Grizzly bear kills guide just outside Yellowstone National Park
Source: CBS
A Montana backcountry guide has died after he was mauled by a large grizzly bear that was probably defending a nearby moose carcass just outside Yellowstone National Park, officials said Monday.
Charles "Carl" Mock, 40, who lived in the park gateway community of West Yellowstone, died Saturday, two days after he was attacked while fishing alone in a forested area along the Madison River several miles north of West Yellowstone, Gallatin County Sheriff's Office spokesperson Christine Koosman said.
The male bear, which weighed at least 420 pounds, was later shot and killed when it charged wildlife workers investigating the attack, officials said in a statement.
The moose carcass was found about 50 yards from the site of the attack, said Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks spokesperson Morgan Jacobsen.
Read more: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/grizzly-bear-attack-yellowstone-kills-backcountry-guide/
Because bear acts like a bear, he must die.
I hate my species....
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Coventina
(27,172 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(12,429 posts)it's fate was sealed.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)MarineCombatEngineer
(12,429 posts)IMHO, this was a tragedy all around, but it was the correct decision.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Obviously, neither you nor I was there, so neither of us can gauge how dangerous the encounter was.
But THEY came looking for HIM. They were the aggressors in the situation.
I'm always going to take the side of the animal. Always.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,429 posts)but, as you said, neither of us were there, there may be more to this story than we've gotten so far.
Please have a good afternoon, which it is due to the murderer Chauvin, now convicted
Coventina
(27,172 posts)DenaliDemocrat
(1,476 posts)I have. There is NO TIME to sort things out. Dont talk like you know how you would react unless you have been there.
In my case, I TRIED to shoot the bear, but I was too slow. The bear veered at the last second. You dont stand there and try to discern if its a real or false charge.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Probably doable.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,339 posts)ToxMarz
(2,169 posts)after they killed the attacking bear.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)if it hadn't been the one bear in a million that charged a group of people. Even when they wake up hungry and grouchy in spring, they prefer to avoid us unless we're threatening their young or their first meal.
That's hy people outside the city here in NM need long guns, hunting rifles or shotguns, with 2 rounds. The first is a warning shot (which usually does the trick) and the second is for that one bear in a million who charges. We're too far south for grizzlies, but the local brown bears can do a number on humans who get in their way.
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)(before he was ultimately killed by a bear) but they amazingly demonstrate how most bears are perfectly willing to tolerate humans.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Really slowly.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Bears in the lower 48 eat far less meat and tend to be far less aggressive towards humans
Warpy
(111,339 posts)I vaguely remember his stuff.
Taming bears from tiny cubs has a long tradition in eastern Europe, with varying levels of success.
Unless we're presenting them with a meal they don't have to work too hard to eat, they'll avoid us.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)The bottom line is that Timothy Treadwell ended up getting eaten. So much for tolerance.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)They are using him as an example of bears being nice when a bear ultimately laid down on him and slowly ate him alive.
Bears are wild and should be left alone not turned into pets like Timothy tried to do.
COL Mustard
(5,923 posts)In Alaska, with his girlfriend?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)2naSalit
(86,776 posts)the game warden's house which is near the campground. I know that area well. Though I am sorry for his demise, he should have known, as a local guide, that fishing alone in spring in bear area is not wise. A tragedy, no doubt for both the victim and the bear, they always get put down when they hurt a human. They should not have done that, I think, because it was protecting it's food not feeding on the human.
DEbluedude
(816 posts)I've fished that portion of the Madison and from what I recall there are plenty of high visibility signs warning of Grizzly Bear activity. It's a shame but it reminds you that even being an experienced guide, you can't let your guard down. Sad story. Definitely tragic.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)It's a popular fishing spot year round. And a good shroomin' place too. He seems to have become complacent, a lot of locals in bear country don't take precautions and even dismiss concerns of black bears being a danger. I have been guilty of it myself but then feel ashamed when I realize how stupid and hypocritical I was. And I have walked up on a griz before, made sure I had bear spray with me every time after that scare.
DEbluedude
(816 posts)We were about 30 yards apart in the river when a huge moose stuck her head through the willows right in front of me. I froze and motioned to my brother and I slowly backtracked to the bank behind me when she dipped into the water. A few seconds later, a calf followed. Anticipating what was next I stayed motionless and watched as a huge bull trailed. I was anxious as shit and just stayed as still as I could. The three of them crossed the river within 15-20 yards of us. It was one of those moments that I recall with wonder. Picturesque. Beautiful. Knowing that nature rules. I've never forgotten that moment. BTW, this was nice to take a trip down memory lane for me today! Sorry about the circumstance though.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Id say the bear must die. Yeah.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Was the wildlife worker supposed to allow the bear to attack him?
Coventina
(27,172 posts)(it can though, and yeah, it was scary I'm sure).
But they were the aggressors, they came into his territory looking for him.
I will always take the side of the animal. Always.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)An investigation is always warranted, they don't just go shoot a bear without trying to find the cause of the altercation. Sows with cubs should not be kiled nor should a bear simply defending itself. The only defenses they have are those they use against we pesky humans who screw up everything and reduce their habitat to tiny strips of land.
I take it you aren't all that familiar with bears and how they are dealt with.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,429 posts)but when it charged the wildlife agents, then it's fate was sealed and I don't blame the wildlife agents in the least.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)He was protecting his food.
MarineCombatEngineer
(12,429 posts)even if I disagree with it.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)EX500rider
(10,856 posts)... sounds like the bear was in human territory.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)EX500rider
(10,856 posts)Coventina
(27,172 posts)Smart campers know how to comport themselves in bear country to avoid unpleasant encounters.
Myself, my friends, and my family have camped in bear country for decades without ever bringing or needing lethal force to do so safely.
It's all about understanding the species you are going to be around and modifying your behavior appropriately. That's why we evolved the big brains, to reason our way wisely, not to get in physical altercations.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I can do nothing but agree with your position. We're the rational species meaning we should accept that animals will act like animals and will as often as not, act on instinct alone. Because they're animals.
As rational humans, we have a responsibility to realize this.
As we further reduce the remaining natural lands, it then becomes wholly our responsibility to be aware of the immediate consequences of these ever-decreasing ecosystems, and respond to these consequences of this reduction in a rational manner.
As ethical humans, we have a responsibility to realize this as well.
James Brabazon wrote "Reverence for Life says that the only thing we are really sure of is that we live and want to go on living. This is something that we share with everything else that lives, from elephants to blades of grassand, of course, every human being. So we are brothers and sisters to all living things, and owe to all of them the same care and respect, that we wish for ourselves."
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)Bears kill lots of animals (did the bear kill the moose?) Do you feel sorry for the animals that bears kill?
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Sure, I feel sorry for animals that are caught as prey.
I also recognize that the natural cycle needs to be kept in balance, and which species has fucked that right up?
PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)not in places where an occasional bear that attacks humans is killed. The only wild bears in cities are in zoos.
Smart bears know not to challenge humans for the title of "top dog". You may kill a few but humans have better weapons at their disposal.
Most bears are smart enough not to attack humans - just watch some of the Timothy Treadwell videos.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)So yeah, bears don't attack humans for the giggles, they are smart that way.
But if a human comes sniffing around it's food, that's a different story. That's an entirely different scenario.
It's the same reason as to why the family dog will bite a toddler that plays with its food bowl.
It's not the dog's fault in that scenario either.
Dream Girl
(5,111 posts)Just charge him and attack cuz protecting his fwood
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)if you don't know how things work in bear country, you can't be expected to understand.
Polybius
(15,476 posts)A growl and standing upright would have scared him off.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)I would have wished the same as you, that a more restrained warning was given.
The problem was the food. He felt his food was being threatened. Bears tend to get unreasonable about that.
Food, and their children.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)StClone
(11,686 posts)Montana has less than a dozen Grizzly caused fatalities in decades! Here in Wisconsin we lose on average nine people a year to White-tailed Deer! That is why we have a season on them.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)How many of the deer survive those?
I am ambivalent about deer hunting.
I'm a vegetarian myself, but I respect those who actually get their hands dirty for their meat.
What I don't like is the excuse that hunting is necessary because otherwise the deer would be over-populated.
Well, deer ARE over-populated, but that's because we foolishly killed all their predators, but ourselves.
So saying we "need" to hunt them is a bit disingenuous. Bring back the large predators, I say.
StClone
(11,686 posts)I am sure you follow the Wolf kills. Pretty sickening here in Wisconsin. Wolves, Puma, Grizzles, Coyotes all work to keep deer in check depending on locality. I grow organic vegetables and deer can be my biggest threat to surviving, right up there with Colorado Potato Beetles, and weather.
All animals need their space. Grizzles are still with us, Wolverines not so much. I mourn the loss of such magnificat animals under any circumstance.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Large predators are incompatible with dense human populations. Deer are overpopulating areas that are in transition from rural to suburban. If you introduce cougars, et al, to suburbia, there will be a death toll in pets and eventually in humans that will not be tolerated.
Could you explain why you think it's better for deer to be killed by cougars and wolves than by humans? Is there some moral angle that I'm missing?
Coventina
(27,172 posts)If we won't do this voluntarily, the planet will figure out a way to do it.
The dramatic decrease in human fertility might be a sign that nature is already starting to cut us down.
And yes, there is definitely a moral angle you are missing. Ecosystems evolved to have wolves and cougars that we eliminated.
Taking them out of the equation has not ended up being a benefit for either humans or deer.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)I will grant that the human species is far too "successful" for its own good or for the health of the planet. I think what you're overlooking is that ecosystems are don't achieve some ideal stasis and then freeze there; they're constantly changing as species evolve and become extinct.
From the point of view of human settlement, taking large predators out of the equation certainly has been beneficial, at least in the short term. It's good to be the apex predator, and it sucks to be the prey.
We can't reduce the size of our cities until we reduce the population -- that's a given. But even at a lower level of population density, coexistence with large predators is problematic. You can't send Junior out to walk the dog if there's a chance that neither one of them will return. That has always been the struggle.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)We have not seen such mass extinctions caused by us during all that time that begins to equate to the havoc we are causing now.
Species evolve and go extinct, yes, but not at the rate we are causing. That IS a moral issue, if morality is even a "thing."
(I argue it is).
Hominids have been able to coexist with other apex predators for most of our history. We just need to make different choices to do so again.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)But that havoc involves a whole lot more than our ability to "coexist" with apex predators, which in essence means that sometimes they kill us and sometimes we kill them. In fact, that coexistence, or the lack of it, is little more than a sideshow in the wholesale ecological nightmare that we are visiting on this planet, mainly through the toxic byproducts of our lifestyle and through our overuse of limited resources. We have much bigger problems.
Morality is a human invention. It evolved to facilitate the social constructs that have enabled us to survive thus far. There is absolutely nothing "moral" about the world of nature. Ask Darwin.
The whole notion of our making "choices" to enable our coexistence with apex predators suggests a sort of stewardship over the natural world, in which we make so-called "rational" choices in order to achieve a desired end. This has nothing to do with the observable principles that govern the natural world. Again, see Darwin.
The world of nature is driven by survival and nothing else. By that standard, mankind is the most successful species the world has ever seen. But we are victims of our own success, driving other species into extinction and outstripping the resources that have enabled us to thrive. We have developed rational principles that allow us to function in intraspecies encounters, but they don't apply in any meaningful way to interspecies encounters, in which we are thrown back to survival mode.
Human stewardship over animal life isn't the natural order; it's a manmade construct, a global petting zoo. That might be what it takes to avoid mass extinctions, but you can be sure that we as a species will never voluntarily take a few steps back down the food chain and abandon the apex position. It just isn't "natural."
Coventina
(27,172 posts)Straw Man
(6,625 posts)... how morality figures into evolution. It's a sincere question.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)This is actually a hot field of research right now, so a simple Google search will point you toward some recent research.
Darwin himself speculated that morality was probably a product of evolution, and not invented by humans.
If you want more scholarly sources, your local academic librarian will be happy to help you.
A book to start with would be: The Bonobo and the Atheist by Frans de Waal
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)"Invention" was a poor choice of words on my part. But I'll stand by what I said (repeated below).
My point is that morality is an evolutionary adaptation that is necessary for large-scale, complex social cooperation. It may exist to some extent in animal communities, but it certainly doesn't extend beyond the immediate group. Altruism only becomes viable when the species' survival is virtually guaranteed.
shrike3
(3,783 posts)2naSalit
(86,776 posts)I met Mock once or twice in passing, had to look up a picture to be sure. Sad.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)I just don't think that bears should be killed for being bears is all.
I am sorry for what Mock went through, as it was undoubtedly horrific.
I think our collective species' domination of the planet helps us to forget our relative individual helplessness.
Unless we have a firearm, we are no match for any large land predator.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)I have been an NPS Ranger and a bear safety specialist for several years, I am not in favor of killing bears for mauling humans unless they discover that humans are made out of meat and might be something to eat, it means they would probably kill others. And even then I don't like that they are killed for it.
There are ways to be safe in bear country but this guide seems to have become complacent as he successfully fished there many times before without incident. Like I said above, I know the location this happened, the employer and have met the victim in the past.
That the bear rushed the searchers was bad and was the death of him.
MontanaMama
(23,337 posts)Theres no way in hell I would be alone this time of year where this happened. Bears are out and theyre hungry. What happened is a tragedy all around.
My kiddo is an avid angler...he fishes the Blackfoot River Corridor like a maniac all season long. I do not let him fish the upper Blackfoot alone for this very reason. It is thick with grizzly bears in the spring when sows are coming out of dens with cubs and also in the fall before hibernation. We float the Blackfoot a lot as a family and never ever pull out in a spot where we cant see at least 100 yards around. Bears are easily hidden and can move a whole lot faster than any of us.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)It is sad.
Good to hear that you know where the bears hang out and when, they have their favorite haunts and return to them regularly if there is a food option.
MontanaMama
(23,337 posts)Humans breed food sources with our carelessness. I live exactly one mile from the Rattlesnake Wilderness trailhead. Grizzlies are regular visitors to the area and it never ceases to amaze me how many people leave pet food outside as well as bird feeders year round. Bears will eat whatever is near and available. All of my fruit trees have bear claw scars up and down the trunks. If I dont/cant get to the fruit before the bears scope it out, thats not their fault, its mine. I actually love knowing they are around. It heightens my senses. I wish more people would play by the rules and do the right thing.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)There's a hefty fine for leaving bear attractants outside but tourists in their vaca rentals will put their trash out on the porch and feed the bears. I still keep bear spray by the door because I had to when I lived there. And the ravens will always tell where the goodies are.
Just have to be bear aware if you're going to be outdoors in bear country, that is all. People seem to be okay with being oblivious to their surroundings and expect everyone else to watch out for them or take responsibility for their own lack of interest in their own safety. But I could rant about that all day, I managed to escape a heavily trafficked touristville so I am thankful to get out with most of my sanity.
mahatmakanejeeves
(57,603 posts)Investigation concludes bear spray worked, but was deployed too late.
By Mike Koshmrl Jan 30, 2019
A Florida hunter who fled from a grizzly bear that was trying to appropriate an elk carcass thought his Jackson Hole guide was already dead when he first rang 911 from a high slope in the Teton Wilderness.
Wyoming Game and Fish Department investigators later found evidence that supported his suspicion: that outfitter Mark Uptain was fatally wounded during an initial attack and likely died within minutes, even though he managed to halt the brutal mauling with a blast of bear spray and stagger 50 yards before succumbing to massive trauma and blood loss.
Evidence suggests that when Uptain deployed the bear spray, it stopped the aggression, giving him time to escape, Game and Fish investigators detailed in a just-released report. However, this appears to be after the fatal injuries were inflicted.
Mark Uptain
COURTESY PHOTO
Those conclusions, and descriptions of events that played out, come from a 34-page investigation report Game and Fish provided to the News&Guide following a public records request. The document doesnt settle all debates, but it clarifies a previously murky series of events, doing so with an analysis, photos, schematics, and statements and eyewitness reports from first responders, a coroner and hunting client Corey Chubon.
Some of the details that follow in this story are gory and graphic but are being included to give readers a sense of the true hazard thats an inherent part of recreating and hunting in grizzly bear habitat. ... The sudden Sept. 14 attack that killed 37-year-old Uptain and left five Jackson Hole children without a father is an outlier in several ways.
{snip}
shrike3
(3,783 posts)But it sounds like was caught unawares.
The tragedy that pulled heartstrings and stoked emotions in Jackson Hole and well beyond stemmed from a raghorn bull elk that Chubons crossbow hit with a poor shot on a Thursday afternoon in mid-September. Uptain, an experienced guide for Martin Outfitters, was with his hunter on Terrace Mountain, a broad peak thats 6 air miles from the Turpin Meadow trailhead. Uptain and Chubon couldnt find the elk, but they returned the next afternoon to where it was hit and then found a large blood trail. They followed it into a patch of timber and around 1 p.m. discovered the undisturbed carcass.
It was a warm day peaking at 73 degrees in nearby Moran and while field dressing the elk Uptain removed his shirt and left it and his black nylon shoulder strap holding a Glock 10-millimeter handgun 5 or 10 yards uphill of the carcass. A canister of bear spray was slung from a hip holster on Uptains left side, but Chubons bear spray was left in his pack because it had become cumbersome carrying it on the horse, he told investigators.
Uptain was removing the bulls head, with Chubon nearby, when they heard a sound of rocks tumbling, presaging the attack.
Mr. Chubon stated he looked up and saw two grizzly bears running full speed directly toward them, Game Warden Jon Stephens wrote after interviewing the surviving client.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)The guy could have been blind-sided by the bear but he also should have known better than to be out alone this time of year. I used to go mushroom picking where this happened and I always went with at least one other and we both had spray handy.
appalachiablue
(41,171 posts)alone in springtime. What got into him. An unnecessary tragedy for all.
2naSalit
(86,776 posts)I'm afraid that was the case here.
cinematicdiversions
(1,969 posts)sarisataka
(18,770 posts)For reminding me of that movie...
Mysterian
(4,593 posts)I have no information on what happened to this person but a lot of people do not obey the strict bear safety regulations, which have become more strict in the last three years.
The bear always dies when humans are careless. Pepper spray is very effective and must be at hand's reach.
Coventina
(27,172 posts)NewHendoLib
(60,019 posts)PoliticAverse
(26,366 posts)NewHendoLib
(60,019 posts)Wingus Dingus
(8,059 posts)byronius
(7,401 posts)Mistake. We've exterminated their species because we're stupid and cruel, thoughtless and incompetent.
Ultra-predators. Too successful to allow anything else to survive. Including perhaps ourselves -- in the end.
amcgrath
(397 posts)Because it had lost its fear of humans. And most experts will tell you that relocation is cruel. If there has been conflict with a human, its normally because the bear is struggling to cope. Moving them puts a compromised bear into another bears territory, its a death sentence.
The other point someone ought to make, is that 'the bears were there first' isnt necessarily that valid. Archeology suggests bears reached the contiguous northern states 12-1300yrs ago, after the end of the ice age. And so did humans, there are a dozen or tribes in Montana recognized as 'major' with another dozen described as 'minor'.
America was not empty, pending the arrival of John Wayne
Coventina
(27,172 posts)And. out of those tribes that migrated to the Americas....they were known for wiping out apex predators?
Seems as if the humans and bears coexisted pretty well, until the Europeans came along...
Ilsa
(61,698 posts)Paladin
(28,272 posts)Mysterian
(4,593 posts)and a lot of them consider these "investigations" as just an opportunity to go hunting on the government dime.
Rollo
(2,559 posts)Albeit in California where there are black bears, and no grizzly bears. Everything I've heard about grizzly bears makes me want to avoid them like the plague.
Not that black bears cannot be dangerous too. I backpacked the same river gorge alone three times over five years or so. It would take me about a week. I usually saw a black bear at some point each time. The first two trips, the bears kept their distance and I did the same. I don't recall bear spray being an option back then.
On the final trip, I found a harrowing note from a previous hiker, detailing how a bear ransacked their food and campsite, etc. I was always careful to hang my food from a tall tree branch and generally did not have a problem with the black bears. Occasionally I would see one, but it would keep its distance.
I got a bit freaked out, and decided to hike 10-15 miles up the 4,000 foot canyon in one day. Usually I'd stop halfway up to rest and enjoy the last night in the wild. But that time, largely because I knew that good trees to hang food from were sort of hard to find on that part of the trail, and I didn't want to risk a bear encounter I decided to make it all in one day. Took me about 10 hours, and when I got to the car campground at the top, it was pitch dark, and I was exhausted.
The kitchen had closed for the night, but I persuaded the staff to allow me to eat some food at the facility, and then fumbled my way to an open campsite. I hadn't much food left, what I had was freeze dried, and not thinking I just took the pillow sack it was in out of my backpack and tossed it on the picnic table. My flashlight batteries were dead and I could not for the life of me see if there were any secure places to keep the food. I crawled into my sleeping bag, no tent, and was asleep within seconds.
Some time later, I awoke to the sound of the pillow sack being ripped open. My bad... Other campers heard the noise and got up and were shouting, "Bear!". I guess they had working flashlights. The bear looked huge to me, sniffed in my general direction, and just grunted and waddled off, freeze dried whatever in its maw.
I haven't solo backpacked since. Been here, done that!