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BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:00 AM Sep 2023

Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner removed from Rock Hall leadership after controversial comments

Last edited Sun Sep 17, 2023, 03:26 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: AP

Updated 9:42 AM EDT, September 17, 2023


NEW YORK (AP) — Jann Wenner, who co-founded Rolling Stone magazine and also was a co-founder of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, has been removed from the hall’s board of directors after making comments that were seen as disparaging toward Black and female musicians. He apologized within hours.

“Jann Wenner has been removed from the Board of Directors of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation,” the hall said Saturday, a day after Wenner’s comments were published in a New York Times interview. Wenner created a firestorm doing publicity for his new book “The Masters,” which features interviews with musicians Bob Dylan, Jerry Garcia, Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Bruce Springsteen, Pete Townshend and U2’s Bono — all white and male.

Asked why he didn’t interview women or Black musicians, Wenner responded: “It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni (Mitchell) was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test,” he told the Times.

“Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level,” Wenner said. Late Saturday, Wenner apologized through his publisher, Little, Brown and Company, saying: “In my interview with The New York Times I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks.”

Read more: https://apnews.com/article/jann-wenner-rolling-stone-rock-hall-4052a04c35ce13cc2b17b5455ebe6883



Good riddance.

I have actually been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland while in the city for a work trip over 20 years ago. That opportunity also let me see my state's (PA) Great Lake (Erie) up close (from the OH side).


Article updated.

Original article -

Updated 9:00 PM EDT, September 16, 2023


NEW YORK (AP) — Jann Wenner, who co-founded Rolling Stone magazine and also was a co-founder of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, has been removed from the hall’s board of directors after making comments that were seen as disparaging toward Black and female musicians.

“Jann Wenner has been removed from the Board of Directors of the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation,” the hall said Saturday, a day after Wenner’s comments were published in a New York Times interview. A representative for Wenner, 77, did not immediately respond for a comment. Wenner created a firestorm doing publicity for his new book “The Masters,” which features interviews with musicians Bob Dylan, Jerry Garcia, Mick Jagger, John Lennon, Bruce Springsteen, Pete Townshend and U2’s Bono — all white and male.

Asked why he didn’t interview women or Black musicians, Wenner responded: “It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni (Mitchell) was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test,” he told the Times.

“Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level,” Wenner said.
77 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner removed from Rock Hall leadership after controversial comments (Original Post) BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 OP
"Rock and Roll Fame" is a weird thing... Layzeebeaver Sep 2023 #1
Yes, but the best part is the non-stop snubbing of Ted Nugent Submariner Sep 2023 #19
They got him in a stranglehold baby. DJ Porkchop Sep 2023 #55
If it weren't for Black musicians peacefreak2.0 Sep 2023 #2
THIS 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻 LenaBaby61 Sep 2023 #3
I love that jacket moniss Sep 2023 #20
"I'm okay with Elvis being King of Rock and Roll, as long as I get to be Queen." malthaussen Sep 2023 #21
Ike Turner's cut "Rocket 88" of 1951 is often credited with being the first... brush Sep 2023 #28
I believe it's the same band/recording with a different name. ificandream Sep 2023 #73
Thank you yourmovemonkey Sep 2023 #56
It was such a dumb thing to say. jimfields33 Sep 2023 #4
To call it dumb is putting it mildly. Guy's a complete bigot. onetexan Sep 2023 #42
Good point for sure. jimfields33 Sep 2023 #49
Clearly, he has no intention of doing that. yardwork Sep 2023 #60
Agreed -- Wenner is full of it. n/t whathehell Sep 2023 #13
Absolutely. ShazzieB Sep 2023 #17
This, exactly Withywindle Sep 2023 #54
All this says is that NJCher Sep 2023 #5
What it says to ME is that he was/is a misogynistic racist. Ferrets are Cool Sep 2023 #9
He "never bothered to learn about anyone outside whathehell Sep 2023 #14
Master? I'm not sure what his definition is, look for one instance let's just use Marvin Gaye. ashredux Sep 2023 #6
That was my first thought when he mentioned Marvin Gaye BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #11
Absolutely. He broke the 3-minute-long record restriction with... brush Sep 2023 #29
Post removed Post removed Sep 2023 #7
Yes. Misogynistic racists need to be called out. Ferrets are Cool Sep 2023 #10
I vary between Misogynistic racist and Racist Misogynist. TNNurse Sep 2023 #40
True dat Ferrets are Cool Sep 2023 #50
Buh-bye! demmiblue Sep 2023 #12
Very good Documentary Series on the History of Rock and Roll 3825-87867 Sep 2023 #8
saying a group or type of person isn't "articulate" is misogynist and racist as fuck Novara Sep 2023 #15
exactly DonCoquixote Sep 2023 #24
This is so backwoods stupid SouthernDem4ever Sep 2023 #16
Good!!!! The Grand Illuminist Sep 2023 #18
That's the problem with "emeritus" personalities, they think they've reached a stage in life ... marble falls Sep 2023 #22
Was Carole King articulate enough for you? DonCoquixote Sep 2023 #23
Janis Joplin too. brush Sep 2023 #30
THIS!!☝️ onetexan Sep 2023 #43
His failure of imagination and narrowmindedness is offensive in itself! Withywindle Sep 2023 #51
He wants to be remembered as a racist asshole dalton99a Sep 2023 #25
The jerk moniss Sep 2023 #26
Way to fire, dumbass. Paladin Sep 2023 #27
i have very little respect for the Rock Hall MistakenLamb Sep 2023 #31
You do realize ExWhoDoesntCare Sep 2023 #70
Good riddance. ificandream Sep 2023 #32
Wenner had veto power. The Grand Illuminist Sep 2023 #58
Here's the interview . . . xocetaceans Sep 2023 #33
DU shouldn't support racists and misogynists like this guy BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #34
No apologies from me. The Grand Illuminist Sep 2023 #35
There were a bunch of "pop" groups BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #37
Did Josie and The Pussycats had a hit? The Grand Illuminist Sep 2023 #57
The "girl group" the show was based on BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #59
Oh ouch, Television Withywindle Sep 2023 #52
So, did you seek the original remarks or are you just taking others at their word? There's no support xocetaceans Sep 2023 #38
I have had a subscription to the NYT since 1976 BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #39
I don't think anyone has reported that he admitted the book interviews were not confrontational. ificandream Sep 2023 #41
This might have some repercussions for the magazine BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #44
Rolling Stone was great in its early years. He gets all the credit for that. ificandream Sep 2023 #45
He's gross womanofthehills Sep 2023 #68
He was always this bad ExWhoDoesntCare Sep 2023 #71
Yes, that what I found but not in the AP article: hence, my complaint about the depth of the . . . xocetaceans Sep 2023 #46
I suggest you re-read the AP article BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #47
Oh the drama. yardwork Sep 2023 #62
That part is why I said it was even WORSE than what had been previously quoted BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #64
I remember reading an interview with Marsha Hunt. yardwork Sep 2023 #66
She is from Philly. BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #67
Oh, it can get much worse than that for the Rolling Stones ExWhoDoesntCare Sep 2023 #72
Same as it ever was. Good post. Brenda Sep 2023 #75
Interesting that you brought up Sly and the Family Stone BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #77
The article has been linked and quoted numerous places. yardwork Sep 2023 #61
Wenner maliaSmith Sep 2023 #36
Pale, male and stale TexasBushwhacker Sep 2023 #74
Honestly, his editor/publisher should have called him on it TexasBushwhacker Sep 2023 #48
I have ZERO problem with who he chose to write about BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #53
He said what he believes, and he thinks he has the right to say it. yardwork Sep 2023 #63
It's a shame because so much of the content was relevant BumRushDaShow Sep 2023 #65
What the bloody... ExWhoDoesntCare Sep 2023 #69
has he always been a dick? prodigitalson Sep 2023 #76

Layzeebeaver

(2,286 posts)
1. "Rock and Roll Fame" is a weird thing...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:21 AM
Sep 2023

Half of it is musical,
Half of it is performance,
Half of it is producing, and
more than half of it is pure soul.

Any "hall of fame" (or any person associated with it) that doesn't comprehend all halves equally is only a "Hall of Profit".

Submariner

(13,365 posts)
19. Yes, but the best part is the non-stop snubbing of Ted Nugent
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 10:07 AM
Sep 2023

by the Hall of Fame who will NEVER vote him in, and that makes Teddy big Mad.

Dolly Parton, country music legend, was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame last year. I read that Ted is eternally pissed about that decision.

peacefreak2.0

(1,044 posts)
2. If it weren't for Black musicians
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:52 AM
Sep 2023

there would be no such thing as rock and roll. Go sit on the bench with Van Morrison and Eric Clapton.

malthaussen

(18,572 posts)
21. "I'm okay with Elvis being King of Rock and Roll, as long as I get to be Queen."
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:11 AM
Sep 2023

He "articulated" at a whole different level from Jan Wanker.

-- Mal

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
28. Ike Turner's cut "Rocket 88" of 1951 is often credited with being the first...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:59 AM
Sep 2023

Rock and Roll record. Jackie Brenston and the Nashville Cats are named on the cut. Brenston played sax and occasionally sang in Ike Turner's band.

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?hspart=tro&hsimp=yhs-freshy&grd=1&type=Y219_F163_204671_102220&p=Jackie+Brenston++play+for+Ike+turner

 

jimfields33

(19,382 posts)
4. It was such a dumb thing to say.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:47 AM
Sep 2023

He should have said this is book one. I’ll be putting out many more with lots of musicians. Total idiot.

onetexan

(13,913 posts)
42. To call it dumb is putting it mildly. Guy's a complete bigot.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:29 PM
Sep 2023

Let's not make light of it by calling it dumb. He meant every word he said.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
60. Clearly, he has no intention of doing that.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 09:39 AM
Sep 2023

He stated very clearly that he doesn't think that ANY female or Black musicians have anything interesting to say about rock. They aren't articulate. They're not philosophers. They're not "Masters."

This is what he said and I believe him. He didn't misspeak. He wasn't misquoted. He doesn't intend to publish more books of interviews with Black and female musicians. He thinks they're all inferior.

Full stop. Believe people when they tell you who they are.

ShazzieB

(22,591 posts)
17. Absolutely.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:32 AM
Sep 2023

Vn Morrison, eh? Ugh. I knew Clapton was a racist douchewagon, but I hadn't heard about Morrison.

Withywindle

(9,989 posts)
54. This, exactly
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:18 PM
Sep 2023

There is a very nasty streak among some pseudointellectual white guy rock critics to suggest, with varying degrees of volume on saying the quiet parts out loud, that white musicians took Black music and raised it to some "philosophical" quality that it didn't have before. And that women musicians are essentially ascended groupies who might have a pretty voice but don't have any important ideas of their own.

NJCher

(43,165 posts)
5. All this says is that
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:53 AM
Sep 2023

Wenner never bothered to learn about anyone outside his self chosen white male circle.

Never learned to communicate with women.

Never learned to communicate with African-Americans, also a sizable percentage of our population.

If a person cuts oneself off from all that, what else was ignored?

whathehell

(30,470 posts)
14. He "never bothered to learn about anyone outside
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:55 AM
Sep 2023

of his self chosen white male circle" -- Well.said.


ashredux

(2,928 posts)
6. Master? I'm not sure what his definition is, look for one instance let's just use Marvin Gaye.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:05 AM
Sep 2023

Woah, ah, mercy, mercy me
Ah, things ain't what they used to be (ain't what they used to be)
Where did all the blue skies go?
Poison is the wind that blows
From the north and south and east
Woah mercy, mercy me, yeah
Ah, things ain't what they used to be (ain't what they used to be)
Oil wasted on the ocean and upon our seas
Fish full of mercury
Oh Jesus, yeah, mercy, mercy me, ah
Ah, things ain't what they used to be (ain't what they used to be)
Radiation underground and in the sky
Animals and birds who live nearby are dying
Hey, mercy, mercy me, oh
Hey, things ain't what they used to be
What about this overcrowded land?
How much more abuse from man can she stand?
=======

I’d call this a master class in lyrics and song message, not to mention the music which is excellent. Just one example.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
11. That was my first thought when he mentioned Marvin Gaye
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:30 AM
Sep 2023

who had one of the most iconic songs of an era that resonates to his day.



That song and obviously "What's Going On?".

 

brush

(61,033 posts)
29. Absolutely. He broke the 3-minute-long record restriction with...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 12:05 PM
Sep 2023

the equally socially conscious "What's Going On" in '70 I believe. Not just genius but innovator too. Berry Gordy of Motown reluctantly areed, and the rest is history.

Response to BumRushDaShow (Original post)

Ferrets are Cool

(22,959 posts)
10. Yes. Misogynistic racists need to be called out.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:27 AM
Sep 2023

And if facing the truth ruins his life, so be it.

3825-87867

(1,939 posts)
8. Very good Documentary Series on the History of Rock and Roll
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:10 AM
Sep 2023

on youtube for free.

It's 10 parts and was done in the late 90s.

&list=PLIhBC_-F81kxTgSYJUMVXmjPwrLf8aXTP

Novara

(6,115 posts)
15. saying a group or type of person isn't "articulate" is misogynist and racist as fuck
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:11 AM
Sep 2023

It's code for "Those people aren't smart."

DonCoquixote

(13,961 posts)
24. exactly
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:26 AM
Sep 2023

Lauryn Hill woudl probably make him look like a gibbering fool, or Beyonce, then again Stevie wonder alone woudl explode him.

SouthernDem4ever

(6,619 posts)
16. This is so backwoods stupid
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:21 AM
Sep 2023

I can't even come up with a good comment to cover all the stupidity. Makes me wonder if he's got an old white hood in the closet.

The Grand Illuminist

(2,040 posts)
18. Good!!!!
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:48 AM
Sep 2023

It is because of this man The Monkees are not in the RnRHOF. Maybe finally they get their just dues.

marble falls

(71,936 posts)
22. That's the problem with "emeritus" personalities, they think they've reached a stage in life ...
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:16 AM
Sep 2023

... where all the stupid things they say are all golden and noteworthy.

DonCoquixote

(13,961 posts)
23. Was Carole King articulate enough for you?
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:23 AM
Sep 2023

Was Steve Nicks? Was Grace Slick? Please, Mr. Wenner, explain what you mean by articulate. Why did you only pick Marvin Gaye half-heartedly, like when someone says "I have many black friends."

Idiot.

Withywindle

(9,989 posts)
51. His failure of imagination and narrowmindedness is offensive in itself!
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:27 PM
Sep 2023

Really? No "articulate" insights on rock'n'roll to be had from interviews with Jimi Hendrix? Sly Stone? Janis Joplin? Patti Smith? Debbie Harry? Tina Turner? Prince? Joan Armatrading? Gladys Knight? Patti LaBelle? Isaac Hayes? Bootsy Collins?

I mean, maybe not all their faces are on the boomer rock Mt Rushmore, but the existence of that kind of elevation of the few at the expense of many others just as great is a problem in itself, isn't it?

moniss

(9,056 posts)
26. The jerk
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:28 AM
Sep 2023

takes a swipe at Grace Slick. For what real purpose other than to use her name for his money-making book? He also said that none of these other people rose to the level of "philosophers of rock". JW showing he will always be the same pretentious little man he was from the beginning. Philosophers of rock. Really?

 

Paladin

(32,354 posts)
27. Way to fire, dumbass.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 11:30 AM
Sep 2023

Go reflect on this stupid move, then come back and write a best-selling book about it. Dickhead.

MistakenLamb

(791 posts)
31. i have very little respect for the Rock Hall
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 12:08 PM
Sep 2023

but good for them, maybe these self appointed gatekeepers will finally put A Tribe Called Quest in, they deserve it much more than fucking Journey

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
70. You do realize
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 03:04 PM
Sep 2023

That one of the reasons it took so long for Journey to get into that silly Hall of Fame is because Jann Wenner fought including them...right? Yeah, rumor had it that Steve Perry v the rest of Journey were at each other's throats too much to agree to terms to appear together even for an hour or two, but the real reason they weren't in there was because Wenner hated them. This was public knowledge.

Your pet band not making it into the Hall of Fame does bloody bugger all to diminish a band that has just as much right to be in that HoF. Not to mention a band that had one of the greatest rock vocalists of all time. Steve Perry alone is enough to put them there. You hear his influence all over music, even now, even though far too few can equal him--even now.

You don't have to like Journey's music to acknowledge that they bloody well did have a substantial impact on music while they were together. The list of subsequent artists who acknowledge their influence is enormous.

ificandream

(11,837 posts)
32. Good riddance.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 12:32 PM
Sep 2023

The fact the RRHOF has deliberately snubbed the Monkees is cruel. There's one left. Gonna wait till he's dead, RRHOF?

xocetaceans

(4,442 posts)
33. Here's the interview . . .
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 12:32 PM
Sep 2023

I find it interesting that the original article/interview was not linked to in the AP piece. So, here that is along with the audio of presumably the entire interview:

Jann Wenner Defends His Legacy, and His Generation’s
The co-founder of Rolling Stone magazine on the legacy of boomers and why he chose only white men for his book on rock’s “masters.”

By David Marchese

Sept. 15, 2023

In 2019, Jann Wenner officially left Rolling Stone, the magazine he co-founded in 1967, but he hasn’t left it behind. Since stepping away from the iconic publication, where I briefly worked as an online editor a decade ago, Wenner, 77, has written two books rooted in his time there. The first, a hefty, dishy memoir called “Like a Rolling Stone,” was a best seller after it was published last year. The second, “The Masters,” which will be published on Sept. 26, consists of interviews that Wenner conducted during his Rolling Stone years with rock legends like Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger, Bono and others, as well as a new interview with Bruce Springsteen.

Those interviews — lengthy, deeply informed, insightful — are the kinds of pieces that helped Rolling Stone earn the reputation it held for so long as the music publication. Under Wenner’s guidance, the magazine also developed a reputation as a source of crucial and hard-hitting investigative journalism. But it has taken some reputational hits over the years. Chief among them a widely read investigative piece on an alleged rape at the University of Virginia — which turned out to never have happened.

As befits a man who has been held up as an avatar of his generation’s achievements and failings, Wenner has left behind a complex legacy. But it’s one that he’s happy to defend. Talking to Wenner, who spoke from his home in Montauk, N.Y., I couldn’t help but suspect that he missed the cut-and-thrust of his journalism days. He was very willing, eager even, to engage in discussion about his approach to interviewing his famous rock star friends, his own and his magazine’s possible missteps and what the baby boomers really achieved.

This interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.

[embedded audio here]

...

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/15/arts/jann-wenner-the-masters-interview.html



What is the spoken context of the offensive remarks? Maybe one should turn to the interview or to the apology to see that, but neither were linked. Here is that apology:


Jann Wenner Apologizes for Saying Black and Female Musicians Aren’t “Articulate” Enough for His New Book
The apology comes a few hours after the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation removed the Rolling Stone co-founder from its board over the comments he made while promoting his new book.

By Chris Gardner, Kimberly Nordyke
September 16, 2023 3:39pm


Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner has issued an apology following controversial comments he made about Black and female musicians being not “articulate” enough to be included in his new book.

The apology came Saturday night, a few hours after the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame Foundation announced he was being removed from his position on the board of directors.

In an interview with The New York Times — which was published online Friday, to promote his new book, The Masters — Wenner said he didn’t include interviews with Black and female musicians in his book because they aren’t “articulate” enough. On Saturday, he said he apologized “wholeheartedly” for his comments.

“In my interview with The New York Times, I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius, and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks,” he said in a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter. “The Masters is a collection of interviews I’ve done over the years that seemed to me to best represent an idea of rock ‘n’ roll’s impact on my world; they were not meant to represent the whole of music and it’s diverse and important originators but to reflect the high points of my career and interviews I felt illustrated the breadth and experience in that career. They don’t reflect my appreciation and admiration for myriad totemic, world-changing artists whose music and ideas I revere and will celebrate and promote as long as I live. I totally understand the inflammatory nature of badly chosen words and deeply apologize and accept the consequences.”

...

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/music-news/jann-wenner-rock-roll-hall-of-fame-black-female-musicians-comments-1235592239/


Now, I'm not saying that the remarks weren't offensive. I just don't know, because I have not actually heard them. They seem to be embedded in a half hour's worth of audio that is in an article that is referenced by the AP article but not linked to. Is the (instant?) outrage justified or not? Who actually checked the sources before jumping on the bandwagon? If there's a condensed bit of audio that preserves the context or shows the intent of the remarks that are in question, please excerpt it and post it.

Here is an interesting interview that I found.



Should its content have been included (some of the assessments of musicians are quite fascinating) or would it pass the same bar as has been recently applied?

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
34. DU shouldn't support racists and misogynists like this guy
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 01:00 PM
Sep 2023

He only "apologized" after his ass was kicked off the Board of Directors and the damage that was done could conceivably impact not only the Museum's bottom line, but Rolling Stone magazine's as well.

He claimed that the selections were who he "personally" felt represented his idea of "masters", and that's fine. But then his subsequent conversation included cherry-picking other artists - women and blacks - for derision, and then justifies his "opinion" with the use of arrogant and condescending adjectives to describe these other artists, and that only magnifies his shallowness.

You can discuss certain artists and genres and explain why or why you don't like them in a diplomatic way, but he didn't do that.

Fuck him.

The Grand Illuminist

(2,040 posts)
35. No apologies from me.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 01:08 PM
Sep 2023

Now with him gone we will see groups and people that actually deserve it like Television, The Monkees (as said before), David Cassidy and The Partridge Family, etc.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
37. There were a bunch of "pop" groups
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 01:30 PM
Sep 2023

during the '60s and '70s that probably do need recognition (although some performed in music-related shows that were animated like "The Archies" & "Josie & the Pussycats" ) -





BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
59. The "girl group" the show was based on
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 09:03 AM
Sep 2023


They did a bunch of covers including Bobby Sherman's hit -



And the Jackson 5 -



(believe it or not, Cheryl Ladd was one of the singers although she didn't go by that name until later)

ETA - they were heavily promoted by Kellogg's -



(now I'm gonna lose a brain file... )

I remember when they actually did a live action film based on the characters 20 or so years ago -



(no I never saw it )

Withywindle

(9,989 posts)
52. Oh ouch, Television
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:40 PM
Sep 2023

That one hurts.

The Hall of Fame always has grappled with this specific flavor of snobbery that doesn't know how to deal with anything outside what they determined to be The Great Canon, as fossilized sometime in the early 70s, and both pop and proto-punk artists always had that struggle to be recognized by the old boys club. And they wait too long, and people who deserve to be recognized pass away. I hate it.

One of the most eloquent and beautifully-staged FUs I know of was when the Velvet Underground were inducted in '96 - talk about a band that clearly should have made it in their first year of eligibility. But they dicked around even though guitarist Sterling Morrison had cancer, and no, he didn't live to see it.

So instead of playing one of their obvious "hits" (for varying values of "hit&quot , the three surviving original members wrote a new song about Morrison and how much they missed him and played that.





xocetaceans

(4,442 posts)
38. So, did you seek the original remarks or are you just taking others at their word? There's no support
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 04:35 PM
Sep 2023

in asking for the actual comments. Where is the burden of proof? It lies with those making the accusations, not with the accused. That is a simple bar that should not be set aside.

I just don't want to take others at their word. If those who accuse (like the AP article) want to make accusations, they should adduce the proof. Otherwise, the internet can be just a Gish gallop of possible quotations, and everyone ends up outraged but cannot cite what was actually said because they have never actually seen it or heard it. That's sloppy reporting.

Take the second interview that I posted. It contained a comment by Grace Slick that could be taken differently that what it was likely meant, but I did not link to that comment specifically. It seems that either it was fine in your opinion or you did not investigate. Why should I impose the burden of investigation on you or on anyone else? I should not if I actually want to make a point. Similarly, that AP article did nothing to actually produce his remarks.

Thus, the telephone game of outrage continues.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
39. I have had a subscription to the NYT since 1976
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 05:26 PM
Sep 2023

I have the article in front of me and it's even worse than what was reported. I'll add some parts left out. For example -

(snip)

History will speak. This is also a history-will-speak kind of question. There are seven subjects in the new book; seven white guys. In the introduction, you acknowledge that performers of color and women performers are just not in your zeitgeist. Which to my mind is not plausible for Jann Wenner. Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, Stevie Nicks, Stevie Wonder, the list keeps going — not in your zeitgeist? What do you think is the deeper explanation for why you interviewed the subjects you interviewed and not other subjects?

Well, let me just. …

Carole King, Madonna. There are a million examples.

When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring to Black performers, not to the female performers, OK? Just to get that accurate. The selection was not a deliberate selection. It was kind of intuitive over the years; it just fell together that way. The people had to meet a couple criteria, but it was just kind of my personal interest and love of them. Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.

(snip)

How do you know if you didn’t give them a chance?

Because I read interviews with them. I listen to their music. I mean, look at what Pete Townshend was writing about, or Jagger, or any of them. They were deep things about a particular generation, a particular spirit and a particular attitude about rock ’n’ roll. Not that the others weren’t, but these were the ones that could really articulate it.

Don’t you think it’s actually more to do with your own interests as a fan and a listener than anything particular to the artists? I think the problem is when you start saying things like “they” or “these artists can’t.” Really, it’s a reflection of what you’re interested in more than any ability or inability on the part of these artists, isn’t it?

That was my No. 1 thing. The selection was intuitive. It was what I was interested in. You know, just for public relations sake, maybe I should have gone and found one Black and one woman artist to include here that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism. Which, I get it. I had a chance to do that. Maybe I’m old-fashioned and I don’t give a [expletive] or whatever. I wish in retrospect I could have interviewed Marvin Gaye. Maybe he’d have been the guy. Maybe Otis Redding, had he lived, would have been the guy.

(snip)

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/15/arts/jann-wenner-the-masters-interview.html


Keep defending the racist and misogynist. We got your number.

ificandream

(11,837 posts)
41. I don't think anyone has reported that he admitted the book interviews were not confrontational.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:01 PM
Sep 2023

In other words, it was all snowball questions. I hope this book sinks like a stone. It should.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
44. This might have some repercussions for the magazine
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 06:36 PM
Sep 2023

I have always considered Rolling Stone as pretty solid and well-respected with its reporting, in-depth interviews, and other articles, if not avant guarde, having matured over the years. They never got click-baity despite their focus on the entertainment world. Brings to mind the Dr. Hook & the Medicine Show song...



But I would credit the writers for that.

ificandream

(11,837 posts)
45. Rolling Stone was great in its early years. He gets all the credit for that.
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:06 PM
Sep 2023

But the fact he's such an idiot now is sad.

womanofthehills

(10,988 posts)
68. He's gross
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 02:16 PM
Sep 2023

Joe Rogan had him on his show - I thought it would be interesting- s voice from the past -he was horrible even Joe was arguing with him big time.

Was he always this bad or is dementia setting in. He looked very unhealthy.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
71. He was always this bad
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 03:12 PM
Sep 2023

A bunch of artists didn't make it into the HoF because he hated them or didn't understand them or hadn't bothered to listen to anything they'd done outside of any "hits" they might have had.

Two specific bands he hated that I know about, because he went out of his way to snub them from the RRHoF: Velvet Underground and Journey.

He's hated just about every black and female artist, and would hardly ever give them decent coverage when he was running RS. He was consistent about that from issue #1 until he became so out of touch that RS had to get rid of him.

xocetaceans

(4,442 posts)
46. Yes, that what I found but not in the AP article: hence, my complaint about the depth of the . . .
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:19 PM
Sep 2023

. . . reporting.

Are you threatening me on this board? I hope not.





BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
47. I suggest you re-read the AP article
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 07:39 PM
Sep 2023

which captured the gist of the NYT article and don't generate any draconian innuendos out of what I have posted.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
62. Oh the drama.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 09:47 AM
Sep 2023

Defend this:

just for public relations sake, maybe I should have gone and found one Black and one woman artist to include here that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.


The article has been linked and quoted numerous places.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
64. That part is why I said it was even WORSE than what had been previously quoted
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 10:45 AM
Sep 2023

He feels put upon to add what he apparently believes is a "quota" of a "token" woman and a "token" black, neither of which he insists could ever reach his lofty standards (being a legend in his own mind), but might "satisfy" the critics. And that is because he has self-anointed himself as the definitive authority for all that is the music genre.

The irony being that his "master" Mick Jagger should be considered "tainted" because Marsha Hunt (original "Hair" cast member) -



and his "love child" (now 52 and his oldest) -





I won't even get into Springsteen's E-Street Band.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
66. I remember reading an interview with Marsha Hunt.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 10:55 AM
Sep 2023

Jagger abandoned her when she was pregnant. She applied for government assistance and the agency said that they had to contact the father. She said good luck, it's Mick Jagger. He's nowhere to be found.

Then he put that line about "some girls" giving him children "I never asked them for" in his hit song. All that money and he skipped out on his pregnant girlfriend. But he's the "master."

It's really disgusting behavior.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
67. She is from Philly.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 11:13 AM
Sep 2023


We know how to produce 'em.

She and Angela Davis rocked the big blowout 'fro!

https://www.essence.com/news/afro-then-and-now/#360209

They all have to eventually have the "Come to Jesus" moment like Strom Thurmond.
 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
72. Oh, it can get much worse than that for the Rolling Stones
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 03:53 PM
Sep 2023

Bill Wyman started "dating" Mandy Smith when she was all of 13 years old. He was 47.

https://nz.news.yahoo.com/bill-wyman-regrets-mandy-smith-061103707.html

The relationship wasn't even a secret. I remember reading about it when it started, and most of the rock press treated it like no big deal. I think People magazine was the only outlet that bothered to question it, but only mildly. You didn't see anyone demanding that the Stones boot him from the band over it. There was no outcry from the public, really--because the press decided to ignore it.

The coverage certainly wasn't as lurid as that for Jerry Lee Lewis, although part of what made that so skeevy was that his first wife was not only 13, but also a cousin of some kind. In Lewis' defense, what little of it there is, he was all of 22 then. So old enough to know better, yes, but young enough to be stupid, too. Especially about how people outside Louisiana would react to that kind of marriage.

Bill Wyman doesn't have the latter excuse. By the age of 47, you bloody well know that you have no business even looking at anyone 13.

I blame scumbags in the press like Wenner as much as I do the artists themselves for ignoring the exploitation of untold numbers of underage girls in the name of sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll. The artists who were scumbag predators were going to be scumbag predators--can't change that, but the press had an obligation to report on the downright horrible things that they bloody well knew were going on. It might have saved a bunch of girls a lifetime of trauma.

But they worried more about getting blowback for "destroying" someone's career, like they did with Jerry Lee Lewis, than they did about protecting something as useless as mere girls. They didn't matter to our traitor media. Only the moneymakers did.

Same as ever.

Brenda

(2,054 posts)
75. Same as it ever was. Good post.
Tue Sep 19, 2023, 06:14 PM
Sep 2023

Last edited Wed Sep 20, 2023, 06:12 AM - Edit history (1)

It's really not surprising to any females or POC who lived through those years that Wenner is a sexist, racist shitbag.

Mick Jagger is a philosopher of life and music (stolen from black people) yet Joni Mitchell is inarticulate. Haha!

Tina Turner?
Ann Wilson?
Sly and the Family Stone?
Motown?

This story is not just about Jann Wenner. This story is about how the 1960's revolutions and freedoms that happened were not as great for women, blacks and other minorities as they were for many white men...who viewed Free Love as a means to get away with rape which has pretty much continued to this day.


BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
77. Interesting that you brought up Sly and the Family Stone
Tue Sep 19, 2023, 10:45 PM
Sep 2023

and they always were a little more "rock" as an overlay to the R&B and very much had "message" music from that very era.



yardwork

(69,364 posts)
61. The article has been linked and quoted numerous places.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 09:46 AM
Sep 2023

There's simply no defending this statement, for instance:

just for public relations sake, maybe I should have gone and found one Black and one woman artist to include here that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.

That is the definition of racism and sexism.

maliaSmith

(200 posts)
36. Wenner
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 01:11 PM
Sep 2023

He basically said women, and POC are too dumb to be involved, interviewed or judge.
He's like Trump.

TexasBushwhacker

(21,204 posts)
48. Honestly, his editor/publisher should have called him on it
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 08:25 PM
Sep 2023

Of course, ultimately, Jann is responsible for his statements, but he's 77 and his brain is probably Swiss cheese from all the blow he did way back when.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
53. I have ZERO problem with who he chose to write about
Sun Sep 17, 2023, 09:58 PM
Sep 2023

they are all unique in their own right. And when asked the question, the easy answer could have been - "Well... because these are people who I happened to admire for blah blah reason". And when asked why not "X" or "Y"? He could have easily responded, "Well that was not on my radar for now. Maybe in the future...", and leave it at that.

But he instead chose to go deeper and negatively characterize and insult 2 demographics of people who have played an integral part in the genre, and by doing so, ended up highlighting his exclusion of them (something the average person probably wouldn't have noticed and could have instead accepted the selections at face value).

And then he finishes the topic up with further condescension and ridicule with what he derisively feels would force him into instituting a self-generated "quota" to include what he concludes are "lesser" quality performers who don't meet some "high standard" that he has chosen to impose on the music world, being a self-selected definitive source of such a declaration.

In other words, no filters deployed.

yardwork

(69,364 posts)
63. He said what he believes, and he thinks he has the right to say it.
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 09:54 AM
Sep 2023

Rolling Stone magazine was often criticized for not promoting female artists, or promoting them in ways that emphasized their sexual attractiveness rather than their musicianship. It was criticized for promoting Black artists using racist tropes.

When Jerry Garcia died, the world learned that he had been a heroin addict for years. Rolling Stone had never reported it. Later we learned that Jann Wenner was also a heroin addict. He had protected Garcia while reporting lots of negative things about other artists. It became clear that Wenner's ego ran the magazine.

The magazine could be interesting - I subscribed for years - but ultimately it reflected the weaknesses of its publisher, who has turned out to be a narrow minded bigot.

BumRushDaShow

(169,761 posts)
65. It's a shame because so much of the content was relevant
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 10:49 AM
Sep 2023

and industrious. But I can see how there might have been his overlay on it, with editorial license to remove what he didn't want.

 

ExWhoDoesntCare

(4,741 posts)
69. What the bloody...
Mon Sep 18, 2023, 02:49 PM
Sep 2023
You know, Joni (Mitchell) was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test,” he told the Times.


Joni Mitchell only wrote the song so defining about Woodstock and its philosophy that nobody else even bothered to do their own, really.



Instead, people who were there, or wanted to be, simply repeated what she had to say.





When you sum up an entire movement in one song so well that nobody can even touch it after that, you're a philosopher, you stupid, bigoted tosser.

I've always hated that douche nozzle.
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