Hamas, Islamic Jihad reject giving up power in return for permanent ceasefire, Egyptian sources say

[lapucelle]

Source: Reuters

Hamas, Islamic Jihad reject giving up power in return for permanent ceasefire, Egyptian sources say

CAIRO, Dec 25 (Reuters) - Hamas and the allied Islamic Jihad have rejected an Egyptian proposal that they relinquish power in the Gaza Strip in return for a permanent ceasefire, two Egyptian security sources told Reuters on Monday.

Both groups, which have been holding separate talks with Egyptian mediators in Cairo, rejected offering any concessions beyond the possible release of more hostages seized on Oct. 7 when militants broke into southern Israel, killing 1,200 people.

Egypt proposed a "vision", also backed by Qatari mediators, that would involve a ceasefire in exchange for the release of more hostages, and lead to a broader agreement involving a permanent ceasefire along with an overhaul of leadership in Gaza, which is currently led by Hamas.

Egypt proposed elections while offering assurances to Hamas that its members would not be chased or prosecuted, but the Islamist group rejected any concessions other than hostage releases, the sources said. More than 100 hostages are still believed to be held in Gaza.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/

[Deep State Witch]

1. But.... But.... It's Israel's Fault!

Grrr...

Both sides are in a death spiral. Unfortunately, the deaths are Palestinian civilians.

[TeamProg]

2. Seems pretty far fetched to expect Hamas to give up power.

What opponent in their right mind would trust Netanyahu on anything at this point?!

When a people are repressed, occupied and invaded and then have no success with diplomacy, they revolt violently.

So, the violence may be the fault of Hamas but the reasons for the revolt has been the occupation under which the Palestinians have lived.

[Sal_NV]

3. And there it is!!!

Israels fault.

[TeamProg]

5. What are you saying is Israel's fault exactly? Let me ask you this:

Please explain to us all, what exactly has been Israel's place in all of the attacks back and forth?

Is nothing Israel's fault? Not a thing?

Please explain that to us all. We're begging to know what exactly, IF ANY, has been Israel's role in this conflict.

[Sal_NV]

6. I have never said that Israel is fault less with some of their actions in this current war in Gaza,

Israels role in this war is to wipe out the terrorist org. HAMAS and remove them from power to prevent more terrorist attacks like seen on 10/7, it's not Israels fault that HAMAS and supporting terrorist orgs. hide among the civilian pop., use civilians as human shields, use civilian infrastructures, IE: hospitals, apartment buildings, schools, etc., for military use.

Your whole post reeks of blaming Israel for the peace rejection, there's really no other way of reading it.

[TeamProg]

11. You seem to be lacking some serious information:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

So, yes, it is largely Netanyahu supporters' fault.

From the TIMES OF ISRAEL !!! TOTALLY LEGIT MEDIA OUTLET!!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

By Tal Schneider 8 October 2023, 3:58 pm

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
-snip-

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
-snip-


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much, much more at the link, really interesting.

[Sal_NV]

14. Which has nothing to do with this rejection of a peace settlement.

You are blaming Israel for HAMAS rejecting this proposal, is Israel supposed to believe a single fucking thing that HAMAS says?
I guess so because HAMAS is so trustworthy with its word.

[TeamProg]

15. Who in their right mind would trust Netanyahu's gov't? Hamas should demand that Netanyahu steps down as well if

Hamas were to agree to disband.

[Sal_NV]

17. And therein lies the problem,

HAMAS will NEVER agree to give up power, their sole existence is to destroy Israel and eliminate each and every Jew from the ME and the world.
The only peace they want is to be able to rearm and attack again and again, they've very publicly said so.

[lapucelle]

31. "Hamas should demand..."? Hamas is a terrorist group.

[Kennah]

39. Who in their right might would trust Trump's government?

[TeamProg]

95. How do you think Netanyahu's actions are going to work out? More peace or more terrorism? I'm sure we'll

all find out. Most scholars and intelligence people are sayng that Israel is making things worse. Unfortunate, but predictable.

[elias7]

7. Israel set up a blockade because of terror attacks by Hamas, simple as that

How do you explain 2 million Palestinian Arabs living peacefully within Israeli borders? Hamas has done daily aerial bombings, sporadic suicide bombings and have rejected all attempts at a peaceful solution over and over again.

Please try to look at this from an Israeli perspective, maybe talk to a Jewish friend.

[TeamProg]

13. My B.in Law is Jewish. He can't fucking STAND what Israel has been doing to the Palestinians. And check this out::

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

So, yes, it is largely Netanyahu supporters' fault.

From the TIMES OF ISRAEL !!! TOTALLY LEGIT MEDIA OUTLET!!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

By Tal Schneider 8 October 2023, 3:58 pm

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
-snip-

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
-snip-


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much, much more at the link, really interesting.

[LeftInTX]

22. Yes, that is common knowledge.

Netanyahu was stupid and underestimated them. He saw his real threat in the West Bank. He thought dividing the Palestinians between Hamas and the PA would work in his favor.

That still does not explain terrorism. Terrorists don't surrender. They are terrorists. They are not benevolent.
Netanyahu was stupid. But Netanyahu does not control the terrorist mindset.

Israel thought they could control Hamas' effect on Israel by setting up barriers and containing them. It didn't work.

I don't have an answer. But cordoning off a small area like Gaza is not a long term solution to a terrorist group that lives in your backyard.

[Beastly Boy]

33. "Some of my best friends are Jewish"...

Why are we wasting so much time on details of Netanyahu propping up Hamas when the subject of this thread is Hamas rejecting outright the comprehensive truce proposed by Egypt?

[TeamProg]

38. That came waaaaay after the fact that I presented. You'll need

to find a new goal post to move.

Netanyahu PROPPING UP Hamas has EVERYTHING to do with the current situation. He knew they are a terrorist group and he kept them in power to prevent Abbas from negotiating a Palestinian state that Bibi didn’t want. Why would they give it up now when Netanyahu is showing himself to be the monster we thought he was?

And yes, my Bro in law is Jewish. I was responding to the poster who said ‘Talk to a Jewish person.’

Some of my best friends are cats, actually. They are not easily offended.

[Beastly Boy]

44. What goal post are you talking about?

Didn't you pay attention to the OP?

And now we are wasting time (again!) with deflections to Netanyahu. if you see some goal posts moving, as I do, it is not the goal posts set by the OP.

[SoFlaBro]

106. +1 this is exactly fucking right. Fucking piece of shit Hamas terrorists don't get to dictate a motherfucking thing.

[Torchlight]

49. There'a particular irony in your assertion

that others moving are the goalposts/

[cstanleytech]

47. Netanyahu didn't make the decision to attack and murder innocent civilians back in October as that is all on Hamas.

I'm not defending Netanyahu or the Israeli government for the policies that they have been engaged in however as I agree that the policies enacted by Netanyahu and the Israeli government have assisted Hamas.

[lapucelle]

25. For whom are you speaking when you write "Explain to us all"?

[mcar]

9. Didn't take long

[EllieBC]

4. Yeah it seems farfetched a terrorist group like Hamas

would want to stop being terrorist thugs, you’re correct.

[TeamProg]

10. Yah, that's probably what King George thought of the colonial Americans.. And there is this:

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

So, yes, it is largely Netanyahu supporters' fault.

From the TIMES OF ISRAEL !!! TOTALLY LEGIT MEDIA OUTLET!!

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

By Tal Schneider 8 October 2023, 3:58 pm

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.
-snip-

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
-snip-


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much, much more at the link, really interesting.

[EllieBC]

16. I'm wondering how cavalier many here would be

if indigenous peoples in North America who have been very very long oppressed for suddenly started lobbing rockets and murdering people and kidnapping people.

Would you just be like, “well my 11 month old had it coming. Us being white settlers and all.”?

[TeamProg]

19. Ah, so you want the Palestinians to finally be peaceful as the Native Americans are now after being oppressed, sickened,

slaughtered, families split up, incarcerated and shipped off to nearly uninhabitble lands.

Nice.

[lapucelle]

27. Hamas again rejected a ceasefire, not "the Palestinians".

[al bupp]

32. I wouldn't blame if they did.

The way native Americans were treated by our US colonial ancestors is simply indefensible. The country has long owed them reparations and justice for those acts.

[EX500rider]

51. "that's probably what King George thought of the colonial Americans"

Yep, remember that time during the Revolution when the Colonists invaded that British music festival and raped then killed all they could find.....oh, wait, that never happened because comparing Hamas to the 13 Colonies is ridiculous IMO

[LeftInTX]

20. Terrorists don't surrender. They don't care about suppressed people.

Hamas is a multi-billion business. Their leaders are safe. No reason to quit. They want to destroy Israel. They don't care about civilians. Hamas is supported by Iran. Destruction of Israel is their goal.


Israel could bomb Gaza into oblivion, but their leaders in Gaza are safe (They may have fled through tunnels that go to Egypt). Their other leaders are safe in Qatar and Turkey. There is no reason to surrender.

[al bupp]

34. And precisely how does that differ...

From the Isaeil government's position, except that it has long enjoyed the support of the US, and so, doesn't have find refuge abroad.

[LeftInTX]

35. Netanyahu and his like are not billionaires. Hamas is an international billionaire playboy club.

How is living the high life in marble palaces considered "refuge"? They steal from the poor in Gaza to line their pockets. They have crypto-currency scams and are supported by Putin.

[al bupp]

37. And yet i doubt that they would accept an agreement that required them to cede power

Maybe both sides need to give a little.

[MyNameIsJonas]

104. Imagine if Europe took that POV with Hitler.

[al bupp]

107. I'm sorry, but ...

A corollary to Godwin's law states that once Hitler is mentioned, that discussion is ended. The implication is that the level of discourse has devolved to the degree that further communication is pointless. According to Usenet tradition, whoever mentioned Hitler is deemed to have lost the argument.

https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/Godwins-law#:~:text=A%20corollary%20to%20Godwin's%20law,to%20have%20lost%20the%20argument.

[MyNameIsJonas]

108. Not when you're dealing with a group whose stated purpose is exactly like Hitler's.

Read a fucking history book before you spout off. Hamas wants Israel to not exist. That is their stated goal. How can you expect Israel to compromise with an entity whose sole purpose is their elimination? Hamas has said they will not coexist with Israel.

This is an awful situation but as it was with Hitler in Europe - the only way to peace is eliminating Hamas. Unless Hamas gives up its powers, which it wont, letting them exist is basically a greenlight to a 100+ more 10/7 like events.

But then I think some would be okay with that. I've read what leftists truly think. They want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. This isn't about calling for a truce or ceasefire. This is about Israel standing down and letting Hamas eliminate the Israeli state.

[al bupp]

109. Sir, your rude and insulting response only proves my point

We are now done conversing, as you show no inclination to do so reasonably.

[Beastly Boy]

26. You've got to be kidding... this is your response to Hamas giving the middle finger to their own people?

Really!

[jimfields33]

41. Nope. Not even a bit is accurate

[EX500rider]

50. "occupied and invaded"

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005, if they weren't such bad neighbors they could have had a open border with Eygpt ever since...but when your main export is terrorism the neighbors tend to keep the borders shut.

Only got invaded because they invaded Israel and massacred everyone they could find.

[Jose Garcia]

97. Germany and Japan surrendered at the end of WW2

[mcar]

8. Guess they don't care about their own people

[andym]

12. Hamas has gotten what they planned for and hoped, they will not accept any peace terms

Hamas stated they wanted their October 7 attacks to go even further into Israel to provoke as drastic and brutal retaliation from Israel as possible, in order to gain world sympathy for the Palestinian cause, re-engage potential Arab and Islamic allies and re-energize their conflict to take back all of Israel. To that effect they have integrated their operations as tightly as possible with the civilian population of Gaza.
They are content to be "martyred" and have already calculated that innocent Palestinian lives would be lost as a necesary cost of their plan. Why would they agree to leave Gaza when they are achieving their intent? They and Israel know that it will be almost impossible to completely eliminate Hamas, as its roots are in the Islamic Brotherhood which has some followers throughout the Islamic world.

[TeamProg]

21. And Netanyahu FELL right into their hands and their plans. Stupid, just fucking stupid, Bibi. It was

Netayahu's choice to bombard citizens and civilians and use the excuse that terrorists were among them. It's true, no doubt, Hamas was using their own people as shields. I don;t doubt that.

What I severely oppose is Netanyahu's methods. Yes, he fell right into their trap.

How fucking stupid is that?

[andym]

23. It was indeed a trap set for Netanyahu and Israel based upon their historical responses and stated policies. NT.

[lapucelle]

28. Once again, Hamas has rejected a cease fire.

"Quick, look over there!" isn't going to change that fact.

[Beastly Boy]

29. And that is the reason it's ok for Hamas to keep rejecting truce proposals?

I don't follow your leaps of logic. Are you saying that if it weren't for Netanyahu, Hamas would jump at the opportunity?

[Eko]

36. Why would they accept a truce proposal?

Israel is giving Hamas what they want. They want more support and members for their cause. Israel by attacking and killing civilians is giving them that. They want to be on the worlds stage, Israel is giving them that. Peace between Israel and the other Arab countries is being eroded every day this keeps going on and that is what Hamas wants. For you its a right and wrong situation but that is based on your worldview.

[Beastly Boy]

42. That was one of my points. Hamas has no intention to act on behalf of or for the sake of

the Palestinian people in Gaza. If they were at all concerned about Gaza civilians, they wouldn't have started this war in the first place.

For Hamas (or, more precisely, for their Iranian puppet masters), it's all about dominance. And the Palestinians in Gaza are nothing more to Hamas than an expendable tool for their political power grab. Israel is their target only because it is there, it is vulnerable to their provocations (actually, the provocations were carefully customized to take advantage of Israel's vulnerabilities), and it is a popular scapegoat in the Muslim world. This doesn't mean that Israel is their only target. It is just a feather in their keffieh (pardon the awkward turn on a popular idiom) to claim Israel as their target.

Which brings me to my other point: Netanyahu has nothing to do with Hamas' ambitions. I would go even further and say Israel has nothing to do with it. Just look at Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Iraq, where Iranian proxies of all denominations, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, who are also active in Gaza, are committing identical atrocities. Hamas' goal is not to win a war, and it is not gain Palestinian independence, it is to destabilize the Middle East. Not necessarily on their own behalf, although Hamas leaders certainly enjoy the power trip and the luxury accommodations in Qatar that come with the notoriety, but on behalf of Iran. What is ultimately driving the conflict is the centuries old struggle for regional dominance between Sunni and Shiah branches of Islam, a struggle which precedes the existence of both Israel and Hamas by far.

But this is the subject that's way beyond this thread.

[Eko]

45. That's one point of view.

[Eko]

46. If they were at all concerned about Gaza civilians, they wouldn't have started this war in the first place.

By that logic no one would start a war.

[TeamProg]

43. I'm saying that Hamas wouldn't likely HAVE the power they do now had Netanyahu NOT propped them up over

Abbas.

I had to explain that to you? You couldn't think that equation through?

Neither Netanyahyu , NOR Hamas wanted a two state solution.

Netanyahu made his bed.

[Beastly Boy]

54. Of course they would!

Their power comes from their enablers like Iran. Netanyahu is small potatoes compared to them.

[TeamProg]

56. Wrong. If Netanyahu had supported Abbas and a Palestinian state, Hamas would not have the influence they

now have.

Netanyahu fucked up big time.

For years, Netanyahu propped up Hamas. Now it’s blown up in our faces

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

[Beastly Boy]

57. So where was I wrong?

Was I wrong that Iran supports Hamas? Or was I wrong that Netanyahu's antics are small potatoes compared to Iran?

Or was I wrong just because?

You didn't make any of it clear in your response.

[EX500rider]

52. And what was choice B for Israel after 10/7?

They did what any country would do.

[Eko]

53. Not bomb civilians.

[EX500rider]

55. So do nothing I guess?

Or do you have a modern war plan unlike every recent war?

[Eko]

58. I never said do nothing.

I guess the Second Battle of Fallujah is not considered modern?

[EX500rider]

59. The US was fighting 3,000 to 4,000 terrorists, not 40,000 with a extensive tunnel network

[Eko]

60. You do realize that there are different cities in Gaza?

It is not one big city. Were there 40,000 terrorists in Gaza city? Edit- Just in case you dont know Fallujah was a city.

[EX500rider]

61. Don't know the number but I imagine the majority of them were

[Eko]

62. Well, you can imagine what you want but that doesnt help your argument here at all.

[EX500rider]

63. Unless you have numbers you are just guessing also

[Eko]

64. It would be SOP not to have the majority of your forces in one place. That includes one city.

So Im not guessing at all. I am going by military doctrine.

[EX500rider]

67. I doubt they are the commuting to work types

I'd assume most were terrorists near where they lived, if Gaza City is the biggest town in Gaza then more of them would be there IMO

[Eko]

69. And most of them lived in Gaza city?

[EX500rider]

71. If that is the heaviest populated city in Gaza I would assume so

What are the largest cities in Gaza?
The largest city in the Gaza Strip and all of Palestine is Gaza City

[Eko]

72. Yeah, you are assuming.

Is Gaza city strategically important for Hamas? Are there other places that are more strategically important for Hamas?

[EX500rider]

75. Usually the bigger the city the more important it is

[Eko]

77. How many military people do we have in NY city?

[EX500rider]

78. The US military has actual military bases our troops are at, I imagine during a invasion it would have a lot

[Eko]

80. For many, many reasons you are wrong.

[EX500rider]

82. Very rare to give up a capital/large city without a fight

The French did that for Paris in WWII but it is rather un-common in military history.

[Eko]

83. But that is not what you are talking about is it?

You are talking about putting the majority of your forces in a city. Do you know why Russia didnt put the majority of its troops in Leningrad or even Stalingrad? Because you cant maneuver in a city. The major routes in and out are obvious blockades and you can starve everyone in it, cut off power, food, water. You can bomb them with aerial bombardments and artillery. That is why castles became useless. You can surround a city. Harder to do that with a force that can move. Basic strategy.

[EX500rider]

85. Hamas is way to cowardly to fight in the open, and they have low mobility

Urban city fight in the rubble is their best chance.
Esp with lots of supplies safe underground.

IDF would mince them in the open.

[Eko]

87. I would recommend looking into guerilla warfare.

As that is how Hamas fights. Guerilla warfare is entirely reliant on movement and mobility. You seem to think that Hamas is stupid but their recent actions prove they are not. Underestimate them all you want, its just not correct. If Israel or the UN sets up a government, and I have no illusions that the UN will do that, they will face Guerilla warfare and the majority of the Palestinian people will, at the very least, turn a blind eye to it if not assist. They are not cowardly, they do not have low mobility, underestimating them is what got us to where we are now and I would suggest you stop doing so. Before you chime in that it seems I support them I have previously and will do so again state that I believe we should go in and take them out with our special forces and elite soldiers either by ourselves or in conjunction with Israel. So, that would be answer C for you. I dont underestimate them and I dont have a view that they are amateurs at all as they are not. Proven by recent events. No one really helps them, the Palestinians in Gaza except that Hamas claims they alone can. They have been desperate for a long time and desperate people will choose desperate solutions. Someone needs to give them another option besides Hamas and war and death. We can do that. It will take time, money and people and even peoples lives. But it's what we should do. That should be who we are.

[EX500rider]

89. You are talking about guerilla warfare as it applies with room to hide and mountains & woods to hide in

Gaza average 4 miles wide by 25 miles long. Nowhere for classic guerilla warfare, nothing but urban combat and compared to mobile mechanized battalions of western professional armies Hamas is very low mobile.

And Special Forces are for high intensity/low numbers combat, not for taking on 30,000+-, IDF does not have that many Operators and even we would be hard pressed, that's over 35 Battalions or 3 Divisions of Hamas assuming they have lost 10,000 KIA/WIA +-

[Eko]

91. I said with our special forces and elite soldiers

United States Marine Corps Reconnaissance Battalions 2,000 plus.
Air Force Special Operations Weatherman over 15,000
USMC Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company 250
USMC Amphibious Recon Platoons 1000
Air Force Combat Controllers 360
Force Reconnaissance Marines 200
Marine Special Operations Command 3000
US Army Rangers 3,500
Green Berets 6,000
1st Reconnaissance Battalion 1000
Yes, we have enough people and that is not even counting the almost 800,000 in the army and the 200,000 marines. Hamas has a lot of motorcycles, are you saying that motorcycles are not more mobile than most everything else?

[EX500rider]

92. Even our specisl forces wouldn't do it much different

Lots of artillery and tank fire to root out snipers and ambushes.
And while motorcycles are mobile, they are totally unarmored and can't carry much in the way of heavy weapons

[MarineCombatEngineer]

93. Even the dune buggy's that the SF use can carry much more firepower than those motorcycles can.

[Eko]

65. Lets further this "most of Hamas" were in Gaza city.

Israel is in control of Gaza city now. If most of Hamas was there what happened to them? Are they dead? Did most of them escape? If most of them are dead why is Israel still bombing other places? If most of them escaped then the strategy they have employed is useless and just kills a lot of civilians. Which one is it?

[EX500rider]

66. I assume they left in tunnels

As the IDF seals/floods/collapse's those they will have less escape routes and the IDF can push them into a corner and finish them

[Eko]

68. What corner?

Remember they dont wear uniforms. They can attack the south, Hamas just leaves where they are attacking via the tunnels and mixes with the populace. Then they go build more tunnels. Or do you think Hamas is going to do like the Alamo and have a last stand?

[EX500rider]

70. As the IDF advances south they will destroy the tunnels as they go

Yes Hamas can drop their weapons and merge with the civilians but that means giving up the fight and you don't get to Paradise by being a quitter.

[Eko]

73. What about the tunnels they dont find?

They are not going to give up the fight, they will meld with the populace and take it up again, that's what guerilla forces do throughout history. How do you see this ending? Is Israel really going to kill all of Hamas? Are the civilians of Gaza going to think Israel is their savior? Are they going to be like, sure, you just killed all of my close and extended family but you rock. Is Israel going to occupy all of Gaza for decades? Do you think there will be terrorist attacks on Israeli forces during that occupation? Is Israel going to rebuild Gaza? Are they going to just kick the people out? I really want to know how you think this is going to end up.

[EX500rider]

74. I think what's left of Hamas will go underground of course

And Israel can help set up or invite the UN to help set up a new government, no terrorists need apply, I would make them pass a background polygraph to run for office.

[Eko]

79. Who are going to be members of the new government?

The Palestinians in Gaza? Do you think they are going to be for or against Hamas after having friends and family members and homes and schools and hospitals destroyed and killed? Do you think that government will be friendly to Israel? Or against it?

[EX500rider]

94. I know if my government attacked a much more powerful neighbor...

...so we got invaded with many dead I would blame my govt for starting shit with someone who can easily kick your ass.

As for who would be in the new govt I would start with anybody who is not in Hamas, Palestine Islamic Jihad, etc

[keithbvadu2]

30. 'Permanent" ... What a joke! Hamas has promised to continue their terror attacks.

A ceasefire alone is pro-Hamas.

They want to kill more Jews, just as Trump's republicans want to do.

Support peace.

[Kennah]

40. Stand firm! Don't surrender! Prigozhin didn't.

We really need a satire tag. Nuanced difference.

[republianmushroom]

48. So it is about power and control

[moniss]

76. So I read all 48 responses to the OP and not one

talked about the ridiculous idea that you could hold elections in a bombed out hellhole. So regardless of who rejected the Egyptian proposal or not the proposal on it's face was a joke. Even if Israel stopped the destruction in Gaza tomorrow you are looking at decades in order to rebuild the place to some kind of controllable situation where you could have political campaigns in a relatively peaceful fashion and administer an election that could have any shot at integrity and being conducted peacefully without violent intimidation.

Egypt may just be trying to fling anything against the wall just to keep up the idea that the sides are talking. This "proposal" is worth about as much as a UN resolution at this point. An actual serious proposal, for example, would be for Hamas to say "OK we are going to release 10 hostages even without an agreement and we will see if Israel responds positively." Now if Israel gives no positive response then it would be clear that, as many have said, even if all the hostages were suddenly released Israel is not going to alter their conduct.

That positive response from Israel could be something like making a major effort to immediately and drastically increase allowing in pain medications for the wounded and anesthesia for conducting surgeries. Not just a couple more aid trucks per day but actually a major effort to allow the world to get the people that have been "kettled" to the South of the territory some food and water and sanitation facilities.

As it currently sits none of the parties in the conflict are willing to make any concessions to the other and don't trust each other. So a bold move like a small concession with no preconditions could be met either with more bombs or perhaps a few less bombs and maybe something positive like seeing to an increased effort to help the wounded and starving. Maybe then in response to Hamas having made their gesture without precondition Israel could say to Hamas "We are going to release 20 prisoners even without an agreement and we will see if Hamas responds positively." Now if Hamas gives no positive response then it would be clear that, as many have said, Hamas will only keep the conflict going.

Who goes first could be either one but at this point would it hurt to try it? Really? It sure isn't working doing it the way it is now. Yes I know now will come all the responses to me about how one side or the other is this or that. Has all of that worked for either side? Really?

[lapucelle]

81. This news story has the details of the Egyptian plan.

Egypt floats ambitious plan to end Israel-Hamas war and create transitional gov't

The Egyptian proposal is an ambitious bid not only to end the war but also to lay out a plan for the day after. It calls for an initial cease-fire of up to two weeks during which Palestinian militants would free 40 to 50 hostages, among them women, the sick and the elderly, in return for the release of 120-150 Palestinians from Israeli prisons, the Egyptian official said.

At the same time, negotiations would continue on extending the cease-fire and the release of more hostages and bodies held by Palestinian militants, he said. Israeli officials estimate that 20 of the hostages have died or been killed in captivity.

Egypt and Qatar would also work with all Palestinian factions, including Hamas and the rival, internationally recognized Palestinian Authority, to agree on the establishment of a government of experts, he said. The government would rule Gaza and the West Bank for a transitional period as Palestinian factions work toward presidential and parliamentary elections, he added.

In the meantime, Israel and Hamas would negotiate a comprehensive “all-for-all” deal, he said. This would include the release of all remaining hostages in return for all Palestinian prisoners in Israel, as well as the Israeli military’s withdrawal from Gaza and the Palestinian militants’ halting of rocket attacks into Israel.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/egypt-floats-ambitious-plan-end-israel-hamas-war-105906918

[moniss]

84. That is more detail but unfortunately it just

leaves me even more dismayed that the Egyptians would think this was realistic. The idea that Hamas and Fatah are somehow going to agree to work together is just not going to happen. They are the two main factions and Fatah was run out of Gaza by Hamas.

[lapucelle]

88. I'm sure that the Egyptians will be sorry to hear that you are dismayed.

[moniss]

90. I'm unconcerned with

with it since it's not a serious proposal on it's face. But apparently some people think it's reasonable to think that Hamas and Fatah are going to belly right up to working together. I've not read one article by any serious analyst or diplomat with experience in the region talking about reconciliation between Hamas and Fatah as being in anybody's wildest dreams. It helps when looking at various proposals of any kind about anything to actually look at the items being proposed and examine whether they have any realistic expectation of happening. Some party or other "rejecting" a proposal may be doing so for many different reasons or maybe for a combination of "never going to happen" and "we don't like this or that aspect". Proposed agreements are not always as simple as just saying the words.

[TheKentuckian]

96. There was already a ceasefire and exchange process in place

it was broken by the same perpetrators of the mass hostage takings, massacre, and rape gangs on kids at a music festival and old folks in kibbutz.

There is no need for any test of Solomon to get a handle on who "keeps it going".

Any lack of clarity is delusion.

[moniss]

98. I don't think you understood my

comment. The proposal by Egypt was for a permanent ceasefire rather than what had been in place. None of the sides, there are actually way more than 2, trust each other in the least because of decades upon decades of experience with each other making and breaking promises. Who broke it this time is not the issue in my comment or in the facetious proposal by Egypt. I have no idea what you mean about a lack of clarity or some test of some kind regarding the Egyptian proposal.

I cannot call to mind a ceasefire ever between all of these parties that survived long term without being broken at various times by all of the players. Whether it is a small breaking or a large one it still breaks the ceasefire and then it's back at it again. During the supposed "ceasefires" the sides don't actually pursue peace with integrity but rather use the time to rearm, develop further strategies for attack, send assassins into other countries to kill off enemies, encroach on even more territory, practice intimidation and on and on.

The horrible actions on 10/7 follow a long list of horrible actions by all sides in the Middle East. The list of massacres, taking innocent people prisoner and rape did not start on 10/7 and the perpetrators on the list are not restricted to one side alone and they have not been restricted to only the area of Palestine or Israel.

[Aussie105]

86. Putting the futile blame game aside for a second . . .

If that approach to peace doesn't work, maybe suggest a different one?

Any suggestions?

[lapucelle]

100. The Egyptian proposal was not a "futile blame game".

[Cha]

99. Of course the GD Butchers of HAMAS Won't Agree

to a Ceasefire Permanent or for a Week like Israel Offered.

Their Vicious Violent Crusade is to Rule the World.. Fuck them and their disregard for the Palestinians, in their Bloodlust for Massacres and Dominance Against the so called "Infidels".

There.. no Deflection or Both sides.. Just talking about what the OP is Reporting.

Mahalo, lapucelle

[MarineCombatEngineer]

101. Thank you Cha for being an outspoken advocate for the crimes of Hamas.

[Cha]

102. You're Welcome, MCE...

I want to Thank You, too!

I wish you and yours a Healthy Happy New Year!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

103. Ditto.

[Cha]

105. 🕯️🕊️💙🌊🏝️🌈