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BumRushDaShow

(170,588 posts)
Thu May 11, 2023, 03:55 PM May 2023

18-to-20-year-olds can't be barred from buying handguns, judge rules

Last edited Thu May 11, 2023, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: Washington Post

A federal judge in Virginia has declared unconstitutional a set of laws and regulations that prohibit federally licensed firearms dealers from selling handguns to 18-to-20-year-olds, finding that the measures violated the Second Amendment. “Because the statutes and regulations in question are not consistent with our Nation’s history and tradition, they, therefore, cannot stand,” U.S. District Judge Robert E. Payne, who sits in Richmond, concluded in a 71-page opinion.

Gun-control advocates say the decision, if allowed to stand, would significantly increase gun access for a population that research shows is more impulsive and responsible for a disproportionate number of fatal shootings. But attorneys on both sides of the case said they expected the Justice Department to appeal and request a stay, which would prevent Payne’s ruling from taking effect while higher courts weigh the case.

Elliott M. Harding, the attorney who argued to nullify the laws and regulations, said people under 21 years old are, for the moment, not allowed to purchase handguns from licensed dealers because a final order had not been entered. The judge set a May 18 deadline for attorneys to submit recommendations “for future proceedings in this matter.”

Although 18-to-20-year-olds previously could buy handguns in private sales — or have a parent purchase a weapon for them — the decision issued Wednesday would dismantle a legal framework that for decades has prevented licensed dealers from selling handguns “to teenagers,” said William T. Clark, an attorney with the Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence, which filed an amicus brief in the case calling for the laws at issue to be upheld.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2023/05/11/judge-rules-handgun-sales-allowed-18-year-olds/



Article updated.

Original article/headline -

18- to 20-year-olds can't be barred from buying handguns, judge rules

A federal judge in Virginia on Wednesday declared unconstitutional a set of federal laws and regulations that prohibit federally licensed firearms dealers from selling handguns to 18- to 20-year olds, finding the measures violated the Second Amendment. “Because the statutes and regulations in question are not consistent with our Nation’s history and tradition, they, therefore, cannot stand,” U.S. District Judge Robert E. Payne, who sits in Richmond, concluded in a 71-page opinion.

Attorneys on both sides of the case said they expected the Justice Department to appeal the decision and request a stay, which would prevent Payne’s ruling from taking immediate effect while higher courts weigh the case.

Although 18- to 20-year-olds previously could buy handguns in private sales — or have a parent purchase a weapon for them — the decision Wednesday, if left unchallenged, would dismantle a legal framework that for decades has prevented licensed dealers from selling handguns “to teenagers,” said William T. Clark, an attorney with the Giffords Law Center, which filed an amicus brief in the case calling for the laws at issue to be upheld. “It’s a significant decision — we disagree with the outcome,” Clark said, adding that “there is compelling scientific evidence showing that teenagers are more impulsive and face unique elevated dangers from firearms.”

Payne, who was nominated to the bench by President George H.W. Bush, repeatedly cited the Supreme Court’s decision in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v. Bruen, a ruling from the high court’s conservative majority that expanded the right to bear arms last year. The plaintiff in the Virginia case, John Corey Fraser, was 20 years old when he attempted to buy a Glock 19x handgun from a federally licensed dealer in May 2022 and was turned away, according to the lawsuit he filed last year. He challenged the constitutionality of the Gun Control Act of 1968 and federal regulations from the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives (ATF) that limit the sale of handguns to adults 21 years and older.
34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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18-to-20-year-olds can't be barred from buying handguns, judge rules (Original Post) BumRushDaShow May 2023 OP
No frontal lobe? No problem!! Scrivener7 May 2023 #1
If they want to handle firearms, they'll have to join a militia well regulated by the local person i Karadeniz May 2023 #2
The "enhance the vilolence" ruling. Chainfire May 2023 #3
What. The. Absolute... GB_RN May 2023 #4
The quote you are looking for is melm00se May 2023 #9
For Accuracy's Sake, Yes. GB_RN May 2023 #11
The ruling is the judge applying the standard set in Bruen DetroitLegalBeagle May 2023 #13
That Sounds Like a TERRIBLE Idea... GB_RN May 2023 #16
Actually it is legal to own FA, mortars, and rpg's thatdemguy May 2023 #12
I Knew That It Was Legal To Own Some Automatics... GB_RN May 2023 #14
No, destructive devices are still allowed thatdemguy May 2023 #18
Here's the rule jmowreader May 2023 #29
The weapon is not considered a "destructive device." The ammo, on the other hand, is. Angleae May 2023 #19
You can legally own the ammo too DetroitLegalBeagle May 2023 #20
I don't know...having an M109 could be a very handy thing jmowreader May 2023 #26
"On target!" GB_RN May 2023 #30
Why waste ammo? jmowreader May 2023 #31
Because... GB_RN May 2023 #34
Any law violates the vaguely defined "shall not be infringed" IronLionZion May 2023 #5
Need to pull out all the regulatory stops in disrupting gun commerce. Frasier Balzov May 2023 #6
Why not OK sales to 16 year-olds? Or 14 y/o's - isn't that how old Johnny Tremain was? TheRickles May 2023 #7
Those are not adults. former9thward May 2023 #17
What prevents under 21s from buying alcohol? dickthegrouch May 2023 #8
Is Alcohol Mentioned Anywhere In The Constitution? -NT- ruet May 2023 #22
Is a well regulated militia mentioned anywhere in the Constitution? n/t Hope22 May 2023 #23
One of These Is Not Like the Other. ruet May 2023 #24
Two places jmowreader May 2023 #27
So, the Gun Control Act of 1968 is about to be invalidated by SCOTUS, maxsolomon May 2023 #10
There is a theory that J_William_Ryan May 2023 #15
Automatic weapons remain regulated Kaleva May 2023 #33
More guns.. Historic NY May 2023 #21
ive said this before moonshinegnomie May 2023 #25
Let a liberal city codify Tombstone, AZ's gun control regulations... jmowreader May 2023 #28
Automatic weapons remain illegal for them to buy Kaleva May 2023 #32

Karadeniz

(24,749 posts)
2. If they want to handle firearms, they'll have to join a militia well regulated by the local person i
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:01 PM
May 2023

charge. I'm sure being a moron is grounds for impeachment.

GB_RN

(3,570 posts)
4. What. The. Absolute...
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:03 PM
May 2023

Last edited Thu May 11, 2023, 05:44 PM - Edit history (2)

Fuck? 🤦‍♂️

The SCOTUS has NEVER held that there cannot be some restrictions on purchasing and ownership of firearms. What’s next? A ruling that says the law banning private ownership of fully automatic weapons is unconstitutional? Or ammosexuals have the right to mortars, howitzers and RPGs? I mean, based on (In)Justice Scammy Alito’s* faulty logic, because these weren’t mentioned in the Constitution, then they can’t be regulated…🙄

*Originally had Uncle Slappy here. But Alito wrote the opinion, not Thomas. Of course, it’s not like there’s a lot of difference between them.

melm00se

(5,164 posts)
9. The quote you are looking for is
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:54 PM
May 2023
Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/07-290.ZS.html

GB_RN

(3,570 posts)
11. For Accuracy's Sake, Yes.
Thu May 11, 2023, 05:37 PM
May 2023

But rulings like this one fly in the face of those “longstanding prohibitions” and again, based on Alito’s “logic” in the repeal of Roe, that because abortion wasn’t mentioned in the Constitution, it couldn’t be regulated at the federal level. I could easily see Alito, Uncle Slappy, et al., make the same illogical leap that the same thing would go for any type of firearm that’s not at the technological level of the black powder musket.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,510 posts)
13. The ruling is the judge applying the standard set in Bruen
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:17 PM
May 2023

The Bruen decision set the new standard that needs to be used when judging the constitutionality of gun laws. The old 2 step test, where the judge could consider the good outcomes of the law, can no longer be used. Now, it doesn't matter what the effects of the law are. The law must have a widespread historical analogue.

GB_RN

(3,570 posts)
16. That Sounds Like a TERRIBLE Idea...
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:40 PM
May 2023

This isn’t sarcasm aimed at you, so please don’t take offense: I’m a nurse, not a lawyer, but I still have to know how to think critically and logically in order to save people’s lives on a daily basis. From what I see, the end result of this legal doctrine on legitimate gun control efforts is going to be all kinds of bad.

The people who come up with this shit should have to view the bodies of people who are victims of the weapons the are helping the gun industry foist upon the rest of us.

thatdemguy

(620 posts)
12. Actually it is legal to own FA, mortars, and rpg's
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:02 PM
May 2023

It just takes a bunch of paper work and a 200 buck tax along with a long wait.

Now the machine guns that can be owned by civilians have to have been made before 1986, but the mortars, rps etc can be made new these days.

GB_RN

(3,570 posts)
14. I Knew That It Was Legal To Own Some Automatics...
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:30 PM
May 2023

Under certain circumstances; not just anyone can buy one at any time, just because. However, the Gun Control Act of 1968 amended the National Firearms Act of 1935 to add language prohibiting destructive devices. That would include active RPGs, howitzers, etc., would it not?

If I’m wrong on this, fine. But that’s a huge miss on the part of any legislation, if I am. That would mean any whacko or would-be-terrorist could get his hands on some serious destructive power should he choose.

thatdemguy

(620 posts)
18. No, destructive devices are still allowed
Thu May 11, 2023, 07:32 PM
May 2023

I dont know all the rules, but you can still buy grenade launchers. Buying the grenades is hard, there is a lot of rules for those as well. There are items like smokes, and smaller ones that are basically big fireworks that are easy to get. Some stuff about storage requirements, and just trying to get a manufacturer to even sell em to a civilian for the dangerous stuff.

jmowreader

(53,264 posts)
29. Here's the rule
Fri May 12, 2023, 02:22 PM
May 2023

An M203 with a 40mm barrel is a Class III Destructive Device. It has to be transferred over a NFA tax stamp, and every high explosive round you want to own must be transferred over its own tax stamp. However, you can buy all the 40mm flare and smoke cartridges you want.

There is a version of this weapon with a 37mm barrel. No HE cartridges have ever been made for this, just flares and smoke. As far as the BATF is concerned, it is not a destructive device so you can buy them over the same Form 4473 that is used for regular guns.

Angleae

(4,810 posts)
19. The weapon is not considered a "destructive device." The ammo, on the other hand, is.
Thu May 11, 2023, 07:32 PM
May 2023

All you can legally own is a hollow tube.

DetroitLegalBeagle

(2,510 posts)
20. You can legally own the ammo too
Thu May 11, 2023, 09:25 PM
May 2023

$200 tax, the usual NFA paperwork, plus having proper storage and compliance with all other explosive requirements. And this would be for each explosive. So it gets expensive fast. Plus, I don't think any manufacturer will sell them to civilians, so making your own is pretty much the only way to go.

jmowreader

(53,264 posts)
26. I don't know...having an M109 could be a very handy thing
Fri May 12, 2023, 02:09 PM
May 2023

It would certainly solve the Proud Boy problem in a right hurry…

“Democrat 22, this is Democrat 68, adjust fire. Grid JK123456. Target is fifty Proud Boys kicking the shit out of someone until he names three breakfast cereals. Immediate suppression.”

GB_RN

(3,570 posts)
34. Because...
Fri May 12, 2023, 05:20 PM
May 2023

I once read: “There’s no such thing as overkill: Anything worth breaking is worth breaking a lot.”😁

IronLionZion

(51,399 posts)
5. Any law violates the vaguely defined "shall not be infringed"
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:16 PM
May 2023

so might as well just repeal all laws and allow guns in prisons and schools and MAGA rallies too.

Frasier Balzov

(5,078 posts)
6. Need to pull out all the regulatory stops in disrupting gun commerce.
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:19 PM
May 2023

Whatever it takes to make firearms mercantilism economically impracticable.

former9thward

(33,424 posts)
17. Those are not adults.
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:48 PM
May 2023

We allow 18 year-olds to vote, sign contracts and most importantly join the military where we put a gun in their hands. And tell them to kill people with it. The guns we put in their hands are far more dangerous than any on the civilian market.

Maybe we should not allow military service until 25 or so. I would be in favor of that.

dickthegrouch

(4,566 posts)
8. What prevents under 21s from buying alcohol?
Thu May 11, 2023, 04:52 PM
May 2023

The supposed danger!
Another only in US restriction.
Alcohol can be purchase by 18's everywhere else.
Equal protection?
Not so much.

maxsolomon

(38,912 posts)
10. So, the Gun Control Act of 1968 is about to be invalidated by SCOTUS,
Thu May 11, 2023, 05:32 PM
May 2023

along with ATF regulations on Handgun age limits.

Next up, the National Firearms Act of 1934. Full-automatic weapons to be available without constraint.

Soon, within our lifetimes, the US will achieve Gun Omnipresence: guns everywhere at all times. Only then will Peace reign triumphant.

J_William_Ryan

(3,516 posts)
15. There is a theory that
Thu May 11, 2023, 06:32 PM
May 2023

Kavanaugh and Roberts would join the liberals to uphold some existing regulations although those regulations lack ‘historical tradition’ – such as laws that prohibit domestic abusers from possessing firearms.

The theory is inferred from Kavanaugh’s concurring opinion in Bruen.

There’s also speculation that the ‘historical tradition’ standard would be used only to invalidate AWBs and magazine capacity restrictions, allowing most other regulations to remain.

This is likely wishful thinking.

moonshinegnomie

(4,030 posts)
25. ive said this before
Fri May 12, 2023, 01:24 PM
May 2023

maybe its time to start withdrawing federal protection for these judges.
and start allowing guns in the courtroom.

watch how fast they change their tune....

jmowreader

(53,264 posts)
28. Let a liberal city codify Tombstone, AZ's gun control regulations...
Fri May 12, 2023, 02:13 PM
May 2023

It would be very hard to claim laws from the Frontier West didn’t conform to the history and traditions of the United States.

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