Family of Maine shooting suspect says his mental health had deteriorated rapidly
Last edited Thu Oct 26, 2023, 06:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Source: NBC News
The family of the Army reservist accused of fatally shooting more than a dozen people in Lewiston, Maine, alerted police and military officials that he was experiencing an “acute” mental health episode before the Wednesday night massacre, the suspect’s sister-in-law said.
Robert Card, 40, a firearms instructor and longtime member of the Army Reserve, began to hear voices that were saying “horrible” things about him a couple of months ago when he was fitted for high-powered hearing aids, according to Katie Card, who is married to his brother.
“He was picking up voices that he had never heard,” she told NBC News. “His mind was twisting them around. He was humiliated by the things that he thought were being said.”
Katie Card said the family did their best to reassure Robert Card that the comments were not real, including by verifying with some of the people he claimed had made the remarks.
Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/family-maine-shooting-suspect-says-mental-health-deteriorated-rapidly-rcna122353
And from The Daily Beast:
That referral happened on July 16 after Card began “behaving erratically” while in training at the United States Military Academy, a New York State Division of Military and Naval Affairs spokesperson told The Daily Beast.
“Out of concern for his safety, the unit requested that law enforcement be contacted,” the spokesperson said, adding that Card was taken to Keller Army Community Hospital for an evaluation.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/family-reveals-suspected-gunman-robert-cards-link-to-maine-massacre-sites
So, IMHO, law enforcement and the Army should have removed his weapons, not his brother or any other family members.
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ALBliberal
(3,339 posts)Alerting authorities? My kids don’t own guns but I think I would take some steps if they were hearing voices.
FarPoint
(14,765 posts)just does not come into their orbit.
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)In the article no one thought he was capable of this.
When someone is suicidal, we take away things that might harm them. When someone is hearing voices and losing his bearings on reality, his Phucking murder items should be taken away.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)and that Card had undergone treatment this summer after making threats. But he was an Army Reservist. So I think it was the Army's responsibility to take away his weapons, not his brother's or his sister-in-law's.
DallasNE
(8,008 posts)He would not have access on base to military weapons. Those are secured in a vault, as is the ammo.
I haven't seen anything on his recent purchases of weapons or ammo and that would be good to know.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)DallasNE
(8,008 posts)So a long time ago. Back then our M-1 rifles in basic training were under lock and key in our barracks. They would be unlocked as we fell into formation to march to the rifle range or to training where weapons were needed and turned back in at the end of the training day. Following basic training, I do not recall being issued a weapon at all. But I was not in the infantry. Back home the weapons and ammo were locked in a secure storage room and issued only when required for training. At summer camps we seldom trained with our weapons and never with ammo The first couple of years I was in the Signal Corp and the last 4 as Combat Engineers. At the end of basic training is when the Cuban Missile Crisis broke out and even then our weapons were kept under lock and key.
I hope that answers your question.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)that he'd have had access to guns. But now they're saying he was a petroleum specialist.
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)The guns he used in training in the Army Reserve are secured on base and not for personal use.
"Army officials have affirmed that the weapons Card, a sergeant first class in the U.S. Army Reserves, allegedly used in the shooting were not Army-issued."
https://www.centralmaine.com/2023/10/27/few-details-known-about-gun-used-in-lewiston-rampage/
Besides, the Army doesn't have legal authority to confiscate privately owned guns not on government property
lostnfound
(17,520 posts)I don’t know what kind of family you all live in but taking away a gun from a 40-year old brother who has had all this training isn’t a reasonable expectation. I might WANT to, but wouldn’t have the slightest idea how.
It’s right up there with asking why don’t democrats stop republicans from breaking things. The enablers need more scrutiny, not bystanders.
Who really has the power to do something?
Most adults are burdened up to their noses with responsibility for kids, aging parents, or two jobs..many people don’t talk to their family because of MAGA-induced cult conflict.
Why don’t we know the name of the gun store and who made money off of this at every step? They benefitted. For the family it was heart ache.
Elessar Zappa
(16,385 posts)Most people would laugh and tell their parents to go jump in a lake if they tried to take their guns. It’s the job of society’s representatives to make laws that make it hard to purchase weapons of war, huge magazines, etc.
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)This guy has a kid who just graduated high school. I feel sorry for the kid that his dad is a POS.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)And Card spent two weeks this summer hospitalized after threatening his Army base.
So the real question is why nobody in the Army or law enforcement took his guns away.
“We just reached out to make sure everyone was on the same page because he is someone who does gun training,” she said. “We were concerned about his mental state. That’s all.”
SNIP
Two senior law enforcement officials told NBC News that Robert Card’s military unit commanders sent him to receive psychiatric treatment this summer after they became concerned about threats he made to the base and his claims that he was hearing voices.
Robert Card spent about two weeks undergoing in-patient psychiatric treatment and was released, according to the officials. It is not clear what further action was taken.
ALBliberal
(3,339 posts)Forgive me.
The_Casual_Observer
(27,742 posts)Is about as hopeless as taxing a church.
COL Mustard
(8,218 posts)The Army has no authority to remove his personal weapons. It's not like with a Soldier who lives on base, where the MPs can come (with an order) and remove personal weapons from quarters. Except when he's on orders, he's essentially a civilian. So the question is, why didn't his family contact LEOs? Or did they and got no help?
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)Kaleva
(40,365 posts)to confiscate someone's weapons unless:
"E. Has been:
(1) Committed involuntarily to a hospital pursuant to an order of the District Court under Title 34‑B, section 3864 because the person was found to present a likelihood of serious harm, as defined under Title 34‑B, section 3801, subsection 4‑A, paragraphs A to C; "
https://mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/15/title15sec393.html
2naSalit
(102,790 posts)Are pretty lax.
When my family tried to remove my violent dad's guns, after he beat the shit out of all of us and threatened to kill some of us... we still had no legal right to remove HIS guns from HIS home. We lived there too and were victims but that didn't matter. And that was in the 1960s.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)2naSalit
(102,790 posts)It's only been a decade or three since they figured out that children are humans and require more attention than the pet dog.
As a child living in Maine back then, I was a possession of my parents.
ThreeNoSeep
(306 posts)Sorry for your experience with domestic violence, a serious problem in Maine.
Check out T. 15 § 393(1)(A-1), (1-B)
https://legislature.maine.gov/legis/statutes/15/title15sec393.html
A more language-friendly summary is here:
https://www.womenslaw.org/laws/me/state-gun-laws/basic-information-and-definitions/i-am-victim-domestic-violence-and-abuser
Under Maine state law, it is illegal to have or buy a firearm if any of the following apply:
As an adult, s/he was convicted of, or found “not criminally responsible by reason of insanity” for, any of the following:
domestic violence assault;
domestic violence criminal threatening;
domestic violence terrorizing;
domestic violence stalking;
domestic violence reckless conduct;
Thunderbeast
(3,819 posts)Thunderbeast
(3,819 posts)A court determination is required. Until someone dies or is actually injured, that court order is unlikely.
Martin68
(27,749 posts)lostnfound
(17,520 posts)https://abcnews.go.com/US/st-louis-school-target-teen-suspect-police/story?id=92136030
lostnfound
(17,520 posts)An 18-year-old is dead after he was accidentally shot while police say his brother was trying to take a gun away from him at an apartment in west Houston…
Younger brother “wasn’t being safe with it.”
lostnfound
(17,520 posts)Depressed daughter with gun bought gun, mother repeatedly called police,
lostnfound
(17,520 posts)They sold her one anyway. Husband dead.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/local/2017/03/06/despite-a-mothers-plea-her-mentally-ill-daughter-was-sold-a-gun-with-tragic-results//
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)The brother had done all he could do, which was to notify the police of the risk he posed.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/documents-reveal-information-about-maine-shooting-suspect-robert-cards-life-before-rampage/45669530
RockRaven
(19,373 posts)Now maybe it is the truth. Or maybe it is not. I don't know. But they're gonna say a similar thing either way.
It is inconceivable that they would say the opposite: "oh, yeah, he's always been like this and we've known forever that this could happen at any moment." Nobody would ever say that.
RobinA
(10,478 posts)say that as they try desperately to get mental health help for their loved one. This guy seemingly was pretty functional until he wasn't. Most families have never encountered serious mental illness, don't necessarily know it when they see it, and certainly don't know how to deal with it when they do. Not including most people on this thread of course, who apparently know exactly what to do and how to do it when their family member experiences psychosis. 
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)They had notified the police repeatedly, and that's all anyone should have expected from them.
(Card's father died in 2001 -- not that a 70 year old should be expected to disarm a 40 year old either.)
PoindexterOglethorpe
(28,493 posts)is far more important than anyone should not be murdered by a gun.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)with an assault rifle?
The sane brother had notified the police. That's all he could do, under Maine's law.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(28,493 posts)disarm any of them.
I know, totally bizarre that we don't own guns.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)"Nobody took any guns away because owning guns
is far more important than anyone should not be murdered by a gun."
The brother and his wife were concerned enough to be calling law enforcement, and yet "the family" have been criticized for not taking the guns away themselves. It wasn't because they thought he should have the guns. They would have been risking their lives to attempt to disarm the brother.
Jean Genie
(544 posts)And still, there never seemed to be any indication that anyone attempted to keep him from owning/using weapons like an AK15. What? Would it be cruel to deprive a suspected mentally ill person - one who'd even been in a mental health facility - of his Second Amendment apparently god-given right to own and use a lethal weapon on innocent people? Wait! He was probably just duck-hunting with his AK15; right? Oops! Probably just mistook innocent people in a bowling alley for ducks. Sitting ducks? Duck pin bowling?
My god, will the savagery and insanity ever end?
Sure doesn't look like it ever will!
I'm sad for the shooter, sad for the victims, sad for the families of both the shooter and the victims, and so very sad for all of us who live in fear and sadness, with a gnawing ache in our souls as we wonder ...who's next!
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)enough about him to send him for two weeks in a mental unit, and referred him to law enforcement.
So both the Army and law enforcement knew he was a threat, and neither did anything.
The idea expressed by some here that his "family" -- i.e., his brother or teenage son -- should have taken his weapons away is ludicrous.
24601
(4,142 posts)West Point. My presumption is that his two-weeks at Keller was for evaluation and, if so, we don't know their finding. Card lived in Maine while his Reserve Base and West Point are in New York. As noted in this thread, the Army would not have jurisdiction of a reservist when their period of active duty is complete.
Maine's Director of Public Safety explained this morning that when a person is involuntarily committed for treatment, the state has the authority to take their firearms. Voluntary or involuntary mental evaluation apparently does not cross Main's threshold for such removal. So far, there is no evidence of commitment for treatment.
I've heard multiple news stations describe Maine's law as "yellow-flag" as opposed to the more common "red-flag" laws that have lower criteria for removing weapons.
LittleGirl
(8,999 posts)I’m sick of it too.
Bev54
(13,431 posts)
The Grand Illuminist
(2,040 posts)If it was a result of RW propaganda, then he was of sound mind and was emboldened for a good while to the end.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,605 posts)When will we ever learn.
Bring back the assault weapon ban.
GreenWave
(12,641 posts)Still they are not telling him to get caught by being careless.
Thunderbeast
(3,819 posts)Civil commitment is damn near impossible. "Taking away his guns" would be treated like a burglary or robbery...The psychotic brother would be the crime victim.
I have lived this horror for 20 years. Until my psychotic close relative ACTUALLY ASSAULTS OR KILLS SOMEOME, he will be a continuing threat to himself or others. The courts will not intervene.
Folks, my head explodes whenever it is suggested that "we should have seen the signs" before a tragic event like this. SEEING THE SIGNS DOESN'T MATTER if you can not compel treatment for a person in a psychotic crisis!
Strident civil libertarians have enabled a culture where the mentally ill can die with their rights on!
Martin68
(27,749 posts)I don't believe the police would jail family members for taking away his guns. It might actually spur law enforcement to take thee threat he presented more seriously.
AllyCat
(18,842 posts)Our mother had dementia. It took YEARS of specialists. No one would diagnose her. No one would take away the keys to her car. No one would help us. Not until the last 3 or 4 months of her life were we able to get someone to say, “yeah, this looks like dementia” do we could get hospice and some HELP.
I can only imagine there are some similarities with trying to get a gun away from someone who is a danger to self and others. Our society worships the damn things. We love them more than life and depriving someone of their beloved, precious, murder weapon is just a bridge too far.
lostnfound
(17,520 posts)Why the hell are good people always getting faulted for what they DIDN’t do, when they weren’t profiting from guns, they didn’t vote like a senator in support of guns, and they likely feel powerless to stop it? This isn’t a KID who did this, it’s a 40-year old man. What about his ex? Is no one blaming her? What if he had no sister? Would we say, ‘What about his mailman?’ What about the army? Why aren’t you blaming them?
RobinA
(10,478 posts)gets worse and worse. Being able to blame somebody helps people feel safe and in control. "This would never have happened if X had/had not done Y" is way less scary than, "Horrible stuff happens sometimes that could not have realistically been prevented." Hindsight being 20/20.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)who was an expert in guns and armed with an assault rifle.
That should have been the job of either the Army, which had sent him in for a mental health evaluation, or law enforcement.
3Hotdogs
(15,368 posts)Martin68
(27,749 posts)I felt was a danger to society. Everybody bears responsibility for someone who is mentally ill.
3Hotdogs
(15,368 posts)do not provide for "Red Alert" confiscation.
They're "Y.O.Y.O." states: You're on your own, until the wack job goes off the rails.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)and so did the Army, which had sent him in for a mental health evaluation.
RobinA
(10,478 posts)you have experienced this, but thank you for the post containing a blast of reality. People who have not experienced serious mental illness have no idea.
lanlady
(7,229 posts)A girlfriend of mine lived with her husband in a home where he insisted on keeping an accessible, loaded pistol in a cabinet near their bedroom. Their daughter was severely handicapped and required constant care. The strain and sadness of it all led to my friend's gradual mental decline. She attempted suicide once by overdosing on pills. Was the husband concerned enough to remove the gun? Nah. Less than a year after she attempted suicide, she took the gun into the backyard and left her brains scattered on the lawn.
Any suggestions to the widower that he was at fault, that he could have prevented this, were met with vociferous denials. The gun is never, ever to blame with these people. He ended up having to put his daughter in a 24x7 care facility because her mother was no longer there to care for her. He was not a rich man and it bankrupted him.
Backseat Driver
(4,671 posts)This relative's answers are suspect, hearsay or pillow talk, from dear brother or other relative of the suspect? As an instructor, would he not have worn adequate ear muffs on the range? ! I suppose one wouldn't be able to hear the "students" either then? I doubt soldiers in a conflict do, but high-powered hearing aids would mean possible significant hearing loss for how long or if he had been trying to keep the disability hidden? Were these fitted prior to his hospitalization this summer or afterwards?
I'm listening to this press conference. The rhetoric makes me ill, and Collins waffled on answering the question when asked about possible legislation she'd support.
My heart is heavy with grief for the friends and families, for the responders and the children who have been traumatized by this incident and all impacted by the suspected shooter.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)Martin68
(27,749 posts)So why was he allowed access to guns?
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)a Federal assault weapon ban; and Maine doesn't have any law that would have stopped him either.
SarcasticSatyr
(1,362 posts)should have rapidly deteriorated as well.
Deuxcents
(26,915 posts)Zmarmy
(34 posts)That has to change.
FailureToCommunicate
(14,605 posts)
Oopsie Daisy
(6,670 posts)Paladin
(32,354 posts)In addition to all those mental health issues, he had all the guns and ammo his little heart desired---and years of government training on how to use them with ultimate lethality, not to mention being paid to pass on that lethal training to others. And he's still out there, as of right now. Lucky us.
Novara
(6,115 posts)
Initech
(108,783 posts)Trump was all about undoing everything Obama did, because the right wing is drunk with power, out of control, and completely bloodthirsty. 
Initech
(108,783 posts)Stop watching Fox and Infowars. Stop listening to AM hate radio. That shit is really bad for you! 
maxsolomon
(38,720 posts)Any hearing-aid users on DU who have heard voices?
I've read that hearing loss can exacerbate auditory hallucinations, but I've never read that hearing aids can initiate them.
maliaSmith
(200 posts)We had an employee at my federal agency that said if this one woman moved his package cart again, he'd put her in hospital. He didn't mention a gun, but we managers reported him to our agency head and next day, FBI went to his home and took all his guns. Why didn't they take his guns especially after his mental health breakdown.
pnwmom
(110,260 posts)Maine doesn't have one.
https://oag.dc.gov/blog/public-safety-advisory-dcs-red-flag-law-helps-keep
Kaleva
(40,365 posts)Maine has weak gun laws