Netanyahu says Israel will agree to ceasefire

[TomClash]

Source: Haaretz

LIVE BLOG: Iron Dome intercepts rocket over Tel Aviv; Netanyahu says Israel will agree to ceasefire if rockets from Gaza stop
Since Operation Pillar of Defense began on Wednesday, Iron Dome system shoots down 243 rockets, with an 88 percent success rate. Some 460 rockets have landed in Israeli territory, 33 of them in built-up areas.
By Barak Ravid, Gili Cohen and Nir Hasson | Nov.18, 2012 | 12:37 AM | 9


As Operation Pillar of Defense entered its fifth day, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke over the weekend with U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, saying he had told both that he is prepared for a comprehensive cease-fire if the rocket fire from Gaza will stop.

Jerusalem residents received their first taste of rocket warnings over the weekend as terror groups fired more missiles on the south and at Tel Aviv, and the Israel Defense Forces continued to prepare for a possible ground invasion as Pillar of Defense ended its fourth day.

. . .

Over 60 rockets were fired at Israel on Saturday. While many of them were intercepted by the Iron Dome system, including rockets aimed at Sderot, Netivot, Ashdod, and Be'er Sheva, a 10-story building was hit in Ashdod at midday and a car was damaged during a barrage of rockets on that city.

LIVE BLOG

03:53 A.M. Palestinian media reports two children killed in an IAF strike in the Beit Lahiya area in Gaza (Haaretz)

02:55 A.M. Palestinians news agency Ma'an: Israeli airstrike damages complex of media offices in Gaza City injuring six journalists (Haaretz)

00:11 A.M. Palestinians say number of Gazans killed in operation rises to 45, 17 of them civilians (Haaretz)


Read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/live-blog-iron-dome-intercepts-rocket-over-tel-aviv-netanyahu-says-israel-will-agree-to-ceasefire-if-rockets-from-gaza-stop-1.478624

[barbtries]

1. hopefully.

hopefully.

[still_one]

2. It is a start, and if it happens they need to to start negotiations . This needs to stop

[Historic NY]

3. I have a friend I haven't heard from his last was rockets coming from GAza...

sirens sounding.

[garthranzz]

7. I have relatives in Israel

I haven't heard from them.

What Golda Meir said still applies.

[Violet_Crumble]

11. And what did Golda Meir say? n/t

[Puregonzo1188]

15. I am assuming the poster is referencing her quote to the affect that there will be peace when the

Palestinian people love their children as much they hate Israel.

As opposed to their will be peace when Israel stop's brutalizing the Palestinian people.

[Violet_Crumble]

35. That's what I thought they were referring to as well.

A bit of a disturbing thing to trot out when the OP lists two Palestinian children recently killed by the IDF....

[garthranzz]

51. Learn to spell

and learn some facts, not propaganda

[King_David]

28. Lots ,

Golda Meir Quotes

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/golda_meir.html

[garthranzz]

50. Here's the quote

"We can forgive the Arabs for killing our children. We cannot forgive them for forcing us to kill their children. We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."

[Scootaloo]

53. "Forcing us to kill their children."

Yes. They're forcing the Israelis to kill those kids. The Israelis, well, gosh, they just have no choice at all!

Sounds like the sort of lame self-justification you'd hear out of a drunk with a bloody knuckle;

"Baby, why'd you make me hit you? You know I hate when you make me hit you, I hate it so bad. Let me see that eye... let me see your fucking eye or you're getting it in the other one! ...now look what you made me do! You know I love you but baby you make it so hard!"

[Bohunk68]

56. Thanks Scootaloo.

I saw that too. There are those who always take things out of context. You will note that no one speaks of all the fighter/bomber planes of the Palestinian Air Defense Forces. Oh, that's right, there are none. No one speaks of all the money from the US DOD Black Budget that goes to Israel. We the American taxpayer have no idea of the total amount of money given to cut down centuries old olive orchards that stand in the way of illegal Israeli settlements and the water from the Jordan siphoned off before it gets to the Palestinian areas. It's all about Western Guilt over the doings of the Nazis.

[garthranzz]

57. Another sanctimonious, self-righteous know-nothing anti-Semite

headed for the permanent block category.

Congratulations.

When you have relatives killed, maimed and tortured because they're Jewish, and for no other reason, then open your mouth. (Yes, I have had relatives killed by Arab rockets.)

The ignorance and false equivalency of some on this site is disgusting.

[Scootaloo]

66. Yes, the ignorance and false equivalency of some is, indeed, shocking.

For instance, there are some DU posters that think atrocity justifies atrocity, that there is no possible, conceivable response to brutality other than brutality. These DU'ers are supporters of the destruction of innocent lives, because they believe in some sort of karmic scorecard, suffered for by entire peoples. Eye for an eye, blood debts, and revenge motivate the mindset of these DU posters, and I don't think that there's any outlook more ignorant than that.

[Puregonzo1188]

68. Are you referring to yourself? Arabs are semites too.

When you've had your relatives killed, maimed and tortured because they happen to have been inconveniently born on land that someone else thinks belongs to them open your mouth. Until them stop spewing hateful, racist propaganda.

[oberliner]

80. Anti-semitism means prejudice against Jewish people

It has nothing to do with Arabs being semites.

[johnq45]

77. Oh playin' the anti-Semite card!

If Israeli troops were here and set up Martial Law, patrolled our streets all armored up carrying automatic weapons with back up from armored vehicles and aircraft, breaking down our doors with impunity, stopping anyone at will, stealing our land and bull dozing our homes. Killing us, our children, neighbors, friends and family! Well I think I'd be angry enough to start killing them too. Rockets landing in their back yards would be the least of their problems! I’ve about had it with this so called ally of ours using American tax dollars to commit evil acts! And for a people who claim to be so wounded by the Nazi’s they sure are attempting to emulate them! The resemblances I see in videos and what I hear and read regarding what Israel is doing are incredible.

[Warren DeMontague]

98. That's the second time you've used the word "claim" with regard to what the Nazis did.

You do realize that the Holocaust is a historical fact, and not just a "claim", right?

[Walk away]

78. Most of the worlds Jews do not live in Israel.

Just because someone disagrees with the way Israel treats Palestinians does not make them anti-Semitic. I know more Jewish relatives and friends who abhor Israel's policies than support them.

Calling people names just makes their point for them.

[King_David]

91. 'I know more Jewish relatives and friends who abhor Israel's policies than support them. '

Interesting that, you sure because I do not know any personally, just read about a few.

[Walk away]

94. Yes I am quite sure. In fact the only Jewish people I know who are happy with Israel's....

treatment of Palestinians are either from Israel or have relatives there. Even my cousin who's daughter is a dentist in Tel Aviv thinks Bibi is taking the country in a terible direction. I live in an area with a large Jewish population and there are may highly educated and very liberal people of all sorts. In fact, the first person to point out to me that the Palestinians were being persecuted was a Jewish classmate of mine. Up until then I accepted the romantic Hollywood version of the Middle East.

I don't find it unusual that every Jew you know agrees with you. Your circle may be limited.

[King_David]

95. I attend huge gay synagogue

Very active volunteer with UJA , attend activities at JCC. My kids in Hebrew school and Jewish summer camp.. Etc etc

Yes very limited

[Walk away]

96. Sounds very religious. I can see why you meet many "like" thinkers. nt

[King_David]

97. Nah none of that is religious, Gay shul social

Guess you did not recognize every other thing is secular.

But prey tell where you found your Jewish sample opinion from?

[Walk away]

99. I take it from my friends, relitives and clients.

Three are producers at MSNBC and NBC. Several are classmates of mine from The New School of Social Research from the 80's who are still close friends. Many are from Teaneck High School (where the largest ethnic/religious group was Jewish) from my childhood who are now in all walks of life all over the world. My Aunt and Uncle, their children and their children's children. At least half of my clients (some of whom are Israeli) and 3 past boyfriends.

Not all of these people feel the same way and many are at varying levels on one side or the other but many of these people are the ones to open my eyes to the injustices suffered by the Palestinian people. In fact, I have never met a non Jew who was anything but an enthusiastic supporter of Israel. My Dad, who spent twenty years in the Middle East, is extremely pro-Israel and that is how I was raised.

I'm sure you aren't really interested in these things. You just want to accuse me of being a liar because you are completely invested in your side of the story. I have not accused you of lying about never meeting a Jew who was sympathetic to Palestinians even though I find it amazing. By the way, I did not intend to call the groups religious. I should have said that the people involved sounded religious. Half the Jews in the U.S. are not religious. Most don't belong to Jewish groups. Several of my Jewish friends are Buddhists but most are Atheists. They live secular and unaffiliated lives.

[leveymg]

58. Yesterday, you were outraged at my characterization of overreaction and use of excessive force

by the Israelis. You criticized me for pointing out that they are dropping 500 pound bombs on a city in response to some masked guys in Gaza shooting off weapons that are little more than bottle rockets topped with hand grenades.

Today, you characterize that cycle of violence as an abusive domestic relationship. What gives?

[Scootaloo]

67. I was astounded by your comparison of Qassam III's to model rockets, levey

I have no argument about the disproportions of power and military force in evidence. But I see no reason to pretend that Hamas is using "bottle rockets," or that their weapons are harmless. You don't need to exaggerate the disparity, in order to point it out.

[leveymg]

69. It's more accurate to compare Quassams to model rockets than to call them "missiles"

A missile is to a Palestinian rocket what this Israeli tank is to the desk it is about to crush.

[Scootaloo]

73. The point is, you don't need to downplay the threat of those rockets to make your point

Your argument of disproportionate force is completely valid without needing to call Hamas' weapons "bottle rockets" or compare them to cardboard tubes with nose cones, or whatever.

[Raksha]

61. Exactly!

Those Golda Meir quotes are still trotted out regularly by Israel apologists who consider them profound. I saw the "when the Arabs love their children more than they hate us" quote just today on a Jewish forum, and told the poster it's stupid and insensitive. First time I've ever done that. Maybe there was a time when I considered it profound myself?

[oberliner]

81. Except for the part with the rockets being launched at Israel from Gaza

It's like that didn't ever actually happen for some folks.

[Scootaloo]

84. Do you think blowing up Palestinians is a good solution to the problem?

[oberliner]

85. No

I would prefer a peaceful solution.

I think there needed to have been a comprehensive two-state solution years ago.

As for now, I think there should be a cease fire.

I have no idea why Hamas continues to risk the lives of so many of its people by launching rockets at Israel for no discernible reason other than to piss them off.

How and why they will finally stop doing this is unknown to me.

[Scootaloo]

86. Then don't pretend that Israel is being "forced" to kill Palestinians

As if Israel had no hand in anything. As if Israel can't help itself. As if Israel completely lacks any agency or say in what Israel does. It's as ludicrous as saying the same thing about Hamas.

Both Israel and Hamas are making their own choices freely. They are not being compelled by forces beyond their control. Hamas chooses to fire rockets. Israel chooses to respond by killing Palestinians. Hamas could instead choose to NOT do that. Israel could as well. However both sell themselves the myth of their own hands being forced by the other side, as if they're both helpless automotons being guided by their enemies.

That's bullshit, and people who promote that bullshit are enablers and accessories. For your part, Oberliner, rockets fired at Israel do not legitimatize mass murder of Palestinians. Hamas is not absolved of guilt, but they are Israeli bombs, dropped by Israeli hands, on hte orders of Israeli commanders. Nor do assassinations and oppressions justify the firing of rockets at Israel; Israel is likewise not absolved of their part of that situation, but these are weapons collected, constructed, and fired by hamas and like-minded groups of their own volition.

No one is being forced.

[oberliner]

90. I don't recall making any such statement

Of course Israel can decide what it wants to do.

Both sides are making very foolish choices in my opinion.

I don't agree with the terminology you are using (i.e. "mass murder of Palestinians&quot , but I do agree that there is a lot of blame to go around.

Edit to add: My comment about the rockets being ignored was in response to your beaten woman analogy which I do not believe was fair.

[Scootaloo]

92. I think it's perfectly fair

After all, the argument being made by Golda Meir in that quote, is that gosh, Israel loves the Arabs so much, and it's just unforgivable that the Arabs make the Israelis kill Arab children. It's not the Israeli's decision, oh heavens no, the Israelis are completely innocent, it's those Arabs who keep forcing them to be so brutal to the Arabs!

"I can't help but hit you" is the message given.

And you don't agree with my terminology? Okay. I don't care, though. Maybe you're happy to sweep them under the rug as "collateral damage" (you know, on par with potholes and broken windows) but I lack the ability to be so indifferent. When civilians die, I regard it as murder. When lots of them die, it's a mass murder. Spare me your "yeah but" justifications for why it's okay when Israel does it, because it's not okay, no matter whose bombs are doing it.

[JesterCS]

4. must not be in effect yet. Watching livestream of GAZA

bombs dropping still.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Still dropping in Israel too, so no, it is not in effect yet.

It likely will not be in effect until very early our time, if it happens today. It is 9:58PM, Saturday CST; it is 5:58AM, Sunday IST.

[oberliner]

6. Very good news

And, incidentally, just as I predicted...

[Puregonzo1188]

8. Maybe Israel should stop breaking ceasefires then.

[Sunlei]

10. do you expect any country to tolerate a rain of rockets? what if that was your home city?

[Puregonzo1188]

14. Do you expect any people should tolerate occupation, a blockade, or attacks on civilians?

Funny how my post mentioned that this time around, much like in 2008, it was Israel who broke the ceasefire you start mentioning tolerating rockets. No, I don't think any country would tolerate "a rain of rockets" hence why the Palestinians have responded the way they have to Israel's aggression. Is their response justified? No, not really.

[Sunlei]

22. Israel is not going away and I expect them to defend their people/country 100%

I also think the Palestinians deserve their own official country with a clear border. However, if anyone shoots missles at Israel, they will be crushed.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

29. Do the Palestinians have the right to defend their people and land 100%? nt

[PerceptionManagement]

60. The Apartheid Israeli official position is that the Palestinians don't have the right

[wellspring]

21. Sadly, some of the victim were Indian Hassidim

who were visiting Israel to attend a memorial for the Hassidim in India who died 4 years ago in the Mumbai massacre. This included Mira Ruth Sharf, emissary in New Delhi. She was killed exactly the same day on the Hebrew calendar, the first day of the month of Kislev, that Rabbi Gavriel and Rivka Holtzberg were killed in the Mumbai massacre. The Holtzbergs weren't just killed. They were tortured and sexually mutilated. Sharf was to attend a memorial for them that very day. Sharf's husband and their children were also injured in the missile attack, which occurred in the town of Kiryat Malachi. The Sharfs lived a life of great depravity and simplicity doing social work in India. They never did anything to anybody, and neither did the Holtzbergs.

Those shooting at them speak in the name of heaven. Like this:

&feature=player_embedded

Of course, we can't consider Jewish victims, because Jewish blood is considered cheap....

&feature=player_embedded

[azurnoir]

23. thanks I had not read who 1 of the 3 Israeli victims were

[wellspring]

24. Thank you.

I had not read the names of the two-thirds of the Pali victims who were innocent freedom fighters.

[azurnoir]

36. two thirds do you have a link for that?

by my reading civilian victims account for around half or about 25 to 29 I believe of the Palestinians killed were civilians with a good deal of those being children there were 2 more children killed a few hours ago, but thank you for your comment

[eyl]

39. According to the OP

17 civilians out of 45 Palestinian fatalities.

[azurnoir]

41. yeah well the OP also says that Netanyahu is considering a cease fire too

but that was disproved and the casualty count is going up quickly

[eyl]

40. Isn't that an oxymoron?

"Freedom fighters" would indicate they were, well, fighters, and thus not inccoent in this sense,

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Welcome to DU. I find something you said objectionable...

It's this: 'Of course, we can't consider Jewish victims, because Jewish blood is considered cheap.... '

Who's saying we can't consider Jewish victims? And if they did, why would we give a shit?

I think you'll find most people care about all the victims of the recent violence, regardless of what their religion is, or whether they're Israeli or Palestinian. All civilians lives are valuable, it's that simple...

[wellspring]

44. In the view of some there is a moral equivalency between the dead murderer and his dead victim.

Perhaps some need President Obama to stop funding Israel's Iron Dome missile defense system which shoots Palestinian missiles out of the sky because they need more dead Jews on the ground to start feeling sympathetic. Great idea.

Here are the simple folk just minding their lonesome throwing innocent stones at the Zionist oppressor ---

&feature=player_embedded

"Once the rockets are up who cares where they come down? That's not my department," says Werner Von Braun.

----Folksinger Tom Lehrer

[Violet_Crumble]

46. Do you want to back up and ask the question I asked you?

It's almost like you totally ignored it in some quest to get a winning streak of posting Youtube vids...


'In the view of some there is a moral equivalency between the dead murderer and his dead victim.'

So now yr going to explain to me how two dead Palestinian kids are 'dead murderers'. Because that's what yr saying, isn't it? That Palestinians killed by the IDF are murderers?

[Scootaloo]

25. Do you think blowing up Palestinians is a good solution to the problem?

Is it actually solving the issue?

[wellspring]

26. Do you think killing Nazis during WWII was a good solution to the problem?

After all. There is still anti-Semitism.

[Scootaloo]

27. So Palestinians are Nazis and deserve death, then?

Or is that just your thoughtless knee-jerk reactionary reply?

Does blowing up Palestinians make Israel safer?

[wellspring]

45. No, Palestinians read Mein Kampf which is a best seller among them

and their official TV channel calls Jews sons of pigs and monkeys and extols suicide bombers and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem spent World War II dining with Hitler and plotting extending Hitler's Final Solution to the Middle East and PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas did his doctoral thesis in the Soviet Union on the topic that the Holocaust is a myth because they are all just innocent youngins having fun...

[Scootaloo]

47. So do you think blowing up Palestinians is a good solution to the problem?

Still waiting for an answer.

[Violet_Crumble]

49. I wonder if I should lend them my copy of the Hasbara Handbook?

It does try to steer its eager readers through the minefield of pissing off an audience by not answering questions and being too obvious in trying to point-score. It also offers some surprisingly good advice that our friend and a few others who like conflating Jews and Israel should take note of:

'Israel is a state with some Jewish character, and Jews around the world have the right to live there. However, not every Israeli is Jewish, not every supporter of Israel is Jewish, and not every Jew supports Israel. Conflating the terms 'Israeli' and 'Jew' is often done to express an Antisemitic position, as in "the Jews are brutal occupiers", or "we must fight the Jewish oppressors". For this reason, it is important that Israel activists keep the terms separate, and don't forget that many Israelis are not Jewish.'

http://www.muzzlewatch.com/wp-content/wujshasbara.pdf

[Comrade Grumpy]

88. The IDF has a social media arm. I think we may be seeing it in action.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. So Palestinians are Nazi wannabees and deserve death, then?

I know there's a fair dollop of BS and omission in that long, long sentence you posted, and the same sort of thing could be done by someone who hates Israelis to 'prove' that Israelis hate Arabs and Muslims and want to kill them. Those things are commonly known as negative generalisations, and when they're done aimed at an entire people, they sometimes cross the border into bigotry.

[Raksha]

63. Not a good analogy. A better example...

I think the firebombing of Dresden was an inexcusable act of brutality. After all, the victims were innocent civilians who were deliberately targeted. They were not responsible for the Holocaust, even though their country was.

And just for the record - I'm Jewish.

[Puregonzo1188]

75. Is it ok to advocate genocide on DU now?

Nazis were a political party, but the Palestinians are a people. Equating an entire people with the Nazis and then saying the Nazis deserved to be killed is an open call for genocide.

[reggaehead]

55. I don't expect Israel to tolerate a rain of rockets

What I EXPECT Israel to do, is abide by a UN mandate! If they can't do that then the should not be subsidized. End of story. Israel is the biggest violator of UN mandates. They need to get with the program or get off the titty!

[Sunlei]

9. good news! if not for The Iron Dome system would be so much worse.

who sells those hundreds of rockets to the Palestinians? That arms dealer should be placed on the worlds public hotseat!

[Violet_Crumble]

13. So much worse? How much worse can it get when children have been killed?

From the OP:

03:53 A.M. Palestinian media reports two children killed in an IAF strike in the Beit Lahiya area in Gaza (Haaretz)

[Puregonzo1188]

17. Only Israeli's are people. That's why even though they started this round of violence by killing a

child in Gaza it's they who are responding to the rockets! Not you know the rockets that are responding to Israeli aggression in Gaza. Not that being the respondent justifies indiscriminate violence, in spite of what some think, it's just sad that in spite of their backwards views their chronology isn't even correct.

[Sunlei]

30. very sad that any people die. However if those 244 missles had got through Iron Dome, how many then?

[Violet_Crumble]

33. We don't need to play the what if game when there's dead Palestinian children...

Those deaths actually happened. There's no bomb shelters or Iron Dome protecting the civilians in Gaza...

And those children didn't merely 'die'. They were killed by the IDF and their killings are every bit as tragic and wrong as that of Israelis killed by rocket attacks.

[Historic NY]

42. Which leads to the point Hamas doesn't give a flying f--k either....

but they will exploit them for the propaganda value.

[Violet_Crumble]

43. I thought that point was a given...

It's a very safe assumption that neither leadership care one iota about Palestinian civilians, and I really do doubt that Netanyahu cares all that much about Israeli civilians either, except in a warped sort of 'there's an election coming! there's an election coming!' sort of way...

Regardless of what both leaderships are like when it comes to civilians, here at DU we should care about all civilians caught up in it, and it shouldn't matter if they're Israeli or Palestinian, imo...

[wellspring]

54. As we all know, the Palis never tell a lie.

Last edited Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:24 AM - Edit history (1)

Hamas claims about the Gaza war ----

Pallywood ----

[hrmjustin]

12. I don't think they want a ground war so they will try for a cease-fire. Good luck to them all!

[Puregonzo1188]

16. Then why did they break the ceasefire...AGAIN?

[hrmjustin]

18. That is a great question to which I have no answer.

[Puregonzo1188]

19. Me neither. The rockets are unjustified, but the Israelis know every time they pull this shit Hamas

is going to respond with rockets. Which Israel just uses as an excuse to escalation. I suspect it's provocation.

[King_David]

34. Yes that is it .

[Puregonzo1188]

70. Then explain why Hamas can hold up their end of the bargain and Israel keeps breaking the ceasefire?

It's because they really love peace isn't it?

[King_David]

83. Ha ha

Your post is serious ?

[riderinthestorm]

32. I can't find any news report anywhere that Israel broke the ceasefire this time.

Only that Hamas had escalated the rocket attacks and Israel finally lashed back.



Honestly, its way past time for a two state solution to be brokered. The disgusting conditions for Gazans, the increasingly unsustainable human rights violations perpetuated by Israel etc etc etc. All of it needs to be resolved yesterday.

BUT for this episode, it appears Hamas is the instigator for this latest round of violence.


"Southern Israel had been the target of more than 750 rockets fired from Gaza this year that hit homes and caused injuries."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-assault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[Comrade_McKenzie]

37. Israeli Negotiator: Hamas Commander Was Assassinated Hours After Receiving Truce Deal from Israel

Israel broke an informal ceasefire on Wednesday by assassinating Hamas military commander Ahmed Jabari in an air strike. The Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate talks between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, has revealed Jabari was assassinated just hours after he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the ceasefire.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/16/israeli_negotiator_hamas_commander_was_assassinated

[Igel]

62. Jabari received a draft of a ceasefire deal.

He didn't receive the final copy.

He didn't say he accepted it.

He didn't say that his bosses accepted it.


There was no ceasefire. Just a lot of wishful thinking.

He was assassinated hours after receiving it. There's actually no word on what he had responded, or if he was going to respond (omniscience is overrated). All that's known is after he received it, the rockets into Israel continued. He was a senior military commander for Hamas.

It's a good thing when Turkey responds to a mortar shell from the Syrian Army. It's a good thing when Syrian rebels assassinate Bashar's senior military men. Only, apparently, because both hurt something that should be hurt, not because there's any principle of self-defense or principle that hurting senior ranking members of an opposing military is acceptable.

[riderinthestorm]

64. I'm no fan of Israel but Gaza's fired hundreds of missiles this year already before Jabari died

[Puregonzo1188]

71. Try Democracy Now.

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/15/breaking_truce_israeli_strikes_kill_moderate

http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/16/nowhere_to_run_israel_fires_over

[riderinthestorm]

87. Or you can try The Atlantic...

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/11/who-started-the-israel-gaza-conflict/265374/#

Bottom line - the most objective sources I can find refuse to pick the "first" aggressor here.

[azurnoir]

20. Israeli Ambassador Deletes Tweet Signaling Willingness To Sit Down With Hamas (Blames Staffer)

http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/israeli-ambassador-deletes-tweet-signaling-willing

[Purveyor]

38. "Netanyahu says"...yeah, right and I believe in the tooth-fairy! eom

[Comrade_McKenzie]

52. My concern is with the innocent people dying because of insane leaders on both sides... nt

[JesterCS]

59. according to Harry Fear, An Elementary School was bombed. n/t

[David__77]

65. The so-called PA should not exist.

It would be a far more normal situation if the IDF was responsible for security in the West Bank and Gaza strip. There is no state of Palestine, and Israel is responsible for the security of those areas.

[Puregonzo1188]

72. Can Palestinians vote in Israeli elections then? Those living the West Bank and Gaza.

What about the refugees?

[David__77]

74. No, they are not citizens of the State of Israel.

They could agitate for citizenship, of course. But the PA is an obstacle to a solution, merely a repository of funds for a Palestinian kleptocracy. To self-dissolve the PA would require much more advanced politics than those possessed by the Palestinian leadership.

[Puregonzo1188]

76. I didn't ask currently. I meant in your proposed world where was no PA an Israel controlled the West

Bank and Gaza.

Should they be allowed to vote in this proposed solution?

[David__77]

79. If Israel wants to have sovereignty over those areas, yes.

I think that would be moral.

[Puregonzo1188]

82. Alright. Fair enough. I actually think I agree with you...

[Comrade Grumpy]

89. A democratic one-state solution would destroy Israel's Jewish identity.

And would eventually be dominated by Palestinians. But that's democracy.

[Ash_F]

93. I fail to see how it would, as long as there is separation between religion and law.

If neither group is able to impose it's faith on the other, how could either loose their religious identity? I see this argument used by conservatives in the US, regarding this country's Christian identity and I disagree here too. I think it is a topic worth discussing because it is a perceived fear of conservatives globally that leads to real tangible oppression.