Hamas says it won't take part in Gaza hostage-ceasefire deal talks

[Ramsey Barner]

Source: Axios

Hamas announced on Sunday that it rejects the invitation by the U.S., Qatar and Egypt for a final round of negotiations over the Gaza hostage and ceasefire deal planned for Thursday.

Hamas' announcement is a significant setback for the Biden administration's efforts to reach a hostage and ceasefire deal and prevent the Gaza conflict from escalating into a regional war.

In a statement, Hamas claimed several reasons for its decision: the new conditions and demands presented recently by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli assassination of Hamas political leader Ismail Haniyeh and recent Israeli airstrikes in Gaza that killed dozens of Palestinians, many of them civilians.

A senior Israeli official involved in the negotiations claimed Hamas' statement is "a tactical move ahead of a possible attack by Iran and Hezbollah and in an attempt to get better terms for the deal." The official added: "If Hamas won't come to the table, we will continue decimating their forces in Gaza."

Read more: https://www.axios.com/2024/08/11/gaza-hostage-ceasefire-deal-hamas-talks

[elleng]

1. No sh*t, sherlock.

[jimfields33]

77. They are the worst characters in this from day one.

Can everyone finally agree to this now? Israel needs to continue to get rid of them as clearly they are not for peace.

[Orrex]

2. Yeah, that's about what we'd expect from a terrorist regime.

[AloeVera]

8. Israel?

[elias7]

9. Educate yourself

Stop falling for the propaganda

[AloeVera]

13. Lol. N/T

[canuckledragger]

17. We have. That's why we don't support the genocidal far right regime.

Stop projecting.

[ColinC]

19. Some folks can't even admit Israel broke the last truce

I hope they take their own advice and educate themselves. As well as not falling for propaganda….

[Beastly Boy]

84. Yeah, those folks include Israel, Hamas and the UN, among many others.

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2024, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Just to think, so many people with so many conflicting interests falling for the same propaganda!

What's the world coming to?

[ColinC]

88. Sans the UN and Hamas, you are right.

We covered the UN, whose reports substantiated who shot first. We might not agree on that and that’s okay.

But do you really think Hamas agreed they broke the ceasefire? That’s just silly.

Hamas in a statement issued Friday afternoon local time said Israel "bears full responsibility" for the breakdown of the cease-fire. In all-night negotiations, the Islamist militant group said it "offered to exchange prisoners and the elderly (and) ... offered to hand over the bodies of those killed and detained as a result of the Israeli bombing."

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216333362/israel-hamas-ceasefire-combat-gaza-hostages

[Beastly Boy]

89. We did indeed cover the topic ad nauseum.

And I am still awaiting any confirmation from any of the parties involved that the cease fire had been broken.

Just to make it clear: you are not one of the parties involved.

[ColinC]

92. Thankfully I am not.

Although I interpret “Break down of the ceasefire” as breaking the ceasefire.

Which Hamas clearly blames Israel for. The semantics in this discussion are amusing…

Perhaps there are specific IR/ foreign policy terms that define these situations more clearly for our understanding? Because “not ceasing fire” by means of an artillery attack -to a normal person, definitely screams of breaking a ceasefire.

And blaming Israel for a “breakdown of a ceasefire” really does sound like blaming them for breaking the ceasefire. What gives?

[Beastly Boy]

97. So your authority is Hamas?

Hamas blames Israel for existing. Does this mean Israel's existence is not legitimate?

Give me a break!

[ColinC]

98. I was disputing your claim that Hamas doesn't think Israel broke the ceasefire.

I offered an olive branch in my last post, it doesn’t seem like you took it

I also thought it would be silly to think Hamas wouldn’t blame Israel for breaking the ceasefire for the reasons you stated.

[Beastly Boy]

101. I appreciate your olive branch, but not at the expense of accepting a faulty argument.

The indisputable fact remains: none of the parties involved claimed the cease fire was broken prior to its designated expiration.

[ColinC]

102. "...prior to its designated expiration"

Fair enough!

[Beastly Boy]

104. That's the period of time in question, isn't it?

[ColinC]

106. Sort of. I think the situation is fairly complicated.

Last edited Mon Aug 12, 2024, 05:05 PM - Edit history (2)

There was clearly a breakdown of civility within the time of the ceasefire while both sides tried to maintain a non-war environment until the ceasefire expired. During the ceasefire there were absolutely no accusations of breaking it, but from my understanding those reported “breakdowns” (ie artillery fire, etc)contributed to the ceasefire expiring.

I’m claiming that the breakdown of civility in the reported cases are equivalent to breaking the ceasefire regardless of whether it was claimed before the ceasefire ended. However I hear you on the fact that nobody claimed the ceasefire was broken before it expired, therefore one can credibly argue the ceasefire was not officially broken.

Again: the semantics of what qualifies as a broken ceasefire alludes me, but you have one clear definition you provided which I can respect -even if I might not entirely agree with that definition by itself.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

20. Awww, you shouldn't be so hard on HAMAs,

they might not like being labeled that way.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

31. What does Canada have to do with this? NT

[canuckledragger]

34. Every country has an interest in preventing genocide.

[canuckledragger]

42. And you're in for a short stay here.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

44. The global community rejects your genocide of First Nations. NT

[canuckledragger]

45. The global community rejects the far right Israeli governments' genocide against it's neighbours.

Fixed that for you, troll.

[ShazzieB]

62. The Canadian flag is that member's avatar.

It automatically appears on all their posts, just like Rachel Maddow appears on mine.

You can have one, too, if you want. Go to your profile, scroll down to where it says Avatar Image and click the box that says "Edit Avatar Image." A list of categories will appear. Click until you find an image you like, and follow the directions to set it as your Avatar. Have fun!

[elias7]

81. No one supports a genocidal regime, although those who support Hamas make me wonder

It is Hamas whose charter calls for the murder of Jews. It is Hamas who engaged in wanton rape and torture literally targeting innocent Israeli civilians (the ones most interested in peace with Gaza), filmed it, cheered about it got paid for killing Jews.

Israel has been accused of genocide for decades while the population of Arabs in Gaza grows and grows. Genocide legally requires intent to destroy a people yet the IDF warning civilians - dropping leaflets, using cell phones to text and call to warn civilians, dropping dummy blast on buildings they are planning to level - these things warn civilians to clear out, not exactly what one would expect from a genocidal people.

People keep claiming that close to 40k people have been killed in Gaza, yet 1) these are Hamas’ unchecked numbers; 2) they don’t differentiate between innocent civilians and enemy combatants; 3) we don’t know how many of these civilians have been either intentionally targeted by Hamas for trying to flee or accidentally blown up by Hamas and Islamic Jihad misfires.

Please tell me how I am projecting and please answer why Hamas is using its civilian population as human shields, why they indoctrinate their kids in schools to hate to to kill Jews, and why you would support a group that engages in sexual terrorism and cheers about it.

[canuckledragger]

82. Israel is accused of genocide because that's what they've been doing.

And all the lies and propaganda pushed won't change that fact.

And nobody is supporting Hamas here. So you can stop lying about that and accusing me of things I have not said or posted.That's always been a convenient bogeyman and scapegoat used whenever the far right Israeli government want to bomb civilians and steal land, and by those that don't want to acknowledge those facts.

[elias7]

113. I disagree. How are you defining genocide? What time frame are you using?

Many are accusing Israel of genocide since they responded to Hamas’ attack on 10/7, many have been accusing Israel of genocide for decades.

You can’t just say Israel is committing genocide because they are committing genocide. That’s just a circular argument. Please be specific regarding your legal definition and how you believe Israeli actions meet that definition.

I’ll reiterate that Israel has no interest in killing innocent civilians and whether you believe it or not, they evidence does suggest they have taken great pains to avoid civilian casualties, despite Hamas working hard to maximize its own civilian casualties. Is it that you disagree that Israel is engaged in efforts to avoid civilians or do you think they are lying?

[canuckledragger]

114. Yes you can accuse the far right Israeli government of genocide as they've been caught doing it.

And all the excuses and moving the goalposts won't change that fact.

Israel has every interest in killing innocent civilians to steal their land, as they've been doing for decades, calling them Hamas to justify their atrocities whenever the heat got too much for them on the international stage.

Are you going to accuse Chef Andre and his crew Hamas too, when they were deliberately targeted and murdered en-route to a site?

Yes I disagree that they're 'engaged in efforts to avoid civilians' when they purposely bomb the routes they tell refugees to take, etc, and they lie about the reasons they do, calling them Hamas whenever word gets out.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/may/02/israel-gaza-lies-western-backers

[Oopsie Daisy]

149. Good advice. But I think it's too late.

[ShazzieB]

56. Very funny. 🙄

Now go read the OP (again, if necessary), and note who said they're not coming to the bargaining table.

HINT: It's not Israel.

[AloeVera]

122. I don't know if you are aware...

That the only side that did NOT accept Biden's framework for a ceasefire and roadmap to peace in its entirety is...

Hint: it's not Hamas.

Hamas wants Biden's framework enforced. OTOH Israel added two new conditions and assassinated the lead negotiator.

What is there to negotiate when one side won't agree to a ceasefire proposal Biden described as its very own?

As one side is fully willing to go and the other side is not, perhaps its time to deal with that side's intransigence and warmongering by cutting off its weapons.

[Beastly Boy]

135. Did I hear correctly?

Hamas insists on the cease fire conditions they rejected a few weeks ago?

Wow, what an unwavering commitment to the Biden plan!

No chance in hell they will change their minds two weeks from now!

Three weeks from now? No comment...

In anticipation of your response: The "Biden plan" hamas approved is not the Biden plan. It is the Biden plan with a bunch of additional conditions Hamas knew would derail the negotiations slapped on top of the Biden plan. And if they insist on the cease fire conditions that are in their not Biden plan, everybody knows how it's going to end up, don't we?

[AloeVera]

136. You are quite wrong. Again.

Hamas accepted Biden's framework on July 6th.

Netanyahu's response was to add two new, controversial and significant demands. It caused friction within his own cabinet.

Hamas insists on the original framework and the July 6th acceptance.

It's not that complicated; but as is your habit, you claim what is not true.

See post 133 and 134.

I'm done here.

[Beastly Boy]

148. I am quite not wrong, as your excerpts in post 133 and 134 clearly show:

the movement calls on the mediators to submit a plan to implement what they presented to the movement and approved on July 2, based on Biden's vision and [UN] Security Council resolution," Hamas said in its statement.

What did they present to the "movement"? What did the "movement" approve on July 2? Oh, something "based on Biden's vision"!, not the Biden plan!

Did anyone other than Hamas approve their plan? Did Biden? Did Israel?

You don't get to tell me what this means exactly.

...If you ever visit New York's Chinatown and you see something that is based on the Rolex design and approved to have a Rolex name on it by the store owner, beware: there is a minuscule probability (around 100%) that this is not a Rolex.

[Beastly Boy]

3. Someone doesn't want Cease Fire Now.

Cue in the obligatory outrage.

I'll wait...

[ColinC]

4. Israel BROKE the last ceasefire

Why would we expect them to honor a new one anyways?

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/1/the-israel-hamas-truce-has-ended-what-we-know-so-far

The UN humanitarian office, OCHA, reported that despite the pause in fighting, Israeli forces shot at Palestinians in Gaza on November 29, killing two people. They also shelled people on November 30.

[Beastly Boy]

5. Israel DIDN'T BREAK the last ceasefire. Resumption of hostilitiees is what happens when cease fires expire.

I am still waiting...

Where is the outrage?

[ColinC]

6. I literally just cited a credible source (The UN) showing they broke it

BEFORE the ceasefire expired. Just gonna pretend that wasn’t there?

[Beastly Boy]

7. You didn't even figuratively cite a credible source.

The source, whose credibility is rather dubious, is an Al Jazeera article, which literally starts with this:

"The Israel-Hamas truce has ended: What we know so far.
Israel resumed its deadly aerial bombardment on Gaza, minutes after the truce expired."

Do you pay attention to what you are posting?

Still waiting...

Where is the outrage?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

11. Don't you know that facts don't matter when it comes to Israel? nt

[Beastly Boy]

14. I am so naive. I keep reacting to this as if it is something that shouldn't be tolerated. So behind the times!

[ColinC]

18. The truce expired on Dec 1.

The UN humanitarian office, OCHA, reported that despite the pause in fighting, Israeli forces shot at Palestinians in Gaza on November 29, killing two people. They also shelled people on November 30.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/1/the-israel-hamas-truce-has-ended-what-we-know-so-far

I don’t know of a world where killing people during a ceasefire is not breaking it.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

21. I noticed that you left this part out.

An hour before the truce was supposed to end, at 7am (05:00 GMT), the Israeli military announced that its Iron Dome missile defence system had detected incoming rockets. After that, they “intercepted a launch from Gaza”.

But I expected that.

[ColinC]

26. I notice you left out that was after the shelling Israel conducted on Nov 30

Which was well before an hour before the truce expired.


But I expected that.

[AloeVera]

24. Thank you, was about to post the same thing.

There was still a ceasefire on Nov. 29 a d 30th.

I don’t know of a world where killing people during a ceasefire is not breaking it.

In the world of I/P, killing Palestinians is not considered breaking a truce by Israel. See the killings in the West Bank following the May 2023 truce or the aerial strikes on Gaza weeks before Oct 7th.

As long as Israel does it, it's ok.

[ColinC]

28. "If Israel does it it's okay"

Pretty much

[ColinC]

16. Expiration of truce: Dec 1. Shelling and killing: November 29 and 30

The UN humanitarian office, OCHA, reported that despite the pause in fighting, Israeli forces shot at Palestinians in Gaza on November 29, killing two people. They also shelled people on November 30.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/1/the-israel-hamas-truce-has-ended-what-we-know-so-far

In what world is “killing people during a truce” not breaking it?

Again I literally cited everything you needed. You just had to look at it.

[Beastly Boy]

22. You are not reading the sources Al Jazeera cites either.

While the humanitarian pause that started on 24 November has largely held , sporadic incidents have been reported. On 29 November, at about 18:00, Israeli troops reportedly opened fire at Palestinians in northern Gaza city, killing two of them; the circumstances remain unclear. On 30 November, additional shooting incidents were reported in Gaza city, as well as shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south, none of which resulted in casualties.

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-55

This didn't, per OCHA, violate the cease fire.

Still waiting...

[ColinC]

23. You are playing fast and loose with the truth

There is no dispute that Israel shelled and killed civilians before the ceasefire ended. This is entirely in Palestinian territory. There is no circumstances of Israel killing civilians that would not mean they broke the truce.

[Beastly Boy]

25. You didn't read the part of the OCHA report I bolded either, didja?

OK, here it is again: "The circumstances remain unclear." if this is not a dispute of the cease fire violation, the Pope is not Catholic.

Where in the report does it state that the killed Palestinians were civilians? Where is the report of the shelling? What is your certainty that IDF didn't return fire based on? Who, if not OSHA, is there to determine whether or not there was a violation of cease fire? Certainly not a random poster on DU!

Still waiting....

[ColinC]

27. You seem to think that report you boldened supports your claims, but it doesn't.

Considering there is no dispute as to whether the actual shelling and shooting occurred before the truce expired (regardless of the circumstances which you think somehow are incredibly relevant)

I don’t care how you stack it, any shelling before the expiration and any killing, is breaking the ceasefire.

[Beastly Boy]

32. I only have one claim: the cease fire you claim was violated, was not violated.

And I am still searching, in vain, for the confirmation of your claim from a legitimate source. To no avail.

You appear to struggle with the same problem.

Still waiting...

[elias7]

10. "minutes after the truce expired"

Israel broke nothing

[ColinC]

15. The truce expired on December 1. The shelling and killing began November 29 and 30.

You saw that, right?

Just in case here it is again:

The UN humanitarian office, OCHA, reported that despite the pause in fighting, Israeli forces shot at Palestinians in Gaza on November 29, killing two people. They also shelled people on November 30.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/12/1/the-israel-hamas-truce-has-ended-what-we-know-so-far

Unless for some reason killing people during a ceasefire is not breaking it.

[Beastly Boy]

33. There was no shelling reported. The circumstances of the shooting remain unclear.

These are exactly the reason killing people is not a violation of cease fire in this case.

[ColinC]

36. From your post above:

On 30 November, additional shooting incidents were reported in Gaza city, as well as shelling by the Israeli navy towards the Gaza shore in the south, none of which resulted in casualties.

Even if the details of the shootings mattered, the shelling itself is unequivocally breaking the ceasefire.

[Beastly Boy]

38. My mistake. There were reports of killing without shelling, and reports of shelling without casualties.

This doesn't change the essence of the report: not even a hint of a suggestion from the UN that either one amounted to violating the cease fire, your opinion notwithstanding.

[ColinC]

39. It changes it entirely. Shelling of any kind is violating the ceasefire

Ceasefire means ceasing fire. Not ceasing killing. Just because the ceasefire”largely held” does not mean these actions amounted to “not breaking the ceasefire.” In the end that is a determination that Hamas and Israel are to make, not the UN. A conclusion I imagine they drew because the ceasefire was not extended.

The question, then, is who shot first to keep the ceasefire from standing -with all reports and evidence pointing to Israel.

[Beastly Boy]

48. No it does not.

Where did you get the idea that shelling in itself changes anything about a cease fire? Other than your own statement, can you show me a single confirmation of this?

And naturally, cease fire being largely held means exactly the same as cease fire not being broken. You don't break a cease fire just a little bit. Since neither Israel nor Hamas, nor the UN considered this a violation of the cease fire at the time, the cease fire was not broken..

BTW, if you maintain that only Israel or Hamas make this determination, it follows that you don't. So, even by your own standards and your own words, the cease fire held.

And with that, I feel confident that you can continue this argument amongst you and yourself without any further need for my input.

Enjoy!

[ColinC]

53. A "ceasefire" means "ceasing fire"

Shelling people is the opposite of ceasing that fire.

Call me crazy for thinking that firing on people is not ceasing such fire?

[lapucelle]

60. The US Department of State says Hamas broke the ceasefire.

Speaking just before his departure from Dubai at the end of a two-day Middle East visit, Mr. Blinken said it was “important to understand why the pause came to an end: It came to an end because of Hamas. Hamas reneged on commitments it made.”

Israel has also publicly blamed Hamas for the end of the temporary truce, but Hamas has said Israeli airstrikes were to blame.

Mr. Blinken noted that, hours before the early morning rupture of the seven-day pause, Hamas “committed an atrocious terrorist attack in Jerusalem,” killing three people on Thursday. Israeli authorities said two Palestinian gunmen opened fire near a bus stop on the outskirts of Jerusalem in an attack that also wounded six others.

Mr. Blinken added that Hamas also fired rockets into Israel on Friday and failed to free hostages it had pledged to release.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/blinken-hamas-israel-truce.html

[ColinC]

61. Respectfully

The UN is far more of an impartial entity than the United States and the incidents Blinken references all occurred after the verified reports from the UN organization.

[ShazzieB]

64. Oh. So you're calling Antony Blinken a liar?

Nice.

[ColinC]

69. No.

I’m calling him partial to Israeli interests since they are one of our closest allies.

[ShazzieB]

74. Same difference.

See also reply #73.

[lapucelle]

68. You think that the UN is more credible than the US Department of State?

When did OCHA "verify" the reports?

Sorry, but I believe Joe Biden's Secretary of State.

[ShazzieB]

73. So do I.

I have a huge amount of respect for Secretary Blinken. To the extent that anyone implying he's less than trustworthy rubs me the wrong way.

[ColinC]

78. I think the UN is less partial than the United States

This has nothing to do with Blinken

[lapucelle]

90. The US delegation (among other Western democracies) has called out the UN for NOT being impartial.

Statement on U.S. Opposition to Human Rights Council Anti-Israel Agenda Item

“While we are making some progress on reversing the anti-Israel bias at the UN in New York, regrettably, today in Geneva, the UN Human Rights Council begins debate on the only country permanently on the body’s calendar. It is not Syria, where the regime has systematically slaughtered and tortured its own people. It is not Iran, where public hangings are a regular occurrence. It is not North Korea, where the regime uses forced labor camps to crush its people into submission. It is Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East.

“The so-called ‘Agenda Item 7’ discredits the standing of the only UN body specifically designed to address the state of global human rights by allowing nations to distract from their own abuses back home by churning out anti-Israel propaganda. As a result, the United States will not participate in discussions under Agenda Item 7 at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, other than to vote against the outrageous, one-sided, anti-Israel resolutions that so diminish what the Human Rights Council should be, and we encourage other Council members who purport to be defenders of human rights to do the same.”

https://usun.usmission.gov/statement-on-u-s-opposition-to-human-rights-council-anti-israel-agenda-item/

----------------------------------------

Background on Item 7

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon criticized this act of selectivity a day after it was instituted. On June 20, 2007, Mr. Ban “voiced disappointment at the council decision to single out Israel as the only specific regional item on its agenda, given the range and scope of allegations of human rights violations throughout the world.”

In addition, Western democracies have on numerous occasions stated their opposition to Item 7. In statements delivered before and after its adoption, traditional supporters of human rights opposed the agenda item as biased. The UK said that “the practice of ‘singling out one’ risked undermining the Human Rights Council’s own principles.” France “regretted that the agenda was imbalanced by the singling out of Palestine, which was contrary to non-selectivity.”

Australia and the Netherlands expressed similar objections, describing the agenda item as “unhelpful.” Canada said the Council breached its own principles of universality, impartiality, objectivity, and non-selectivity. Targeting any UN member state, said Canada, was “politicized, selective, partial, and subjective.” The US has also been a forceful opponent of Item 7.

Importantly, as a general rule today, the US, the EU and other democracies no longer speak under Item 7. Rather, they voice any of their criticisms of Israel and the Palestinian Authority during the general debate on all country human rights situations, which is Item 4.

https://unwatch.org/agenda-item-7-country-claims-and-un-watch-responses/

[ColinC]

94. I appreciate the resources you are sharing and plan to look at them in the near future.

Thanks!!

[lapucelle]

96. Thank you for that.

[lapucelle]

91. My advice is to take whatever Qatari state media publishes with a large grain of salt

and then see how the rest of the world press is reporting the event.

Qatari state media tried to frame the narrative through misdirection to an OCHA report that actually clearly states that the ceasefire was intact despite reports of skirmishes.

The fact remains that the ceasefire ended because Hamas reneged on the agreement to release female hostages, and instead told negotiators that they would release old men and dead bodies.

What do you think would have happened to the remaining living hostages if Israel had agreed to accept dead bodies instead of live hostages? Who would have accepted that unilateral change in the negotiated terms?

--------------------------------------------

Even Hamas admitted that the ceasefire ended over the Israel's refusal to accept old men and dead bodies in lieu of the agreed-to women and children held hostage as per the ceasefire agreement.

Hamas blamed Israel for the resumption in fighting, saying it refused "to accept all offers to release other hostages".

"The occupation had a prior decision to resume the criminal aggression," it said in a statement, blaming US President Joe Biden for "the continuation of Zionist war crimes in the Gaza Strip" and "giving the green light to Israel".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67589259

===========================

Israel resumes airstrikes after it says Hamas violated truce

Hamas in a statement issued Friday afternoon local time said Israel "bears full responsibility" for the breakdown of the cease-fire. In all-night negotiations, the Islamist militant group said it "offered to exchange prisoners and the elderly (and) ... offered to hand over the bodies of those killed and detained as a result of the Israeli bombing."

In its statement, Hamas said it had "also offered to hand over the bodies of the Bibas family and release their father, so that he could [participate] in their burial ceremonies," in addition to handing over two other Israeli captives. It said Israel had "refused to deal with all these offers."

Hamas also said the Biden administration bears "full responsibility for the continuation of Zionist war crimes in the Gaza Strip, after its absolute support for it," and after what it said was Blinken's "green light" for Israel to resume the war.

https://www.npr.org/2023/12/01/1216333362/israel-hamas-ceasefire-combat-gaza-hostages

[ColinC]

93. Al Jazeera is funded in part by the Qatari government but is a largely independent news organization.

Calling them state media because they get funding from Qatar is like calling NPR state media because they get funding from the US, no?

[lapucelle]

95. Al Jazeera is Qatari state media and an unreliable narrator.

Al Jazeera reminds me of RT circa 2015-2016 which was frequently cited by third party shills because it was the loudest "not-overtly-right-wing" outlet that confirmed anti-Democratic Party biases.





https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/al-jazeera/

[EX500rider]

137. "I think the UN is less partial than the United States" That's funny!

Since the UNHRC's creation in 2006, it has resolved almost as many resolutions condemning Israel alone than on issues for the rest of the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed by the UNHRC

I am sure Israel is a bigger human right violator the N Korea, Iran, China, Russia, Cuba, Venz. etc...said no one ever.

[ColinC]

138. Thanks!!

[ColinC]

139. Also do you have a link to the study or a article you are referencing?

Interested in reading more about it.

[EX500rider]

146. here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel

[The Magistrate]

151. Now That No. 61 You Posted Above, Sir, That Is Some Serious Bullshit

I'm impressed, I really am: So much wrong packed into so few words....

[canuckledragger]

83. That's what their genocide enablers claim at least.

[Happy Hoosier]

46. So, let me get this straight...

you're arguing that it's okay for Hamas to NOT partiocipate in ceasefire negotiations because Israel broke a ceasefire agreement, but the fact that Hamas committed the Oct 7 atrocities is what? Irrelevant?

So what's your plan? How does the fighting stop is Hamas will not participate in the proposed negotiations?

[ColinC]

52. Perhaps you can't blame somebody who doesn't want to negotiate with people who have proven not to be reliable

Or negotiate in bad faith -if, in fact, they have not negotiated in good faith.

[Happy Hoosier]

70. Such as Hamas?

Okay, at least we know where you stand.

[ColinC]

72. I stand against Netanyahu AND Hamas. You should stand against them too.

[lapucelle]

58. Hamas broke the ceasefire.

According to OCHA, hostilities resumed on December 1.

Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel | Flash Update #56
01 Dec 2023

On 1 December, at about 7:00, hostilities resumed following a humanitarian pause that started on 24 November.

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-56

-----------------------------------------------------

How the Gaza ceasefire collapsed

According to the ceasefire agreement, Hamas committed to releasing all the women and children it was holding hostage in exchange for a pause in fighting for up to nine days. More than 80 women and children were released over the last week as part of this process.

In the hours leading to the end of the pause, Hamas did not send a list of hostages it would release, the three Israeli officials said. Instead, Hamas sent messages through Qatari and Egyptian mediators proposing to start a discussion on what concessions Israel would be willing to give in return for the release of elderly men, the officials added.

Mossad chief David Barnea, the lead negotiator on the Israeli side, sent a message to Hamas through the mediators on Thursday night that stressed Israel was "not playing games" and that if the women were not released, the fighting would resume, a senior Israeli official said. Not long after that Hamas launched a rocket from Gaza for the first time since the pause started. An hour later the ceasefire completely broke down.

The U.S. has also publicly blamed Hamas for the collapse of the ceasefire.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/01/gaza-ceasefire-collapse-israel-hostages

-----------------------------------------------

Blinken Blames Hamas for Breaking Truce With Israel

Secretary of State Antony J. Blinken blamed Hamas for the broken truce on Friday and said that he was already seeing signs that Israel had taken new steps to protect civilians as it resumed its military campaign.

Speaking just before his departure from Dubai at the end of a two-day Middle East visit, Mr. Blinken said it was “important to understand why the pause came to an end: It came to an end because of Hamas. Hamas reneged on commitments it made.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/blinken-hamas-israel-truce.html

[BrianTheEVGuy]

30. This is different

When Hamas does it, it’s okay. When Hamas kills kids in schools, it’s okay. When Hamas says its goal is total eradication of all civilians on the other side, that’s no big deal.

Of course, if Israel did anything even a tenth as bad, rioters would be storming synagogues and smashing the windows while blocking Jews from entering their college classes and public spaces, so…

[canuckledragger]

35. the far right israli government claims a lot of things that aren't so

So they can justify murdering innocent civilians.

[BrianTheEVGuy]

41. The far right Hamas murderers deserve no quarter. NT

[canuckledragger]

43. Neither does the genocidal far right Isreali government.

no matter how much lies and propaganda they push about their neighbours.

[AZLD4Candidate]

86. Yep. . .Hamas is innocent and pure. Israel is evil. If they didn't exist, there'd be no problems.

We've heard this for centuries of western civilization about the population that lives in Israel.

Everything is OUR fault. Black Death, Great Depression, Germany losing WW1. When our blood is shed, everyone yawns or makes reasons to mitigate it.

[AloeVera]

12. Well, this is just a TOTAL shock.

Who could have predicted THIS??

Netanyahu has practically performed cartwheels on one hand while standing on his head, in his efforts to sabotage a ceasefire while inflaming the entire region.

I thought the piece de resistance was killing off the "moderate" Hamas leader, leaving hardliner Sinwar in charge, but no, then Netty had to add new conditions AFTER Hamas had already accepted the framework.. then the massacre at the school...

Mission accomplished.

This guy and his supporters want the opposite of peace. Not just Gaza either.

[Beastly Boy]

29. How dare Israel fight back!

So what exactly changed since the "moderate" (and I appreciate the sarcasm) Haniyeh was taken out?

Let's see: prior to the assassination, Hamas wasn't looking forward to to taking part in the cease fire negotiations. Today they they are not looking forward to taking part in the cease fire negotiations.

A HUGE step backwards. All because the arguably most notorious terrorist in the world was assassinated.

Israel's fault, naturally.

[AloeVera]

47. Yes. Yes it is.

Netanyahu sabotaged any ceasefire deal.

[Beastly Boy]

51. If you missed the snark, which I doubt, I was referring to the passage immediately preceding it.

"Let's see: prior to the assassination, Hamas wasn't looking forward to to taking part in the cease fire negotiations. Today they they are not looking forward to taking part in the cease fire negotiations.

A HUGE step backwards. All because the arguably most notorious terrorist in the world was assassinated".

That is is what I facetiously referred to as being Israel's fault, naturally. And I am not at all surprised that you claimed it was with a sraight face. Netanyahu is merely a proverbial straw, completely out of context, to grab onto in the absence of any plausible excuses for your distasteful statement.

[AloeVera]

54. I was having fun with you.

You kind of walked into it.

As well as stumbling onto the truth. Bravo!

[Beastly Boy]

71. You have a rather strange and quite self-deprecating notion of what fun is.

I can appreciate that, and believe me, I often get quite a chuckle reading your posts. Just take it easy with it, some people with a lesser sense of humor may think you are being purposely disrespectful of yourself.

[AloeVera]

76. Oh ok.

Thank you for the advice.

[JohnSJ]

37. Ismail Haniyeh was no moderate

The International Criminal Court’s prosecutor sought an arrest warrant for Haniyeh in May, for charges of war crimes and crimes against humanity including murder, rape, torture and taking hostages, during and since the Oct. 7 attack on Israel

and while Warrants for Netanyahu and Defense were also sought, trying to portray Haniyeh as a moderate is obscene

[AloeVera]

49. I agree. That'w why the air quotes.

In no way was he moderate, with the ONE exception that he wanted a ceasefire and was willing to bend, and Sinwar wasn't and isn't. As we see now. Though mind you, Netanyahu served Sinwar the "no" on a silver platter. Essentially making it impossible for him to get to yes - even if he wanted to.

[AloeVera]

50. Oh and I just saw your "obscene" comment.

You should learn to appreciate subtle sarcasm.

[JohnSJ]

63. That is what the sarcasm tag is for. Sorry that I am so dense and cannot

read minds

Quotes can mean many things, including to emphasize something, or strengthen an argument

[AloeVera]

66. All right. Point taken.

You are not dense and I am not obscene.

[JohnSJ]

67. I was referring to the comment as obscene. I would never call a fellow DUer as

obscene, and I apologize that I didn’t make that clear.

Sorry

[AloeVera]

75. I really appreciate that.

No need to apologize but appreciated. Civility goes a long way towards understanding! I have to remember that...

Thank you!

[AloeVera]

79. I apologize too.

I can get snarky and holier-than-thou sometimes and it's ok to call me out. We are all here to learn from one another. Keeping emotions under control is not always easy though.

You put a smile on my face and with that I'm off to get some rest.

[iemanja]

55. FFS

How much does this have to do with the elevation of Sinwar, I wonder.

[AloeVera]

109. Don't wonder.

It is clear.

Haniyeh wanted a ceasefire, and worked towards it, Sinwar didn't. With Haniyeh dead, so are the hopes for a ceasefire.

Just when it was so close. Maybe too close if you didn't want one.

[moniss]

57. Any negotiations are nothing but PR

as long as both sides keep moving the goal posts. Typically what you end up with is both sides trying to get in as much weasel room for themselves as possible and then failing to live up to most of it anyway by declaring "violations" back and forth until there is little left of any "agreements" made in this region.

[Oopsie Daisy]

59. Naturally. They don't want peace.

[AloeVera]

65. Kind of hard to trust the people who killed your last chief negotiator

Just after he agreed to the ceasefire framework pushed by the US. and crucial to Democrats' victory in November.

I mean, what else does Israel want? Whatever it is - and I have a few ideas - it's definitely not peace, nor a Harris Presidency.

[lapucelle]

100. Poor Hamas! The terrorist in charge of "negotiating" is dead, and his replacement is scared

to come out of the tunnels where he's hiding.

What's a terrorist leader supposed to do? Risk the "martyrdom" he imposes on civilians? Don't be silly Sinwar is too *important* for that.

[AloeVera]

103. Joke all you want. Dismiss the blatant, successful sabotage.

It's only Palestinian lives on the line.

Hilarious.

[lapucelle]

105. Eliminating the terrorist leaders responsible for October 7

is not *sabotage*.


Here's what the *too important to risk the martyrdom he imposes on others* terrorist and coward Sinwar has to say about "Palestinian lives on the line". From a New Yorker magazine profile on Yahya Sinwar, leader of the military and political wing of Hamas.

In 1996, after a brief career in private practice, [Yuval Bitton] accepted an offer to work at the dental clinics of two prisons in the Negev. He found himself treating members of Hamas, Fatah, and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, who had been imprisoned for various terror-related crimes. Sinwar was among them.

In the years to come, Bitton spent hundreds of hours talking with Sinwar, who seemed to have little interest in concealing his past or his intentions for the future.

When Dr. Bitton asked him whether achieving his goals was worth the lives of many innocent people, Israelis and Palestinians, Sinwar replied, “We are ready to sacrifice twenty thousand, thirty thousand, a hundred thousand.”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/08/12/yahya-sinwar-profile-hamas-gaza-war-israel

=======================================================

Hamas’s Sinwar said to laud high civilian death toll in Gaza as ‘necessary sacrifice’

Wall Street Journal report details messages to interlocutors in which Gazan terror chief exalts Palestinian deaths as helping increase pressure on Israel

Hamas chief Yahya Sinwar has insisted that civilian bloodshed in Gaza is a necessary sacrifice that will lead to the liberation of Palestine, according to a report published late Monday, bolstering accusations that the terror group has intentionally put its people in harm’s way over the last eight months of devastating war in Gaza.

In dozens of messages sent over several months and acquired by The Wall Street Journal, Sinwar communicated to Hamas compatriots and mediating parties alike that he had no interest in pursuing a ceasefire with Israel, as he believed that the growing civilian death toll would serve to benefit Hamas more than a cessation of fighting would.

snip------------------------------

One message said to have been sent by Sinwar to the Hamas leadership in Doha compared the civilian losses in Gaza to those seen in the Algerian War of Independence, saying simply that “these are necessary sacrifices.” In the messages sent by Sinwar throughout the war, according to the report, he railed against the possibility of halting fighting as part of a ceasefire agreement, counseling that more would be accomplished by continuing to allow Gaza to be bombarded.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamass-sinwar-said-to-laud-high-civilian-death-toll-in-gaza-as-necessary-sacrifice/

[AloeVera]

107. Thank you for making my point.

As I've said, Sinwar is the hardliner. Did not want a ceasefire. But - while Haniyeh was alive - Sinwar's views did not prevail. Netanyahu knew all this.

The ceasefire was SO close, the framework accepted, at least by Hamas. Just waiting on Israel. Israel's answer was new conditions on their own framework and the assassination. There is no way to spin these actions except deliberate sabotage.

Are you not able to put ANY blame on Israel, or EVER hold it to account for clearly wanting to continue this terrorism and slaughter?

What will it take, I often wonder, when will it be enough? There is no getting rid of Hamas without addressing the root causes that created Hamas.

[lapucelle]

110. So your point is that terrorist Haniyah was superior to terrorist Sinwar

because terrorist Haniyah was comfortable lying at the negotiating table and messaging a sanitized version of the terrorist point of view while Sinwar is a coward afraid to be seen in public and much too comfortable articulating the truth about Hamas using civilians as cannon fodder to advance its mission of destroying Israel and installing extremist right wing theocratic authoritarian rule in the region?

Sorry, but there there is no such thing as a *reasonable* authoritarian theocratic terrorist leader.

Terrorist Haniyah insured that no progress was made between his reneging on the negotiated ceasefire terms in late November 2023 until his elimination in July 2024.

"But, but, but, this architect of mass murder was just about to negotiate a ceasefire any minute now!" simply is not going to work.

[AloeVera]

111. I do not care to argue about the comparative evil of 2 men.

I only care about what happens to the starving and hurting Palestinian people. They had a chance at reprieve and now they don't, due to the actions of a third evil man.

[lapucelle]

112. It was you who introduced the topic of the comparative evil of dead terrorist Haniyah

and terrified terrorist Sinwar.

Anyone suffering under the illusion that the coiffed and manicured billionaire terrorist murderer Haniyah was anything other than a scourge on the people of Gaza should simply look at his obstructionism at the ceasefire talks in the eight months that preceded his demise.

"Oh no! They've eliminated the *moderate*, nicely dressed murderous theocratic terrorist! Now they'll never be peace and freedom in Gaza!" just doesn't track.

[AloeVera]

115. Again, I only care about the impact on the Palestinian people.

Obstruction?

I don't recall Hamas assassinating the top Israeli negotiator or stating they will continue fighting even after any ceasefire until all Israeli leaders and IDF soldiers are dead.

Where is the outrage at how Netanyahu has managed to stall, obstruct, sabotage the negotiations? If not for the sake of the Palestinian people, then for the sake of the hostages?

[lapucelle]

116. Hamas has made it abundantly clear that it doesn't care about the impact of the war on Gazans.

G7 Leaders’ Statement on Gaza

June 03, 2024

We, the Leaders of the Group of Seven (G7), fully endorse and will stand behind the comprehensive deal outlined by President Biden that would lead to an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, the release of all hostages, a significant and sustained increase in humanitarian assistance for distribution throughout Gaza, and an enduring end to the crisis, with Israel’s security interests and Gazan civilian safety assured. We reaffirm our support for a credible pathway towards peace leading to a two State solution.

We call on Hamas to accept this deal, that Israel is ready to move forward with, and we urge countries with influence over Hamas to help ensure that it does so.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2024/06/03/g7-leaders-statement-on-gaza/

=====================================

?si=o1WHW_vee5uJjBsT

[AloeVera]

119. Hate to break it to you, but Hamas did accept it.

It was waiting on Israel to also accept. Instead, Israel added two new conditions (that it knew Hamas would not favour). It also assassinated Haniyeh.

Even now, Hamas wants to move forward with Biden's framework. Guess who does not?

When will you ever admit Israel to be at fault? What would it take, a nuclear bomb? Even then?

[lapucelle]

125. What are you talking about?

Israeli official says Hamas changed, 'rejected' latest cease-fire deal

U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu "reaffirmed his commitment" to the truce proposal when they met Monday night in Jerusalem, but that Hamas leadership in Gaza had yet to approve it.

"That's what counts, and that's what we don't have yet," Blinken said early Tuesday.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/israel-hamas/2024/06/11/israeli-war-updates-blinken-hostages-gaza/74055272007/

-------------------------------------------

US says Hamas seeks changes to ceasefire plan; Hamas denies proposing new ideas

White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said many of Hamas' proposed changes were minor "and not unanticipated" while others differed more substantially from what was outlined in a U.N. Security Council resolution on Monday backing the plan put forward by U.S. President Joe Biden.

"Our aim is to bring this process to a conclusion. Our view is that the time for haggling is over," Sullivan told reporters.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-says-it-creates-broad-prospects-ceasefire-deal-gaza-2024-06-12/

---------------------------------------------

Hamas response rejects hostage-ceasefire deal offer presented by Biden — Israeli official

An Israeli official says that Jerusalem has received Hamas’s response to the hostage release and ceasefire deal offer presented by US President Joe Biden late last month, and that the reply from the terror group effectively rejects the proposal.

“This evening, Israel received, via the mediator, the Hamas response. In its response, Hamas has rejected the proposal for a hostage release that was presented by President Biden,” the Israeli official says, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The official adds that Hamas has changed the main parameters of the proposal.

The statement comes after Hamas announced that it had submitted a response to Qatari and Egyptian mediators expressing “readiness to positively” come to a deal in the ongoing war in Gaza, sparked by the terror group’s October 7 massacre in southern Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-response-rejects-hostage-ceasefire-deal-offer-presented-by-biden-official/

================================


Responding to a ceasefire proposal after weeks of stalling by saying "We will accept the peace proposal if you change this stuff" is not "accepting the ceasefire proposal."

[AloeVera]

126. You are behind the times. By two months.

I'm sure it was unintentional.

Things change. Google is your friend.

[lapucelle]

128. What are you talking about? Has the Biden administration changed its position

that the Israel-Hamas War is not genocide on Israel's part, but rather a response to Hamas's genocidal intent toward Israel?

There's nothing on Google that says the US has changed its position. Things might change, but the official US position didn't.

[lapucelle]

130. And anyone claiming "Google is your friend"

might want to include links, especially to talking points that have been belied by the facts and debunked by the Biden administration.

[lapucelle]

127. And Hamas doesn't want to move forward with "Biden's framework".

Hamas wants to move forward with the May 6 Qatari-Egypt-Hamas proposal.

Egypt changed terms of Gaza ceasefire deal presented to Hamas, surprising negotiators, sources say

Egyptian intelligence quietly changed the terms of a ceasefire proposal that Israel had already signed off on earlier this month, ultimately scuttling a deal that could have released Israeli hostages and Palestinian prisoners, and set a pathway to temporarily end the fighting in Gaza, according to three people familiar with the discussions.

The ceasefire agreement that Hamas ended up announcing on May 6 was not what the Qataris or the Americans believed had been submitted to Hamas for a potential final review, the sources said.

The changes made by Egyptian intelligence, the details of which have not been previously reported, led to a wave of anger and recrimination among officials from the US, Qatar and Israel, and left ceasefire talks at an impasse.

“We were all duped,” one of those sources told CNN.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/21/politics/sources-say-they-were-duped-by-egypt-changing-ceasefire-terms-for-hamas/index.html

============================================

Folks who get their *news* from Qatari state media Al Jazeera need to read carefully and do the homework. Al Jazeera plays its Western audience for fools.

[AloeVera]

134. Now you're 3 months behind.

I'm sure it was unintentional.

I might need this.


See post #133.

BBC article might help you to better understand. Provided you want to, of course.

Hamas has said a ceasefire plan for Gaza must be based on where talks were a month and a half ago rather than any new rounds of negotiations.

In a statement on Sunday night, the group called on mediators “to present a plan to implement what was agreed upon by the movement on July 2, 2024, based on [President Joe] Biden's vision and the UN Security Council resolution”.

On 2 July, Hamas issued its response to the outline ceasefire plan announced by Mr Biden on 30 May.

The details of Hamas’s response have not been made public but the group is understood to have dropped a demand for a full ceasefire at the outset rather than an initial six-week pause put forward by the president.

Negotiations resumed a week later, with Hamas accusing Israel of introducing new conditions.

Hamas sources told the BBC that the introduction of the new conditions - that displaced Palestinians should be screened as they return to the north of Gaza, as well as the question of control of the Philadelphi corridor that borders Egypt - have been sticking points.

It has also been widely reported in the Israeli press that these new demands were made by Israel's Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and that they have caused friction with his negotiating team.

Snip

[lapucelle]

140. August 8, 2024 BBC News: "Israel Accepts Proposal to attend 'urgent' new ceasefire talks"

Is that the BBC story from which you pulled the decontextualized excerpt? It's so hard to tell without either headline or link.

Or was it the story about the terrorists secret July 2 *response* (counterproposal) to Biden's ceasefire plan?

Hamas says ceasefire must be based on group’s July response

In a statement on Sunday night, the group called on mediators “to present a plan to implement what was agreed upon by the movement on July 2, 2024, based on [President Joe] Biden's vision and the UN Security Council resolution”.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gex1rl6q5o

--------------------------------------------------

What do you suppose

based on [President Joe] Biden's vision

is terrorist-speak for? If only the terrorists had made their July 2 counterproposal public, we'd have a better point from which to assess the terrorists' demands.

-----------------------------------------------

Do you think that the terrorists wish that they had accepted the actual Biden proposal back in June, rather than hold out for their own counterproposal based on their wishlist and a terrorist's characterization of the "Biden vision"?

The coiffed and manicured billionaire terrorist Haniyah was still living in June. The brutishly cruel and cowardly strategist of the October 7 masacre, Sinwar, is afraid to appear in public or even communicate using anything other than messenger lest he risk the martyrdom that he so piteously imposes on innocent civilians.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel accepts proposal to attend ‘urgent’ new ceasefire talks

Israel has agreed to send negotiators to a new round of talks over a ceasefire and hostage release deal, after a diplomatic push from the United States, Egypt and Qatar.

The three nations released a joint statement on Thursday pushing for the talks to take place between Israel and Hamas on 15 August in Doha or Cairo. Hamas is yet to respond.

The statement said a "framework agreement" was ready and that it had "only the details of implementation left to conclude”.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c07e99ver7ro

[lapucelle]

117. And the analogy is offensive.

Hamas is a terrorist organization. It's leaders are terrorists, and the people who take orders to kill from terrorist leaders are terrorists as well.

And yes, Hamas is quite clear about its genocidal intent. They have stated that the terrorist attacks will continue until Israel is destroyed.

Hamas official threatens to repeat October 7 attacks until Israel is annihilated

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/global-affairs/hamas-official-threatens-to-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/video/2dc98f7de077cc57d0f20cddbbfb3f7a

==========================

?si=hzPqzebldKVS-xq_

[AloeVera]

121. Is there a difference between a terrorist org and a terrorist state?

In fact, there is. A terrorist state is much more dangerous and more likely to achieve its goals.

[lapucelle]

123. What are you even talking about at this point?

Hamas is a terrorist organization whose mission is to destroy Israel, kill every Jew, and impose theocratic authoritarian rule in the region. Hamas is almost as cruel to Palestinians who do not toe the line as they are to Jews. They are a scourge on Gaza. Eliminating Hamas is a worthy goal.

Israel is a democracy and our ally. Twenty percent of its population consists of Arab/Palestinian Israeli citizens. That population is represented in both the Knesset and on the Supreme Court. There are synagogues, churches, and mosques where people are free to worship. Choosing not to worship or openly embracing an LGBTQ identity does not trigger an automatic death sentence. Women have an equal voice in government and have served at the highest levels.

Hamas started a war with Israel. Absent October 7, we would not be where we are now. No country is perfect, and many countries (including ours) have gone through difficult times due to failed leadership, but for anyone to imply that either the US or Israel is a "terrorist state" is frankly disgusting.

[lapucelle]

118. John Kirby understands that Hamas wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth.

Link to tweet

[AloeVera]

120. Even John Kirby can't see into the future.

If he could see 9 months down the road, he couldn't have said that with a straight face.

[lapucelle]

124. What John Kirby said was true then and is true now, and the US Department of State has reiterated its position

every and anytime the question is asked at a press briefing, most recently in mid-May.

White House sees no genocide in Gaza, condemns aid convoy attacks
May 13, 202410:31 PM EDT

U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan said on Monday that President Joe Biden's administration does not view the killings of Palestinians in Gaza by Israel in its war with Hamas as genocide.

Sullivan said the United States wants to see Hamas defeated. He also said that Palestinians caught in the middle of the war were in "hell" and that a major military operation by Israel in Rafah would be a mistake.
"We do not believe what is happening in Gaza is a genocide. We have been firmly on record rejecting that proposition," Sullivan told reporters at the White House.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/white-house-we-do-not-believe-genocide-is-occurring-gaza-2024-05-13/

To suggest that President Biden would keep silent regarding genocide is frankly disgusting.

[keithbvadu2]

80. They have already said their goal is to commit more terrorism and kill more Jews.

They have supporters in Trump's republicans.

[betsuni]

85. K&R

[AZLD4Candidate]

87. Of course, this is Israel's fault 100%.

Everything is Israel's fault.

[lapucelle]

99. Perhaps Hamas is not participating because terrorist Haniyah is dead and terrorist Sinwar is hiding.

Sinwar is a "Martyrdom for thee, but not for me" kinda terrorist.

[Mike Nelson]

129. Interest on a ceasefire...

... from the attack by Hamas on Israeli civilians, and considering the Israel/Palestine history, here is how I see an interest in a ceasefire:

INTEREST IN A CEASEFIRE:
Hamas... NO
Israel... NO
USA... YES

(Just looking at actions and behavior)

[kansasobama]

131. Boty Netanyahu and Hamas wants no peace

Our Gaza protesters should be protesting Hamas instead of Biden.

[JustAnotherGen]

132. At this point

Let's bypass Israel - do a prisoner swap -

And get our Americans out of there.

[AloeVera]

133. This O/P omits the important part.

To the O/P: Are you aware that you snipped a pretty important piece of the article and further did not indicate the snip?

In light of this, and out of concern and responsibility towards our people and their interests, the movement calls on the mediators to submit a plan to implement what they presented to the movement and approved on July 2, based on Biden's vision and [UN] Security Council resolution," Hamas said in its statement.

The group said additional rounds of negotiations or discussing new proposals "provide cover for the occupation's aggression."

What does this mean exactly?

Simply put, characterization of this latest development as "rejection of ceasefire talks" is spin by the Israeli side.

In reality, Hamas wants the Biden plan that they already approved, to be enforced. The more accurate headline should be "Hamas rejects Israel's attempts to change or water down the Biden plan and delay the ceasefire Hamas has agreed to".

Hamas has asked mediators to present a plan based upon previous truce talks instead of attempting to find a new Gaza ceasefire deal, days ahead of talks proposed by the United States, Egypt and Qatar.

In a statement on its official Telegram channel, the group said that it wants a plan “based on [US President Joe] Biden’s May 31 ceasefire proposal, the framework laid out by mediators Qatar and Egypt on May 6, and UN Security Council Resolution 2735“.

The May 6 proposal, which Hamas previously agreed to and Israel rejected, also ensures the release of Israeli captives in Gaza as well as an unspecified number of Palestinians held in Israeli jails.

Sunday’s Hamas statement added that “the mediators should enforce this [May 6 proposal] on the occupation [Israel] instead of pursuing further rounds of negotiations or new proposals that would provide cover for the occupation’s aggression and grant it more time to continue its genocide against our people”.

Reporting from Amman, Jordan, Al Jazeera’s Hamdah Salhut said that Israeli media outlets are interpreting the Hamas statement as a rejection of the ceasefire talks altogether.

“But their [Hamas] statement did not say that. They’re merely calling on mediators to put the original proposal that they had agreed to, on the table,” she said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/11/hamas-urges-return-to-existing-gaza-ceasefire-proposal

The BBC also covered this more accurately. Two good articles for those who care to read beyond spinned-out headlines.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4gex1rl6q5o

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cllyz4y6979o

[lapucelle]

141. The terrorists want their secret counterpropsal to be the starting point of negotiations?

What do you suppose is on the Hamas wishlist that they were unwilling to make public? What does "based on Biden's vision" actually mean in terrorist-speak?

The terrorists should have accepted the Biden proposal in June, rather than hold out and finally present their wish list counterproposal in July.

Hamas needs to admit the plain truth. The coiffed and manicured billionaire terrorist who enjoyed appearing in public as if he were some kind of statesman rather than terrorist scum is no longer with us. No more grandstanding on the world stage for Haniyah.

The remaining terrorist leader Sinwar is scared to come out from below ground and will never meet with anyone unless they are willing to join him in his hidey-hole in the tunnels beneath Gaza.

Posturing about secret counter-proposals and wish lists ostensibly based on "Biden's vision" fools no one. Hamas is scared and leaderless. In the end, Qatar, Egypt, Israel, and the US will hammer out a deal without terrorist participation. And Hamas will do what terrorists always do: say "no" to peace.

[AloeVera]

143. If you could just put aside your interest in Haniyeh's dress and grooming habits for a moment, and listen.

It's people's lives on the line - Palestinian and Israeli and let's not forget Lebanese and Iranian and..

The bad faith actor must be called out, reigned in, if you truly want peace.

If you truly want peace, you do not assassinate the lead negotiator who actually wants peace, knowing his successor may not and just at the time that negotiations are at the furthest, most hopeful they've ever been.

If you truly want peace, you do not carry out the assassination in the one place where that violation would likely lead to a regional war.

If you truly want peace, you do not contradict Biden's proposal within an hour of his announcement of YOUR OWN PLAN and several days and weeks after.

If you truly want peace, you do not insist that there can be no peace until your enemy is absolutely destroyed, not just militarily but operationally, an even Gaza itself must no longer be a "threat".

If you truly want peace, you do not carry out an attack on a school causing about a hundred deaths and many more horrific injuries two days after you've "accepted" to come back to the table.

If you truly want peace, you do not allow your soldiers to carry out horrific physical, mental and sexual abuses against Palestinans in your prisons.

If you truly want peace, you do not allow your ultra-religious or otherwise ultra-criminal settlers to continue their rampage of killing, burning and destruction across the West Bank.

If you truly want peace, you do not terrorize, hound from place to place, deprive of food and water, and continue to drop bombs on innocent civilians.

I could go on but if this isn't enough to show bad faith nothing will be.

Bottom line: Netanyahu does not want to end the war. Why do you continue to pretend it's all Hamas' fault?

Now I'm done with this thread, and probably a couple of people in it. Hope one day you will come over to the light.

[lapucelle]

144. Haniyah was an interesting study in billionaire terrorists,

preening and posturing, his cared-for complexion polished and pink, his well-fed belly obscured by the impeccable tailoring of his expensive Western clothing. He thought he presented as a figure of respect rather than the object of contempt that the world knew him as.

As for the rest, terrorists have once again refused to engage in the peace process. There is nothing surprising in this, and no amount of spin will elevate terrorist butchers from that place in the gutter that they make their own.

Sorry, but the "evil Israel standing in the way of autocratic theocracy" and "but Hamas says..." narratives do not work on me. I live in NY, and we've had a belly full of the pro-Hamas miscreants, their bizarro pro-terrorist screeds, and the concomitant anti-Semitism that follows in their wake.

Hamas has no place in Gaza, and the sooner they accept their demotion from authoritarian tyrants to international pariahs, the better off the people of Gaza, and the world at large, will be.

All Hamas has ever needed to do is return the hostages and arrange for their own safe passage to whatever hell-hole or terrorist- adjacent absolute monarchy would have them.

And now, despite the death and hardship that they have inflicted on Gaza, Hamas will have nothing.

[lapucelle]

145. Folks plaintively whining on *social media* about the Hamas point of view

need to sit down, shut up, and take some time off for self reflection.

[AloeVera]

150. Wtf are you talking about?

Spit it out.

Casting aspersions of this nature in a thread response to me is beyond the pale.

I would delete this if I were you.

[lapucelle]

153. What on earth are you talking about?

That wasn't a direct reply to you.






It was a further point about the pro-Hamas marchers in NY referenced in the post that I responded to.

What made you think it was about you?

[AloeVera]

156. Ah, the art of plausible denial.

I'd admire that under other circumstances.

[The Magistrate]

154. Touched A Nerve, Did She?

Interesting how your tactic in response is an attempt to bait her into a statement that would violate the mores of the place, and likely draw a jury's ire.

Same tune, different key....

[AloeVera]

155. Ah, you gave away the plot there.

Of course it was personal as you yourself can see.

[The Magistrate]

157. It Was An Observation On the Content Of Your Posts, Sir

It did not presume you were aware of what you are doing, that you were a witting tool. Such conclusions, yay or nay, were left for you to draw from your own reflections on the matter, once it has been brought to your attention by a friend....





"Better an honest rogue than a canting cleric."

[AloeVera]

158. Yeah, sure.

We all know that's not it.

Done with that poster.

[Beastly Boy]

159. Speaking of losing an argument gracelessly.

Last edited Wed Aug 14, 2024, 11:06 AM - Edit history (1)

But I digress. With a certain degree of satisfaction, I must admit.

[The Magistrate]

160. You're Getting Pretty Deep Into 'Hit Hog Hollers' Territory, Sir

A good part of the art is knowing when to stop....


"With me, fishing has always been an excuse to drink in the morning."

[AloeVera]

163. I am enjoying my chamomile tea, not crying into it.

Highly recommended.

I will go on fighting defenders of those who kill newborn babies without a second thought.

You will go on with whatever it is that you do.

Peace.

[The Magistrate]

164. Your Nobility Moves Me To Such a Degree That ... Words Fail Me...

Two-fingered typist, or eight?

Those calloused tips and broken nails are pure Hell.

[AloeVera]

165. Is something bothering you?

You're not usually this mean.

Wish you well.

[The Magistrate]

166. 'The Bleatin' O' the Kid Incites The Tyger'

This really is a helluva thing to type out, especially whilst sipping herb tea: I don't think I could do it with a straight face:

"I will go on fighting defenders of those who kill newborn babies without a second thought. "

It's not clear, by the way, whether the second thought is not taken by these persons eager for the slaughter of newborns, or by yourself concerning your own endeavors. English is a harsh mistress, and rather sloppy on the grammar side....

[lapucelle]

161. It's been edited.

Original:

Edited

I guess a "thread response" is when someone thinks a "direct reply" was to them, but it actually wasn't.

[The Magistrate]

162. Ah, Well: As My Daughter Used to Say 'It's All Fun Till Someone Pokes Their Eye Out --- Then It's Hilarious!

I wonder if he knows either origin for the phrase 'beyond the pale'....

[EX500rider]

147. "If you truly want peace, you do not insist that there can be no peace until your enemy is absolutely destroyed"

Actually that IS a way to peace, see Japan & Germany WWII

Hamas can surrender or be destroyed, Israel see's no other way after 10/7

[lapucelle]

142. Unfortunately, there are stalwart defenders of the Hamas point of view

extant all over *social media*.

They are marching in NY and threatening to attempt to create chaos at our convention.

That there are voices committed to normalizing the agenda of avowed terrorists and busy defending the terrorist point of view when it comes to the fate of the innocent people of Gaza is frankly disgusting.

[kansasobama]

152. Palestinians have a Hamas problem

Hamas is a rudderless organization with no skills and it does not give a shit about Gazans. Netanyahu is a diabolic figure who needs a war for his survival. I don't see any out here.

All Gaza protesters do not know what they are protesting. They need to be directing anger against both Hamas and Netanyahu.