Venezuela navy vessel sinks after 'ramming cruise ship'

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: BBC

A Venezuelan navy coastal patrol boat sank in the Caribbean after allegedly ramming a cruise ship that it had ordered to change direction.

The owners of the Portuguese-flagged RCGS Resolute said the naval vessel Naiguata also fired shots in an "act of aggression in international waters”.

The collision left the cruise ship, which has a reinforced hull for sailing in icy waters, with only minor damage.

Venezuela accused the Resolute of an act of "aggression and piracy".

Read more: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-52151951

---

WTF? Each side's statements:

https://www.columbia-cs.com/statement-on-rcgs-resolute-incident/
http://www.mindefensa.gob.ve/mindefensa/2020/03/31/comunicado-oficial-de-la-fuerza-armada-nacional-bolivariana-5/
http://www.minci.gob.ve/venezuela-denuncia-incursion-ilegal-de-buque-portugues-en-aguas-jurisdiccionales/

"Does not rule out the transport of mercenaries to attack military bases in Venezuela" seems like Trump-level paranoia/blaming.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

1. Appropriate remedy for ramming a passenger ship. How many passengers did they want to kill?

Did the cruise ship rescue the Venezuelans?

[The Magistrate]

2. Was This In Territorial Waters, Sir, Or On The High Seas?

If the former, the order ought to have been obeyed.

[FBaggins]

3. There reportedly were no passengers onboard

Just 35 maintenance crew

But some reports sound like the Venezuelans fired "warning" shots and intentionally rammed the cruise ship in an attempt to force them into port.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

7. Thanks for some pertinent info. I wonder if they were in international or territorial waters. . . nt

[The Magistrate]

12. From The BBC Report, Sir

It sounds like a borderline case. When the company claims they were thirteen miles from a Venezuelan island, they probably were using the proper unit, nautical miles, but if they were using statute miles, they were within limits. In either case, the location is a close shave.

Official statements from Maduro's government seem the risible boilerplate.

[lagomorph777]

4. I assume they'd let the Venezuelans fend for themselves.

I sure as hell would.

[ripcord]

6. Ships aren't under any obligation to rescue pirates

With only 35 crewmen on board would it really be smart to pick up a bunch of people who had already attacked you?

[Judi Lynn]

5. So many smaller countries targeted by the US eventually go wild & try to commit suicide

by attacking something in their territory they believe to be hostile and end up being far worse off. Very old story. US foreign affairs watchers have already seen this scheme:

GENERAL ASSEMBLY PLENARY
DOWNING OF PLANES SOVEREIGN ACT IN DEFENCE OF BORDERS, CUBA TELLS GENERAL ASSEMBLY

Press Release
GA/9052

DOWNING OF PLANES SOVEREIGN ACT IN DEFENCE OF BORDERS, CUBA TELLS GENERAL ASSEMBLY
19960306 Citing Long History of Provocative Acts, Foreign Minister Gives Detailed Account of Cuban Position
The Foreign Minister of Cuba, Roberto Robaina Gonzalez, told the General Assembly this morning that his country's downing of two planes flown over Cuban airspace on 24 February by the organization "Brothers to the Rescue" was a sovereign act in defence of its borders, taken after a long history of provocative acts by that organization.

Addressing the Assembly at a special meeting held at Cuba's request, he said the group's aggressive plans left no room for doubt that it was a paramilitary, terrorist organization in open war against his country. "Cuba has more than enough proof that this organization made plans to dynamite high tension towers in Havana, to sabotage the Cienfuegos oil refinery and to carry out attempts on the lives of the main Cuban leaders, among other actions", he stated.

"Today we are asking this Assembly if the sovereign right to defend the borders and national security of countries is only a prerogative of the powerful and not of poor and small countries", he continued. "If the world tolerates what has happened to Cuba, it would be tantamount to giving a license to freely violate national sovereignty and to convert all nations of the international community into potential victims."

He said the Cuban-American ultra-right, in complicity with extremist sectors of the United States Congress, had initiated a "mean conspiracy", both against Cuba and against that country's own Administration, in the midst of a ferocious electoral fight for the presidency. Despite irrefutable evidence that the United States Government had also been concerned about the actions of "Brothers to the Rescue", the Administration was now being dragged into serious contradictions, which had led to passage of a bill intensifying the blockade against Cuba.

More:
https://www.un.org/press/en/1996/19960306.ga9052.html

[Judi Lynn]

8. You may recall 2 days ago Trump claimed Venezuela's president was planning massive drug invasion

against the US during this national crisis, claiming they are trying to sneak up on US authorities while the US is busy trying to put out the Coronavirus fire. Right. You betcha.

APRIL 1, 2020 / 4:08 PM / 2 DAYS AGO
Trump doubles U.S. military assets in Caribbean, bolstering drug fight after Maduro indictment
Matt Spetalnick, Phil Stewart
5 MIN READ

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Trump administration said on Wednesday it was deploying more U.S. Navy warships and aircraft to the Caribbean to prevent drug cartels and “corrupt actors” like Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro from exploiting the coronavirus pandemic to smuggle more narcotics.

U.S. President Donald Trump addresses the daily coronavirus response briefing as National Security Advisor Robert O'Brien, Attorney General William Barr, Defense Secretary Mark Esper and U.S. Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley listen at the White House in Washington, U.S., April 1, 2020. REUTERS/Tom Brenner
President Donald Trump said he was doubling U.S. military resources in the region, including destroyers, surveillance planes and personnel, in an anti-drug crackdown to deal with what he called a “growing threat.”

The beefed-up operation - quickly dismissed by the Maduro government - will also call for sending Navy ships closer to Venezuela, according to a U.S. official and two people familiar with the matter, who spoke on condition of anonymity. But it was unclear how close they would get to Venezuelan shores, the sources said.

. . .

It followed the indictment last week of Maduro and more than a dozen current and former officials on charges of narco-terrorism conspiracy, drug trafficking and corruption.

More:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-venezuela-navy/u-s-to-deploy-navy-ships-closer-to-venezuela-sources-idUSKBN21J6VH

[The Magistrate]

10. How Venezuela Runs Itself, Ma'am, Is None Of Our Damn Business

During the struggle against Soviet totalitarianism, a case could be made for intervention in the affairs of countries whose political systems were on a course to Soviet allegiance. I do not think all such cases were good enough to act on, mind, and the means used were generally reprehensible and often atrocious. There were better ways to head off that danger in almost every instance.

But at present, there is no excuse for such interference. It would be an interesting exercise for analysis, to try and determine what portion of Venezuela's difficulties owe to its government's policies, to fluctuations in the market price of the country's chief export, and to deliberate economic sabotage, by opponents of Venezuela's present government, both external and internal.

[Judi Lynn]

11. The gov't Trump is trying to destroy is wildly injured from his new economic warfare tactics:

How the US is using coronavirus to push regime change in Venezuela



Protesters against US intervention in Venezuela

Peter Bolton
3rd April

Ever since the Trump administration launched a coup attempt against the democratically-elected government of Venezuela in January 2019, the country’s civilian population has been suffering under a brutal sanctions regime. Amidst the coronavirus outbreak, Venezuelans are now at even greater risk given that the government is hamstrung by what has essentially morphed into a full-blown economic blockade.

But having so far failed in its ‘regime change’ effort, the Trump administration has now stooped to a new low by cynically using the global public health crisis as a weapon to oust president Nicolás Maduro.

An offer signed in the blood of Venezuelan civilians
On 31 March, reports emerged that the US is offering to lift the sanctions against Venezuela if its government agrees to hand over power to a “transitional council” that would govern the country until fresh elections are held. In other words, Washington is signalling that Venezuela can either have the government that it favors or continue to suffer from crippling shortages of food, medicines, and other crucial supplies. These shortages have already proven deadly; according to one 2019 report, US sanctions had led to the deaths of around 40,000 people before the coup attempt even began.

Now it appears that the Trump administration is cynically capitalizing on the further suffering caused by the coronavirus outbreak to intensify its coup attempt. And its key regime change personnel aren’t making any secret of this, either. On 31 March, the Guardian reported that US attorney general William Barr said: “It’s good timing, actually… The people in Venezuela are suffering”.

More:
https://www.thecanary.co/global/world-analysis/2020/04/03/how-the-us-is-using-coronavirus-to-push-regime-change-in-venezuela/

My bolding.

[The Magistrate]

13. I Am Aware Deliberate Harm Is Being Done, Ma'am

There is also mismanagement and corruption and market downturns. Venezuela's oil is not much better than the Canadian tar sands, in regards to cost and difficulty of refining, and is a hard sell when oil prices drift downwards. So certainly there are other factors besides the sabotage engaged in. We are in agreement that ought to cease, and so should attempts at political manipulation. I say this not from support for Maduro, but for the reason I gave, that it is none of our business, and if Venezuela chooses to set itself on a course to hell, it can select its preferred handbasket and do so, without interference from anyone else.

[Judi Lynn]

17. In time, the vast majority of Venezuela's citizens will be able to secure a gov't

not controlled by foreign interests.

Unfortunately, all of the Americas have learned they actually do have to fight the US and US-dominated allies for control of their own governments, resources, and peace.

[The Magistrate]

19. An Outcome Devoutly To Be Wished, Ma'am

We need to leave Latin America to handle its own affairs. I expect they can do so well enough. At present, we are hardly such an inspiring example as to give us the right to tell others how they ought to arrange either their government, or their economic and social order.

[rwsanders]

24. Good job Judi

I was slammed here for suggesting that the US was conspiring with the Saudis to drive down oil prices to bankrupt Venezuela.
Some folks still only see through red, white and blue glasses.

[Judi Lynn]

47. The people who actually pay attention, think, have learned how propaganda works, who research

are not the ones who tried to scuffle with you. Very sad they'd rather take the time fighting from a position in xenophobic anti-democratic chauvism than in learning what is really at stake, learning ALL about US right-wing interventionism in all the Americas for over a hundred years, and what happens to every left-leaning elected leader.

Learning the truth takes so much longer, and thinking can hurt their heads, so they'd rather launch attacks at those who do know, and hope they can get enough kindred "spirits" to start a melee.

It's sad.

The truth is STILL going to win, in the end. It just takes longer than lies to be heard.

You are kind, rwsanders. Thanks.

[ripcord]

22. It is amazing what people think they can get away with saying here

The U.S, did not launch a coup attempt on Venezuela, that was the population fed up with Maduro and his corruption attempting to save themselves by overthrowing him.

[rwsanders]

23. How can you definitively say that when it goes against 150 years of documented history?

[ripcord]

25. History is nice

But proof is nicer, show some proof. Remember their constitutional crisis was came from Maduro stripping the General Assembly of power and stealing an election. The U.S. didn't make him do that, he did it because he is a dictator who fears losing power.

[rwsanders]

28. Like the CIA likes to leave a trail?

L. Fletcher Prouty laid out the process perfectly in his book on JFK. Same thing in The Imperial Cruise by James Bradley, and War is a Racket by Smedley Butler, what is known about Iran, etc., etc.
So a bit early to be dismissive of the possibility.

[ripcord]

29. You have dismissed a possibility

You refuse to even consider that Maduro is an incompetent crook and there is more evidence to support that than anything else.

[rwsanders]

30. Now I know why the phrase "OK boomer" became a thing. OK boomer.

[rwsanders]

32. Are you a Trump supporter that slipped in? Sure sounds like you are making excuses for him starting

a war with Venezuela to boost his poll numbers:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/ap-sources-us-deploy-anti-drug-ships-venezuela-69921867

[ripcord]

34. So you have no proof of your accusations

You accuse me of being a Trump supporter but you are supporting someone who has already done the things we worry Trump will do. He stole an election and took power from their country's legislative body, how could you possibly back such a totalitarian dictator and sleep at night?

[Judi Lynn]

49. Don't repeat lies. Take the time to do your homework. n/t

[ripcord]

50. I hate to inform you

But that isn't proof, Venezuela is suffering under the rule of Maduro and his totalitarian government, using the military to suppress opposition puts him in the dictator camp. Would agree if Trump taking the same actions to suppress people who protested against him?

[Judi Lynn]

52. Speaking of proof, it would be valuable if you decided to start providing proof for your claims.

You have demanded we should simply accept your word, and the claims of right-wing racist oligarchs that any leftist leader needs to be murdered in his sleep so US interests can reclaim control of his country of birth and the masses of poor citizens used as a helpless labor pool for US-controlled industries.

[ripcord]

53. You made an accusation

If you can't support it I understand.

[The Magistrate]

33. There Was, However, Sir, A Coup Attempt Against Col. Chavez

During which the U.S. Embassy gave every appearance of having coordinated actions with the plotters. It failed owing to solid support for Col. Chavez among the rank and file of Venezuela's armed forces, against high ranking officers and a good part of the municipal police forces seeking his ouster.

Our country has considerable form when it comes to fomenting coups and civil unrest in Latin America. By now there is nothing inherently dubious about any charge we are up to our old tricks. Our position is approximately that of a career burglar proclaiming he did not break into this particular house last night --- it may be true, but is hardly persuasive, given the source.

[ripcord]

35. The common people rose up because they were starving under the Maduro abuses

There is no proof the U.S. instigated any of the unrest, I keep asking for proof and all I get is people telling me it has it simply has to have happened the way they said it did. Next you are going to claim Maduro didn't steal the election and didn't have the power stripped from the General Assembly.

[The Magistrate]

37. Why Should I Claim Any Such Thing, Sir?

I merely point to the history behind why people find the charge credible on its face.

There is no doubt Maduro has behaved poorly.

There is no doubt Venezuela has suffered from a down-turn in demand and price for its chief export commodity.

There is no doubt Venezuela has suffered from a credit squeeze that aggravates its situation on top of these factors.

My interest in the situation at present does not extend much past this. It does not much interest me. It is a problem humans have caused themselves, and which can be fixed by humans behaving differently than they are doing now.

As usual, the people getting it in the neck are those who have had the least degree of influence in creation of the situation they suffer in.

I would, however, point out that if the people of Venezuela had actually risen en mass, Maduro would not still hold power. The very persistence of the situation suggests he has some appreciable degree of popular support still. It would probably be worth looking into the actual divisions within Venezuelan society, and comparing these to the circumstances prior to Col. Chavez, and to what they were during his rule, and in the early stages of Maduro's regime.

[ripcord]

38. I'm going to have to disagree with you

Venezuela has experienced a credit squeeze because they expropriated foreign holdings, there is of course going to be a lack of foreign investment after that sort of theft. The people rising up have no chance as long as Maduro controls the army which he has used to brutally suppress protests and opposition. I wonder if our President used the military in that fashion if we would consider him legitimate?

[The Magistrate]

39. You Choose To Disagree With Me, Sir

Nothing requires you to do so.

Whatever the occasion for it, you acknowledge a financial squeeze is going on, and there is no doubt it affects the situation to the detriment of the people of Venezuela. It would be a pretty problem to sort out which of the various factors in the situation is the most immediate cause of the people's distress.

If Maduro retains the loyalty of the rank and file soldiery, there must be a reason for it. In the situation as it exists, military discipline is insufficient as an explanation. A great many instances in which a government is overthrown amid great popular disorder turn on the soldiery ceasing to obey their officers and turning on the regime, either by mass desertion, or by pointing their guns in a different direction.

One interesting phenomenon which stands out in the situation, running all the way back to Col. Chavez, is the attitude of municipal police. These are generally the portion of the state apparatus most blindly loyal to the state, and most zealous in the maintenance of order. In Venezuela for some time, municipal police have often ranged themselves against the government. It is a curious phenomenon.

[ripcord]

40. There is a simple solution to this problem

Maduro could resign his illegitimate presidency and allow free elections. With every action Maduro takes we should ask ourselves how we would react if Trump did the same thing.

[The Magistrate]

41. If The Situation In Venezuela Were Any Of My Business, Sir, I Might Do So

But it is not, and it is not the business of our government. Nor for that matter is it particularly the business of various bankers and investors, who may even have lost money. Those are risks such persons take, and certainly by classic economic theory, it is wrong to shield them from loss of capital if they misjudge the situation, or even are afflicted by unforeseen events or by the force majeur of some state action.

[ripcord]

42. Risk is one thing theft is another

I honestly don't understand why people refuse to acknowledge that Venezuela's current problems are of their own making would you consider Trump taking over foreign companies to be legitimate and just the cost of doing business? Would you expect the countries where those companies are owned to just docily accept those actions? I'm also amazed at how many people refuse to understand that Maduro has no interest in the well being of the Venezuelan people, his only concern is Nicholas Maduro.

[The Magistrate]

43. Theft, Sir, Is Merely One Form Risk Takes

I do not and never have felt private concerns abroad are entitled to protection by the government where the enterprise may be headquartered, whether that protection comes in the form of financial measures and sanctions, covert operations, or open employment of military force.

Nor do I necessarily regard nationalization or expropriation as theft per se. A good deal would depend on the conduct of the corporation over the course of its ownership, and on what the government found to be occasion for nationalization or expropriation.There are certainly instances where I would consider such measures more than justified.


"The nearest thing to an ethic known by merchants is 'Don't gouge too deep.'"

[ripcord]

44. Whatever you call it Venezuelans are suffering because of those actions

Why would any foreign company do business in a nation that could decide at any moment to take everything you have in their country for themselves? Should someone force companies and counties to do business with an untrustworthy nation state? No one is going to invest anything in Venezuela simply because they are untrustworthy and that lead to the country's instability, the Venezuelan leadership has screwed their people.

[The Magistrate]

45. Venezuelans Suffer From A Combination Of Circumstances, Sir

The matter seems to be of great interest to you, but you do not seem inclined to sort out the various strands of the situation. From your comments, there seems to be emerging a sense that what concerns you most is harm done to foreign capital by Venezuela's government. Retaliation for such harm by foreign capital extends beyond mere halting of further investment, and you seem to be aware this retaliation causes distress. You feel that is justified. Whether it is or is not is not clear to me, and would require some detailed examination of particular cases. It is not uncommon for foreign capital to conduct itself in ways that amount to theft, theft of resources or of profits of native firms, or to conduct itself in general in such a way as to amount to arrogating extra-territorial rights to itself. A thief has scant grounds for complaint his wallet has been lifted at gunpoint by another. Some might view that as justice.


"To live outside the law you must be honest."

[ripcord]

48. Ever since the Venezuelan government took control of the national oil company inflation has risen

The problem isn't the companies that invested in Venezuela, is it their national policy. If you show you are hostile to foreign businesses then they won't want anything to do with you, that is just common sense. No business is going to invest in a country where the local dictator is going take their holdings at will. I don't know why something so simple is misunderstood by some people. Chavez complained that the foreign companies were making money off of Venezuela's resources, but he always failed to mention they were making money for his country also, that is the definition of foreign investment. How much is Venezuela they making after they pissed off the oil industry? The risk just isn't worth it for the inferior quality oil located in Venezuela and that is their only major export. And people still think the U.S. is responsible for the incompetency of the Venezuelan government who has no more business running an oil industry than I do.

[The Magistrate]

51. The Question, Sir, Can Be Simplified

Sovereign authority generally asserts ownership of sub-surface wealth.

Companies purchase the right to extract same by contracting to pay a royalty on the proceeds of selling the substance extracted.

In many instances, these contracts are at their root far from equitable. They are, in some instances, the products of a degree of coercion, where the firm has the backing of a major power, and is seeking to exploit resources of a smaller and poorer nation at a minimal cost to itself. In such circumstances the contracts often are the product of corruption, in which a leader is brought off with some great personal benefit, while the royalties paid to the state itself are quite small. A company once it has secured a contract may conduct itself in an offensive manner, being dishonest in its accounting to the detriment of the state's royalties, or conducting its affairs in a manner which puts the state's authority at naught on its property, in the knowledge it will be backed by a power able to overawe local authorities.

In such circumstances, a government of the present day certainly has the right to request if not demand renegotiation of royalty payments. If a company refuses, or does not enter in good faith into such negotiations, it quite escapes me why the local government should not re-assert its ownership of the underlying assets, and confiscate the means erected to bring them to market. That it may face some threat of a 'capital strike' is a reason, but hardly a legitimate one. That is more in the nature of remarking on what a nice little country you've got here, that it would be shame if something happened to it, and that if you try to do anything about the royalties being fixed at antique levels by a local thief with epaulets a few decades back, why, it just might. It is not, after all, as if the company has not more than recouped its investment over the years it has operated, and the country is entitled to some claw-back of value to cover the loss it has incurred through royalties having been pegged long ago at inequitable rates.

[ripcord]

54. You keep making accusations but you never back them up

Without support they aren't really worth much.

[The Magistrate]

56. I Am Aware Of The History Behind Foreign Investment In Latin America, Sir

I make no statement concerning details of Venezuelan contracts at the commencement of Col. Chavez' rule. I do know there were bitter feelings in Venezuela concerning them in the 1950s, towards the end of which a well regarded fellow named Romulo Betancourt served as President after the overthrow of the dictator Jimenez, who was certainly considered a puppet of the oil companies.

What I have done is lay out a number of possibilities which I would consider more than justify a government in nationalizing a company's assets and reasserting sovereign control over resources it owns. You do not seem to have any disagreement with them, you merely maintain I have not shown they apply to the particular case of Venezuela early in the rule of Col. Chavez. I have not asserted they do. Based on awareness of the history of foreign investment, particular foreign investment in oil in both Latin America and the Middle East, however, I would consider that it is likely they do, in some part at least, and would view as investment grade a wager that upon a detailed examination of the situation some of the pug-marks set out above would be disclosed as present in the contracts and in the behavior of the companies concerned.

[ripcord]

57. And now they get to reap the benefits of their decisions

I'm sure the people of Venezuela are thrilled with those decisions that directly lead them to where they are today. Why would they possibly want a new leadership since the old one has taken such good care of them?

[The Magistrate]

59. Again, Sir, You Seem Determined To Ignore Relevant Factors

You come at this from an ideological point of view. Preconceptions make it difficult to appreciate events, especially ones that take place outside one's own familiar cultural and social streams. Until you make some attempt to incorporate into your view of the situation factors beyond your distaste for Maduro, what you say will continue to be cheap agitprop. I appreciate the opportunity you have offered me to place before this forum some factors of the situation that are often overlooked, and sometimes actively distorted. I hold no brief for Maduro, but a great deal more is involved than Maduro in the present distress of the people of Venezuela.

[EX500rider]

60. Not really, he & Chavez are epicenter of all the bad decisions made in Venz....

.....that got them where they are.

Drop in oil production?


Chavez fired all the competent oil workers and replaced them with loyalists lackeys, then diverted oil field maint. money to his social giveaways that bought the votes. Then started seizing foreign oil field assets scaring away the needed foreign help & expertise.

Lack of dollars to buy imports needed to feed the country?
Multi-layer govt exchange rates limited access to dollars.
https://mises.org/library/venezuelas-bizarre-system-exchange-rates

No food in the stores?
Government price controls on basic food items near or under costs killing production, expropriation of farmlands and food production then running it poorly or not at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_policy_of_the_Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez_administration#Agriculture_and_land_reform

80,000% inflation?
Print money like it's going out of style.
http://theconversation.com/what-caused-hyperinflation-in-venezuela-a-rare-blend-of-public-ineptitude-and-private-enterprise-102483

Stealing the election? Done.
https://www.electoralintegrityproject.com/international-blogs/2018/5/30/rigged-elections-venezuelas-failed-presidential-election

No foreign hand in any of that if you don't count Cuba's advice on how to run a efficient Police State.

[The Magistrate]

61. Ah, The Dreaded 'Social Giveaways', Sir

One wonders how you would characterize such expenditures on the welfare of ordinary citizens if they occurred in this country. And heaven knows the wealth of a country must be carefully sequestered from any contact with its citizenry. If it is not, why, all hell breaks loose.

And are you seriously citing the 'Mises Institute' at me in support of some argument you intend to press?

Between that and the Wikipedia links, Sir, you demonstrate unchallengeable mastery of the issues, that must leave me writhing helpless in your forensic grip.

But I do have other things to do, and other conversations to carry on, so....

[EX500rider]

62. Was the Mises Inst. incorrect in their article about currency control?

Easier to attack source then refute, I get it.
Lots of other sources who will agree the govt polices dried up the supply of dollars necessary for the import of essential products.
End result, people starving who have jobs.

"Social giveaways" at the expense of all else like infrastructure maintenance is never a good idea. Esp oil field maintenance since that funds the giveaways. And price controls on food during massive inflation is guaranteed to dry up food availability. Nobody forced them to do those stupid things.

The Venezuelan electrical grid is plagued with occasional blackouts in various districts of the country. In 2011, it had so many problems that rations on electricity were put in place to help ease blackouts.[140] On 3 September 2013, 70% of the country plunged into darkness with 14 of 23 states of Venezuela stating they did not have electricity for most of the day.[143] Another power outage on 2 December 2013 left most of Venezuela in the dark again and happened just days before elections

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Venezuela#Energy

In a study Wikki proved about equal to encyclopedia's in error ratios.

[The Magistrate]

63. That Is All The Attention You Are Going To Get, Sir

Wear it in good health....

[EX500rider]

64. No problem, Maduro supporters are by default long on rhetoric & short on facts.

Not saying you are a supporter, but if the shoe fits wear it.

[The Magistrate]

65. When You Find One To Argue With, Sir, Have At It

You might want to hunt up among my comments to note that my basic position is that I do not care a fig, and consider the matter no business of the government of my country. My sole interest in the exchange with the fellow yesterday was to point him towards understanding of why people found certain views of the matter different from his both possible and plausible. I am quite familiar with the history behind where the matter stands today. That has some small interest for me.

You are approaching this from a different angle, a straight-up 'oh my Lord someone did something neither von Mises nor Ayn Rand could possibly approve of!' sort of hissy fit, and there is no point to engaging you, particularly over a matter which, I will repeat, does not rank very high among my concerns.



"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercise in moral philosophy, that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness."

[hack89]

15. The US has nothing to do with this ship

Registered in Madeira and flying a Portuguese flag, property of a German cruise company. Operated by a Canadian concern, One Ocean Expeditions and crewed by Ukranians.

[Igel]

16. Paranoia can run deep.

"False flag" isn't just a meaningless metaphor. Ships, like patrols, bear flags.

When you rely on fear of your all-powerful archenemy to keep your people in line, you need to stoke that fear in times of trouble.

You also need to be infallible, because if you're fallible in one area, it means you might make a mistake in some other area. This either enables criticism (oh, noes!) or allows for hope of rebellion (oh, noes^2!). So if you have a bunch of coast guard folk who either misread their equipment or don't like the tone of what's said in response to their "forceful" questions or just want to be overachievers in defense of their fatherland and great leader, you need to cover for them. Until you declare them enemies of the people and execute them.

For now, it's cover. Although one has to wonder either way--the crew of a coast guard vessel that either puts itself in the way of a large ship or tries to ram that particular ship cannot be the best trained. Large ships, esp. those with engines down for repairs, aren't that maneuverable to begin with. Even if we assume great malice on the part of the cruise ship captain--something we have trouble justifying--that whole "large ships aren't that maneuverable" comes into play. It's like having a fly slam into a slowly moving fly swatter--the smaller thing is more nimble.


Paranoia also makes the truth a commodity rarer than imported antivirals or filet. Even if the top dogs in the government know the truth, they often can't say it out loud.

[ripcord]

21. That is the way many here think

Venezuela attacking a Portuguese vessel in international waters simply has to be the fault of the United States somehow.

[OnlinePoker]

9. From the cruise ship "...around 13.3 nautical miles from Isla de Tortuga"

The Isla is Venezuelan territory and territorial waters are 12 nautical miles from land. However, Venezuela also has a contiguous zone claim of 15 nautical miles and 200 NM continental shelf claim, so this ship was in their territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

[christx30]

14. I wouldn't trust anyone in authority in Venezuela.

They'd probably have stolen the ship and arrested the crew for made up charges. Can't really trust that kind of government to do right by you. If that means the crew of the navy ends up in the drink, so be it. Let Maduro stew.

[Igel]

18. They're different things with different levels of control.

The 12 mile limit is for sovereignty.

Contiguous waters have a different set of properties. If the coast guard folk suspected the ship was violating immigration or customs or sanitary laws, there are two possibilities for what they could do. If they were in hot pursuit (not the case) they can interdict. If they suspected it was heading into territorial waters they could just wait. More cover for stopping a ship inside that 12 mile limit than outside it.

The 200 mile claim is their economic zone.

Otherwise ships are granted innocent transit through even territorial waters unless there's a claim they're violating some law that comports with international agreements. So if they're smuggling drugs, then interdiction is reasonable within the 12 mile limit.

The "armed mercenaries" explains a lot, IMHO.

[Kaleva]

20. Venezuelan Navy scores a kill

[EX500rider]

46. More like a self goal...lol nt

[C_U_L8R]

26. Sounds like something Trump would do

Unfortunately, we're the ship he's sinking.

[Chainfire]

27. So the XO says to the captain

as they are floating in the open sea, "Don't you hate it when that happens?"

[hauweg]

31. Ship run by a German cruise company

Here's Deutsche Welle's perspective which reads quite different from the OPs statement
https://www.dw.com/en/venezuelan-navy-boat-rams-german-cruise-ship-and-sinks/a-53002237

[dware]

36. Hmmm,

I wonder if they were attempting to hijack the ship for the food they thought was on board, after all, there are massive food shortages in Venezuela due to the incompetence and corruption of the Maduro regime.

Oh well, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Looking at the picture of the Resolute, which wasn't in the article when I first saw it

the Resolute's claim that the Naiguata hit it multiple times holds up.

[ripcord]

58. It is obvious isn't it?

This cruise shop, full of mercenaries of course, chased down and outmaneuvered a coast guard vessel in order to ram and sink it.