, while women's legs fit into hips at an angle - this is why women have a somewhat swaying walk), etc., etc.

Lots of physical distinctions that can't be changed and are noticeable, if you are aware of these things.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #111)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:11 PM

112. It's confirmation bias. You can't tell when you're wrong.

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Response to LeftyMom (Reply #112)

Thu Jan 19, 2012, 03:23 PM

113. Ding. Some of "them" aren't "spotted" at all.

So there's no "usually" to discuss in the first place.

Too often, we reach conclusions not knowing what we don't know, so to speak. Not aware of what data we're missing, that we haven't even thought to consider.

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Response to Honeycombe8 (Reply #111)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:09 PM

115. Plus there ARE women who have some of the features you specified.

 

Like Ann Coulter. You can't tell at sight.

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Response to Ilsa (Reply #19)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 04:15 PM

82. I had an old aunt who looked a lot like George Washington.

She'd club anyone with her four point cane if they went groping for her package, rest her soul!

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:50 PM

21. Who the heck is going to check if the carpet matches the drapes?


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Response to aikoaiko (Reply #21)

Fri Jan 20, 2012, 10:09 PM

116. Or if it's not carpet

 

but linoleum or hardwood flooring.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 08:58 PM

24. What an asshole. /nt

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:08 PM

26. What are lawmakers scared of?

Seriously. Why so insecure that you need to pass laws to "protect" people?

EDIT TO ADD... Voted in the poll... 85% no they should not be forced to use the bathroom... 15% yes.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #26)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:52 PM

31. What I find total BS about this law is it doesn't protect anybody.

In fact it actually opens up far more harassment and discrimination, and makes it legal. Not only that it can open the door for other forms of harassment and discrimination to become legal. Fuck this bill and anyone who votes for it.

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Response to Initech (Reply #31)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:16 PM

43. Agreed!

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Response to Fearless (Reply #26)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:06 PM

90. Why, fiddly bits, of course! FIDDLY BITS!!!

They want to control what you do with yours, with whom you do it, where you put them, and where you can go if you have a particular sort!

They're terrified of fiddly bits, perhaps because they're secretly so fond of them that they just can't control themselves around them!

FIDDLY BITS!! Oh, the horror! What will we do without pocket-pooling legislators, protecting us from all those FIDDLY BITS!!

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Response to MADem (Reply #90)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 10:19 PM

98. +1

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:14 PM

27. What a hate-filled little cretin

 

On the other hand, I can imagine that normal guys would just dress up as a gal to get into the women's dressing room for a bit of gropey-gropey. But that kind of action is already covered under sexual assault and other established laws. It wouldn't be any different than if another woman entered the women's dressing room and tried to grope some other woman.

If a person looks like a woman, let the person in the women's room. If a person looks like a man, let the person in the men's room.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 09:36 PM

29. Anybody else read some Larry Craig into this? Or was I the only one?

"God-damnit, if they had, or have, a penis, I want them in MY bathroom, with me!"...
"I don't want their sexuality around other women, I want them around me!"...

...yeah.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 10:16 PM

33. my colleague was startled by a huge MTF student using the F teachers' bathrm

I told her the student considers herself F and is more comfortable using the teachers' room than the girls' bathrm, where she'd probably be ridiculed and be in the center of everyone's bad jokes.

There's a lot of education that needs to happen.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:07 PM

41. More unenforceable laws

... from those lovers of small government.

I seriously question the intelligence and maturity of anyone who has a problem with transgender people using the "wrong" toilet facilities.

-- Mal

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:44 PM

45. good news

86% say no.
his sickness is showing.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:48 PM

47. Why do we even have gender specific restrooms???

 

Some places don't bother: everyone gets to use any stall, no urinals, just stalls with privacy, no problemo.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 12:19 AM

50. Precisely. I only have one bathroom at home. It doesn't have a gender clause...

Ridiculous.

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Response to pinto (Reply #50)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 12:45 AM

52. good point

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 07:55 AM

59. To help women feel safer

 

because women live within a culture where it's almost expected that if men have unrestricted access to places where they are undressing, one will place a camera in there.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 12:39 PM

63. Good point.

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Response to noamnety (Reply #59)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:35 PM

88. While I'm sure that's a real concern for some, not sure it's universal (nt).

 

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #47)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:27 PM

87. True story: friends of mine were in a certain foreign country and

went to use the facilities. He went right to the Men's, she went left to the Woman's. They went through the separate doors and found themselves in the same room!

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Thu Jan 12, 2012, 11:50 PM

48. Let the trans-gendered individual choose. nt

 

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 12:29 AM

51. so now one needs a birth certificate to go the the bathroom.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:58 AM

54. This is another attack against social progress

Republicans love to oppress all sorts of people, including transgender people, don't they?

We have to continually fight hard for and to maintain social progress.

BTW, forcing transgender people to use the bathroom of their "birth sex" would obviously endanger them and effectively ostracize them from society, and thus is pure oppression against transgender people.

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Response to AZ Progressive (Reply #54)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 09:58 PM

97. Exactly! -nt

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:56 AM

55. Like another poster, I'm a fan of the UNISEX solution.

That way, no one needs to get their drawers in a bunch over anything. Single facilities, close the door, there ya go.

Sheesh. So silly.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 07:16 AM

57. If this bill passes, which I don't think it will

 

But if it does, they are going to regret this in lawsuits. There should be 3 types of restrooms. Unisex, male and female.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 08:01 AM

60. Are the terms "transgender"

 

and "transvestite" synonymous? I didn't think so. If they're not, that raises two entirely different issues, maybe three if you think this is just a tempest in a teapot, brewed by some witch hunting inquisitor masquerading as a legislator in a representative democracy.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 01:32 PM

65. This guy is actually encouraging HATE CRIMES against transgendered

"I don’t care if he thinks he’s a woman and tries on clothes with them in there — I’d just try to stomp a mudhole in him and then stomp him dry"


Sounds to me like he's encouraging hate crimes against anyone who is a transgender.

And I bet this life-loser considers himself to be a "Christian"

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Response to Hugabear (Reply #65)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:26 PM

72. Yep, yep and yep. A fine, upstanding example of...

... a Man of Values, huh?


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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:28 PM

73. Will there be genital checkpoints in all public restrooms? n/t

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Response to bitchkitty (Reply #73)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:59 PM

75. TSA employees can now moonlight. nt

 

nt

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 02:34 PM

74. We have several unisex bathrooms on my campus.

 

People need to loosen up.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 04:18 PM

83. I imagine this paranoid, obsessive idiot

 

(who obviously thinks transgendered means rapist)....would completely freak out if Rue Paul, or Danny La Rue in full regalia, were at the urinal right next to him trying to make small talk lol.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:18 PM

84. That's so stupid. Don't they realize that tgs are usually attracted to people who are their birth

 

gender?

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 05:25 PM

86. Floyd and Watson are in dire need of therapy

it's sad they are allowed to parade their delusions as part of their jobs

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:10 PM

91. So glad to hear that the gentleman from TN has his priorities

............... wrong.

Who the hell really cares - if you are that afraid then may be you stay at home Rep.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 06:12 PM

92. So glad to hear that the gentleman from TN has his priorities

............... snark.

Who the hell really cares - if you are that afraid then may be you stay at home Rep.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Fri Jan 13, 2012, 09:12 PM

95. where are the Republicans condemning this nanny state invasion on our lives?

oh wait, they've run out of breath getting worked up over San Francisco banning Happy Meal toys (misrepresenting that law of course banning kids from eating fast food) and Obama not releasing his birth certificate. and of course gays deserve to get their lives ruined! and regarding the scare tactic of sexual assaults happening in restrooms or dressing rooms. sexual assault in that setting is already illegal and will remain to be even if transgender people get equal access. the simple presence of a man dressed as a woman in the women's room isn't a danger unless the person intended to commit lewd conduct.

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Response to alp227 (Reply #95)

Sun Jan 15, 2012, 01:15 AM

102. repugs only condemn the nanny state when they're not in charge

When they are, anything goes ---civil rights, environmental protection, education, health care for the poor and middle class---it's all out the door.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Sat Jan 14, 2012, 04:56 AM

100. " I’d just try to stomp a mudhole in him and then stomp him dry. "

People voted for this person.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Sat Jan 14, 2012, 09:17 AM

101. If the transition is complete, what remains to be determined?

 

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Sun Jan 15, 2012, 02:04 AM

103. Backlash event going on now.....sending him toilet paper to show opposition.

Organized effort to show disgust w/this silly bill.
Requesting people to send him a roll of TP w/your sentiments written on it.
Many have asked if it should be "used" (ewww). LOL

I hate that he represents the town where I grew up.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Sun Jan 15, 2012, 05:05 AM

104. Here's a link to a poll on this......show your love DU.

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Response to d_r (Original post)

Sun Jan 15, 2012, 06:04 PM

105. Kick!

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