Former U.S. officials have held secret Ukraine talks with prominent Russians

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: NBC News

LONDON — A group of former senior U.S. national security officials have held secret talks with prominent Russians believed to be close to the Kremlin — and, in at least one case, with the country’s top diplomat — with the aim of laying the groundwork for potential negotiations to end the war in Ukraine, half a dozen people briefed on the discussions told NBC News.

In a high-level example of the back-channel diplomacy taking place behind the scenes, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov met with members of the group for several hours in April in New York, four former officials and two current officials told NBC News.

On the agenda of the April meeting were some of the thorniest issues in the war in Ukraine, like the fate of Russian-held territory that Ukraine may never be able to liberate, and the search for an elusive diplomatic off-ramp that could be tolerable to both sides.

Sitting down with Lavrov were Richard Haass, a former diplomat and the outgoing president of the Council on Foreign Relations, current and former officials said. The group was joined by Europe expert Charles Kupchan and Russia expert Thomas Graham, both former White House and State Department officials who are Council on Foreign Relations fellows.

Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/former-us-officials-secret-ukraine-talks-russians-war-ukraine-rcna92610

[Beastly Boy]

1. When I hear of American "Russia experts" negotiating Ukraine's fate, I get very concerned.

American "Russia experts" have precious little to show for earning their title. These are the same "experts" who were caught with their pants down during Russia's invasion of Ukraine, grossly overestimated the strength of Russia's army, were taken for fools by Russia's nukes blackmail, caught by surprise by the "little green men" in Crimea, did not anticipate Putin's role in the 2016 election of Trump, not to mention them completely missing the disintegration of the Soviet Union in 1991.

I also get very concerned that there is no mention of any Ukraine experts taking part in negotiating away the future of Ukraine.

[oldsoftie]

3. Yes, any "talks" should in some way involve the people being attacked.

The ONLY thing I can see as a possible concession would be if Crimea is a different part of the equation. Since Russia took Crimea they've removed a lot of the original citizens and replaced them with Russians. So retaking Crimea would be even messier than taking back the East. And as you say, Crimea was taken without much resistance from the US or the EU, setting the stage for feb 22 by "I can do anything" Putin

[blue-wave]

4. Spot On!!!! +1000

I just tried to explain the intensity and seriousness with which the Kremlin takes their "Maskirovka" in a video post. The Russians have proven themselves to not be believed or trusted in two invasions of Ukraine. Are we gonna try for a third?

Maskirovka definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_deception

[sybylla]

9. Yep!

Nailed it.

These people shouldn't be considered the adults in the room.

OTOH, I expect we all know what Ukraine wants and I'm betting it's non-negotiable. It should be non-negotiable. They have been invaded and attacked. Russia needs to lose bigly.

[DENVERPOPS]

17. Putin

can't just order Trump to do things anymore, like block aide to Ukraine.......

[Me.]

2. With Ukraine's Permission?

Otherwise it's just them and theit egos playing the big deals.

[EndlessWire]

5. A thousand times no!

For what strategic advantage are others attempting to barter away Ukraine territory? "...like the fate of Russian-held territory that Ukraine may never be able to liberate..." That stinks to high heaven.

They're doing just fine. So, this "secret" meeting was held in April? And here it is July. Russia is doing poorly, is practically fighting on fumes. Ukraine is set to receive new assets, and is training on advanced jets that will surely help enormously in its fight to liberate the territory that Russia stole. Crimea is not theirs, nor the coastline that Russia would dearly love to keep. Not going to happen.

It would be a HUGE mistake to negotiate an appeasement with Russia. Next on the chopping block: the Baltics, Moldova, Kazakhstan, maybe parts of Finland...

Israel is going to supply the vaunted Iron Dome defense system to Ukraine. Ukraine's friends increase while Russia's fall. It's just a matter of time before Russia itself needs an offramp. Highly suggest they about face and leave Ukraine.

This seems to be old news, but it still pisses me off. With all the innocent civilians that have died, the shattered country, and the billions of bucks in restoration that will have to be spent--not to mention the 1,000 children ripped apart from their families--there is no effin reason to let the Russians off easy.

Putin is wanted by the Hague as a war criminal. Is that going to be negotiated away?

[gab13by13]

6. Fuck this, I have zero trust in members of the Council on foreign relations,

Just read Jim Marrs' book, "the Rise of the 4th Reich."

[Botany]

7. Were any Ukrainians involved in the discussions?

Here is the deal for the Russians:

Get out of all of Ukraine including Crimea. Any Russian who stays in Ukraine and does not surrender will
be killed.

Return all of the children they have kidnapped.

Pay for the damages they caused.

Russian soldiers and officers who took part in killing and torture should be turned over to either
Ukraine and or the world court.

Putin is gone from power.

[SunSeeker]

11. No, Ukraine does not appear to have been involved.

From the article:

Matt Dimmick, a former Russia and Eastern Europe director at the National Security Council, said that even discussing potential deals with Russia without Ukraine taking the lead could ultimately undercut Kyiv’s leverage.

“Ukraine doesn’t need and want intermediaries to start coming in and crafting cease-fire solutions and then enticing Europe and the U.S. to elbow Ukraine in that direction,” Dimmick said. “Ukraine realizes their path to a secure future is driving right through Russian defenses and leaving Russia no choice but to come up with their own way out of Ukraine.”

[The Jungle 1]

8. Why no mention of russian war crimes???

[50 Shades Of Blue]

10. Fuck that.

[SunSeeker]

12. I have no problem with them maintaining an open channel of communications with Moscow, but...

Ukraine must approve any offers to Russia, otherwise this undercuts Ukraine and its sovereignty. And right now, Ukraine does not appear to be involved in these talks, which makes me wonder what they could possibly be negotiating over, other than to continue to maintain an open channel.

[getagrip_already]

13. Probably work as well as tfg negotiating directly with the taliban...

Cutting out the afghan govt.

Yeah, that'll work.

[PortTack]

14. Former senior US officials..key being former. You don't hear Sec Blinken or Gen Miley talking

About this

Who former, John Bolton or other RW whack jobs?

They know what Russia does as do those now in charge who are not saying anything!

[Bayard]

15. trump's old buddy, Lavrov, is involved

Nothing good will come of anything he is cobbling together.

[LiberalFighter]

16. Richard Haass stepped down in June?

Was associated with Colin Powell?

[hueymahl]

18. This is good news

Any progress on ending war and death I applaud. I wish more of this had happened prior to the war.

[Chrysanthemum]

19. Ukraine should not accept "negotiations"

...which in any way legitimize the theft of Ukrainian land. Russia does not recognize the sovereignty of Ukraine, so why should anyone "negotiate?"

[hueymahl]

20. How many lives are enough

Just asking. 1000 more? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? At what point do you stop caring about who controls the land bordering Russia?

[electric_blue68]

22. Uh... the Ukrainians are a Free People, Free Country. THEY care, and want their land back.

Go ask them.

Of course I'd rather not have war, for goodness sakes!
Putin, however is a Murderous Bully.
You don't appease him. He'll come for more!

[Xolodno]

21. Apparently Ukraine and Russia were close to a ceasefire at the beginning of the war.

Forgot where I read it.

Putin saw his gambit to take Kiev wasn't going to work and would have to be in a long drawn out slugfest. And Zelensky wasn't too keen on a long war either.

Obviously the main issue was NATO, Ukraine would stop the rhetoric of joining and looking for ways to join (Zelensky had suggested having a referendum on the occupied areas to cede them and then apply for NATO). Later, discuss a treaty ending any attempt to join NATO.

Russia, would allow them to pursue and join the EU. Apparently they never had an objection to this.

Next, was the number of western arms flowing into the country. And giving the Donbass area a lot of autonomy. Crimea would be discussed at a later summit.

Then Boris Johnson showed up in Kiev and convinced the Ukranian government (promising lots of arms, money, etc.) to stop any negotiations. He believed Putin would give in and just declare victory and walk away.

It's obvious he is ready to go the distance and is so far into it, he can't stop. Worse, both sides have upped their demands. Zelensky wants everything back and Putin will continue to consolidate his gains and fight as long as NATO is still on the table.

Back channel diplomacy seems like the only option as everyone has publicly used hard rhetoric. Plus if it falls apart, its deniable.

[hueymahl]

23. I've seen the same thing reported

For what it is worth, I don’t trust the stated motivation for Johnson’svisit. Would not be surprised to learn he went there to kill negotiations to support some neocon fantasy of regime change with the side effect of lining the pockets of the arms makers and their political puppets

[Xolodno]

24. What if I told you energy could also be involved?

No surprise of course. Ukraine has the third largest gas reserves in Europe.

https://www.csmonitor.com/Environment/Energy-Voices/2014/1216/Abandoned-Chevron-gas-project-deals-blow-to-Ukraine-energy

After the Maidan, Russia did its thing and forced Shell and ExxonMobil to abandon their development plans. As the areas were now under occupation or too close to the rebelling areas (now completely under occupation).

Kyiv changed its energy tax scheme (I'm thinking someone wanted their palms greased and made the venture hard to profit off of, particularly since the Nordstream projects was going to bypass a lot of transit fee's) and Chevron dropped out, even though their development was nowhere near the fighting.

If all the projects went through, Ukraine would have been completely energy independent and would be able to sell a good chunk to Europe, cutting into Russia's market share.

Of course now, once the war ends or ends up frozen, Ukraine's economy is going to be in the toilet for a long time. The government will have no choice but to give in to what Chevron, etc. want.

[hueymahl]

26. Follow the money

That makes complete sense. Tragic, but plenty of historical precedent. Just look at Iraq.

[Kennah]

25. Logan Act violation?