Transgender people in Utah can amend birth certificates, top court rules

[DonViejo]

Source: MSN/NY Daily News



Muri Assunção 1 hr ago

Transgender people in Utah have the right to amend their birth certificates, the state’s Supreme Court ruled on Thursday.

The 4-1 decision — hailed by advocates as a “a landmark win for transgender rights in Utah” — comes after a 3-year legal battle, and several attempts by lawmakers to block transgender Utahns from changing their name and gender on birth certificates.

The ruling overturned a district court ruling that denied plaintiffs Sean Childers-Gray, a transgender man, and Angie Rice, a transgender woman, the right to change their gender markers on state records.

"A person has a common-law right to change facets of their personal legal status, including their sex designation,” Justice Deno Himonas wrote in the majority opinion.

Read more: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/transgender-people-in-utah-can-amend-birth-certificates-top-court-rules/ar-BB1gtA5f

[Bayard]

1. Yay!

Quite unexpected for Utah.

[Hekate]

2. KnR

[Ron Obvious]

3. Sorry, this is falsification of historical records.

I'm sure this isn't a popular position here, but it's no different from changing your birthdate, place of birth, or the name of your mother and father because you don't like them.

Making reality subservient to ideology is deranged.

[msongs]

4. sometimes facts are inconvenient nt

[Hugh_Lebowski]

5. I'm really glad I didn't have to start this sort of conversation for once ;)

Change your passport, your license, pretty much ANYTHING but the historical document created at your birth, I'm 1000% cool with it

But changing this kind of document does bother me.

Although ... can I change my dad to Bill Gates, and say I was born in 1992, and then I'll be 29, and uber-rich?

If so, I guess maybe we can discuss this further

[msfiddlestix]

11. It bothers me too

I changed my name decades ago, but I never made the change in court until this past year.

At the time, DMV and SS accepted my name change without requiring a copy of a court approval or any other documentation for that matter. This was back in the late 70's or early 80's.

But this past year, I was required to get a court approval in order to be issued the California Real ID drivers license regardless pf the fact I've been a California driver for the past 50 years.

That was an arduous procedure, but I finally have it done. I never dreamed of amending my name on my Birth Certificate.

It just seems bizarre and wrong to engage in historical revisionism regarding documents like Birth Certificates.

Yes, I do consider it a historical document.

I think any I.D. changes should go through court approval, and the ruling to approve be filed with the original birth certificate for other identification documented purposes like passports, and drivers licenses etc.

[JusticeForAll]

7. I think this is perfectly acceptable and preferred

Birth Certificates are one of the most common documents used in proving one’s identity during the employment process. Disallowing this type of change invites discrimination.

[msfiddlestix]

10. That's interesting, I've never had to provide my birth certificate to employers

I wonder when that started being a thing?

[JusticeForAll]

16. List C, 1986

List C requires a birth certificate for those not privileged enough to own a passport.

I-9 has been a requirement since 1986.

https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/documents-for-i-9-verification?aceid=&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI37HA24C78AIVcQnnCh01dwGwEAAYASAAEgKu9vD_BwE

[msfiddlestix]

21. I'm over 70 and I still don't have a passport

I attempted twice to apply and were rejected both times because my name didn't match my revised identity. It's my fault, I didn't go through a legal process until this past year. I'm a low income senior. I worked office admin jobs throughout the 80's/90's and up until about 2013. the span of time I can count at least a half dozen different companies.

Also I worked for the Federal Government as a Census data operator in 89/90 , had to go through clearance process. Didn't provide anything other than my current dl and socio number. In California.

I'm just saying I never experienced this.

[JusticeForAll]

22. That's odd

It’s federal law. Every place of employment should require it prior to hiring.

[msfiddlestix]

23. I'm guessing it's probably standard now, although I've no idea

from personal experience, I've been out of the work force since 2013.

Apart from Resume/employment application (Name, DOB/School/College/Past Employment and Personal References) only provided DL's and Socio number to the employer at the time of hiring.

I worried that I wouldn't get the Census job, because of the name change, particularly learning of the clearance process. But I got the call to start working and so I did, and stayed with it past deadlines, until it was officially finished.

The thing about my name change, was actually just my first name, but kept my married name. Which was almost entirely disassociated with my birth name. DMV nor Social Security Admin didn't ever require a court approval. So I didn't ever see the need to go through the court expenses, until last year when California required every resident to have a "Real ID",, Then they didn't accept the name change (despite being in the system for nearly 50 years) thus went through a bureaucratic slog and expense obtaining court certified marriage and divorce documents along with birth certificate etc etc. to prove my identity from birth to the present time.

Now I shouldn't have a problem acquiring a passport, if only I had the money to travel out of country.

[JusticeForAll]

26. Sounds like an ordeal!!

Glad you were successful!

[msfiddlestix]

28. Ha! You've know idea.. it took months, the last leg of it was just after Covid struck

My final step was a Court hearing to approve. Covid shutdown just went into effect. April 15th of 2020 was my initial court hearing schedule, which was then postponed for a yet to be determined future date. If memory serves, I think it was June or July when it was on the docket . This process began in Sept of 2019 when my Drivers License was up for renewal and needed to get the "Real Id".

Every step was a nuisance partly because the DMV clerks gave me wrong info in terms of what was really required from the very beginning, leading me to multiple attempts to acquire documents I actually needed in my case.

Apart from my Birth Certificate which I had already, I needed to request court sealed Divorce and Marriage certificates, I already had my documents from Social Security indicating when I notified them of name change.. there was something else, but I forget now what it was. But the expense and the time involved was a slog to say the least. Oh, and after I submitted documents to the court, it was also required to publish name change in newspapers a month in advance of the court hearing. publishing had to be four weeks in a row.

Sheesh.

[RobinA]

30. Nowadays

you need birth certificate, copies of every diploma you ever got and college and grad school transcripts. To me, if they want diplomas, the last one should be the only one they need. Doesn't my Master's degree imply successful completion of high school? And that was in 2008, the last time I looked for a job and hopefully the last time I will EVER look for a job. I've had it with this nonsense.

[msfiddlestix]

34. Wow! So glad that stuff is behind me, but I think what my granddaughters will be going through

makes me sad.

You just me reminded me though, that Epstein didn't graduate from High School when he was hired at a University to teach physics. The connection was with Bill Barr's father I forget the details..

And then there's that privileged psychopath just exiled at the Magat Largo and how he frauded his way to buying his credentials. I realize that's entirely different issue. And look at all of the illegal Russian (et.al.) Residents, that had stolen American ID's to assimilate in our population by the millions. It's really quite startling. Much bigger than we had assumed.

Did you see the American's? Tv series based on true story. Fictionalized of course, but the main thrust of it was based on a real family.

The problem is, it ain't just a couple of families here and there, and it had continued even after being exposed!

So now our lives are turned upside down just to maintain some level of accounting on the citizenship in the U.S.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

14. Okay well how about this ... you can get a COPY that reflects your preferred sex

But we don't change the original that's at the Registar's Office?

That seems fair to me.

[RobinA]

31. I'm Good With That

As long as there exists a birth certificate that is retrievable that reflects the basic facts.

[Hugh_Lebowski]

33. Right. Apparently there's an amendment process so the original stays

but then there can be official pages attached, so that's how they do this (and also how they do name changes)

[cinematicdiversions]

25. I have never heard of a birth certificate being used for employment once you were past teenager.

Then again, twenty years ago I did have a company actually ask for a copy of my High School diploma. Why? I have no idea. Where it was located, I really had no idea.

[Kali]

9. I think it could be viewed as a correction of a record, not a falsification.

[Kali]

20. could be I suppose, or whatever is assigned as has been done in the past

subject to future correction. not seeing a big deal here, really.

[hunter]

24. Those poor people...

My grandfather had different birthdates on his military records, his Social Security, and his California Drivers license. His passport was derived from his Army Air Corp military service.

It was mess to clean up when he died.

He was born at home around 1900. Birth certificates were kept in the county court house. These historical records could be lost in all sorts of ways -- from fire to flood to negligence.

My grandfather reinvented himself several times in his life, starting when he ran off to the "big city" of Cheyenne, Wyoming around the age of sixteen, plus or minus a few years. He didn't want to be a rancher or a miner. From there he joined the U.S. Army hoping to be a pilot but they trained him to be a mechanic. He came out of World War II as an engineer with a mysteriously acquired knack for exotic metals.

Some of his metal took men to the moon and back.

I don't think we're owed any details of my grandfather's childhood, which was obviously rough. Not even his birth date. He was estranged from his family except a sister and she wasn't talking either.

It's a shame that it's so much more difficult to reinvent oneself these days. For every criminal who got away with their crimes because records were sparse, not kept on computers and microfilm, there were many good people who escaped circumstances they might not otherwise have survived.

I'll leave with this:

Charley Darkey Parkhurst (born Charlotte Darkey Parkhurst 1812–1879), also known as "One-Eyed Charley" or "Six-Horse Charley", was an American stagecoach driver, farmer and rancher in California. Raised a girl in New England, Parkhurst ran away as a youth, taking the name Charley and began living as a man.

--more--

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charley_Parkhurst

[RobinA]

29. Not Unpopular With Me

This botches the integrity of birth certificates, requiring more invasive measures to establish accurate records. The obvious response to this is to require a blood sample for DNA.

[Nexus2]

6. More of a question than a comment

Aren't there some medical reason that a person birth sex should recalled, such as some medications that affect biological males and females differently?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

8. Yes, patients should always inform doctors of their sex.

Biological sex has a great deal to do with how patients are treated in medicine.

QUOTE: MaryWrath @WrathMary asks: “So how are reproductively different bodies described then? How are cardiac arrest and stroke symptoms described, explained and taught as we know now they present differently across the two sexes? There are clearly two bodies in our species so how are the professors acknowledging?”

Organs are referred to by their actual names – penis, testes, vagina, ovaries, breasts. However, referring to patients as male or female is strictly taboo. If there are relevant but subtle sex-specific differences, then they will often be downplayed or ignored altogether. As an example, we were told that the higher risk of heart attacks in men was due only to the presence of testosterone, and not for any other reason, which is patently false. When the differences are utterly impossible to ignore, “male” and “female” will simply be rebranded as “people with testes/ovaries”, “AMAB/AFAB”, or “people with/without Y chromosomes”. My personal favorite is “persons with [testosterone/estrogen] as their primary sex hormone.” Oddly, “man” and “woman” are still used, often with redundant qualifiers (“56-year-old man with testes”).

/ENDQUOTE

Quote is taken from an article about the woke movement whereby students are policing their professors and shunning them in medical school.

https://www.plebity.org/conversations/gender-ideology-is-wreaking-carnage-in-our-medical-schools-an-eye-witness-report/

[RobinA]

32. That's Damn

scary. Maybe I'll have a pair of XX tattooed at various spots on my body. Or better, a medical ID bracelet.

[ga_girl]

12. Some observations on birth certificates and employement

Currently to apply to work in the US, a potential employee has to file an I-9 with the employer. There are two aspects to the I-9 - it confirms identity and eligibility to work in the US. Law since 1986. A US passport, or passport card, can satisfy both aspects of the law. To establish identity, a US drivers license is adequate. To establish eligibility, a Social Security card is adequate. Yes, a certified birth certificate can establish eligibility, but it's not required. A birth certificate does NOT establish identity and eligibility.

I know that in Georgia, a person can change their name via court order, and then use that order to amend their birth certificate. My amended BC has a notation for change of first name and change of middle name. I presume that if I were to change the sex marker that would also be noted.

A US passport can have the gender marker changed by documentation by a physician that the patient has had " appropriate clinical treatment for transition ". Relatively easy and does NOT require surgical interventions.

It's been a while since I last applied for employment, but my US passport in my old identity was adequate, and presentation of my name change court order was adequate to update records.

https://www.indeed.com/hire/c/info/documents-for-i-9-verification?aceid=&gclid=CjwKCAjw7diEBhB-EiwAskVi10GOl3TyoIWU63TU0x4eZFapsJDX6JBm9hNBXWZ3148GqkXhPJTdQhoCF4IQAvD_BwE

[Hugh_Lebowski]

15. Okay, cool so there are, at least in some places, amendments possible via an attached document

That sounds perfect.

I just didn't like the idea of actually altering the original document created at the time.

Presumably that's actually how it works in UT as well.

[JusticeForAll]

17. Thank you for posting this!

I posted the same link above (#16), not realizing you had already done so!

[StevieM]

18. I hope someday adopted people in Utah will be allowed access to their original birth certificates.

If we are looking to expand justice to all groups of Americans, then let's not exclude adoptees.

[ck4829]

27. K&R