Judge grants Trump bid for special master in document search
Last edited Mon Sep 5, 2022, 12:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: AP
WASHINGTON (AP) A federal judge on Monday granted a request by former President Donald Trumps legal team to appoint a special master to review documents seized by the FBI from his Florida home last month and also temporarily halted the Justice Departments use of the records for investigative purposes.
The decision by U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon came despite the objections of the Justice Department, which said an outside legal expert was not necessary in part because officials had already completed their review of potentially privileged documents. The judge had previously signaled her inclination to approve a special master, asking a department lawyer during arguments this month, What is the harm?
The appointment is likely to slow the pace of the departments investigation into the presence of top-secret information at Mar-a-Lago given the judges directive that the Justice Department may not for the moment use any of the seized materials for investigative purposes. But it is not clear that it will have any significant effect on any investigative decisions or the ultimate outcome of the probe.
Cannon, who was nominated to the bench by Trump in 2020, said she would permit the continuation of a risk assessment of the documents being conducted by the U.S. intelligence community.
Read more: https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-mar-a-lago-government-and-politics-bc980316f80f88620b92e5666f96251c
Link to order (PDF) - https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/22275109/specialmaster_order0905.pdf
Article being updated. Original article and headline -
WASHINGTON (AP) A federal judge on Monday granted a request by former President Donald Trumps legal team to appoint a special master to review documents seized by the FBI during a search of his Florida home last month.
The decision by U.S. District Judge Aileen Cannon came despite the objections of the Justice Department, which said an outside legal expert was not necessary in part because officials had already completed their review of potentially privileged documents. The judge had previously signaled her inclination to approve a special master, asking a department lawyer during arguments this month, What is the harm?
The appointment may slow the pace of the departments investigation into the presence of top-secret information at Mar-a-Lago, but it is unlikely to affect any investigative decisions or the ultimate outcome of the probe.
pnwmom
(109,391 posts)the Court also temporarily enjoins the Government from reviewing and using the seized materials for investigative purposes
pending completion of the special masters review or further Court order.
IF IN ANY OF HIS "PERSONAL or ATTY PRIVILEGED ITEMS" he basically confesses to wrong doing... those can be removed and he can hold up use of the findings.
in2herbs
(3,028 posts)action to render her decision moot, either by arresting tfg or by arresting the higher ups on his food chain and offering them a plea in exchange for their evidence.
IMO this decision cannot be decided by this current USSC. Garland must do whatever is necessary to render this judge's decision moot ASAP.
Lulu KC
(3,051 posts)Joinfortmill
(15,826 posts)Evolve Dammit
(18,044 posts)Novara
(6,056 posts)Because the attorney-client privilege belongs to the client, the client's intent determines whether the exception applies. Most courts will apply the exception even if the attorney had no knowledge of, and didn't participate in, the actual crime or fraud.
The crime-fraud exception applies if:
the client was in the process of committing or intended to commit a crime or fraudulent act, and
the client communicated with the lawyer with intent to further the crime or fraud, or to cover it up.
There's more n the link.
in2herbs
(3,028 posts)motions for a crime that a person is accused of and the trial judge decides whether privilege exists and whether or not that particular piece of evidence can be allowed to convict the person. There is no trial currently pending for any of tfg's crimes. If allowed to proceed the SM can conduct a trial about executive privilege but the SM can also delay the whole process leaving tfg free to continue his crimes.
I don't know what international court could do it, but if there is one (Hauge??) maybe tfg's espionage should be taken out of USA control. Just wondering .....
blueknight73
(300 posts)get appealed and be overturned by the appellate court in D.C. where it has jurisdiction
Wednesdays
(19,357 posts)NYC Liberal
(20,324 posts)Thats the only way.
This election is as important and the last one was. If not even more so.
VMA131Marine
(4,465 posts)Every previous president can exert executive privilege over the incumbent?
Plus if SCOTUS upheld this they would be overturning their own precedents; not that that has stopped them before. However, the Constitution is very clear that there can be only one President at a time so it should be obvious that no previous president can claim executive privilege without the consent of the current executive
and Joe Biden has said he does not consent.
Wednesdays
(19,357 posts)to give TFG what he wants.
William Seger
(10,927 posts)... but the special master won't have to justify any decisions.
Walleye
(34,004 posts)gab13by13
(24,039 posts)Walleye
(34,004 posts)gab13by13
(24,039 posts)I got tossed because I called Trump a Putin puppet. I guess I touched a nerve with them?
Walleye
(34,004 posts)lostnfound
(16,464 posts)Ugh. Absurd.
Lonestarblue
(11,350 posts)It is not Donald Trump, and Biden has already said that he will not use executive privilege to shield Trump. One one hope a federal judge would follow this rule, but of course shes a Trump flunky.
Can the DOJ appeal this decision?
kelly1mm
(5,006 posts)as the appeals process takes time (months usually) and will probably be appealed from the Circuit Court to the USSC after that.
The notion that executive privilege (the legal precept that conversations/notes/documents between the President and his/her advisors that are done during the Presidency and that the President whishes to keep private) 'expire' the minute the President leaves office is not correct. If so, the day after President Obama left office all conversations/notes/documents pertaining to advice by his advisors would have been subject to subpoena/congressional review. If that was the case it would defeat the purpose of executive privilege which is to have frank, honest deliberations/debate with the President. If that ONLY would be in effect while that President was in office it would severely limit the quality of the conversations.
Obviously any conversations/notes/documents prepared pre or post Presidency are not subject to executive privilege.
In any event I foresee these issues going all the way to the USSC for clarification. I also think DJT may well pass on before this is fully adjudicated.
Calista241
(5,595 posts)She talks about how the SC heard a case just this year, and that implies that former presidents can assert exec privilege, even though Biden won in that specific case.
Thats going to have to be litigated to overcome this judges opinion on appeal.
bucolic_frolic
(45,890 posts)LoisB
(8,045 posts)SoFloDenny
(58 posts)LoisB
(8,045 posts)EndlessWire
(7,107 posts)before the Government even had a chance to file response papers.
jalan48
(14,150 posts)corporate media.
hamsterjill
(15,435 posts)Totally expected this. This is why some of us here have been and continue to insist that time is of the essence!
jalan48
(14,150 posts)what Trump has done gets watered down with the passing of time and the argument becomes a legal back and forth.
leaves a lot of room to spin, spin, spin 'their truth' until one pie hits the wall and sticks. I do have some faith the DOJ anticipated this early outcome and has all the proof it needs, no matter a so-called
'special masterba'...oh sorry I digress. All this is a trump diversion and fading hail mary hopes for safety. I just don't believe this decision by a trump judicial sycophant will alter trump's ultimate early fate.
He's still going down!!! Our experiment in Democracy has just grown stronger over the centuries against all enemies foreign and domestic.
Chainfire
(17,757 posts)thing is the gift that keeps on giving.
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)It does appear no other judges were available at the time and it was a pool of one.
Hardly random.
Nasruddin
(801 posts)Thanks Mel Brooks
kairos12
(13,156 posts)They will object to whomever is appointed to be Special Master about 9 times.
gab13by13
(24,039 posts)the process of appointing the SM will drag out.
Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)
Chainfire This message was self-deleted by its author.
old guy
(3,292 posts)The justice system is a sad unfunny joke.
CBHagman
(17,104 posts)We voted his rear end out of office, and since that time there has been a stream of revelations about his various corrupt activities. None of this is going away with the granting of a special master, and that can be appealed anyway.
We shouldn't make Trump more powerful than he is or has been. He does not in fact get away with everything, and his sleazy delaying and obstruction tactics work until they don't.
Here's a bit of what's going on. It's not the most updated list, but it covers a lot.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/08/donald-trump-fbi-raid-explainer
Ferrets are Cool
(21,399 posts)Until THAT happens, it's a win for him.
SheltieLover
(58,659 posts)Now there's a threat to our country!
Joinfortmill
(15,826 posts)msfiddlestix
(7,613 posts)I have to say, that it appears (to this reader) this decision reported out on a major national holiday is no coincidence.
Someone mentioned, she handed that down before the DOJ was able to file a response to the previous motion?
Not surprised, but terribly disappointed and does nothing to advance what little optimism I attempted to hang on to and nurture.
msfiddlestix
(7,613 posts)emulatorloo
(45,484 posts)rsdsharp
(9,849 posts)which is what hes trying to do. He thinks executive privilege means the documents are his. Well see what the 11th Circuit has to say. However, Trump appointed six of the current judges half the court, not counting senior members.
emulatorloo
(45,484 posts)Seems like she is in over her head or fears some deranged MAGA will murder her.
atreides1
(16,286 posts)She owes Trump and the Federalist Society...that's how she got the nomination...now is the time to pay back what she owes!!!
emulatorloo
(45,484 posts)Plenty up Trump judges upheld the law when it came to his baseless lawsuits claiming the election was stolen.
But I guess this one doesnt see it that way.
atreides1
(16,286 posts)Unfortunately she isn't one of them...and she comes off as stupid, because she doesn't seem to understand what the concept of Executive privilege is...even after it was explained to her by the DOJ!
Judges are suppose to be impartial and uphold the law...but as we saw with the Dobbs decision...that ideal doesn't exist among some federal jurists...yes they all took an oath...but an oath is only effective when the person taking it, intends to honor that oath!!!
Botany
(71,842 posts)And that is the point. End of story.
A fucking Trump judge.
"Aileen Mercedes Cannon is a judge on the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida. She was nominated by President Donald Trump (R) on May 21, 2020, and confirmed by a U.S. Senate vote of 56-21 on November 12, 2020."
https://ballotpedia.org/Aileen_Cannon
FoxNewsSucks
(10,740 posts)in2herbs
(3,028 posts)espionage charges. If we can't get all offenders in the espionage food chain we need to get him and the American people deserve to be assured that the law applies to all.
yankee87
(2,294 posts)45 is still the petulant man-child getting his way. Like what was said before, come on McDonalds, do your thing
agingdem
(8,433 posts)the DOJ appeals, maybe...but a special master does not prohibit an indictment...a special master does not negate espionage, stealing classified documents...executive privilege does not apply to a former president...lawyer/client sort of...
should be interesting to see who Judge Trump Kiss-Ass Aileen appoints as a special master..
in2herbs
(3,028 posts)his thought process about how executive privilege has some application to presidents even after they leave office. So, there's a real risk of this gets to the USSC on the basis of executive privilege.
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)It is essentially the same thing as conducting a search and finding nothing.
No obstruction, no espionage, no theft of govt property.
Evidence is the linchpin of an indictment.
agingdem
(8,433 posts)Garland is not going to allow Trump to walk away from this...
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)Simple case. They seized something that is clearly att-client priv that discusses his guilt.
It would be deemed privileged and the govt couldn't even mention it. If that was all they had, it couldn't be used. They couldn't even use what was in it as the basis to investigate other avenues to get to the same point.
So with the judge refusing to allow them to use it in investigations, she has effectively stopped them cold.
The grand jury is technically an investigation forum.
kelly1mm
(5,006 posts)seized documents in any prosecution until the Special Master reviews them and clears them as not being privileged.
agingdem
(8,433 posts)we can express our outrage but we have no choice but to allow Garland to do his job...today is a holiday..courthouses are closed so to speak (yes, I know filings are done online)..let's see what shakes out tomorrow...
kelly1mm
(5,006 posts)on its way ultimately to the USSC. All the while time keeps slipping by and this process (just the Special Master appointment and review) could easily take years, and even if fast tracked it could take many months. Then, assuming the Special Master gets appointed and says 90% of the documents are not privileged. That too will get appealed which again could easily take years, and even if fast tracked it could take many months. I am certainly seeing a good possibility that we won't have a resolution to just the privilege questions on these seized documents till after the 2024 elections .....
paleotn
(18,799 posts)Documents were recovered. It's known what he had. For all practical purposes, this is moot and delays nothing. Appoint 10K "special masters" and nothing in the equation changes. Bad lawyers and a dumb client. Thus, what's the harm? None really.
gab13by13
(24,039 posts)who are in the process of being outed.
What this will do is further erode the trust that our foreign allies have in us. The rest of the world is watching what is happening to our country, they get it, they indict their leaders when they commit crimes, our country protects law breakers with partisan judges.
paleotn
(18,799 posts)it in no way hampers ongoing investigations. Investigations into exactly what you mentioned. Plus, we've had lunatic judges sprinkled around the country since the Republic was founded.
packman
(16,296 posts)Or are we going to have another example of his , yet to be shown, tax returns. Delay, delay , delay,etc.
gab13by13
(24,039 posts)arguing over whether a traitor should be indicted within 60 days of an election when he isn't even on the ballot and meanwhile one of his fascist judges makes a totally partisan decision.
This will fucking delay things, fuck the AP writer who wrote this. Why don't they invoke executive privilege for Trump, a fucking private citizen, and then we can just allow him to keep the documents?
The Magats are playing by different rules. How many former experts were wrong in saying that judge Cannon was going to drop the special master? She is owned by Trump and we don't have a MSM that will report the truth, report what is happening, report that we are sliding into fascism.
spudspud
(521 posts)Ponietz
(3,245 posts)Ill say it. It looks as though she gave Acosta advice on protecting Epstein.
peppertree
(22,604 posts)If deSatan gets in, my money's on her being kicked up all the way to the Supreme Court.
Submariner
(12,605 posts)for 8 hours a day and make sure his rest breaks are a minimum.
brooklynite
(96,882 posts)gab13by13
(24,039 posts)dsc
(52,492 posts)if not since this will help delay the investigation so that no indictment and trial are possible until after 2024 it will prevent the trial forever and ever and ever.
jmowreader
(51,159 posts)The Special Master is not being given access to any of the documents I declassified after leaving office. This witch hunt must end immediately and the rightful winner of the 2020 election must be allowed to take office today!
Or, if they find someone cleared high enough to review all the SCI Trump stole
The Deep State special master, a puppet of Illegitimate So-Called President Sleepy Joe Biden, refuses to return to me all the documents I declassified after leaving office. This witch hunt must end immediately and the rightful winner of the 2020 election must be allowed to take office today!
Six months from now, we will read this TrumpTweet:
Im waiting in my cold cell as the bell begins to chime. Reflecting on my past life and it doesnt have much time for at five oclock they take me to the gallows pole. The sands of time for me are running low thanks to Illegitimate President Sleepy Joe and the Deep State, who have always hated me. This witch hunt must end immediately and the rightful winner of the 2020 election must be allowed not only to take office immediately but I must be allowed to serve ten more terms because of all the harassment and abuse Your Favorite President has been put through!
At 5:15 pm, the following TrumpTweet will be issued:
Ding dong, the witch is dead. Signed, Dark Brandon.
orangecrush
(21,051 posts)orangecrush
(21,051 posts)I know it's bullshit, but can DOJ appeal?
How can a judge shut down a criminal investigation?
Can they have the judge sanctioned?
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)They needed the order to issue it.
But it's a slow.process to a conservative court. First a 3 judge panel that will take months to get to a ruling.
Best case is they side with doj and the full court and scotus decline to hear further appeals. Up to a year.
Worst case is they side with carrol, even if just partially, and then it goes to the full court and then scotus.
Years.
Baitball Blogger
(47,493 posts)BlueIdaho
(13,582 posts)Can this be quickly appealed?
And
Who appoints the Special Bastard?
people
(665 posts)Judge ordered the parties to meet and confer as to who should be the special master and, if they can't agree, each of them should submit names to her and she will decide who the special master should be and then appoint that person.
BlueIdaho
(13,582 posts)Given her track record, there is no reason to believe she will be impartial in this matter.
oldsoftie
(13,386 posts)idiot trump should have asked for one on the first day. But he's an idiot & he hired real estate lawyers who also didnt know to do it
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)Shuts the doj down cold.
Novara
(6,056 posts)Emphasis mine. They can still indict.
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)They hear evidence, ask questions, get more information, and finally vote on an indictment. But at the heart of what they do is investigate.
The doj can't present it to them, or even to a court, until the master determines if it is protected.
They are stopped colduntil an appeal goes their way and they get an injunction freeing them from the order.
VMA131Marine
(4,465 posts)Places she wont have jurisdiction.
bluestarone
(17,869 posts)THIS is the time!
Novara
(6,056 posts)... attorney-client privilege, and it doesn't apply in the commission of crimes.
There's a good chance the DOJ ALREADY KNOWS which crimes are included in the material. They've already reviewed it themselves and they know what evidence of criming is there. They don't have to stop their review because they've already completed it.
However, it does slow shit down because I would assume this special master person needs to be vetted for security clearance. For this reason alone this decision is a complete farce. The fact that the material has already been reviewed just adds to the farce.
I want to see if Garland has the guts to indict now or let himself be pushed around by this baby-man's tantrums. I'm hoping for the former but I'm afraid of the latter.
getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)It doesn't matter what the law is apparently, she ruled it so.
Maybe it will get changed on appeal. But that could take a year.
Novara
(6,056 posts)Ummm, no. That is the law. A judge can't change the law.
This will be appealed.
LetMyPeopleVote
(152,194 posts)Tadpole Raisin
(1,344 posts)if she rejected the request.
May an appeal court slap her down for stupidity.
Paladin
(28,615 posts)gab13by13
(24,039 posts)I should be golfing but it's raining.
When will people understand that the tactic is to delay, it has nothing to do with evidence. There is more than enough evidence to indict Trump on obstruction re: the stolen documents and lying to the FBI. This decision puts a hold on that.
wildman76
(292 posts)Traildogbob
(9,678 posts)Be charged with obstruction, collusion and accessory to espionage??
I know the answer, Justice and laws only apply to minions that pay the salaries of all these traitorous pricks from local government to the Fucking top.
Fuck the National Anthem, Fuck the Pledge, and even seeing the flag anymore only makes me feel nauseous of GQP MAGAs taking it over. It would not surprise me anymore if the Military arrests all Dems in power and installs trump for life with his slimy spawn appointments to every position. MTG will be AG.
I am afraid we slept way too long over the last 50+ years to ever wake. This is what we WOKE up to. This damn AMERIKKKa.
Heather MC
(8,084 posts)How convenient
Ponietz
(3,245 posts)Heather MC
(8,084 posts)He gets to be slee,y in background will Trump is the loud distraction
He and Lenard Leo are responsible for the horrible White Supremacist Court
err Supreme Court
Kablooie
(18,712 posts)He will get a MAGA jerk to keep this spinning in the courts until after 2024 when he expects to be president again.
Its way to early to celebrate his downfall. It still may never come.
SheltieLover
(58,659 posts)moonshinegnomie
(2,824 posts)no need to know the actual contents of any documents. he was subpoenaed to deliver any docs marked classified. he refused and so they got the search warrant.
it doesnt matter the contents of the docs ,he failed to turn them over despite an subpoena. thats obstruction
arrest him and hold him without bail as a flight risk
Justice matters.
(7,357 posts)Whether his dirty underwears were subpoenaed by the DOJ or his love letters to Kim Jung Un is irrelevant.
He refused to send them back when ordered to. The legal procedure is to obey the subpoena and THEN litigate to get them back all he wanted up to the supremely corrupt six to his treasonous heart's content.
Charge the orange danger to National Security and democracy NOW. Bring him in and interrogate him about what he did with the missing documents and why he stole them, and refused to comply with the DOJ Subpoena (and he better not LIE again).
Raven123
(5,825 posts)Not sure how big a deal this is . No indictment likely until after the 2022 election, anyway. Intelligence review continues. No matter what she rules, its possible they may develop evidence regarding the espionage case just through this review.
The question will be how fast the special master is forced to act.
ET Awful
(24,769 posts)With classified government documents, wouldn't that, in itself, help prove a case for mishandling of classified materials?
WestMichRad
(1,564 posts)orangecrush
(21,051 posts)getagrip_already
(16,930 posts)But that doesn't mean there aren't magats all over the country with legal degrees and security clearances.
Mike flynn's brother, people of millers staff, former doj toadies.
Lots of places she can find a worm.
EndlessWire
(7,107 posts)from amongst the list of proposed candidates. I'll bet that the two lists will be so opposed that we will see her pick someone from Plaintiff's list, stating what's the harm...and then she'll get to confer with the SM and rule in his favor.
Somewhere in those papers it was stated that the SM could be vetted for clearances, which would account for a substantial delay. That's not how it should work. I am also concerned with paper duplication. There should be no copying of papers.
In view of this tainted process, which of course I am only anticipating, I say we ask Hillary to serve. I rally trust no one now, but I trust her. I'd take Bill, but I don't think he looks well.
The SM will be no one we've ever met before.
orangecrush
(21,051 posts)And I'm also sure he has a few cards up his sleeve.
colorado_ufo
(5,887 posts)Surprise, surprise.
mn9driver
(4,519 posts)vlyons
(10,252 posts)Delay delay delay
mahatmakanejeeves
(59,868 posts)Link to tweet
Nasruddin
(801 posts)What this does is it gets the case caught in the gears of our ponderous judicial system.
Which was probably going to happen eventually anyway, but maybe it would have been better after the indictment.
The best thing that could happen is that the investigation is delayed for months or perhaps even years while litigation over appeals and findings takes place.
The worst thing that could happen is that the eventual arrival of the case before the SC could allow this partisan band to find a way to rule in such strong favor of Trump's position that the evidence is impossible to use - in other words, exonerating him.
orangecrush
(21,051 posts)Search the rest of his properties!
Ponietz
(3,245 posts)Use the ratchet and tighten.
orangecrush
(21,051 posts)And I'll bet he has a few cards up his sleeve.
dalton99a
(83,369 posts)Clearly there is reasonable cause
KS Toronado
(18,755 posts)SunSeeker
(53,181 posts)KS Toronado
(18,755 posts)lees1975
(5,207 posts)she was doing the guy who appointed her a favor. Should be removed from the bench.
Polybius
(16,892 posts)A Bush judge may have done the same thing. Removal won't happen.
GreenWave
(8,535 posts)orangecrush
(21,051 posts)DallasNE
(7,508 posts)The FBI announced that they would be fingerprinting each item to see who may have had access to the data. That takes time when 11,000 items are involved. Will the Special Master and staff know how to handle the material without compromising the fingerprints and possible DNA? Inadvertent alteration of evidence is still obstruction. Who would want the job under the circumstances?
calimary
(83,491 posts)She was appointed to that bench by trump. She got that job from him. he asked forAnd the first chance she gets, she gives him the favorable ruling he asked for (and was probably expecting because of his sense of eternal entitlement). I CANNOT see this as anything but a thank-you note to her "benefactor."
BlueJac
(7,838 posts)ificandream
(10,215 posts)I honestly thought Trump's request was too ridiculous to be accepted. Totally insane.
machoneman
(4,118 posts)Last edited Mon Sep 5, 2022, 04:21 PM - Edit history (1)
..the top secret docs TFG stole. No way, Jose! Instead, they will take this up the line and stuff this dork of a judge to the nether regions. Besides, unless they have total control of a master even if they agree, no way these docs are seen by anyone TFG agrees too. Game, set, match!
Wednesdays
(19,357 posts)cstanleytech
(26,811 posts)clearly had a conflict of interest as Trump nominated her.
28 U.S. Code § 455
Any justice, judge, or magistrate judge of the United States shall disqualify himself in any proceeding in which his impartiality might reasonably be questioned.
onenote
(43,964 posts)cstanleytech
(26,811 posts)ruling in my opinion smells like an attempt to obstruct the investigation as payment to Trump for nominating her.
dalton99a
(83,369 posts)Bayard
(23,614 posts)AntiFascist
(12,840 posts)JI7
(90,110 posts)AntiFascist
(12,840 posts)and Trump and is the worst IDIOT of them all, leading the rest of the MAGAt idiots!
867-5309.
(1,189 posts)is part of the witch hunt.
LudwigPastorius
(10,383 posts)...licking Trump's taint in the hope that he returns to the White House to finish turning this country into a theocratic dictatorship and giving her a seat on the Supreme Court.
truthisfreedom
(23,295 posts)I wanna see two judges duking it out over this nonsense.
zanana1
(6,254 posts)spike jones
(1,747 posts)A few weeks ago, a dear old friend, a Republican-appointed federal judge, trying to console me during a moment of despair about the future of our country, said to me The Judiciary branch is strong and will hold. When I expressed skepticism, he leaned toward me, looked me dead in the eye, and said as firmly as he could without shouting: We are strong and WE. WILL. HOLD. ...
Oh wow, did he say hold or fold?
Me now, if it does not hold, democracy is dead in USA.
UT_democrat
(143 posts)I'm sure this is just all part of the 3-D chess game that is being played. Or... we have already jumped the shark and its all over but the shouting. Oh well, Just vote.