Israel plans to double settlement in Golan Heights
Source: Associated Press
Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Sunday the country intends to double the amount of settlers living in the Israeli-controlled Golan Heights with a multimillion-dollar plan meant to further consolidate Israel’s hold on the territory it captured from Syria more than five decades ago.
Bennett said the new investment in the region was prompted by the Trump administration’s recognition of Israeli sovereignty over the swath of land and by the Biden administration’s indication that it will not soon challenge that decision.
“This is our moment. This is the moment of the Golan Heights,” Bennett said at a special Cabinet meeting in the Golan Heights. “After long and static years in terms of the scope of settlement, our goal today is to double settlement in the Golan Heights.”
Entrenching Israeli control over the territory would complicate any future attempt to forge peace with Syria, which claims the Golan Heights.
Read more: https://apnews.com/article/lifestyle-travel-middle-east-israel-syria-39652efff41b83afffcd51ff352db523
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Lonestarblue
(10,003 posts)People who are displaced tend to fight back. How does this promote peace or fairness for the Palestinians?
Response to Lonestarblue (Reply #1)
Chin music This message was self-deleted by its author.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)And they attacked Israel and lost it in counter attacks. Plus it gives a high ground for Syrian artillery to hit targets in Israel, not surprising they don't want to give it back, surprise attacks that fail have consequences.
marybourg
(12,631 posts)from the Heights. There is no security possible for Israel if it doesn’t hold this high ground. This is a very different situation from the Palestinian one.
Budi
(15,325 posts)That's where we are today.
Every Democracy in the world is being threatened.
Really, so you lump the Syrians in with anti democracy organizations like the republican party?
oldsoftie
(12,548 posts)Budi
(15,325 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,344 posts)... after inheriting the post from his father, who was president for thirty years.
Republican party and Israel are far more democratic. Syria might be on a par with Belarus or Saudi Arabia, when it comes to a democratic process of governing.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)When the Palestinians can vote then we will talk about Democracy.
Can you say South Africa.
Budi
(15,325 posts)Political structure
Israel is a parliamentary democracy, consisting of legislative, executive and judicial branches. Its institutions are the Presidency, the Knesset (parliament), the Government (cabinet), the Judiciary and the State Comptroller.
The system is based on the principle of separation of powers, with checks and balances, in which the executive branch (the government) is subject to the confidence of the legislative branch (the Knesset) and the independence of the judiciary is guaranteed by law
MORE...
https://embassies.gov.il/kathmandu/AboutIsrael/State/Pages/Israeli-democracy.aspx
Perhaps Israel has a far better opportunity to finally become the fairest gov't system they seek for all citizens, now that Netanyahu is out of power.
Yes Israel is a form of Democracy, recognizing fair elections, LGBTQ, Women & Educational, & human rights.
Perhaps HAMAS should get their Iran supported bad business out of Israel & the region's good business.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)the Knesset passed the Jewish Nation-State Law, a racist bill that enshrines Jewish superiority by claiming that only Jewish people have a right to self-determination in Israel and the Palestinian territories, promoting Jewish settlement also on occupied territory, and abolishing Arabic as an official language of the state — even with the most ever Palestinian representatives sitting in Parliament. The Washington Post By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
Further in the article we have this information:
Through this false stratification, Israel can continue referring to us as a minority, even though Palestinians are a demographic majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. By giving only a certain class of Palestinians the right to vote, Israel maintains a veneer of democracy, even though more than 75 percent of Palestinians who live under varying degrees of its rule are disenfranchised. The Washington Post By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
More yet:
It treats Palestinians with similar policies of discrimination and dispossession, including home demolitions, confiscation of Palestinian land and police brutality — regardless of whether we are citizens. The Washington Post By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
This pretty much wraps it up:
In modern nation-states, citizenship is a privilege and the right to vote in democratic elections even more so. Millions of stateless Palestinians can attest to that. But without disputing the power imbalance and challenging Jewish supremacy, participating in the legislature could lead to very limited and narrow improvements at best. Only once the international community holds Israel to the standards of international law will a step in the direction of justice and full equality be possible. By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
Henriette Chacar is a Palestinian citizen of Israel. It is important to listen to BOTH sides.
Understand this information is from a five minute search. The facts are out there.
I have no ax to grind with Jews but I do not agree with the current political state of Israel. My own opinion is that the creation of the Israeli state in the middle of Muslim lands was a huge mistake. A mistake that will cost lives for a long time.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)by an assistant editor of a self-proclaimed left wing magazine?
That proposition itself is pretty detached from reality, isn't it?
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)There is way more information available to support my argument.
You however have presented nothing to support your argument. Just saying!
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)I didn't make an argument either. I stated facts that fly in the face of the obviously false proposition contained in the previous post which claimed Israel is not a democracy. These facts were confirmed in the only article you found as a result of your five-minute search.
If you ever decide to make an argument, I am looking forward to it. And by all means, include plenty of information to support it. Next time, however, please include links to your information. And I would appreciate sources other than op-ed articles.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)You can be Jewish and be any race
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)Which is what I presented.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)But people of the Jewish faith can not live peacefully in Gaza. So who are the "racists"?
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)Wonder where that water is. 97% of the water in Gaza is undrinkable. Ya don't suppose someone is bombing the water systems????? No way!!!
Could it be that the whole conflict is about water?
In just a few years there will be no water and everyone will have to move out of the whole area!!!! This is stupidity. Let's see who will be forced to move first?
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)They could bring in whatever they want if they were better neighbors.. but even Egypt has had enough of their terrorist activities
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)We took their country away from them. They bulldoze their olive trees and homes. Take their land for settlements and build walls.
Yet you blame the Palestinians for all that is wrong.
The odd part is you refuse to accept what is going to happen. There is no water in the WHOLE area. 20 years and the place is barren desert. No one is going to win.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Terrorists from Gaza causing mayhem in the Sinai has nothing to do with Israel and all to do with Hamas and nothing to do with water.
We took their country away from them What country would that be? There has never been a independent country called Palestine.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)They were treated fairly and you believe they are just a bunch of terrorists.
You probably don't like the Native Americans either.
I get it you don't want to talk about what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians so you divert.
Bottom line without water the whole area will collapse. As climate change unfolds over the next 20 years there will be no Israel. I suggest you look closer the conflict is about water and who will control the water.
I value the conversation because to few Americans want to look past the obvious. There are problems on both sides. The Jews are not innocent.
Mosby
(16,317 posts)They lead the world in that endeavor.
The Jews have every right to live in their ancestral homeland, just like NAs and First Peoples do. There has been no time in the past 3500 years where Jews didn't live in Israel, Judea and Samaria. Even if they had been successfully eliminated from the region, the remaining Jews around the world would have the right to reestablish their homeland.
https://www.fluencecorp.com/israel-leads-world-in-water-recycling/
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)However that does not change the fact that their supply will dwindle. It is a huge problem.
The Arabs just arrived? Shouldn't millions of Arabs be allowed to move there like the Jews did.
The Arabs and are treated the same as Native Americans and African Americans etc. The Nation State law is Apartheid.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Also, you say Muslims for some reason, but it's Israeli Arabs who live in Israel and are treated poorly by Israel. Arab Israelis are made up of different religious groups, though the majority would be Muslim. Trying to equate Israel and the Gaza Strip is an exercise in intellectual dishonesty, as Gaza is occupied territory controlled by Israel and once Israel removed its settlers from Gaza, there's not many Israelis allowed by Israel to live there.
Who's the racists? I think the more apt term is Fucking Bigots. And there's plenty of those in both the Israeli govt and Hamas. As well as the extremists in both populations.
Also, not sure if you're too interested in reading up on the topic of discrimination in Israel, but for those who are, I'm doing the lazy linking to Wikipedia thing. There's a bunch of links in the references section that leads to much more information.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Last edited Tue Dec 28, 2021, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)
But Jews, not Israelis, from any country could never live in Gaza without being murdered... Nor could citizens of Gaza peacefully convert to Judaism if they wanted to.. so who are the bigots again?
..
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)Except they don't call themselves Palestinians. They call themselves Israelis. But they are the same Palestinian Arabs as the ones in the West Bank and Gaza. They just chose to stay within Israel's borders after Israel declared independence. And now, not only can they vote,not only are they Israeli citizens, not only do they have representation in the Israeli Parliament, but they are now part of Israel's ruling coalition.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)the Knesset passed the Jewish Nation-State Law, a racist bill that enshrines Jewish superiority by claiming that only Jewish people have a right to self-determination in Israel and the Palestinian territories, promoting Jewish settlement also on occupied territory, and abolishing Arabic as an official language of the state — even with the most ever Palestinian representatives sitting in Parliament. The Washington Post By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
Futher in the article we have this information:
Through this false stratification, Israel can continue referring to us as a minority, even though Palestinians are a demographic majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. By giving only a certain class of Palestinians the right to vote, Israel maintains a veneer of democracy, even though more than 75 percent of Palestinians who live under varying degrees of its rule are disenfranchised. The Washington Post By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
More yet:
It treats Palestinians with similar policies of discrimination and dispossession, including home demolitions, confiscation of Palestinian land and police brutality — regardless of whether we are citizens. The Washington Post By Palestinian citizen of Israel The article is from 2019.
This pretty much wraps it up:
In modern nation-states, citizenship is a privilege and the right to vote in democratic elections even more so. Millions of stateless Palestinians can attest to that. But without disputing the power imbalance and challenging Jewish supremacy, participating in the legislature could lead to very limited and narrow improvements at best. Only once the international community holds Israel to the standards of international law will a step in the direction of justice and full equality be possible. By Henriette Chacar The article is from 2019.
Henriette Chacar is a Palestinian citizen of Israel
Understand this information is from a five minute search.
I have no ax to grind with Jews but I do not agree with the current political state of Israel. My own opinion is that the creation of the Israeli state in the middle of Muslim lands was a huge mistake. A mistake that will cost lives for a long time.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)from a single op-ed article by an assistant editor of a self described left-wing Israeli magazine. When you rely on a source like this, you ar4e unlikely to find answers to complicated questions, or any useful information, period.
It is fully expected that a left-wing journalist will rely, despite its glaring biases, on left wing rhetoric in her opinion piece, and engaging in partisan back and forth will not clarify the situation one bit. Venting on the pages of WP may be good therapy for the author, but it contributes precious little to clarifying a complicated situation. In a country that promotes free press, which Israel does, everyone is entitled to lay bare the biases of their opinions, and, if opportunity presents itself, publish them in WP.
Nothing in the article, nor in the law passed by the Knesset in 2018 that the author refers to, changes or challenges anything I stated in my post: Israeli Arabs DO vote in Israel, they are Israeli citizens, they are ethnically and culturally identical to the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank and Gaza, they remain in Israel and are subject to Israel's laws as any other Israeli citizens are, they are represented in Knesset, and they are currently part of the government ruling coalition.
These are the facts that the article you referred to do not address.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)I presented one article that did dispute your statements. You have presented no resourced information to back your position.
I did not say you post was incorrect. I pointed out that MOST Palestinians can't vote and have no input into the conditions that control them.
Understand this. It is all about WATER. Both sides will fail. Very shortly no one will be able to live there. There is no water and that is the fight! This is EPIC bullshit politics which is NOT serving humanity.
Go get high and think about that.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)My post was about Israeli Arabs, in response to a post that erroneously claims that Israel is not a democracy. It was a factual statement about nearly two million Israeli Arabs, who are culturally and ethnically identical to the rest of Palestinian Arabs, being able to vote, being represented in the Israeli Parliament and being part of Israel's ruling coalition.
You didn't present any sourced information disputing my statements either. The one and only source you eluded to turned out to be an op-ed piece (clearly marked as such) by an admittedly left-wing leaning author. Nothing in the article, and nothing in the passages you copied from the article, disputed anything contained in my post. In fact, the header of the article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/09/20/no-matter-how-many-palestinians-vote-israeli-elections-we-still-cant-win/) quite literally confirms what I stated about Israeli Arabs voting in Israeli elections. The article further confirms that the party representing Israeli Arabs is, indeed, represented in the Israeli Knesset and that their representatives are, indeed, included in the ruling coalition. If you were looking for sourced information, you didn't have to go any further than the article you found in a five-minute search.
Things don't get any less complicated than that, do they? Unless you try hard to complicate them.
While we are on the subject, allow me to point out some glaring factual inaccuracies (I will not even go into the obvious and all-too-familiar grossly opinionated left wing fodder that was also included) which are, while not of your own making, contained in your post:
-The 2008 law being referred to in the article does not "claim... that only Jewish people have a right to self-determination in Israel and the Palestinian territories".
- That the above law is "promoting Jewish settlement also on occupied territory" is false.
-That the above law is "abolishing Arabic as an official language of the state" is false.
-The above law does not in any way address "a demographic majority between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea."
-"treat[ing] Palestinians with similar policies... regardless of whether we are citizens" is forbidden by the 4th Geneva Convention, and thus Israel is obligated to treat the Palestinians differently depending on their citizenship status.
For reference, here is the link to the ACTUAL LAW referred to in your article, the law you neglected to cite, the law that the short and factual statements in my post did not in any way reference or address, the law that therefore falls way outside the scope of short and factual statements that I made and you responded to:
https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/News/PressReleases/Pages/Pr13978_pg.aspx
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)Israel is not a democracy.
The law I referenced in my post was:
The Nation State law, passed in 2018 NOT 2008. As my post clearly stated!
The law does three big things:
It states that “the right to exercise national self-determination” in Israel is “unique to the Jewish people.”
It establishes Hebrew as Israel’s official language, and downgrades Arabic — a language widely spoken by Arab Israelis — to a “special status.”
It establishes “Jewish settlement as a national value” and mandates that the state “will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.”
But you already knew all this!!! All you did was divert. Many in Israel called the law apartheid.
Thing is, it just does not matter and the argument is pointless. At this time our argument is already history. There is no water and that is what the conflict is about. No one is going to win and the whole area will be barren. There is NO WATER and they are fighting over worthless land without water. This will be one of many areas that get abandoned. Then the wars will start. Israel already uses 25% more water than their environment can sustain. 95% of the water on the west bank is not fit for human consumption. We are witnessing a society crumble in slow motion.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)How many in Israel called the law apartheid? There are many who say Jews will not replace them, but they are not basing their statements in fact. There are many who say Jews ought to be driven into the sea, but this is nothing but the expression of rabid hatred. There is a big difference between factual statements and empty opinionated rhetoric. And stating that Israel is not a democracy, or that the law in question constitutes apartheid, certainly has no basis in fact, which is not to say that I expect you to refrain from engaging in opinionated rhetoric.
As far as the law in question, you didn't refer to it. The article you pasted from did, and the date of the law was not given there either. The date of the law is indeed 2018, not 2008. I made a typo, but since I provided the link to the text of the correct law, it should leave no doubt which law I was referring to.
-It is a given, and is not in any way a departure from previously stated positions of Israeli government, that a Jewish state would leave the ACTUALIZATION (a word you left out) of the right of national self-determination to the Jewish people. Wouldn't it make sense that the actualization of the right to national self-determination in Japan to be reserved uniquely to the Japanese people? This self-determination, BTW, does not extend beyond Israel's border, and it does not affect, for instance, the Gaza strip.
- The law doesn't downgrade Arabic to any status below what it previously was. In fact, it states that "This clause (referring to the previous clause in the law that you have misrepresented as a "downgrade) does not change the status given to the Arabic language before the basic law was created." right below the clause defining the status of Arabic. Hebrew has always been the official language of Israel, and most of its citizens, regardless of their ethnic background, speak it fluently.
-The "Jewish settlement" clause mandates nothing. It pledges the support of Israeli government to "encourage and promote its establishment and development.”
Yes, I knew all this before you replied. I DO read what I cite in its entirety. This is how I know when you are making false or unfounded statements, or when you quote out of context. If my attention to the essence of what I post upsets you, it is a reaction on your part, not a diversion on mine.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)They represent millions.
If I follow your first point you are saying that only Jewish people should have a say in self-determination. So the other millions of citizens should have no say in Israel self determination? Who would you say should have that power in America.
They have clearly stated Hebrew is the language of the country. Was it the language of the country before WWII?
They are illegally taking land for settlements and the world knows it. You want to hide this fact.
Clearly there are issues and problems on both sides. No one is innocent here. The historical pattern of blaming the Palestinians for everything will fail.
However all this discussion is BS when you examine the water issues in the entire region. No one will win. The population is unsustainable with current water resources. Everyone knows this and water will be what causes the next war. Water should be the Head Line issue. Fact is Israel is a leader in water conservation. They recycle over 90% of their waste water.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)The only statement I am aware of that came from Arabs in the government is from Mansour Abbas, head of the Arab Coalition which is currently part of Israel's ruling coalition:
https://www.palestinechronicle.com/fatah-slams-mansour-abbas-for-saying-israel-is-jewish-state/
This is quite contrary to what you have stated. Did you, by any chance, make an honest mistake or simply misspeak?
And you are clearly not following my points. You are misrepresenting them. One gets an impression that you didn't even read the full text of the Basic Law, or at least didn't compare my direct quotes from it with the original, even though I provided you, for your convenience, a link to it. Here it is again, just in case you change your mind and decide to refer to it while you are making your comments:
https://main.knesset.gov.il/EN/News/PressReleases/Pages/Pr13978_pg.aspx
If you pay attention to it, you would see that:
-when I quoted the text of the law I didn't say that "only Jewish people should have a say in self-determination." All I did was quote Paragraph C of Article 1 which states: "The actualization of the right of national self-determination in the state of Israel is unique to the Jewish people." Not have a say in self-determination, but actualize it. The law doesn't assign any other role, including having a say in self-determination, to the Jews or any other Israeli citizens.
- Paragraphs C and D in the same article of the law clearly state that "b) The Arabic language has a special status in the state; the regulation of the Arab language in state institutions or when facing them will be regulated by law. c) This clause does not change the status given to the Arabic language before the basic law was created." I don't understand your objection to clearly stating that Hebrew is the language of Israel, or how this particular law changes the status of Arabic. While your question about the language in the land prior to WWII is weird and irrelevant (there was no country of any kind in Mandatory Palestine back then), the official language of the land was English, and prior to WWI it was Turkish.
I assume that the "land for settlements" you are referring to is the land on the occupied territories. If I am correct in this assumption,
-the "settlement" mentioned in Article 7 of the law (7. The state views Jewish settlement as a national value and will labor to encourage and promote its establishment and development.) does not refer to any physical settlements. It refers to the act of Jewish people settling in the State of Israel as a valuable activity of national importance.
-the law in question doesn't address any of the "settlements" anywhere, and therefore,
-I never mentioned them in any of my posts. Am I hiding anything? No. What I am doing is called staying on subject, which I wish you did as well. If you want me to address the illegal settlements on the occupied territories, start a different thread.
While there are issues "on both sides", I deliberately did not address any of them in this thread. What I am addressing here is accuracy of representation and basis in fact, which are sorely missing in your responses. These fundamentals are required before any meaningful discussion on the issues can even take place.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)"But for Israeli Arabs, who make up one-fifth of Israel’s 9 million citizens, the new law was a slap in the face. When the law passed, Arab parliamentary members ripped up copies of the bill and shouted, “Apartheid,” on the floor of the Knesset (Israel’s parliament)." VOX https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/31/17623978/israel-jewish-nation-state-law-bill-explained-apartheid-netanyahu-democracy
Wonder how you could have missed those statement and display of anger on the floor of the Knesset? So now tell me what is wrong with these facts? For the record Abbas's political friends were not happy with his statement. An easy search with no need to support. But you know that also.
You appear to believe (or at least present) that the Jews are innocent of all responsibility. You will argue endlessly to support your position. The world does not agree with you. The world sees the whole picture.
I am not so vested in any side that I cannot see the faults of each.
The illegal settlements are a big part of my original statements concerning Israel not operating as a Democracy. It is part of the subject. You sir continue to be disingenuous. Baffle them with bullshit would be how many would identify your responses.
Arabs are treated like shit in Israel. That is also an easily searchable fact. The Nation State law is simply a gathering up long standing discrimination. Where have we seen that kind of discriminatory law used? Where oh where have I seen this before?
I do enjoy the debate and I believe it has value.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)And, according to the link you finally provided in support of your previous statement, SOME of the minority Arabs in government called it apartheid. Others, as I illustrated previously, did not. It is not clear how many, but it's clear the call didn't live up to the unanimity suggested in the header of your previous post. The same goes for Abbas' political friends: some, but certainly not all, were unhappy with his statement according to your source. Some, not all. Keep this in mind when you call for others to accept two sides of the issue.
Congratulations on your first attempt to refer to a source that somewhat backs up your statement. Please keep in mind what I said before: what I am objecting to in this thread is lack of accuracy in representation and basis in fact. Like the absurd suggestion that Israel is not a democracy. Like false representations of the content of Basic Law. Like passing a one-sided op-ed article for a legitimate source for objective analysis. Does this amount to me absolving Jews of all responsibility? Hell no! I am very deliberate in avoiding any assignment of blame or talk of responsibility on all sides. All I am doing is separate fact from fiction.
The Jungle 1
(4,552 posts)A link that supports your position that only some of the minority Arabs in government called it apartheid. You presented one statement of Abbas stating how Israel was created. How many agreed with him?
See how this works both ways and there are two sides.
The thing is what you believe to be fact may not be fact.
Congratulations on presenting no support or source for you statement about some of the minority.
This has become a bore and it is not why I come here. I am done.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)I provided you a link to the statement made by the leader of Arab Coalition. Unless you contest its accuracy, you have no grounds to suggest unanimous sentiment by the Israeli Arab lawmakers about Israel being an apartheid state. At best, you may claim that "most" of them expressed this sentiment rather than "some", but your claim is not going to be any more valid than mine, and it will not make your categorical statement any more accurate than it was when you made it.
If you are still interested in just how many Israeli Arab lawmakers exposed themselves to be such shoddy representatives of the 2 million Israeli Arab citizens who elected them, I can help you narrow their numbers. We are talking a maximum of nine individuals. Out of 2 million.
And if you were getting ready to pounce on my shoddy representation comment, I am way ahead of you. It is not my opinion, it's a fact: I just happened to stumble on two opinion polls conducted among Arab Israelis by two of the most reputable Israeli polling organizations (admittedly, it took me more than five minutes to verify their credentials). One was reported a year after the Basic Law was passed (https://www.972mag.com/poll-israelis-positive-view-jewish-arab-relations/), and the other, two years after the passage of the law (https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2020/11/06/israel-and-its-arab-citizens/).
The first poll found, among other things, that 51% of Israel’s Arabs identify themselves as “Arab-Israeli” and an additional 23% identify as “Israeli”. The survey also found that 76% of Israeli-Arabs within Israel, Jewish-Muslim relations are overwhelmingly positive.
The second poll found that among Israel's minorities (overwhelmingly Arab), 26% define themselves mainly as Israeli and half of them (51%) identify themselves as Arab-Israeli. The share of non-Jews who define themselves mainly as Palestinian is around 7%, down from 18% of the previous year.
So much for the credibility of the lawmakers shouting "apartheid" from the floor of the Knesset. They may have represented their dramatic selves, but certainly not the two million Israeli Arabs who elected them.
You may also be interested that a report on yet another recently conducted poll (https://www.algemeiner.com/2021/12/14/report-93-of-polled-arab-residents-of-jerusalem-prefer-israeli-rule-to-palestinian-authority/) found that an overwhelming 93% of Jerusalem's Arab residents (an estimated 360,000 of them) prefer Israeli rule to Palestinian Authority.
So much for the anti-democratic repressive fascist zionist apartheid regime. The more you know, the faster the pompous anti-Israel grandstanding loses all its credibility.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... the situation is always more complicated than it seems on the surface.
Yes, the descendants of those who either could not flee what appeared to be a ton of people about to make the place very friggin' dangerous, or who wanted to stay, have those rights. (Everyone was surely talking about what would happen when the British Mandate ended, and we cannot know the reasons some left. War is awful, people on all sides die, and fleeing in the face of it is not necessarily a "disloyal" decision for a civilian with a family to think about -- even if they flee to one of the states threatening to blow up what is their home because it's safer to not be where the troops/bombs/guns they'll deploy will go.)
These things happened generations ago, and those growing up now with each status -- full Israeli citizenship, or not, based on whether their civilian grandparents refugeed from war -- may feel differently about the policy decision that made many war refugees ineligible for citizenship (the Quakers were amazingly surprised at how determined refugees from that series of wars were to return to their homes instead of, as many European refugees acted during WWII, not caring where they eventually settled or necessarily wanting to come back to their pre-war homes). Especially if the group that feels the decision was unjust has been taught one narrative and the ones benefitting from their grandparents perhaps simply being too poor to flee/not in an area where flight was required during the war taught another.
Frankly, the humanitarian crisis in Gaza contributes to its continuing threat to Israel by the radicals. In my opinion it is a breeding ground for the danger Israel legitimately faces at least partly because civilians are living in appalling conditions. Appalling conditions create people vulnerable to those who preach radical views. It's a cycle I don't know how to stop and won't pretend I know the solution.
I just pray for the innocents on all sides -- even if some are better protected, protection can still fail. 
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)It directly addressed the claim that "Israel is not a democracy", which is patently false, however imperfect that democracy is.
Having said this, I am so glad to see someone acknowledge the mind boggling complications that are built into the history and the present state of the Israeli-Palestinian relations, and I thank you for bringing the subject up.
To take your example of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, which in itself is but one of many pieces that make up the enormous geo-political puzzle in the Middle East: not only is it a threat to Israel's security, but it is also an equally serious threat to the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank. The break between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority is itself a direct result of different a split among the Palestinians population along the lines of militant Islam on the side of Hamas and bureaucratic secularism on the side of PA (this matter by itself is far more nuanced that it first appears). This split, in turn, has a basis in the origins of the two factions: Hamas being an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt, and PLO (which was declared to be the sole representative of the Palestinian people by the Arab League, but this is yet another complication of the matter that deserves its own thread) being a secular entity that originated in Jordan. Both were used by the governments of their respective countries of origin to advance their geopolitical ambitions, and both were abandoned when the geopolitical ambitions of their hosts didn't materialize. PLO, which eventually morphed into Palestinian Authority, chose the path of seeking autonomy through civil disobedience and negotiations with Israel, and Hamas chose open Jihad with the goal of eliminating Israel.
This is but the most shortened version of the "cliff's notes" of just one issue, the Gaza humanitarian crisis. Keeping in mind that the Israeli-Palestinian issue cannot be separated from the current geo-political struggle for regional dominance between the Sunni (headed by Saudi Arabia and the previously secular Turkey, a NATO member state) and Shiah (headed by Iran) religious factions of Islam, civil war in Syria, and near-civil war in Lebanon, seeing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza as strictly the result of tensions between Hamas and Israel is pretty deceptive.
Each of the above issues is interrelated, and one cannot be resolved without addressing the others.
moriah
(8,311 posts)The situation is so complex that even what I said was an oversimplification bordering on potentially being offensive simply because of how oversimplified it was.
I don't post in I/P mainly because I don't feel informed enough to do so, but I have tried to inform myself based on what historical records I can read that were written in English as the primary language -- like that AFSC report. Clearly those who fled didn't intend their flight to be abandonment of their own rights to the land as well, and that's been passed down for the people affected by the decisions (along with whatever else, and potentially twisted) for generations.
As I said, I just pray. Cuz I'm not qualified to say more.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)Land ownership vs land occupancy is another very complicated issue. The former can be fairly easy to verify, while the latter, outside of sparsely available and thus hardly representative birth and death records, can only be estimated using indirect evidence and testimonials, as the UN Human Rights Commission itself acknowledged.
OneCrazyDiamond
(2,032 posts)Say hello to the new boss.
IronLionZion
(45,447 posts)especially on the occupied territories issue
ripcord
(5,404 posts)They lost that territory when they and other Arab nations attacked Israel with the intent to drive the Jews out of the middle east.
Budi
(15,325 posts)There are certainly those in the region who seek to benefit from keeping the false message going.
Why is Sen Rand Paul still holding up funds for Iro Dome, a system purely designed for safety in that region?
He is, even tho it's been voted on & approved.
Ukraine has also sought to install a similar Iron Dome system in their region for the sake of safety against those who want to harm them.
Considering all that Paul HAS allowed to be funded, who exactly is he aligned with in preventing this Defensive system for that region?
It is a dangerous move on his part that leaves that region vulnerable to those who seek to upend a Democratic govt.
Link to tweet
oldsoftie
(12,548 posts)Money that is supposed to go to Afghanistan. Not sure I disagree with that point. I cant see sending 6 Billion to the Taliban when there are no guarantees that the money will be used for its intended purpose of humanitarian aid. How do we keep it from being spent for other means?
dbonds
(4,793 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)
Grins
(7,217 posts)Uhhhh, Prime minister…. Trump isn’t (Thank, Yahweh!) President and has not been for almost a year.
So this is just another excuse to steal land, and one more reason for me not to give a shit about Israel.
Beastly Boy
(9,363 posts)Is Biden a reason for you to not give a shit about Israel too? Not that it makes any difference. People find lots of reasons to not give a shit about Israel. Like not giving a shit about Israel being attacked and repelling agressors. Hell, some people would even go as far as equate winning wars Israel didn't start with stealing land, just to claim they don't give a shit!
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)The Israeli's have had the Golan heights for over 50 years.
The Syrians lost it when they attacked Israel.
Starting a war and losing it has consequences.
TiberiusB
(487 posts)...based on aggressive stances taken by Israel's neighbors, both rhetorically, and along their borders militarily, but Israel struck first. There were a series of air strikes launched by Israel that crippled the Arab forces on the morning of June 5, 1967. Given that fact, it isn't hard to see how there is a difference of opinion over the status of the Golan heights.
Mosby
(16,317 posts)That early genocidal attempt by Syria and other Arab armies to destroy Israel failed, as did the 1967 and 1973 efforts to eliminate Israel. The Syrians also got they asses kicked in the Bekka Valley war. They haven't had a lot of luck fighting against the Jews.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)False Egyptian reports of a crushing victory against the Israeli army[88] and forecasts that Egyptian forces would soon be attacking Tel Aviv influenced Syria's decision to enter the war – in a sporadic manner – during this period.[132] Syrian artillery began shelling northern Israel, and twelve Syrian jets attacked Israeli settlements in the Galilee. Israeli fighter jets intercepted the Syrian aircraft, shooting down three and driving off the rest.[134] In addition, two Lebanese Hawker Hunter jets, two of the twelve Lebanon had, crossed into Israeli airspace and began strafing Israeli positions in the Galilee. They were intercepted by Israeli fighter jets, and one was shot down
Syria had stayed out of it they wouldn't have lost the Golan Heights.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Fighting_fronts
TiberiusB
(487 posts)Since Israel had launched a massive airstrike on Egypt, is it hard not to see the Syrian perspective that there was likely a high probability of an Israeli strike on their forces next? If a NATO ally is attacked, aren't we essentially obligated to respond? Again, the antagonistic stances of Egypt, Syria, and Jordan did them no favors, but you can't claim that Syria was 100% sure to avoid hostilities if it didn't attack. Egypt hadn't attacked and they got their air force wiped out. It's also the case that both Syria and Jordan's forces were crippled by NOON on the same day as the Egyptian attack. Who thinks Israel was magically prepared to take out all of it's neighbors air capabilities in a 4 hour window just by chance? Those strikes were planned well in advance, either as a response to aggression, or as a preemptive strike.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)TiberiusB
(487 posts)Egypt, Syria and Jordan had been provocative in their rhetoric and military maneuvers toward Israel. However, they did not actually openly attack or invade. Israel decided to attack Egypt to cripple their military capability and secure their south western border. Syria and Jordan likely took this as a first step by Israel to secure all their borders, meaning an attack on their forces was imminent. That's perfectly logical. You don't have to agree with their stance toward Israel to see the incredibly high probability that Israel was preparing to launch strikes against them, too. The fact that within hours, Israel did just that, pretty much backs that line of thinking up. Whether you believe they were in any kind of mutual defense arrangement with each other or not, or that they were just waiting for an excuse to attack Israel, Israel still struck first. Now was it basically a hopeless effort? Oh, certainly. With Egypt out of the picture, Syria and Jordan were almost guaranteed to lose. It's also the case that if things turned against Israel, the U.S. would come running. That U.S. backing is a HUGE deterrent. It still is. The Golan Heights were captured after Israel attacked Egypt and Syria responded with it's own strikes, followed swiftly by the destruction of their own forces by the Israeli air force. If Syria had held back, it's impossible to say what would have happened. They might have skated by unscathed, with Israel using Egypt as a teaching moment. They might have had their forces at the border attacked much like Egypt's, and been left much weaker (likely the feared outcome, hence the immediate strikes...use it or lose it thinking), but kept the Golan Heights, or Israel might have invaded and taken the Heights regardless. We only know what did happen. Alternative timelines are a Marvel thing. However, there is no arguing that Israel attacked Egypt in response to a possible attack, whereas Syria and Jordan responded to an actual attack on an ally. So the debate should be framed as whether Israel is entitled to keep the Golan Heights in light of these basic facts:
1.) Egypt, Syria, and Jordan were taking openly aggressive postures toward Israel
2.) Israel struck first, hitting Egypt and wiping out it's air force.
3.) Syria and Jordan responded with strikes against Israel, but were also crippled by Israeli strikes within hours of the Egypt attack.
4.) In the ensuing conflict, Israel took control of the Golan Heights.
If Israel is entitled to attack another nation as a defensive first strike, why aren't other nations entitled to attack Israel for the same reason?
If the defensive strike argument is valid, then should Israel get to keep land captured from those nations?
This all hinges greatly on whether you take the position that Israel's neighbors brought this on themselves by provoking Israel, or whether anything short of a military strike is insufficient justification for an act of war.
Hence the debate in some circles over Israel's claim to the territory.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)By expelling UN peacekeepers who had been stationed in the Sinai Peninsula since the Suez conflict, and announcing a blockade of Israel's access to the Red Sea (international waters) via the Straits of Tiran, which Israel considered an act of war.
Syria attacked, lost and lost some land, if they think they can take it back they are welcome to try if they want to lose some more land.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)Does that apply to every instance where a country has taken territory of another country and moved its own people there? Or is it just Israel, coz you think it's somehow exempt from all international rules of law?
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlements-and-international-law/
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)However if they invade you like the syrians did and you keep some of their land well tough s*** shouldn't be invading people
