Boxer previously barred from women's events wins fight after opponent quits in 46 seconds
Source: NBC News
A boxer whose gender identity has recently been questioned won her first fight at the Paris Olympics on Thursday.
Imane Khelif of Algeria defeated Angela Carini of Italy after Carini quit 46 seconds into the match. Carini stopped the fight after only a few punches were exchanged, avoided shaking Khelif’s hand and then fell to the floor in tears.
Khelif’s participation in Olympic women’s boxing has been scrutinized in recent days after reports resurfaced that she and another boxer, Lin Yu‑ting of Taiwan, failed to meet gender eligibility tests at the Women’s World Boxing Championships in New Delhi last year. At the time, sporting officials alleged that the boxers failed an unspecified test because they had male chromosomes.
Read more: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/imane-khelif-boxing-win-olympics-gender-eligibility-rcna164662
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jimfields33
(19,382 posts)
Jirel
(2,369 posts)This is a manufactured controversy about not one, but two, powerful star women boxers who were disqualified by another body using outdated and unscientific rules in a previous world competition. The IOC rules are based on the best science available, and you can bet they vetted her extra hard. She passed without issue.
So, no controversy except in the puny-minds of those whose understanding of genetics and sexual development stopped in 5th grade.
Response to The Grand Illuminist (Original post)
Post removed
IronLionZion
(50,600 posts)some women are naturally high testosterone. Such women might take up boxing and be very good at it. Conservatives are spewing misinformation to promote their own agenda.
What’s Going On With the Two Women Boxers Who “Failed” a Gender Test
https://slate.com/culture/2024/08/olympic-boxers-gender-test-controversy-explained.html
Response to IronLionZion (Reply #3)
Post removed
RockRaven
(18,549 posts)
58Sunliner
(6,273 posts)Some have physical characteristics of women but also have gonads. Some have non-functioning ovaries, etc..
IronLionZion
(50,600 posts)Last edited Fri Aug 2, 2024, 09:22 AM - Edit history (1)
Imane Khelif of Algeria competed in the 2021 Olympics without even a peep from conservatives. 2024 is an election year in the US.
58Sunliner
(6,273 posts)"The IOC used to impose an across-the-board standard for acceptable testosterone levels, but it recently changed its guidelines. In 2021 it pushed the decision back to the governing bodies of each individual sport, allowing them to set their own acceptable ranges of the hormone." Kind of a closed loop. Did the IOC test at all?
The IOC "Since 2019, the IOC has delegated responsibility for the organization and management of doping control at the Olympic Games to the ITA."? They look for performance enhancing drugs and do not consider testosterone.
CTyankee
(67,682 posts)
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)
DJ Porkchop
(635 posts)She's come this far.
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)Imane Khelif has always defined herself as a woman, and has every right to compete—no matter what J.K. Rowling and Elon Musk have to say about it.
Algerian boxer Imane Khelif won her first match of the 2024 Paris Olympics when her opponent, Angela Carini of Italy, quit after taking several blows to the face in the opening seconds of the bout. The victory only fueled the misguided controversy around Khelif, who has been targeted by critics who have misgendered her throughout the Games.
Born in 1999 in Tiaret, Algeria, Khelif has been boxing since she was a child and has always competed in women's categories. In her career, she competed in the Women's World Boxing Championships in New Delhi in 2018 (finishing in 17th place), then competed in Russia the following year. She competed in the 2020 Tokyo Olympic Games, reaching all the way to the quarterfinals, and she finished second in the 2022 Women's World Championships in Istanbul.
...
The fact is that Khelif is participating in the Games because she is allowed to by the rules, and has passed the IOC's standards. “The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision,” said the Boxing Unit and IOC in a statement Thursday, referring to the IBA ban. “[It] was taken without any proper procedure—especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years. Such an approach is contrary to good governance.”
https://www.wired.com/story/imane-khelif-olympic-boxer-controversy/
-----
So...The loser lost because she -- unlike Khelif's previous opponents in her long career as a female boxer -- quit. The IOC has strict standards - and Imane Khelif has met all of them.
The language in the first article posted seems to side with JK Rowling, Elon Musk, and, let's see, the openly fascist Italian Georgia Meloni.
I'm sure we'll see this before too long on Fox, in another pathetic attempt to frame powerful and successful women as...men.
They're trying to sweeten their misogyny by coating it in transphobia. Too bad that tactic seems to be fooling some of the people.
stopdiggin
(14,859 posts)coming away with such a slant. It reported on both IOC defense of specific athletes - and importantly, the disassociation and disaccreditation of the IBA from the Olympics - the history of both athletes in top level women boxing competition. And then finally, some of the smears from the usual loud mouthed bigots. Which, unfortunately, have a certain amount of prominence - and reach. So - part of the story.
Certainly didn't seem like they were pushing the bigots side of the story ...
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)The subtitle of the article, which is often either the next most important message after the title, or a reason for the reader to continue, names these thugs, terfs, and trolls:
Trump, Elon Musk, J.K. Rowling and Italian Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni all appeared to criticize including Imane Khelif of Algeria.
And then the last six paragraphs go on to list conservative and rightwing voices piling on the bigotry. Not one outside source with a sane, fact-based perspective.
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)I made an archive version for the person up-thread who hit a paywall. As it turns out, my browser was blocking elements so I didn't get the whole article.
So the last six paragraphs weren't the haters, and there were supportive voices. None, however, got the prominent placement of the right-wingers.
stopdiggin
(14,859 posts)I think we agree to differ here?
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)Response to TommyT139 (Reply #6)
Post removed
sybylla
(8,655 posts)This Xitter post is from @algeria_FC and says the following:
Isn’t it interesting how at the 2020 Olympics, when Imane Khelif lost to Kellie Harrington 🇮🇪 in the quarterfinals, literally no one accused her of being a man?
It’s almost as if brain dead right wing morons will hope on any conspiracy theory train
Link to tweet
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,152 posts)Do you have the ability to pronounce someone’s gender from a photo? Shame on you.
tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)Weird.
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)A ciswoman! TERF!
John Shaft
(808 posts)What are you getting at?
Response to TommyT139 (Reply #6)
wolfie001 This message was self-deleted by its author.
onandup
(701 posts)She looked fine after the fight
?w=670
Jirel
(2,369 posts)Let’s not start this stupidity.
Fact: she was born and raised a girl.
Fact: her father tried to keep her out of boxing because it wasn’t “appropriate for girls.”
Fact: there are more than 2 sexes genetically, and even more variation in sexual development. “Male” and “female” in the “how you were taught about sex in 5th grade” sense” is the most common expression, but don’t mistake it for fully correct science.
Fact: physical development takes many forms from many genes. Tallness, lankiness, small boobs, broad shoulders, etc. are no more uniquely male traits than long hair, liking pink, and playing house indicates femaleness.
Fact: despite the small-minded complaints that she is somehow a “man,” she has been disqualified by puny brains only in 1 world competition AS WAS HER COMPETITOR who was stripped of her medal, because they were deemed questionably female. Hmm… is it possible that the top rank of female boxers tends to gravitate toward that type of physique, which is a combo of genetics and training?
Fact: This was well known by the IOC, and she was fully vetted by the IOC. The IOC has rules for people who are DSD (no standard sexual development), such as women who can produce and use testosterone naturally.
Fact: she is neither trans nor intersex.
So how about not acting like Rethuglucans, and celebrate this very BORN FEMALE star boxer?
Steven Maurer
(509 posts)Human beings are not all naturally 100% male or 100% female. With XY chromosomes, she appears to be one such case.
There are all sorts of reasons why this can happen. PAIS or Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (a male XY presenting morphologically as female, except with sperm-producing testes where the ovaries would be) is one example. Another possibility is that she's a chimera: in the womb her cells absorbed a twin brother, which produces testosterone. There are at least a dozen more genetic conditions like this.
None of these are her fault, and none of these make her any less the female that she identifies as.
The only issue is the presence of testosterone. Natural or not, it gives an unfair advantage. This is why juicing is not allowed in sports competitions.
I don't have an answer to this, and I'm certainly not on board with the TERF demonization of her. But the question about to what degree testosterone should be allowed is legitimate, especially in something as violent as boxing.
My hot take: maybe the Olympics should get rid of boxing. It's more violence than "sport".
LostOne4Ever
(9,730 posts)The best I could find is that the organization that banned her (A very corrupt organization that is heavily biased for Russia and banned her after she beat a Russian fighter) found that her T levels were high and "therefor she must be XY."
The organization in question has never released their results or even the type of test they used.
This could simply be a woman with PCOS or something similar and they might not be intersex at all.
Steven Maurer
(509 posts)...to admit that we're all speculating here. I'm just taking the XY chromosome report from the news reports. None of us have knowledge of the actual tests they performed. But if she wasn't intersex, why didn't she positively come out with a medical report of her own to disprove them authoritatively?
I mean it won't change the minds of the haters, but it would certainly put to rest any concerns of the doubters.
Calling any boxing organization "corrupt" is kind-of like calling water wet, IMHO. Even more the international soccer, boxing is an inherently corrupt sport.
obamanut2012
(29,105 posts)Only the corrupt, Russian-led IBA says this.
Steven Maurer
(509 posts)...presently has a Russian occupying its rotating presidency.
When it's Russia's turn to chair the UN Security Council, that doesn't make the UN a Russian association.
To be clear, the IBA says that medical tests were done that proves the presence of XY chromosomes. There has been no counter-evidence offered -- which would be trivial to do to disprove this, if the initial determination wasn't true. The fact that she declined to take this obvious step is itself a form of evidence.
Unfounded accusations of lying, on the other hand, is not evidence.
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,152 posts)She’s 9-5. Should we ban Lebron because he has an unfair advantage over the 5’7 accountant playing at the YMCA? Physical advantages are part of sport.
Shrek
(4,378 posts)It's like saying taller basketball players have an unfair advantage due to height.
Naturally occurring physical advantages are present in every sport.
Zeitghost
(4,557 posts)No matter how one views the participation of transwomen in combat sports, that is not the issue here.
Jirel
(2,369 posts)There are many genetic versions of male and female. Variances do not make a person “intersex.” That is 5th grade sex ed, not modern biological understanding. Learn something about Swyer Syndrome - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6586948/
Testosterone is not a problem here. Newsflash - endocrinology is a crazy science because our bodies and hormonal systems are crazy complicated and varied. But the bottom line is that EVERY WOMAN PRODUCES TESTOSTERONE NATURALLY, and it is even a medical problem that is treated, when women produce too little testosterone. Women can naturally, or because of a problem like PCOS, have high testosterone, and it’s not unusual. Learn something here - https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/24639-hyperandrogenism
Women with high testosterone are totally legit, and the transphobes are getting to you if you think there’s some unfair advantage in competing with it. Should Simone Biles’ “excess shortness” and low center of mass be considered unfair? How about Michael Phelps’ naturally low production of lactic acid? Is it unfair that Usain Bolt is so tall and his stride is much longer than any of his competitors’? Is Brady Ellison’s natural 20/10 eyesight unfair when he competes in archery? It’s common for distance runners to have a gene that lowers blood pressure. Should they not compete with runners lacking the gene?
The bottom line is that this manufactured controversy is born out of the ugliest transphobia, and worse yet, is targeting an amazing young woman who succeeded DESPITE being a woman in a misogynistic family and society.
obamanut2012
(29,105 posts)Only the corrupt, Russian-led IBA says they have "proof." Soemwhere hidden.
underpants
(194,297 posts)My daughter spelled this out for me tonight.
I just posted this. I hadn’t seen this thread or your wonderful post. Thank you.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219274621
LostOne4Ever
(9,730 posts)I am wanting to post some stuff about this but am too busy at the moment find time to do so.
tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)The TERFiest of TERFy
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)Depsite that there are rules against it, people are still allowed to be transphobic so long as they use certain buzz words
stopdiggin
(14,859 posts)https://olympics.com/ioc/news/joint-paris-2024-boxing-unit-ioc-statement
All athletes participating in the boxing tournament of the Olympic Games Paris 2024 comply with the competition’s eligibility and entry regulations, as well as all applicable medical regulations set by the Paris 2024 Boxing Unit (PBU) (please find all applicable rules here). As with previous Olympic boxing competitions, the gender and age of the athletes are based on their passport.
- snip - We have seen in reports misleading information about two female athletes competing at the Olympic Games Paris 2024. The two athletes have been competing in international boxing competitions for many years in the women’s category, including the Olympic Games Tokyo 2020, International Boxing Association (IBA) World Championships and IBA-sanctioned tournaments.
These two athletes were the victims of a sudden and arbitrary decision by the IBA. Towards the end of the IBA World Championships in 2023, they were suddenly disqualified without any due process.
According to the IBA minutes available on their website, this decision was initially taken solely by the IBA Secretary General and CEO. The IBA Board only ratified it afterwards and only subsequently requested that a procedure to follow in similar cases in the future be established and reflected in the IBA Regulations. The minutes also say that the IBA should “establish a clear procedure on gender testing”.
The current aggression against these two athletes is based entirely on this arbitrary decision, which was taken without any proper procedure – especially considering that these athletes had been competing in top-level competition for many years.
Such an approach is contrary to good governance.
Response to stopdiggin (Reply #9)
Post removed
underpants
(194,297 posts)Thank you for posting facts.
I posted this a minute ago having not seen this thread.
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100219274621
Response to The Grand Illuminist (Original post)
Post removed
sybylla
(8,655 posts)What happened to women supporting women? Because she isn't white or blonde or dainty she is somehow not a woman? Women come in all shapes, sizes, and colors. Always have. I had a very sweet great-aunt that looked like a man in drag, but married and had 5 kids. I hate to think what TERFs would be saying about her today. I went to school with women whose build was more like the boys. So what?
If the IOC has repeatedly reviewed her health status and she passes their requirements, STFU and sit down.
That poor widdle Italian woman needs to learn how to fucking box. Italy did not send their best.
regnaD kciN
(27,399 posts)…apparently even here on DU.
ShazzieB
(22,069 posts)Seeing this kind of TERF b.s. at DU is really disheartening. 😔
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)...that misgendering is against the TOS.
tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)
radical noodle
(10,443 posts)make one a male. And not having a Y chromosome doesn't make a male a female. About 1 in 20,000 men have no Y chromosome. I'm not an expert by any means but it's easy to do a little research.
BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)She didn't "go through male puberty." She isn't a male.
This whole "scandal" is a great example of how low-intellect many right-wing people are. They're seriously arguing that ALGERIA (of all countries) sent a "woke transgender boxer" to the Olympics, a claim so utterly moronic that it's difficult to fathom in its sheer idiocy.
TommyT139
(2,118 posts)tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)eom
ShazzieB
(22,069 posts)stopdiggin
(14,859 posts)Otherwise - please take a seat.
(you are spouting things of which you have no knowledge or basis for opinion )
tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)As a transwoman, she is a cis. I'm trans. But you'd never know unless you fucking literally do a test. You're on the wrong site if you're gonna spout this shit off sweetheart.
LostOne4Ever
(9,730 posts)And depending on the intersex condition (if it is even that) probably had no advantage at all.
Because neither of the two main types of XY female intersex conditions give any advantage.
blogslug
(39,067 posts)Misgendering, worm-brained TERF hate speech.
John Shaft
(808 posts)wow.
Gore1FL
(22,793 posts)They really need to make up their minds in how they want to be bigoted; this contradictory stuff makes them look, well, weird.
wolfie001
(6,690 posts)I think, in his case, it's more of protecting the upper elite in Brit society. They are so removed from the gritty, day-to-day of regular people. Rowling's position is one of hatred. It's also curiously couched in a kind of "what about me and my womanhood" bit. She's also on the way to becoming a billionaire so, really? She's the victim? 
Silent Type
(12,285 posts)
moonshinegnomie
(3,788 posts)The IBA has pretty much zero credibility anymore. They were basically taken over by russia. the refuse to disclose exactly what test she supposedly failed. they have been accused of fixing boxing matches. the olympics kicked them out,the first time they have done that to a sports federation.
heres the wikipedia article about it all. look at from 2020 on
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Boxing_Association
ShazzieB
(22,069 posts)This one paragraph says volumes, imo:
In other words, IBA's opinion ain't worth shit!
ForgoTheConsequence
(5,152 posts)This site is no longer safe for some of us just because of how we were born.
ShazzieB
(22,069 posts)I apologize on behalf of all of us here who know better. This TERF crap I'm seeing in here is garbage! 
tenderfoot
(8,982 posts)eom
vercetti2021
(10,481 posts)Reason I barely get on DU anymore. Its more of TERF Underground despite "rules" being in place to prevent it.
Response to vercetti2021 (Reply #69)
John Shaft This message was self-deleted by its author.
Skittles
(168,938 posts)alas, assholes can be found ANYWHERE 
IronLionZion
(50,600 posts)Angela Carini got hit in the nose hard right in the beginning and was in tears from the pain. Conservatives are trying to make this about something it isn't.
Jk23
(455 posts)Reem Alsalem, the UN special rapporteur on violence against women and girls, expressed her concern about what had happened. “Angela Carini rightly followed her instincts and prioritised her physical safety, but she and other female athletes should not have been exposed to this physical and psychological violence based on their sex,” she tweeted.
róisín_dubh
(12,209 posts)Am I reading that correctly? This is a disturbing tweet.
Carini is a boxer. She exposes herself to violence daily when she trains. WTF is Alsalem on about?
Response to The Grand Illuminist (Original post)
58Sunliner This message was self-deleted by its author.
Frasier Balzov
(4,764 posts)in which people hit each other?
usonian
(22,923 posts)🪷
Skittles
(168,938 posts)it's.....barbaric
RockRaven
(18,549 posts)Please expose yourselves so we know who is who.
58Sunliner
(6,273 posts)These athletes tested as XY, genetically male with high testosterone. It asks the question how do we protect women's sports?
RockRaven
(18,549 posts)about their chromosomes or hormone levels, and encouraging all women to compete and do their bests and not worrying so much about the myth that some Platonic ideal of fair sport exists in the real world? Have we tried that?
Skittles
(168,938 posts)because I notice that most people weighing in on this "issue" have previously not shown any interest in "women's sports"
58Sunliner
(6,273 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,730 posts)You are thinking of CAIS.
Swyer’s causes streak gonands which means undifferentiated. Since they don’t develop testes they don’t have high T.
CAIS have high T but can’t utilize it meaning their body reacts as though they have 0 T.
Neither give any sports advantage.
58Sunliner
(6,273 posts)And given the circumstances of known reasons why women test XY, the high T is even more anomalous.
Response to 58Sunliner (Reply #88)
Post removed
onandup
(701 posts)This boxer was considered a girl at birth and raised as a girl.
Jakes Progress
(11,213 posts)right wing sensationalism and lies work even on Democrats sometimes.
Read more than the X posts and the media repeating the X posts. This is more a matter of a Russian oligarch who ran the IBO having a fight with IOC leaders. If the woman was supposed to be using male superiority to win, she isn't her good at it. Check her record.
Criminy. Check the sources.
John Shaft
(808 posts)on a site named DemocraticUnderground.com.
I've noticed more than a few conservaturds hiding in plain sight here. They don't even try to "hide" that well either.
MichMan
(16,453 posts)BrianTheEVGuy
(697 posts)"Gender and sex are the same and are determined by gametes and genitals!"
OK, Khaleif has a vagina, uterus and ovaries.
"That's a woman then. And a woman can never change sex to be a man."
By the way, Khaleif is the athlete you're demanding be excluded from competing in women's boxing.
"That athlete is male! They had hints of a Y chromosome!"
Ah so it's chromosomes that determine sex and gender and not gametes and reproductive systems?
"In this case, yes."
So can a man get pregnant?
"Of course not! Don't be a ridiculous woke extremist! No man can get pregnant!"
Khaleif can, and you just said that...
"Stop getting all technical on me! For the purposes of using the bathroom and getting pregnant, Khaleif is a woman, but as an athlete Khaleif is a man!"
So you can change your gender?
"DISCRIMINATORY OPERATING SYSTEM KERNEL PANIC. PLEASE REBOOT THE HATER"
Aussie105
(7,496 posts)It really, really isn't.
You can have X0, XX, YY, XYY, XXY, XXYY individuals.
Mind you some of those combinations are fatal soon after conception or early in gestation.
And then some genetic combinations of the normal male pattern present as females due to hormone insensitivity.
Some examples:
"Turner Syndrome: This condition affects females who typically have only one X chromosome (45,X). Symptoms include short stature, webbed neck, and incomplete development of secondary sexual characteristics1.
Klinefelter syndrome
Klinefelter Syndrome: Males with this condition have an extra X chromosome (47,XXY). They may have reduced muscle mass, less facial and body hair, and enlarged breast tissue1.
Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (AIS): Individuals with AIS have a male XY karyotype but are resistant to male hormones (androgens). As a result, they may develop female physical traits despite having male chromosomes.
Congenital adrenal hyperplasia
Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH): This condition affects the adrenal glands, leading to an overproduction of androgens. It can cause ambiguous genitalia in females and early puberty in both sexes."
Let's just say:
The young lady boxer isn't someone anyone of us here would like to touch gloves with.
Response to Aussie105 (Reply #74)
Post removed
obamanut2012
(29,105 posts)Because it doesn't exist. It is a literal Russian lie.
Tommy Carcetti
(44,351 posts)There should be absolutely no controversy over this at all.
obamanut2012
(29,105 posts)Who ha no problem with her until she beat a Russian boxer at the 2023 Worlds. Then, they said they had tests and proof, but they won't show them. No proof she has a Y chromosome or high T. Zip. And, you know they would show it.
The IBA is so corrupt, the IOC took over OLympic boxing and may ax it next time because there si no legitimate boxing org to oversee it. Think how corrupt they are here to make the IOC the ones who have to uphold integrity.
IBA makes FIFA look legit.
ALL of this is Russian and Italian-Fascist promoted. The Italian boxer is a cop and a member of their fascist party. Mussolina meet with the ITA boxer and told her Th's mean trans people will pay for this, and there is a PR pic of Mussolina loving caressing the quitter's face.
THIS is why this garbage is so sick -- transphobia exists to control all women and make them conform to trad gender standards. Butch straight women are getting attacked, ordinary women. katie ledecky is being called a man. WOC are also the ones most attacked by this. It's sick.
Thank you, Tommy. Your post helped me vent. I am really angry. Including at the p[eople on this site who love to spew transphobia because they are "concerned."
Chakaconcarne
(2,770 posts)She didn't even try....
The Grand Illuminist
(1,951 posts)Was surprised she made the team at all.
onandup
(701 posts)She quit because getting punched "hurt". Yeah that happens in boxing.
The Grand Illuminist
(1,951 posts)She be dead long ago as stated in Algerian law.
IronLionZion
(50,600 posts)they don't allow transgender medical treatments in that conservative Islamic country.
mucholderthandirt
(1,738 posts)The fact is, gender is a spectrum. It's not the long-held notion of either/or. We'll have to maybe change some things in sports to accommodate this. Some way to match competitors evenly. I can't say if it will be fair, or inclusive, but I know how society can be. Likely to be a huge struggle and take a long time.
I do know that I have no issues with gay people, trans people, people who aren't either sex, or care about sex, people who like both sexes. Or whatever. We are who we are. It doesn't hurt anyone to be accepting.
Also, researching some stuff posted here, I learned that older fathers are more likely to have girls. My daddy was 28 when I was born, his first child, female, and he had two boys and four girls altogether. Didn't learn that in sex ed!