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NickB79

(18,983 posts)
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 02:08 PM Feb 10

Hamas had command tunnel under U.N. Gaza headquarters, Israeli military says

Source: Reuters

GAZA, Feb 10 (Reuters) - Israeli forces have discovered a tunnel network hundreds of metres (yards) long and running partly under UNRWA's Gaza headquarters, the military says, calling it new evidence of Hamas exploitation of the main relief agency for Palestinians.

Army engineers took reporters for foreign news outlets through the passages at a time of crisis for UNRWA, which has launched an internal probe and seen a string of donor countries freeze funding over allegations last month by Israel that some of its staff doubled as Hamas operatives.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-had-command-tunnel-under-un-gaza-hq-israeli-military-says-2024-02-10/



Man, those 12 UNRWA Hamas members have been busy!
59 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Hamas had command tunnel under U.N. Gaza headquarters, Israeli military says (Original Post) NickB79 Feb 10 OP
Now that they know, figure a way to destroy it. jimfields33 Feb 10 #1
This group was part of the Hamas organization LetMyPeopleVote Feb 10 #2
"technological tunnel" implying scipan Feb 10 #5
"...that show how @UNRWA directly aided and abetted Hamas' operations in Gaza.'... Cha Feb 10 #7
Post removed Post removed Feb 10 #3
Yeah, I'm sure they spent millions to dig tunnels under UNRWA for fun NickB79 Feb 10 #4
It's clear tunnels were built. sybylla Feb 10 #11
You're joking, right? NickB79 Feb 10 #12
Exactly. I don't believe ANYBODY in this war. nt TeamProg Feb 10 #14
Me, neither. A pox on ALL their squabbling houses ArkansasDemocrat1 Feb 11 #46
Still waiting for evidence. Saw this analysis of what Israel "shared" with journalists. sybylla Feb 12 #59
There is no plan to remove all Palestinians EX500rider Feb 10 #10
There is no "ongoing genocide". Completely false as evidenced by recent ICJ ruling. toesonthenose Feb 10 #22
The African National Congress views Israel as one who supported the apartheid regime in South Africa tornado34jh Feb 11 #48
well, many African nations actually welcome authoritarian Russian military help lapfog_1 Feb 11 #53
Well, it's not just Africa tornado34jh Feb 11 #54
"Evidence?" We don't need no stinking evidence! mcar Feb 10 #31
One requirement for joining Hamas, Bayard Feb 10 #6
This evidence comes from the same source (IDF) as the "info" that led to the firing of 12 UNRWA workers. TheRickles Feb 10 #8
Foreign journalists were taken into the tunnels per Reuters NickB79 Feb 10 #15
That link doesn't say that there is no evidence to back up the charges. lapucelle Feb 10 #30
The headline of the article is "UNRWA staff accused by Israel sacked without evidence, chief admits". TheRickles Feb 10 #36
The chief of UNRWA defends the workers he supervises from accusations of terrorism, rape and murder? NickB79 Feb 10 #38
I know what the headline says, and I also know what it actually means. lapucelle Feb 10 #40
As the causality figures come from one source, Hamas EX500rider Feb 11 #45
Prove it. Evolve Dammit Feb 10 #9
If these Hamas tunnels connect to inside the UNRWA facility NickB79 Feb 10 #13
No, it's not at all. TeamProg Feb 10 #17
Hamas tunnels just connect to random buildings in Gaza? NickB79 Feb 10 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author TeamProg Feb 10 #19
Hamas, a subsect of the Palestinian people, are terrorists NickB79 Feb 10 #21
How do you make that leap to all Palestinians are terrorists? toesonthenose Feb 10 #23
This message was self-deleted by its author TeamProg Feb 10 #24
Name one legitimate source that ever said that Major Nikon Feb 10 #37
TeamProg was being sarcastic... DemocraticPatriot Feb 11 #41
+1 TeamProg Feb 10 #16
"Army engineers took reporters for foreign news outlets through the passages" JoseBalow Feb 10 #29
At this point international investigators truthisfreedom Feb 10 #20
+1 TeamProg Feb 10 #25
I just knew that the usual deniers would show up, MarineCombatEngineer Feb 10 #26
Like clockwork. madaboutharry Feb 10 #28
Hoping they get regular massage therapy mcar Feb 10 #32
Hamas built an entire data command center under UNRWA Headquarters. madaboutharry Feb 10 #27
and ..... Israeli Feb 10 #33
Sources say . . . Richard D Feb 10 #34
LOL. MarineCombatEngineer Feb 10 #35
These Findings Were Found Within UNRWA Facilities Historic NY Feb 10 #39
Israel said it so it must be a lie. I know I trust Hamas 100% to be honest and sincere in all its statements, AZLD4Candidate Feb 11 #42
I think it's very telling that someone at Reuters knew it was necessary to add the word "yards" after "meters" * Oopsie Daisy Feb 11 #43
When I was in the military, MarineCombatEngineer Feb 11 #44
That's because we want to be different from the rest of the world, heh heh heh tornado34jh Feb 11 #47
There used to be a freeway sign outside Milwaukee: Chicago 50 miles - 100 Km LeftInTX Feb 11 #49
Interesting tornado34jh Feb 11 #50
There was an attempt to convert the country. It just didn't go anywhere. LeftInTX Feb 11 #51
Yeah, it's hard to change to a new system when you have been used to one for a long time tornado34jh Feb 11 #52
Everything in Mexico is metric. (Well, it's also in Spanish)... LeftInTX Feb 12 #56
It can get confusing to convert metric and imperial units tornado34jh Feb 12 #57
How do they build an entire data command center under UNRWA nose, Everyone needs fired. OverBurn Feb 12 #55
Venturing onto the tree limb that risks being labeled a supporter of genocide, I'd say that UNRWA was in on it Kennah Feb 12 #58

Response to NickB79 (Original post)

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
4. Yeah, I'm sure they spent millions to dig tunnels under UNRWA for fun
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 02:26 PM
Feb 10

There shouldn't be ANY tunnels under the aid agency. Tunnels they spent years building.

sybylla

(8,390 posts)
11. It's clear tunnels were built.
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 04:36 PM
Feb 10

We have zero physical evidence of anything else.

The presence of tunnels by itself implies nothing.

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
12. You're joking, right?
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 05:09 PM
Feb 10

Tunnels that cost millions to build (using money meant for Palestinian aid), that take years to complete, built in secret, by a terrorist organization, mean nothing?

sybylla

(8,390 posts)
59. Still waiting for evidence. Saw this analysis of what Israel "shared" with journalists.
Mon Feb 12, 2024, 05:16 PM
Feb 12



An interesting thread.

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
48. The African National Congress views Israel as one who supported the apartheid regime in South Africa
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 09:10 PM
Feb 11

They see Israel as the one who supplied weapons to when South Africa was under apartheid. Israel and the apartheid regime developed a close military alliance during that dime. They see what is going on in Palestine as a liberation movement. John Vorster, the then prime minister, was feted in a visit to Jerusalem in 1976 despite him being a Nazi sympathizer and was part of a fascist militia. Furthermore, the Board of Deputies at the time supported Percy Yutar, the person who sent Nelson Mandela to prison. To them, they see Israel as nothing but a supporter of the apartheid regime and hence, a colonialist government. So if you want to blame South Africa, look at its government. Much of Africa has a anti-colonialist mindset, and thus they see the West and Israel as an extension of colonialism. That's not me saying that, that is what they think.

lapfog_1

(29,036 posts)
53. well, many African nations actually welcome authoritarian Russian military help
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 09:59 PM
Feb 11

the reformed old Wagner Group.

They are trading one set of colonial masters for another.

Actually many also are taking chinese "aid" ( which always comes with strings attached ), although given China's recent economic problems, that may be coming to an abrupt end.

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
54. Well, it's not just Africa
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 10:11 PM
Feb 11

A lot of countries, especially in Latin America, India, much of southeast Asia, the Middle East, do support Russia in one way or another. But again, the attempt is to create a multipolar world or at least not one dominated by the West.

TheRickles

(1,917 posts)
8. This evidence comes from the same source (IDF) as the "info" that led to the firing of 12 UNRWA workers.
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 04:00 PM
Feb 10

They now admit there was no evidence to back up the charges against the UNWRA, and the 12 sacked UNWRA workers represent 0.1% of their total workforce. And we fell for it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/09/head-of-unwra-says-he-followed-reverse-due-process-in-sacking-accused-gaza-staff|

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
15. Foreign journalists were taken into the tunnels per Reuters
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 05:35 PM
Feb 10

So it's an established fact that said Hamas tunnels exist, where the IDF says they exist.

From there, it begs the question: what were these Hamas tunnels built for, and why to this particular location? The possible, non-terrorism related, reasons are few and far between.

lapucelle

(17,947 posts)
30. That link doesn't say that there is no evidence to back up the charges.
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 08:16 PM
Feb 10

It says that the UNRWA chief Philippe Lazzarini proactively fired the *alleged* Hamas-linked UNRWA staff before the UN investigation was ordered.

From your link:

Lazzarini said he made the “exceptional, swift decision” to terminate the contracts of the staff members due to the explosive nature of the claims.

“Indeed, I have terminated without due process because I felt at the time that not only the reputation but the ability of the entire agency to continue to operate and deliver critical humanitarian assistance was at stake if I did not take such a decision,” he said.

snip========================

Lazzarini said the Israeli official told him the names of the accused staff members and the allegations they were facing. He said the official read from a “large dossier” but the agency had not been provided with a copy. He said he checked the names against a staff database before making the decision to dismiss them.

“I have seen a large dossier in the room that the person had, coming from their own internal intelligence, and he was reading this and translating for me,” he said.

There were strong allegations, with names and for each of the name[s] associated to a given activity on that day.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/09/head-of-unwra-says-he-followed-reverse-due-process-in-sacking-accused-gaza-staff

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
38. The chief of UNRWA defends the workers he supervises from accusations of terrorism, rape and murder?
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 10:10 PM
Feb 10

Last edited Sat Feb 10, 2024, 10:50 PM - Edit history (1)

Shocking.

There wouldn't be an ongoing investigation by the UN if there weren't ANY evidence to indicate wrongdoing. At best, you can say there isn't conclusive evidence. Yet.

lapucelle

(17,947 posts)
40. I know what the headline says, and I also know what it actually means.
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 11:27 PM
Feb 10

Philippe Lazzarini did not "probe Israel's claims" or "look into whether there was any evidence against the employees" before he fired the *alleged* Hamas operatives.

The fact that Philippe Lazzarini failed to extend due process to the *alleged* employee-terrorists after learning what was in the dossier in no way means that there is no evidence.

=======================

Philippe Lazzarini, UNRWA’s commissioner general, said he did not probe Israel’s claims against the employees before dismissing them and launching an investigation.

At a press conference in Jerusalem, Lazzarini was asked if he had looked into whether there was any evidence against the employees and he replied: “No, the investigation is going on now.”

snip-----------------------------------

Lazzarini said the Israeli official told him the names of the accused staff members and the allegations they were facing. He said the official read from a “large dossier” but the agency had not been provided with a copy. He said he checked the names against a staff database before making the decision to dismiss them.

“I have seen a large dossier in the room that the person had, coming from their own internal intelligence, and he was reading this and translating for me,” he said.

snip-----------------------------------

On Thursday, the UN secretary general, António Guterres, defended the decision to fire the staff before an inquiry was complete, citing “credible” information from Israel, adding: “We couldn’t run the risk not to act immediately as the accusations were related to criminal activities.”


------------------------------------------------

Something in that dossier made poor, beleaguered UNRWA chief Lazzarini immediately terminate the *contractors*, hop on a plane to NY to brief UN Secretary General Guterres ,and then immediately fly to Washington to brief the State Department.

And something in that dossier led SOS Blinken to characterize the *claims* as "highly credible".






EX500rider

(10,334 posts)
45. As the causality figures come from one source, Hamas
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 11:11 AM
Feb 11

Let me guess, those you believe without question?

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
13. If these Hamas tunnels connect to inside the UNRWA facility
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 05:29 PM
Feb 10

That's all the proof that's needed to show a working relationship between the two. It's not complicated.

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
18. Hamas tunnels just connect to random buildings in Gaza?
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 05:43 PM
Feb 10

And the building occupants are unaware of large holes drilled through their foundations, with strange men coming and going? Really?

Response to NickB79 (Reply #18)

NickB79

(18,983 posts)
21. Hamas, a subsect of the Palestinian people, are terrorists
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 06:03 PM
Feb 10

Not ALL Palestinians.

We can agree on that much, right?

toesonthenose

(128 posts)
23. How do you make that leap to all Palestinians are terrorists?
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 06:08 PM
Feb 10

That leap of logic is stretched further than a stick of warm Laffy Taffy.

Response to toesonthenose (Reply #23)

JoseBalow

(1,619 posts)
29. "Army engineers took reporters for foreign news outlets through the passages"
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 08:10 PM
Feb 10

Maybe it was the Staten Island ferry...

madaboutharry

(40,047 posts)
27. Hamas built an entire data command center under UNRWA Headquarters.
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 07:22 PM
Feb 10

"UNRWA head says agency was in dark about Hamas center under Gaza HQ; Israel: ‘You knew"

There is no denying this. From the article:

The subterranean data center, seen by The Times of Israel’s military correspondent on Thursday during an Israel Defense Forces media tour, included an electricity room, industrial battery power banks, and living quarters for alleged Hamas terrorists operating the computer servers.
.



https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-head-says-agency-was-in-dark-about-hamas-center-under-gaza-hq-israel-you-knew/

Israeli

(4,132 posts)
33. and .....
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 08:43 PM
Feb 10
“The shaft led to an underground terror tunnel that served as a significant asset of Hamas’s military intelligence and passed under the building that serves as UNRWA’s main headquarters in the Gaza Strip,” they added in a statement.

“Electrical infrastructure” in the tunnel — 700 meters (765 yards) long and 18 meters underground — “connected” to the agency’s HQ, “indicating that UNRWA’s facilities supplied the tunnel with electricity,” they said.

Maybe they dont check their monthly electric bill

Richard D

(8,622 posts)
34. Sources say . . .
Sat Feb 10, 2024, 08:55 PM
Feb 10

. . . that the true purpose of the tunnel network is for transporting and delivering falafels. Nothing else.

AZLD4Candidate

(5,435 posts)
42. Israel said it so it must be a lie. I know I trust Hamas 100% to be honest and sincere in all its statements,
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 01:14 AM
Feb 11

except that river to the sea statement. We all know that's an Israeli deep fake

Oopsie Daisy

(1,847 posts)
43. I think it's very telling that someone at Reuters knew it was necessary to add the word "yards" after "meters" *
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 10:19 AM
Feb 11

* in order to explain to some readers about how long a "meter" is. That's a sad commentary on what passes for education in this country.

But, I guess it's better than letting half of the readers think that a "meter" is about 12" long.

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
47. That's because we want to be different from the rest of the world, heh heh heh
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 08:52 PM
Feb 11

But in all seriousness, a yard is 36 inches or 3 feet, but a meter is approximately 39 3/8 inches, or 3 feet, 3 3/8 inches (actually 3 feet, 3.3701 inches). I read about a story that back in the 1800s, there was an person that was on his way to present the metric system to Congress, but while on his way there, he got lost in a storm or a hurricane and never made it there. But again, converting to the metric system would take a very long time in the US, and if it has worked for the last 250 years, why replace it?

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
50. Interesting
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 09:42 PM
Feb 11

But usually we only really use metric in science or military. I would only see it if I was close to Canada.

LeftInTX

(24,178 posts)
51. There was an attempt to convert the country. It just didn't go anywhere.
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 09:46 PM
Feb 11

It was at least 500 miles from the Canadian border and this is heading south.

I live 150 miles from the Mexican border and do not see any metric signs around here.

The Chicago sign was just part of the "let's switch to metric" phase which didn't go anywhere.

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
52. Yeah, it's hard to change to a new system when you have been used to one for a long time
Sun Feb 11, 2024, 09:56 PM
Feb 11

When I was in Europe, for example, they would say the temperature would be 35-40 degrees. At first, at thought, that is chilly, but it was actually in Celsius. In reality that is 95-104 F, which is very hot. I think only a few other countries in the world still use imperial units other than the US.

LeftInTX

(24,178 posts)
56. Everything in Mexico is metric. (Well, it's also in Spanish)...
Mon Feb 12, 2024, 12:37 AM
Feb 12

I don't get there anymore, but it's confusing, especially weather.

I can roughly convert Km to miles due to that old sign on I-94. Temperature is hard. I can't remember that stupid formula with 5/9 or 9/5...LOL

tornado34jh

(836 posts)
57. It can get confusing to convert metric and imperial units
Mon Feb 12, 2024, 01:27 AM
Feb 12

For km to miles, it 0.6213712 miles, while the other way is 1 mile is 1.609344 km. An approximate formula is 1 km is roughly 5/8 of a mile, while 1 mile is about 1.6 km. For Celsius to F, it is x *1.8+32 (e.g. if x= 20, then in Fahrenheit it is 68), for Fahrenheit to Celsius it is F-32, then times 5/9. It's kind of complicated, but as a general rule, every 5 degrees Celsius difference is equal to 9 F, so 30 Celsius is 86 F, 35 is 95 F, while 25 C is 77 F. For rain, it is common to use millimeters or centimeters. 1 inch is 2.54 cm or 25.4 mm. 1 mm= approximately 0.039 inches, while one cm is 0.393 inches. Basically, converting from imperial units to metric units and vice versa is very complicated. The metric system is based on powers of 10, so it's a lot more simplified.

I bet that's why if someone who is used to the metric system came to the US, and they saw the weather and it said the temperature was 95 degrees, they would think it might be deadly hot, even though it is actually 35 C. For the record, 95 C is 203 F, which is nearly 70 degrees higher than the hottest temperature ever recorded on earth and near the boiling point of water. But there is a point where both Celsius and Fahrenheit are the same, and that is at -40 C, which in Fahrenheit is also -40, the freezing point of mercury.

OverBurn

(923 posts)
55. How do they build an entire data command center under UNRWA nose, Everyone needs fired.
Mon Feb 12, 2024, 12:22 AM
Feb 12

I'd imagine a lot needs jailed.

Kennah

(13,698 posts)
58. Venturing onto the tree limb that risks being labeled a supporter of genocide, I'd say that UNRWA was in on it
Mon Feb 12, 2024, 02:29 AM
Feb 12
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