Two U.S. carrier groups conduct exercises in South China Sea

[Nocturnowl]

Source: Reuters

(Reuters) - Two U.S. carrier groups conducted joint exercises in the South China Sea on Tuesday, days after a U.S. warship sailed near Chinese-controlled islands in the disputed waters, as China denounced the United States for damaging peace and stability.

The Theodore Roosevelt Carrier Strike Group and the Nimitz Carrier Strike Group “conducted a multitude of exercises aimed at increasing interoperability between assets as well as command and control capabilities”, the U.S. Navy said, marking the first dual carrier operations in the busy waterway since July 2020.

In Beijing, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin said the frequent moves by U.S. warships and aircraft into the South China Sea in a “show of force” was not conducive to regional peace and stability. “China will continue to take necessary measures to firmly safeguard national sovereignty and security and work with countries in the region to firmly safeguard peace and stability in the South China Sea,” he said.

The exercise comes days after China condemned the sailing of the destroyer, the USS John S. McCain, near the Chinese-controlled Paracel Islands in what the United States calls a freedom of navigation operation - the first such mission by the U.S. navy since President Joe Biden took office.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-southchinasea-usa-carriers/two-u-s-carrier-groups-conduct-exercises-in-south-china-sea-idUSKBN2A90I5

---

This is not helpful, Mr President.

[Old Crow]

1. What do you mean, "This is not helpful, Mr. President"?

You don't think free passage in international waters is worth asserting?

Are you aware that the Chinese are claiming territorial rights to waters that are one thousand miles away from the Chinese coast? And that those claims have been judged entirely without merit by the Hague? What China is doing in the South China Sea is highly aggressive and is an affront to Vietnam, the Philippines, and Malaysia.

From your comment, it sounds like you think the Biden administration's policy should be to cede the South China Sea to China in the interest of not making waves. Is that the case?

[Nocturnowl]

4. It is Not

The extent of Beijing's territorial claim is quite obviously ridiculous, but the South China Sea is named that for a reason, and we've made too many incursions into waters just off their coast over the past two decades. Am I saying this exercise is one of them? Depends on just how close the carrier groups are away from the mainland. But it continues the psychology of "We'll do whatever the Hell we want!" that has served us so poorly in the Middle East, to cite one example.

[dalton99a]

7. The South China Sea belongs to China as much as the Arabian Sea belongs to Saudi Arabia

or the Indian Ocean belongs to India.

China's territorial claims are garbage and have zero historical basis.

[Nocturnowl]

10. So, when a Chinese Carrier and Support Ships are Doing Exercises Off Nicaragua,

in the Caribbean, with Managua's permission and participation, you'll be okay with that?

[oldsoftie]

17. Think they can make it that far & stay on station?

Doubtful.

[Jedi Guy]

20. If they're in international waters or Nicaraguan territorial waters, sure.

That's what freedom of navigation means, after all. If they stay in international waters or the territorial waters of a country that invited them, then it's all good. If they encroach on someone's internationally recognized territorial waters, that's something else.

In any case, I very much doubt they have the capability to do any such thing, and your hypothetical scenario has very little to do with the matter at hand, so it's a moot point.

[GulfCoast66]

32. So Mexico can claim the entire Gulf of Mexico?

Freedom of the seas is important.

However, this needs to be settled diplomatically. But if we essentially give it to them before negotiations they will stick to their guns.

[Politicub]

34. The name of the waterway -- The South China Sea -- is just a label.

It doesn't mean that China has jurisdiction and control now and forever.

[hack89]

2. It is very helpful

There has to be pushback to China’s illegal territory grab.

[dalton99a]

11. It is a blatant land grab.

They literally created artificial islands - with military airports - to justify their bullshit territorial claims

I applaud any stand against Chinese imperialism in that part of the world

[Roy Rolling]

3. "Helpful"?

I hear ya. It is not helpful to the Trump policy of being doormats to Asian Communist military dictatorships.

True. Not Helpful.

Thank God the U.S. is no longer helping dictators.

[Roc2020]

5. Do something about it, That's the U.S

message to China. The gloves are off. Trump's policy towards China will not change significantly under Biden. Good.

[soryang]

6. This isn't really about a territorial claim

It's about the Chinese claim to an extensive Exclusive Economic Zone in the East China Sea.

The FON operations around the artificial islands are a wedge issue so the US can shoehorn its way into the competing EEZ claims of nearby countries. The US doesn't actually have a dog in that fight.

[My Pet Orangutan]

8. 'The US doesn't actually have a dog in that fight'

But it has a poodle - Taiwan. And given how 'One country Two systems' played out in Hong Kong, Taiwan is desperate not to be "included" in the mainland

[soryang]

12. Actually Taiwan has extensive EEZ claims in the South China Sea as well

And doesn't recognize the PCA compulsory arbitration decision against China either. Taiwan is the lawful owner of Itu Abu or Taiping Island in the Spratley's which gives it a claim to a 200 mi EEZ claim from that island, same as the PRC claim.

[Nocturnowl]

13. Taiwan? Different Issue!

We must continue our support. If China were to attack the island nation, then would be the time for us to get involved militarily.

[soryang]

15. Both the PRC and Taiwan claim the EEZ based upon their historical sovereignty over Taiping island

It's the same claim.

[My Pet Orangutan]

24. +1

Yes

[ripcord]

19. Our dog in this fight is the Philippines

We have a mutual defense treaty with them Secretary Blinken has said we will defend the nation, Not to mention it is consistent with US policy to stand up to bullies and thieves.

[Nitram]

27. The US has a dog in any fight that is related to freedom of navigation in international waters.

[dalton99a]

9. Chinese militarism against its weaker neighbors should not be tolerated.

[soryang]

14. Chinese militarism?

(Source- The Coming war with China, John Pilger)

[oldsoftie]

18. Ask those locations how much money we spend to be there.

And the majority are glad we ARE there. Otherwise, China ups the ante.
There are 3 superpowers; Russia, China & the US. Most countries are going to align with and be influenced by one of them. Removing the US from the area leaves a power vaccum that WILL be filled by one of the other two. And the UN cant/wont do anything about it.

[Jedi Guy]

21. Setting up shop in a host country with permission vs. building artificial, militarized islands.

The other difference is that the US isn't using those bases to make territorial claims in order to exploit resources that rightfully belong to someone else.

So yeah... Chinese militarism. The shoe fits.

[soryang]

25. artificial islands don't generate territorial claims or EEZ claims

that's why the US sails inside 12 nm and overflies them. they are not a substantial obstruction to rights of passage on international waterways even if they were allowed a limited territorial zone and TCA over airports simply for the sake of safety and practical rules of engagement. The US FON operations do nothing to affect the EEZ claims which are based on natural islands. It's just a risky and unnecessary provocation.

Meanwhile large US corporations continue to expand their businesses in China, and China continues to expand it businesses in the Philippines at the Philippine governments invitation.

[Nitram]

28. the US cannot have a base or make port calls in any country that doesn't allow it. Indonesia,

Vietnam and even the Philippines welcome our protection.

[MicaelS]

16. Fuck the PRC.

Biden is just standing up to them. Just like Russia.

[Mr. Sparkle]

22. China's neighbors wont or cant stand up to them, only America can.

The only countries against this move are the Chinese communist party and Russia.

[soryang]

26. Taiwan doesn't actually support the forced arbitration decision in favor of the Philippines

Contrary to the contentions of the PCA which purport to find that Taiping Island is an "uninhabitable rock," Taiping is a habitable island that can and does support human habitation. This is the argument of Taiwan.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Republic of China (Taiwan) 中華民國外交部 - 全球資訊網英文網
Taiping Island is an island, not a rock, and the ROC possesses full rights associated with an exclusive economic zone and continental shelf in accordance with UNCLOS...

https://www.mofa.gov.tw/en/News_Content.aspx?n=8157691CA2AA32F8&sms=4F8ED5441E33EA7B&s=174B7FC38E9C9F9B

[dware]

23. Sooooooo, what?

Are we supposed to just cede one of the busiest international trade routes to China and their bullshit sovereignty claim?

[Baclava]

29. We're not alone, 'French submarine patrols South China Sea'

A French nuclear attack submarine was among two navy ships that recently conducted a patrol through the South China Sea, its defence minister announced, in a move likely to anger Beijing, which claims most of the strategic waters as its territory.

The SNA Emeraude was accompanied by support ship BSAM Seine for the passage, Defence Minister Florence Parly said on Twitter late Monday.

"This extraordinary patrol has just completed a passage in the South China Sea. A striking proof of the capacity of our French Navy to deploy far away and for a long time together with our Australian, American and Japanese strategic partners," she tweeted along with a picture of the two vessels at sea.



https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210209-french-submarine-patrols-south-china-sea-likely-angering-beijing

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

30. Not just the U.S.

U.S. and France flex muscles in South China Sea, raising Beijing’s ire

Two U.S. carrier groups are conducting exercises in the waters disputed by China, raising Beijing’s ire just as France announced one of its attack submarines had sailed through the zone.

-snip-

The outlook: The continuing exercises are the first under the new U.S. administration, and the U.S. Navy was eager to tweet a picture of a phone call between President Joe Biden and Rear Admiral Jim Kirk aboard the Nimitz. The simultaneous French action seems to chime with Biden’s preference for working with allies when dealing with China.

Link to tweet

?s=20

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-and-france-flex-muscles-in-south-china-sea-raising-beijings-ire/ar-BB1dwUK0?li=BBnb7Kz

[sarisataka]

31. Wow what a difference in tone

A few months can make. Quite different from the last time the US had two carriers in the South China Sea

[GulfCoast66]

33. Not by all of us. It was one of the few Obama policies trump did not ditch.

[tinymontgomery]

35. Conducting Freedom of Navigation Exercises is important

If a neighbor builds a fence into your property by say 20 ft and you say nothing
for 20 years and then tell them to move it they can claim “adverse possession”
and not return it to you. The same is idea is with Freedom of Navigation,
if no county’s ships pass through certain areas for a long period of time then
that country can claim that area of the ocean. Way back in the 80’s the ship
I was on ran a Freedom of Navigation exercise through the Gulf of Sidra which Libya claimed the whole gulf was
their’s.

[soryang]

36. it's not about surface passage

it's about the right to the economic exploitation of the sea bed and fisheries.

[tinymontgomery]

37. It is also about surface passage

What is happening in the South China sea is China trying to cut off
the sea lanes of communication. We have a 12 mile territorial limit for transversing our coast
but a 200 mile fishing limit.

China by international law has a 12 mile territorial limit, their trying to claim the whole
south china sea as theirs. It’s like Mexico trying to claim the whole Gulf of Mexico because it is called
the Gulf of Mexico.

The Declaration of the People's Republic of China on the Territorial Sea in 1958 affirms that China's land territory includes the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands and the Nansha Islands, and that the rule of 12 nautical miles of the territorial Sea applies to the above-mentioned Islands.

[soryang]

38. no one has interfered with surface passage

it's about exploitation of the EEZ. The Chinese EEZ claims predate the UNCLOS. Even under the UNCLOS how are the Paracels not the basis for a Chinese EEZ claim in the South China Sea? The Chinese claim to an Extensive EEZ in the Spratly's is based upon China's longstanding territorial claim to Taiping Island.

This is really what it's about for the US:

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration,
the SCS contains about 11 billion barrels of oil rated as
proved or probable reserves—a level similar to the amount
of proved oil reserves in Mexico—and 190 trillion cubic
feet of natural gas. The SCS also contains significant fish
stocks, coral, and other undersea resources.

Also the ASEAN countries have concluded an agreement to negotiate their pending EEZ claims among themselves. This actually is a parallel authority which precludes forced arbitration under UNCLOS.

[tinymontgomery]

39. At what point have we attempted to exploit

the resources in that area? As reported in the article "China has also been angered by U.S. warships sailing through the Taiwan Strait, including one last week, also the first such operation under the Biden administration." They are attempting to control all the sea lanes in that area, along with the skies. Remember the air collusion with the EP-3 and the Chinese fighter. There are some dangerous maneuvers taking place with military assets but there always has been and will be continued, just have to hope cooler heads prevail when it it is really needed such as during the Cuban missile crisis.

I will agree that in certain areas that exploration of resources also come into play.

[soryang]

40. It's about the oil and gas

I just picked out two examples here. I'm sure there are more.

Exxon's South China Sea oil project tests Chinese influence

SINGAPORE (Bloomberg) - An Exxon Mobil oil and gas project off the coast of Vietnam is becoming a test of Beijing’s growing power in the South China Sea.

Vietnam’s foreign ministry this month sought to shoot down rampant speculation that Exxon will sell its 64% stake in the country’s largest offshore energy project Ca Voi Xanh, or Blue Whale, a joint venture with state-owned Vietnam Oil & Gas Group some 80 kilometers (50 miles) from the coast of Danang. While the project sits just outside of China’s claims in a nine-dash map of the waters, it would tap the same basin that Beijing is seeking to develop.

Vietnam has become increasingly isolated in its efforts to push back against China, which is nearing a deal with the Philippines for joint energy exploration in a contested area of the sea and just set up one-on-one talks with Malaysia to settle disputes in the waters. At stake are unexploited hydrocarbon resources the U.S. says could be worth $2.5 trillion.

...


https://www.worldoil.com/news/2019/9/23/exxon-s-south-china-sea-oil-project-tests-chinese-influence

U.S. sanctions China’s CNOOC on drilling in disputed South China Sea

CNOOC has been at the center of territorial disputes in the South China Sea since 2012, when it invited foreign drillers to explore blocks off Vietnam that Hanoi’s leaders had already awarded to companies including Exxon Mobil and OAO Gazprom. In 2014, the countries traded accusations that each other’s boats had rammed vessels, including around a CNOOC oil rig near the Paracel Islands.

The Philippines in October resumed oil exploration in the South China Sea for the first time since 2015, when the nation filed a case with the Permanent Court of Arbitration over the disputed waters. The resumption came after Manila and Beijing reached a framework agreement for joint exploration. Philippine firm PXP Energy Corp. has said it’s in talks with CNOOC for such a partnership.

https://www.worldoil.com/news/2020/11/30/us-sanctions-china-s-cnooc-on-drilling-in-disputed-south-china-sea

Military vessels and aircraft can always expect to encounter the armed forces of the ADIZ, EEZ, or contiguous zone state especially when intentionally entering the contiguous zone. I know that Chinese aircraft occasionally enter the ADIZ of S.Korea or Taiwan, without giving notice and it always referred to in the western media as some form of an "airspace incursion" or implied military aggression but when the US does it, it's under the rules of international law. (When i do it it's love, when you do it, it's adultery). As far as the relevant nation wanting to have some supervision of the use of pipelines or the passage of nuclear powered vessels or hazardous cargo in its EEZ, this doesn't seem unreasonable either.

One can make the case that military aircraft should be able to have free passage right up to the twelve mile limit, which is what the western powers do. I have read scores of reports of US military aircraft operating in the Chinese littoral in the East China Sea and South China Sea in the last few years WITHOUT incident. The Tufts article linked to here,* reports on about a half dozen incidents of what military flyers call "thumping" of US aircraft by Chinese interceptors over roughly a twenty year period. Admittedly it's a dangerous practice.


*Military Activities in an Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) https://sites.tufts.edu/lawofthesea/chapter-4/


The US position on FON is an advocacy position based upon the greatest extension of US national interests. The Chinese claims represent the greatest extension of Chinese historic national, economic, and military interests as well. FON itself except insofar as it affects core national security interests of China such as in US military operations in the contiguous zone of Hainan, or of the mainland, is not the main issue. The main issue concerns the EEZ claims of China associated with the various island groups. Likewise, the artificial islands confrontations are simply a wedge issue to shoehorn the US Navy into the claims of other states in the region to competing or overlapping EEZs. Other than for Japan and Australia, it isn't clear how welcome these US unnecessary provocations are. The US military flyovers and encroachments within twelve miles of artificial islands are going to provoke a military response from China, whether they are technically legal or not.