Former DC police chief says Adam Toledo shooting 'was reasonable'

[DonViejo]

Source: The Hill


BY LEXI LONAS - 04/16/21 10:03 AM EDT

Former D.C. Police Chief Charles Ramsey told CNN’s Anderson Cooper that the shooting of 13-year-old Adam Toledo “was reasonable.”

“Tragic as it was, the shooting was reasonable,” said Ramsey, who was also the Philadelphia Police commissioner and currently serves as CNN’s law enforcement analyst, Mediaite reported.

Video of Toledo’s shooting by a Chicago police officer was released on Thursday and caused backlash, with people saying it was another unreasonable police shooting.

However, Ramsey said after reviewing all the footage from the Civilian Office of Police Accountability he believes the officer was justified in his actions.

Read more: https://thehill.com/homenews/media/548632-former-dc-police-chief-says-adam-toledo-shooting-was-reasonable

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[hlthe2b]

1. Has it occurred to him the inevitable result of declaring shooting defendants with arms in the air

while surrendering, "reasonable" is that there will be more and more who will NOT surrender and thus more police shootings? Beyond the horror of shooting adolescent boys, (and yes, I do understand the nature of the split-second decision for police), but if faced with a high likelihood of being killed regardless of what you do, why would any male POC do anything but flee and/or fight?

Something has to change. As I've commented before, after a string of attacks (rapes, at least one murder) on women driving home alone at night several years ago and occurring across the country--by police and police copycats-- I too would be very wary of being stopped and might well drive on to a well-lit space, lock the doors and demand to confirm a badge number with police dispatch. And that is what I'd tell younger women today as well. I can't imagine what one SHOULD tell a young POC to do today.

I'm just angry. And it doesn't matter how experienced the DC Cop being interviewed, there is far more to be said on that score and far more that needs to be done. Such "pat" responses are no longer appropriate, even if the cop involved was following "protocol."

[Escurumbele]

12. The first thing that MUST change is to stop police from shooting to kill

Shoot to temporarily disable the suspect, if in fact it requires that you shoot the suspect, but why always shoot to kill? These people go to the shooting range, they can aim lower.

What would have happened if the policeman had shot Toledo on the leg? Toledo would have fallen to the ground with an injured leg, but he would be alive today.

To me, that is the first thing that needs to happen. This hunger to kill must change.

[stopdiggin]

44. this 'aim lower, hit a leg' has been refuted

again and again and again. I'm not going to waste my breath laying it out one more time -- except to say that people stop listening as soon as a useless tired trope is trotted out. At this point it's about as helpful as a suggestion that U.S. police ought to be like English bobbies, and not carry guns. Yeah, fine.
----- -----

[TheRickles]

60. Please take the time to provide a link. Not everyone here is as well-informed as you. Thanks.

[stopdiggin]

68. No. It's been discussed repeatedly and endlessly. (nt)

[NickB79]

98. The same cops who can empty a magazine and miss a 12" target at 30 ft

Are suddenly going to start making precision shots?

These aren't SEALS that train religiously with their weapons. They're cops that hit the range a few hours a year on average.

The irony is that the only way we get cops to start shooting like Special Forces, is to treat them more like military, which we all agree is how we got here in the first place.

[aggiesal]

52. The only way to protect yourself now is to turn your back and raise your hands ...

if the police still shoot and kill, then it could only be considered an execution.

[LiberalFighter]

91. So called police experts like him need to be kept off the airwave.

[ExciteBike66]

2. "Put your hands up!"... BANG... "He moved his hands so I shot him"...

[Haggard Celine]

3. Seemed reasonable to me as well,

although it's always a shame to see someone die in confrontations with the police, especially a child. But the boy had a gun and the cop gave him aid right after he shot him. It's certainly reasonable to see why the cop was threatened and felt his life was in danger. This shooting is not so much similar to others in which unarmed people were shot or knelt on or what have you.

[hlthe2b]

4. He was not armed when his hands were in the air. Split second decision, I can appreciate, but your

comment about this boy being armed at the moment when shot is grotesquely wrong.

[Ferrets are Cool]

5. This x 1000

[Haggard Celine]

6. What I meant is that he was armed during the confrontation.

I couldn't see much from the video I saw, but I read that he told the boy once to drop it and he didn't and he told him again and the boy did. What probably happened is that when the boy flinched to drop the gun, the cop saw the move as threatening and fired. Did the cop ultimately make a mistake in shooting the kid? Sure. Was this kid innocent like some of the others who have been killed in recent times? No.

[hlthe2b]

8. I've watched that video repeatedly on nothing more than a typical resolution laptop. YOU CAN see the

boy's hands clearly in the air, delineated, holding NOTHING.

You are seeing what it appears you want to see. Your hypothesis"story" of what occurred seems to me to clearly confirm your bias. Even if a gun were seen in the moments preceding his surrender, arms, and hands in the air, clearly sans gun, this was not shooting of an "armed," defendant. A shooting of a surrendering PREVIOUSLY (NOT currently) armed defendant is not the same.

[Miguelito Loveless]

10. So, you are reading what the police claim and accepting it

because if there is one things we have learned in the course of hundreds of shooting is that the police never lie, or plant weapons.

"Was this kid innocent like some of the others who have been killed in recent times? No."

Even *IF* he had a gun, he complied with instructions. His hands were empty when raised. They murdered him on the spot.

Disobey the police and die. Obey the police and die.

I hope you never find your own innocence judged in such a stark light.

[Dustlawyer]

23. I urge everyone to go on a "ride-a-long" with a cop a few times, I have.

It is a difficult job done without the luxury of slow motion and video playback. Sometimes there are tragic results like this one. We cannot say that every single incident is the result of murderous intent. The cop is running down a dark alley chasing someone with a gun. He had a split second decision and screwed up. If he was like the other high profile shootings he would not have rendered aid and would have stood there watching the kid die.

Police departments have gotten out of control. I asked the cop I rode with about the blue line and his co-workers. He acknowledged clicks in the departments where you have the power trippers, roid rangers, and guys like him who just do the job. He lamented that his profession attracts these individuals for the power it gives them. He acknowledges that there are not many like him and the majority need to go. The culture is toxic.

He says that any cop who bucks the blue line risks his own life, that of his family, and his career. He said most have to move out of town for their safety. As a patrol Sargent he warned all of the cops under him that he would not stand for any civil rights violations on his watch. He is happily retired now.

[Haggard Celine]

42. Yes, it's a very challenging job.

I couldn't do it. I'm physically incapable of doing it now, but I don't think I would ever have been right for that job. It's so hard on a person's mental health. And you have a host of critics all the time. Some people want to blame the cops for everything wrong; others like to defend them at every turn. I think it's best to judge each situation separately.

Unless you're one of the people who wants to abolish the police, which would cause all sorts of problems, you have to accept the fact that we have flawed people doing a difficult job that often depends upon split-second decisions. Maybe one day we'll have a better way of keeping order, but until then, we're unfortunately going to see people making mistakes that cost lives. Some of those deaths will be because of police malice or negligence, but many deaths will be justifiable results of our imperfect system.

[hlthe2b]

63. As have I & have kept in touch with a few in leadership,whom I've worked with on community projects.

They are not among those who defend many of the "standard" practices that permeate law enforcement training today. They have seen what happens with the "us versus them" attitudes instilled in departments throughout the country and are probably as fed up as the majority on this thread at the "bad apples."

[aggiesal]

59. Sorry that is not what happened ...

Watch the video, it is clear as day, although it was 2:30am.

The policeman was chasing him, telling him to stop.
When he stopped with his back turned, he tossed the gun away.
When the policeman finally arrived, Adam Toledo turned around,
with his hands empty. The cop then told him to put his hands up
which Toledo did, and was shot instantly.

We was never told to drop the gun, not even once, much less twice.

[StarfishSaver]

82. It doesn't matter if he was previously armed

The point of telling someone to put their hands in the air is to get their hands in view to see whether they have a weapon and even if they do have a weapon, to make it less likely for them to use it. Putting one's hands in the air is an affirmative act of surrender and is done precisely so they will not get shot.

Once a cop tells someone to put their hands in the air, he can no longer use the excuse that he had to shoot them because they were armed. He certainly can't claim that the fact they were armed before he told them to put their arms up justifies you shooting them the second they comply with the order.

Claiming the cop was justified in shooting that boy because he had reason to think hr had a gun before he put his hands in the air is pure bullshit.

[greenjar_01]

14. His dumping of the gun behind the fence a second prior was obviously furtive

The police officer should not have shot so quickly, but this argument that "he did not have a gun at the moment he was shot" is a little disingenuous. He had a gun in his hand literally one to two seconds prior, which he dumped behind the fence and then turned with his hands up. Even if he had simply dropped the gun while running he would have been in less danger. It was the movement of placing his hand behind the fence the hide the firearm followed immediately by bringing his hand to the other side of the fence that set this officer off.

I don't know if it was completely reasonable (he should actually check his hands before shooting), but I have some sense of why, when you see he has something in his right hand (he did, in fact, have a firearm in his right hand while running away) and then he puts that hand out of sight (behind the fence) and then he comes out from behind the fence with his hand...

The strobe was stupid, and the cop was probably rash, but that kid had a gun, they had been shooting the gun, and the gun was in his hand less than one-three seconds before the cop shot him. Let's be honest about what happened here.

[hlthe2b]

17. You are arguing a compliant unarmed, surrendering assailant FOLLOWING ORDERS can be shot regardless.

that is beyond horrific. THAT IS INTENTIONAL MURDER. Cops get by with it under the "split-second" excuse. But that is an excuse in many cases for a decision made PRIOR that precludes any opportunity for the assailant to give themselves up and yes, it is murder.

[greenjar_01]

20. Yeah, I mean, I get your point

I do, however, think there's a difference in practice between simply dropping a gun and secreting the gun and flashing your hand out from where you secreted it. I don't think it's an unreasonable distinction. I'm a reasonable person who rarely sides with police in these cases. I'm also literally a Chicago resident. So, good luck with the jury on this one.

[hlthe2b]

22. As you well know, juries have sided with police--even in overtly unjust cases-- for decades...

It is a dangerous job and many (not all) deserve our deep respect. But the pile-on of recent aggregious cases shows just how overreaching is that benefit-of-the-doubt as well as the assumptions that training and policy have been based for those decades. I wouldn't be so sure that juries are not likewise taking note.

[greenjar_01]

26. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of people who

could serve on Chicago and/or Cook County juries who see this the way I see it. Adam Toledo should be alive. The cop involved should have been less on the trigger.

But Adam Toledo had been firing or with somebody firing at cars minutes before and 1) clearly had a firearm 2) ran to a hole in a fence and dumped the firearm behind a screened area 3) moved his hand from behind that screen (the fence) as he turned.

[hlthe2b]

30. Just because you agree with blaming the victim for his own homicide doesn't mean it is just nor

free of racism when applied by either cops or juries.

[greenjar_01]

33. Ok

[Watchfoxheadexplodes]

35. A lot get your points

Other than the "all cops murder" crowd.

[hlthe2b]

36. You make it an all-COPS murder crowd which it is NOT. What it is is a crowd asking for justice

less knee-jerk benefit-of-the-doubt when we see a series of bad cops in action--no matter what (hopefully small, limited) percent of the national force they may represent.

And your blanket insinuation that all DUers are anti-cop is not accurate. How is it any better than what the R's try to do to Dems prior to any election? It isn't true.

[Voltaire2]

73. ah so shooting a clearly unarmed child surrendering with his hands up is ok

and anyone who says different is in the "all cops murder" crowd.

Got it.

By the way the actual phrase is "All Cops Are Bad". The reason why ACAB is that in this country police culture, at least in almost all metro regions, quickly weeds out the cops who don't go along with the current cop culture, and that current cop culture is, quite simply, fascist.

[LanternWaste]

88. No, that's not really "all you're saying." At all.

[Fla Dem]

79. +1000

[Miguelito Loveless]

7. Here's the lesson learned by the community

Run from the police. Always. They will murder you without compunction, even when you do what they say. Another lesson some in the community will ponder is whether it makes sense to, if armed, shoot first, then run, since you are almost certainly dead (whether shot, beaten, or choked) by virtue of having been stopped.

[Haggard Celine]

9. Well thankfully most 13 year old boys aren't running around

with guns getting in confrontations with police in the middle of the night. Most men aren't, either. The cop made a mistake, but the boy mostly brought this on himself.

[Miguelito Loveless]

11. "Freeze!" Cop commands

Boy stops.

Cop: "Turn around and show me your fucking hands!

Boy turns around raises empty hands.

Cop shoots him dead.

How dare that boy obey police orders. He brought his execution on himself.

[Haggard Celine]

15. I honestly couldn't tell if the kid dropped the gun before

he put is hands in the air or not. It is apparent that the kid did drop the gun before he was shot, however. The cop made a mistake, but it's hard to see at night and shadows can make things appear to be there that aren't. He was working within the parameters of his job; he didn't shoot the kid for sport or anything. The boy did put his own life in jeopardy by running around with a gun in the middle of the night. He shares most of the blame for his own death.

[Miguelito Loveless]

48. Weird how cops seem to make mistakes all the time,

or more correctly, selectively make mistakes. "Oh, I thought he had a gun. Oh. I thought his wallet was a gun. Oh, I thought the drink was gun. Oh, I thought I had my taser, not my gun. Oh, I thought he was resisting arrest." Coincidentally, I am sure, these mistakes seem to be far more prevalent when dealing with people of the non-Causcasian persuasion. Funny that.

They also seem to live in fear all the time. They are always fearing for their lives despite the fact that statistically, their chances of being shot on the job are pretty slim.

Perhaps all of these mistake-prone and fearful people are not cut out for police work. Perhaps they should not have been hired in the first place?

"The boy did put his own life in jeopardy by running around with a gun in the middle of the night. He shares most of the blame for his own death."

Of course.

But somehow, I don't think that would be your opinion if it were your child lying dead on the ground.

[Chakaconcarne]

70. I completely agree with you and most jurors will as well.

This was a very unfortunate situation.. The video is grainy, none of us were there.... most of us don't have careers where we have to make split second, life and death decisions.

The teen was firing the weapon previously. The officer knew he had a gun. The teen obviously was trying to hide the fact he still had the gun, likely pitching it behind the fence in a way the officer could not tell whether he still had it or not...

"In the moment before the shooting, Adam can be seen holding what appears to be a gun behind his back, which he drops behind a wooden fence just before he raises his hands, according to an analysis of the police videos by The New York Times.

In one of the videos, the officer yelled at him to stop. “Stop right now!” the officer screams while cursing, telling him to drop his gun. “Hands. Show me your hands. Drop it. Drop it.”

As Adam turned and lifted his hands, the officer opened fire, striking him once in the chest. The officer can be seen administering CPR on Adam and telling him to “stay with me” as blood poured out of his mouth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/16/us/adam-toledo-chicago-police-shooting.html

IMO, this does not point to a rogue cop scenario..... Not every cop is bad (not all are good) and NONE of us would be 100% accurate in our decision making if we were placed in these scenarios. I'm pretty sure of it.

Emotions from previous incidents are clouding judgement of this one. That is my opinion.

[Haggard Celine]

72. I agree.

We've seen so many instances lately where cops have been rash or malevolent that some people want to see this case in the same light as the others. We have to look at each case separately. It's one thing to look at cases over all and discuss national trends in policing or cultures in particular departments, but we can't automatically assign blame to someone based on the findings of another case. It's as unfair to treat every cop the same as it is to treat every suspect the same.

[orleans]

90. the gun was dropped/tossed and the kid turned around empty handed n/t

[greenjar_01]

16. You missed a few steps

Kid runs, holding a firearm in his right hand.

Cop: Stop right fucking now

Kid runs to fence opening

Cop: Show me your fucking hands

Kid puts his hand holding the firearm behind the fence opening and drops gun behind the fence

Cop: Hands up!

Kid quickly moves his hand from behind the fence putting it up.

Cop shoots him dead.

If this kid drops the gun while he's running, he's sitting in juvie now looking forward to a court date.

[hlthe2b]

19. AND YOU MISS THE IMPORTANT POINT. The assailant WAS COMPLYING with orders and holding nothing in

raised hands at the time of the shooting. The decision to shoot was apparently made PRIOR to that" split-second," REGARDLESS of what the defendant did--regardless of compliance or not.

[greenjar_01]

21. He was holding a gun behind a screen (the fence) one second before he was shot

Did the cop act rashly? Yes. Was the strobe a stupid add-on technology that contributed to this death? Yes. Is it completely incomprehensible that this kid, who was literally holding a gun a second or two before he was shot and flashed his hand out from behind where he was dumping it, was shot. No, it's not. Sorry.

[hlthe2b]

25. Again, you argue against giving previously armed assailants ANY opportunity to peacefully surrender

So, in essence, you want to give cops a license to murder 13-year-old kids. Judge, jury, prosecutor, and executioner in one single angry and often racist package.

[greenjar_01]

31. I am not

In fact I say above that had he dropped the gun while running any shooting by the police officer would be obviously criminal. Indeed, nearly any other situation or scenario for him dropping this weapon would have put the shooting on the cop in my view. But what did he do? He hid the gun behind a screened area and flashed his hand out from behind that screened area. It's literally the most dangerous way that he could have given up this firearm.

[hlthe2b]

27. His hands were in the air following instructions with NO gun. The decision to kill him was apparent

and made BEFORE that split second. It is intentional homicide, even if made under the duress of the chase and even if fear-laden jurors may well give him benefit-of-the-doubt.

[greenjar_01]

32. Disagree

This was a second or two at most. I think the strobe is a big part of it, but calling this intentional murder is just silly.

[hlthe2b]

34. Shooting a complying assailant in the process of giving up, arms and empty hands clearly in air is

an intentional act. They are taught to shoot to kill and that is exactly what happened. It is intentional homicide, even if at worse they'd claim negligent homicide or nothing. Might the cop have panicked? Sure. Obviously and it is still negligent homicide because he won't admit to himself--nor will his colleagues that the decision to shoot was made BEFORE the instruction to surrender was made, making it quite INTENTIONAL. A jury can't determine with certainty that so they won't. But this is what happens when we systemically train cops that every assailant situation is "kill or be killed." Once taught that they react on instinct. The decision was made long before.

[greenjar_01]

41. Yeah, we disagree on this and I've made my position clear

I don't find your claim that he made his decision to shoot before Toledo flashed his hand out from behind that hidden area ot be compelling at all. You don't find my position compelling. Fine. Go with God, friend.

[Miguelito Loveless]

49. The decision was made decades ago,

at least a century and a half. If the skin is dark, my gun will bark. It is an ingrained, subconscious decision. Dark-skinned people are dangerous. White people are not. This is why cops kill Blacks at 3 times the rate of Whites.

[greenjar_01]

50. There is, no doubt, a wide web of causes that led to this shooting

Colonialism, racism, the culture of policing, redlining in Chicago, US foreign policy, gun manufacturer lobbying, COVID-19, urban architecture, segregation, police hiring procedures, US media cultures. There's a wide web of mutuality that leads to this shooting. No question. I'd go further back than 150 years, and continue to the minutes and seconds and microseconds before the shooting.

[Miguelito Loveless]

56. But a 13 year-old child

raised in the legacy of 400+ years of oppression, violence, and fear, is at fault for fearing the police and running from them. He is at fault because he possessed a gun, a object endemic in this country, living virtually caged in specific communities, terrorized by the police under color of law, economically exploited, undereducated by a system that is deliberately underfunded, and viciously attacked by the government when they DARE express their displeasure in a manner deemed unlawful by their oppressors.

[greenjar_01]

58. Seems much more complicated than that, though

[Voltaire2]

74. thank you.

I could be having this same argument over in right wing world. It is simply stunning that we are having it here.

[Miguelito Loveless]

87. I am shocked and utternly disheartened

to see police apologists here. How many people do the police have to murder, before they stop siding with police? How many innocent people do they have to frame? How many lies do they have to tell? How many people do they have to beat to a bloody pulp?

[LudwigPastorius]

100. I'd agree that the strobe light use by the cop was stupid and contributed to his shooting the kid.

Excerpt from a "Police Magazine" article:

Tactical Concerns

When deployed without the benefits of an accompanying constant light (cover officer), a strobe light may make the user experience an inability to see or recognize subtle/deliberate slow movements made by the suspect.

[Miguelito Loveless]

45. You've convinced me

Crimes:

Running from police - Penalty: Execution
Having a gun - Penalty: Execution
Obeying police commands - Penalty: Execution
Passing a suspected $20 bill - Penalty: Execution
Being in your own home asleep - Penalty: Execution
Driving your brand new car - Penalty: Severe beating
Having an expired tag - Penalty: Execution
Telling a policeman you have a licensed firearm in your glove compartment with your registration, then opening the glove compartment at policeman's command - Penalty: Execution

OK, cool. Those are the crimes, and the penalties. My question is, when do they start applying to white people? Because I have watched numerous confrontations with armed White people, who openly, viciously resisted arrest, assaulted the police with murderous intent, and yet they are still breathing. The numbers show the police murder non-Whites out of proportion to population distribution. We know for a fact that police departments are infiltrated by Nazis, Klansmen, insurrectionists and White nationalists. The police are armed better than some national armies. We have known this my entire life, as it has been documented over and over again, but it never changes. People continue to die, the innocent continue to be incarcerated, the police remain untouchable because this nation has a fetish for uniforms.

So miss me on any further apologist narrative. I have had personal dealing with the police in the many decades of my life, as a VICTIM of crime, including police crime, and I know from that personal experience that the police are dishonest, racist, and arrogant. And yes, I am tarring the whole with the same brush, because even the "innocent" cops know who the bad cops are and keep their mouth shut.

"Policing" as an institution in this country is corrupted beyond redemption, and must be reformed from the ground up, rooting out bad cops without mercy.

[greenjar_01]

46. My comments are about this specific case

Thanks for your thoughtful response, though.

[Voltaire2]

75. of course, because there is absolutely no context to this whatsoever.

[greenjar_01]

77. Context is important

So are particulars.

[Kammer]

38. To me as well

2:30 in the morning, police responding to multiple gun shots. Upon arrival the officer gives chase to someone with a gun. The suspect, gun in hand, goes toward a fence in an attempt to hide the gun. He turned rapidly to the officer. According to the time stamp he had possession of the gun .9 second before the officer fired. As a matter of law he will not and should not be charged. The kid should have just dropped the gun and not tried to hide it and turn rapidly to the officer. Such a tragedy but no crime by police in this case.

[dalton99a]

13. The cop didn't even look at the kid's hands - they were EMPTY.

[NH Ethylene]

18. I just saw the video once, but was startled at how fast the boy turned around and put his hands up.

It might be reasonable for the police to think he was turning around to shoot at them, but I'd have to watch it a few more times.

Fleeing people should clearly be told to put their hands up first, then turn around slowly.

[Marthe48]

24. Won't matter

How many police victims in the last decade were trying to comply and were given zero seconds? Whatever the teen was doing was stressing him. Whatever the cop was doing was stressing him. None of the victims of these shootings would be able to move fast or slow, right or wrong, before the cop pulls the trigger. And unfortunately, it seems like the cop involved is already inclined to shoot to kill.

[NH Ethylene]

29. That's totally true. They likely were itching to shoot no matter what.

Last edited Fri Apr 16, 2021, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

On edit, it's not fair to the cop to make the assumption that he's racist and eager to kill. We've just seen so many of those; It's too easy to prejudge.

[sarisataka]

37. The cop only saw it once

And without the advantage of a still photo to study.

I heard the the total time was about .8 seconds that they were at the gap in the fence. In that fraction the kid stopped, pulled the gun, tossed it behind the fence and turned with his hands up. That was a lot happening in less than a second that the cop had to decide to shoot or risk being shot. Also the strobe light meant half of the encounter happened in the dark.

BUT

The boy did do exactly what he was told and turned showing his empty hands. He clearly was unarmed when shot.

I can see both sides and would hate to be on the grand jury for this one. I think I would have to vote for charges.

While understanding the stress of facing a potentially armed person and the speed with which everything happened, I think there is a duty to take another fraction of a second to confirm if the suspect has complied with instructions before firing.

[greenjar_01]

43. I'm exactly where you are on this but would probably vote not to charge

Very good description of the situation.

[twodogsbarking]

28. Reasonable in America

to be threatened by a 13 yo with his hands in the air. I get it.

[Devil Child]

39. Reasonable to anyone who isn't a member of the ACAB outrage brigade n/t

[ForgoTheConsequence]

53. Rather the ACAB brigade than the Blue Lives Matter modern day KKK.

...

[ForgoTheConsequence]

62. "Hood"

Interesting use of coded language toward a person of color.

[Devil Child]

64. Happy to help you update your case file there Sherlock n/t

[ForgoTheConsequence]

67. I'm sure you are.

Keep blowing that dog whistle.

[NH Ethylene]

95. What does ACAB stand for? n/t

[Danmel]

101. All cops are bastards

[NH Ethylene]

102. Ohh. Thanks. Mysterious acronyms drive me crazy! n/t

[seta1950]

40. How

Is the shooting of a 13 year old child , reasonable😤 how😤

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

47. Which brings up the old saw

Better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and prove it.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

51. The amount of support for the killing of a brown child here is sickening.

I feel like I'm on Stormfront.

[Arazi]

65. +1 million. Spent my day off on DU with this topic and it is disgusting

[Humanist_Activist]

71. Another dead brown kid means nothing to them.

Wouldn't be surprised if they celebrate it.

[orleans]

92. ...

[Fla Dem]

54. Maybe justified in old, racist, police policies. But not today.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

69. Justified on this board also.

When pretty much all Republicans support this use of force and a good chunk of liberals, it's no wonder things never change.

[IronLionZion]

57. Amazing how this rarely happens to heavily armed white guys

who often boast openly about being armed to the teeth and are hostile to agents of the state.

[MichMan]

61. Reasonable in America for a 13 yr old to be out on the streets with a gun at 2:30 am ?

My parents sure in hell wouldn't have allowed it and my friends with kids don't allow it either.

[AZLD4Candidate]

76. Good for you. Let's examine this kid's life and see if the street was safer than home

One huge logical fallacy is "well, that never happened to me because. . ." You aren't this CHILD.

13 year old is a CHILD. Child killing has no defense.

[Devil Child]

81. A child Latin King with street name "lil homicide" armed with a handgun and shooting at cars at 2am

Might want to at least give a courtesy glance towards the lil homicide's household in-between all the ACABing if you really want to stop this shit from happening in the future.

[AZLD4Candidate]

84. Children are children. As a schoolteacher, I don't care.

Children are children.

If you are okay with children been shot and killed in the street, I pity you. I guess Tamir Rice and Trayvon Martin. . .why am I wasting my time?

[MarcA]

66. He obeyed what the officer ordered and was killed. n/t

[COL Mustard]

78. Shooting Some Of The Traitors On 1/6 Would Have Been Reasonable

I don't know the details of this tragedy, but it doesn't sound reasonable to me.

[joetheman]

80. Two Words: KYLE RITTENHOUSE

[AZLD4Candidate]

85. See response #81

[ForgoTheConsequence]

96. Yes it sounds like the system failed him.

Meanwhile, Rittenhouse is a spoiled little white racist who was treated with kid gloves. What's your point?

[AZLD4Candidate]

97. The attitudes and the thinking are "my point."

One was 17 and killing people. One was 13 with his hands up.

One didn't have a nickname. . .one did (apparently).

One is from a wealthy part of town. One isn't.

My point is these things happen because not only are black and minority neighbors over-policed by people who already have an us v. them mentality, but when a 13 year old kid is killed by police in a "bad" (minority or poor) part of town, we start looking for reasons to blame the victim and excuse the child killer or out right murderer, or in the case of Kenosha, attempted murderer.

Post #81 shows that.

This is me agreeing with you. There was no need to respond with anger or aggression towards me if that was your intention.

[madville]

83. It depends how the video is shown

Some media outlets only show the video in slow motion or frame by frame which makes it look like the officer had seconds to react.

Watching it in real time, the officer had to guess if the suspect would still have the gun in his hand as he turned around quickly. In real time it’s a no win situation for the officer, hesitate a fraction of a second and risk getting shot by an suspect you reasonably knew to be armed.

[NH Ethylene]

94. I agree.

And the way the boy pulled his right arm out from behind him as he turned around would have looked like he was preparing to shoot, just for a millisecond, and then he raised arms.

It looks like the cop shot in a reaction to that instant, but due to reaction time it came out just as the kid's arms were raised.

Really tragic.

[cstanleytech]

86. Only thing that I think might be unreasonable in this case honestly is

that a 13 year old was able to get ahold of a gun.
If that is not proof that we have way to many guns in this country then I do not know what else will prove it.

[hamsterjill]

103. Good post.

The beginning of this tragedy goes WAY back beyond the few seconds when this child was shot.

[BeyondGeography]

89. Seems to me Ramsey's POV

should be getting a little more airtime in this thread:

“I know right now everybody’s, you know, blood in the water about policing. And I have not hesitated to speak up whenever officers inappropriately use force of any kind. This ain’t one of those cases. I don’t know how many people have ever chased an armed person down an alley at night. I have and I know what it’s like, believe me,” Ramsey said.

[Happy Hoosier]

106. IT'S. YOUR. FUCKING. JOB.

I'm sick of this. Being afraid is not an excuse for an unjustified shoot. It's the job. He ordered the kid to stop. He did. He ordered the kid to drop the weapon. He did. The kid raised his hands. He was shot and killed anyway.

[BeyondGeography]

107. With respect

You might try showing some to someone who has actually done the fucking job.

[Happy Hoosier]

105. So... don't bother dropping the weapon and raising your hands....

Because you'll still get shot.

Brilliant.