Israeli strikes kill 492 in heaviest daily toll in Lebanon since 1975-90 civil war

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: The Guardian

At least 492 people have been killed and 1,645 injured, Lebanon’s health ministry has said, after a wave of Israeli airstrikes on alleged Hezbollah targets that left the country with its highest daily death toll since the end of the 1975-90 civil war.

Tens of thousands of people fled from south Lebanese towns and villages along the main road towards the capital, Beirut, in Israel’s most intense barrage in nearly a year of cross-border clashes, as sirens were also heard in the northern Israeli city of Haifa. The Lebanese health ministry said 35 children and 58 women were among those killed.
...
The IDF said it had hit more than 1,300 Hezbollah targets in the previous 24 hours, in its biggest attack on the militant group since the Gaza war began last October, when Hezbollah began strikes in Israel in support of Hamas. Israel also carried out airstrikes in the Beqaa valley and its second airstrike on Beirut in a week, with what it said was a “limited” airstrike in the southern suburb of Dahieh. Israeli media reported that the target of the strike was Ali Karaki, Hezbollah’s number three military commander, although the group said he was in a safe location and unharmed by the attack.

About 35 rockets were meanwhile fired from Lebanon towards the Safed area of Israel, the Israel Defense Forces said, with some coming down in open areas close to the community of Ami’ad.

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/23/israel-lebanon-strikes-evacuation-hezbollah

[brush]

1. Ok, the expanded war has begun. The warmongers must be happy.

Shoot 'um up, another 75 years of war coming up.

[Happy Hoosier]

69. Ya know Hezbollah was launching rockets into Israel almost daily, right?

The idea that Israel striking back is an "expansion" is, frankly, revealing.... Apparently the Jews are just supposed to take it?

[brush]

70. 40,000 dead in Gaza, 1200 in Israel. There's a term for that.

Overkill.

[Happy Hoosier]

71. So you think every fight should have even casualties?

What's your opinion of US versus Japanese and German civilian casualties in WWII?

[brush]

72. When one gets to that obvious overkill ratio, it's getting into war crime territory.

Of course you don't want to admit it's overkill, but come on, 40,000 to 1200.

Netanyahu and Likud should be pulled back by the nation.

Now they've expanded the war and who knows if it will stop?

Will there be another 75 years of war?

[Happy Hoosier]

73. Hard disagree.

And I call BS on THEM "expanding" the war. Hezbollah was already REGULARLY attacking them. It's interesting that your ire is reserved for Israel and not Hezbollah.

So I'll ask again.... were the Jews just supposed to accept the daily attacks and NOT respond?

[brush]

74. You disagree that 40,000 v 1200 is overkill? Or that the war has been expanded?

We think differently. IMO Israel needs to pull those aggressive warmongers back. They've gone way past the naiton's right to protect itself. What is that ratio...about 1 Israeli life is worth 33 Palestinians? Come on, you have to know in your heart that's horrid overkill.

What's your opinion on if exploding pagers was an act of terror? Leon Paneta, former CIA chief and Sec'y of Defense called it just that yesterday on TV.

[Happy Hoosier]

75. You keep refusing to address my questions. I'll address yours, like an honest interlocutor.

1) NO. It's not about worth. In any conflict, the goal is to acheive your objectives with minimal friendly casualties. You can argue about whether or not due diligence is paid to minimizing civilian casualties (and I'd agree that Israel has not done so to the extent it should), but the casualty ratio is completely irrelevent.

2) I disagree with Director Panetta. I think terrorists target civilians. That was not the cas4e here. yes, there were collateral casualties. That's regrettable, and it's why war suck.

So, your turn:

Do you think the US committed war crimes in WWII with its strategic bombing campaign? If so, what was the alternative?

Does Hezbollah carry any responsibility for its refusal to stop daily rocket attacks into Israel? It's interesting to me that you reserve the label of "warmonger" for the Israelis, and I have YET to hear you call Hezbollah that. Care to amend that error?

[brush]

76. You are actually comparing WWll battles between independent, sorverign nations...

to a fenced-in/cloistered enclav with no means of escaped for the 2.3 million people? You have to be kidding, that's worse than shooting apples in a barrel...and the killing continues.

As for warmongers, I include bibi/likud, hamas, and hezbollah and their continued rocket attacks.

As for Lebannon the nation, we have to see how it plays out as hezbollah has much influence there.

One other thing, Gaza has been destroyed. There's nothing left. Way past time to pull the IDF back, a cease-fire, release of hostages, substantive two-state talks of principals/honest brokers, Netanyahu/Likud and Hamas bypassed if that can be worked (multi-national force) as it's obvious neither is willing to negotiate seriously as the past has shown when agreements get near, there's always another inttiation of hostile acts from one side or the other.

[Happy Hoosier]

77. Okay, we're talking past each other now.

I personally think the only way this stops is if an international force steps in.... but nobody wants to put their blood and treasure on the line in that mess.

At least I heard you include Hamas and Hezbollah in that, so I'm glad we can conclude on that point of agreement.

[brush]

78. That's it? I've always said that Hamas, Netanyahu/Likud and Hezbollah...

Last edited Tue Sep 24, 2024, 05:01 PM - Edit history (1)

are war mongers. Your lack of comment on Gazans penned in in that enclave with no escape and still being bombed to smithereens is telling. No way that's comparable to WWll battles between sovereign nation/states.

Now is time for you to be honest.

[Happy Hoosier]

80. This thread wasn't about Gaza....

I decided not respond to your Gaza rant because you refused to engage on my point about uneven casualties.

As you said, we think differently on this subject. I detest Netenyahu, and I believe he and IDF have engaged in some obvious war crimes, but the casualty rate isn't necessarily evidence of that.

My Mom was a 6 year old kid in Berline in 1945. Over a two week period in the Spring of 1945, 125,000 civilians were killed during the Battle of Berlin. 125,000. In 2 weeks. Berlin was basically levelled. War is a nasty business.

[brush]

88. We agree on some things, some things not. As for the thread not being about Gaza...

ridiculous. Everything in that region is about Gaza, it's the epicenter of the whole war.

40,000 v 12000...tsk, tsk, tsk...at lease I hope your refusal to comment on that isn't a justification for the IDF's slaughter of innocents told to go to no-fire, safety zones that were/are still being fired upon.

[hot2na]

79. Please stop comparing Israels actions to WW2

Its a bullshit comparison. WW2 was a global conflict in which 60 million people died.

The October Terrorist attacks were horrific and Israel has a right to defend itself. I just don’t see how continuing indiscrimate bombing with mass civilian casualties helps Israel. In my opinion it hurts Israel as more terrorists are created each day.

[Redleg]

92. This will be lost on deaf ears

I have said the same here, recently, only to be attacked for supporting Hamas and Hezbollah.

[muriel_volestrangler]

81. The 'expansion' is what happened yesterday.

From Oct 8th 2023 until Sept 22nd 2024, the deaths for this conflict were put in Lebanon at 669; the deaths in Israel at 52. On Sept 23rd, another 492 were killed in Lebanon, and 0 in Israel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Hezbollah_conflict_%282023%E2%80%93present%29

So, yes, this is an expansion of the war by the Israeli government, by any meaningful comparison. In one day, they nearly doubled the deaths from nearly a year of fighting.

[maxsolomon]

2. I heard on Democracy Now this morning that the IDF had called cell phones & land lines in the area

telling people that if there was a missile stored in their house, get out. if there was a missile hidden nearby, get out.

with that death and injury toll, it doesn't sound like that effort worked.

[AloeVera]

3. Or there could be a quite different explanation.

I seriously doubt any mother or father would remain in their house with the kids. Yet at least 60 women and children have been killed, so far.

I wonder how close to 150,000 civilians in Gaza died or were injured. We were told that Israel gave them "warning" too.

How clever of the IDF to use cell phones to give the warnings - in a country terrified of going anywhere near electronic devices!

[Beastly Boy]

6. I wonder how many women and children were prevented from leaving by the Hezbollah militants.

I would bet a seven dollar bill that their numbers are higher than 60.

[PufPuf23]

10. About a weel ago, IDF distributed leaflets in southern Lebanon telling people to evacuate

or they would be assumed Hezbollah.

Saw this on Israel Realtime but just looked and can't find now. Facebook.

The ongoing Chuck Holton video that Richard D posted in another thread minutes ago said that Israel is now pounding the border with artillery.

[Beastly Boy]

12. I believe I found the story you are referring to:

After unauthorized flyers dropped, IDF says there’s no south Lebanon evacuation order
The Israeli military clarified on Sunday that there was no evacuation recommendation given for civilians in southern Lebanon, and that flyers dropped in the southern village of Wazzani calling on residents to leave had been distributed by a brigade commander without permission.

The military said it has launched an investigation into the incident.

The flyers called on Lebanese civilians in highlighted zones close to the border to evacuate by 4 p.m. due to Hezbollah activity in the area.

The area that was highlighted has been used by Hezbollah to launch numerous attacks at northern Israel in recent months.However, according to military sources, the move was carried out by the commander of the 769th “Hiram” Regional Brigade, Col. Avi Marciano, but without receiving permission from the head of the Northern Command or other senior officers. A small drone operated by the brigade was used to drop the flyers, rather than the Israeli Air Force, a military source said.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-unauthorized-flyers-dropped-idf-says-theres-no-south-lebanon-evacuation-order/#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20military%20clarified%20on%20Sunday%20that%20there,been%20distributed%20by%20a%20brigade%20commander%20without%20permission.

It wasn't IDF, it was a rogue commander.

After responding to Post #3, I am still wondering how many women and children were prevented from leaving various locations in Lebanon by the Hezbollah militants.

[PufPuf23]

15. Thank you. Sounds like what saw on Israel Realtime.

Maybe Israel Realtime removed the story as distribution was by the rogue commander?

Watch Israel Realtime as condensed news but this is not the first time narrative has changed.

[AloeVera]

16. That's worth only an emoji...

I had to look for it as I rarely use it.

I asked you before to stop responding to my posts. I do not answer them. I have nothing to say to you.

Don't care what snarky, gaslighting or belittling comment you leave. I won't see it.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

30. You know a good way to not get people to respond to your posts?

Don’t post.

[AloeVera]

38. Thanks for your advice.

[Beastly Boy]

40. Ah, an emoji.

Not my choice for showing off my communications skills, but my grandson loves emojis, and I find them endearing.

I promised you before that I will challenge what you post as I see fit, whether you respond to it or not. And I keep my promises. In this particular case, I deemed your insinuations fit for a challenge, and you got it.

And don't spend too much time looking for an emoji when you mean to say that I make you puke. I don't alert on anyone, for any reason, even when the temptation is overwhelming. It's my freedom of speech fetish. Nor do I place anyone on ignore. I feel at ease ignoring someone after I read their posts. That way I make certain that I ignore for a good reason.

But that's just me. You do you.

[MuchBetterThanThis]

4. Netanyahu is a monster

I think he is doing all of this is because it’s an election year in the country that supports his.
He knows that as a country that our leaders hands are tied due to continued support of Israel.
Killing INNOCENT people doesn’t matter.
I hope when Kamala is the President that we let the Israeli people know that there will be conditions for continued support.
#1 will be that they get rid of Netanyahu. Period

[RockRaven]

52. So are the American politicians who have enabled and emboldened him to behave thusly.

[Beastly Boy]

5. In completely unrelated news:

According to Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, the number of Hezbollah troops is four times larger than the total number of belligerent forces, including the Lebanese Army, in the 1975-90 civil war.

[Richard D]

7. All Hezbollah has to do to end the attacks from Israel . . .

. . . is to stop shooting their missiles and rockets at Israel.

[cloudbase]

9. The simplest solutions are often the best.

[TomSlick]

19. You are correct. All that is required is for Hezbollah to abandon its only reason to exist.

The only other alternative would be for Netanyahu to abandon his desire for an unending war in order to remain in office and out of prison. Neither of these will happen so long as Iran arms Hezbollah and the US arms Israel.

Hezbollah is doing Iran's bidding. The question is whether there is any line which Netanyahu could cross that would cause the US to stop supplying weapons to Israel. I suspect there is no such line. There is no incentive for either side to deescalate.

[Richard D]

33. I'm puzzled by your answer

Do you mean to say that Israel should just lie down and take Hezbollah's attacks without doing anything to stop them? That's sure what it sounds like to me. Maybe the same thing with Hamas? The Jews should just lie back and enjoy the rape and murder and forget about the innocents who were kidnapped? Why do you blame Netanyahu and not Hezbollah or Hamas?

[MarineCombatEngineer]

36. Seems to me that a lot of that is going around.

Never HAMAs, Hizbollah or Iran's fault, just Israel.

[TomSlick]

55. Not at all.

Netanyahu and Hezbollah are both confident in the correctness of their position. Neither wants peace and both will only be satisfied by the annihilation of the other.

Iran is confident it is doing the will of Allah in supporting Hezbollah. The religious parties in Israel are equally confident they are doing the will of God. Netanyahu is doing what is necessary to stay in office. The US is doing the politically expedient thing by supporting Netanyahu.

Both sides hate their enemy more than they love their children and are prepared to accept the death of their children so long as there are children killed across the border. Both sides know they cannot win but both are prepared to continue to try until they run out of sons and daughters to send into battle. Iran will continue to arm Hezbollah, and US will continue to arm Netanyahu, so long as there are people left to pull the triggers.

All sides are getting what they want. God/Allah is in his heaven and all sides are convinced they are doing his will. God/Allah will have to decide when there have been sufficient deaths and decide the matter.

[Bettie]

67. Everyone claims that "god" is on their side

and once again, religion is the most corrosive element of human society.

How many people have to die because they don't believe in the same version of "god".

In the case of Muslims/Jews/Christians....it's the same god, with a few variations and yet, people who want to kill find justification and the cycle goes on forever as each of the groups dehumanizes the others to make killing them acceptable.

[TomSlick]

85. Being the cynic that I am, I believe that both sides use God as an excuse.

Religious zealots are all convinced that their every whim is the will of God.

[Bettie]

94. I tend to agree with that

but in their minds, there usually is a "god" and it looks and thinks the way they do.

Each of them thinks that they are a little god.

[TomSlick]

101. I believe in God, I just don't presume to understand his thinking.

I'm just not that smart. Of course, no human can be that smart.

[PufPuf23]

102. The goal of monotheism is for monsters to control common people,

always has been the truth.

[TomSlick]

103. And that's why people assume that Democrats disparage believers.

That's why when I recommend that people check-out DU, I tell warn them that there is a lot of antipathy here to religion. If they are offended by anonymous people questioning their intelligence, it's best to stay off DU.

[PufPuf23]

104. There are good reasons for separation of church and state. nt

[TomSlick]

105. Indeed. That's why this believer is a dues paying member of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

The separation of Church and State does not depend on disparaging others for their faith or lack thereof.

I do not criticize others because their faith is different than mine or they have no faith at all. Common decency demands it.

[Beastly Boy]

53. It is pretty pathetic when your only reason to exist is attack civilians across international borders.

isn't it?

[TomSlick]

60. It is. And both sides continue to do so.

Each is confident they are doing God's will. Each will continue to suffer from their arrogance until they run out of sons and daughters to sacrifice to their hatred.

[Beastly Boy]

62. Continue to exist? Or continue to have only one reason to exist?

You were pretty clear what you think Hezbollah's only reason to exist is, but what would be Israel's only reason to exist, in your opinion?

[TomSlick]

86. I hope that Israel's reason to exist is to be a functioning Democracy

advancing the interests of all its people. That reason to exist is not necessarily the same as Netanyahu's goal of staying in power, and out of prison, indefinitely.

At this point, a sufficient number of the Israeli people support a war of annihilation to give Netanyahu a free hand. So long as that is true, the war will continue.

[RubyRose]

68. It's a little more believable that God's will is along

The lines of defending your population rather than the group that believes He wants you to exterminate your neighbors.

[claudette]

48. Who shot the

first missile? Some are saying Lebanon is defending itself from the attacks by Israel. Do they have the right?

[C0RI0LANUS]

8. What chutzpah from this dibbuk Bibi with the UN General Assembly meeting in NYC.

The "Crime Minister" keeps delaying that nettlesome bribery and corruption trial by keeping Israel on constant DEFCON IV status and in a state of war. He's making a ceasefire impossible to release the hostages or find a pathway to peace with his neighbors. And all of the victim's families are going to be enemies of Israel forever, despite their religion.

When will the Israeli Labor Party ever win again?

Source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Benjamin_Netanyahu

[Richard D]

11. How DARE ISRAEL!!!

Imagine the nerve to attack a country that has lobbed over 9000 missiles and rocket bombs at it in less than a year! It's like those JEWS think that they have a right to defend themselves!!! The nerve!

[MarineCombatEngineer]

18. IKR?

According to some, Israel isn't allowed to respond to attacks on their territory, they're just supposed to sit and take it, no matter how many times rockets and missiles are fired at them and no matter how many innocent Israeli's are injured or killed.

[AZLD4Candidate]

22. Jewish blood has always been cheap and worthless in western civilization's history.

I keep track of your posts and nothing you say I disagree with.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

24. Thanks, you've been a great defender of the Jewish people and a great critic of China.

Keep up the good work.

[iemanja]

25. No, I think it's the disproportionate nature of the response that disturbs people

Last edited Mon Sep 23, 2024, 10:04 PM - Edit history (1)

That Gaza is now a rubble-filled wasteland, and that Netanyahu has sworn to turn Lebanon into the same. I believe Israel has the right to defend itself, but I also believe another leader would have not been nearly so extreme in how they chose to execute that defense.

Why must every act Israel engages in be defended? We are allowed to be critical of actions by the US--our own government--but somehow not those of a foreign nation. That strikes me as very strange.

I oppose Abu Grhaib and the Iraq War, just as I oppose the rape of boys and girls by the IDF in Gaza (and yes I equally oppose the rape of Israeli women by Hamas on Oct 7 and of hostage captives), as well as the full-scale annihilation of the territory. That doesn't mean I don't think my government has a right to defend itself against the attack on 9/11. The same goes for Israel.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/gaza-sexual-violence-men-boys-israel/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/idf-sexual-abuse-palestine-gaza-b2498888.html
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/sexual-violence-gaza/

[NickB79]

29. 9000 missiles and rockets in less than a year from Hezbollah

It's only disproportionate because Hezbollah's accuracy sucks, and Israel has a modern military with Iron Dome and fighter jets

It's not the response that's disproportionate; it's the death toll. Israel has simply invested billions to protect it's citizens, while Hamas and Hezbollah use theirs for propaganda.

It's almost like people are pissed there aren't more dead Jews by now.

[iemanja]

31. Gaza is disproporitionate

and Bibi has sworn to annihilate Lebanon. That is disproportionate. I'm not talking about a single attack.

Additionally, Hezbollah's most recent attack was in response to the pager and cell phone ops, which killed thousands. Did Israel think that they wouldn't respond? One side can always find justification for attacking the other. The result is endless war, which is precisely what Netanyahu and his cheerleaders want.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

32. Ummm, there were no cell phone attacks,

there were pager and 2 way radio attacks, and just where are you getting this info that there were thousands killed in these pager and 2 way radio attacks?
I've searched Google far and wide and I can't find any links to thousands killed by these attacks.
Maybe you can provide a link to your claim?
I'll wait............

[iemanja]

39. My mistake

2 thousand injured. I wrote hastily. It's late for me. You are correct on all counts.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

42. No problem, we've all done that a time or 2.

[Richard D]

35. I've heard people use the disproportionate thing often . . .

. . . yet no one says what a proportionate response would have been? I'm really curious what you mean by that.

[iemanja]

37. Not turning Gaza into this

[MarineCombatEngineer]

41. But that's what the Allies did in WWII to Germany and Japan,

was that unnecessary also?

[iemanja]

43. Japan was absolutely unnecessary

and a travesty. Much of when on in WWII would be considered a war crime today, but the Geneva convention was set up afterward.
The US was up against Hitler in Germany. Hamas is not Hitler. It lacks the power of the German army or the ability to take over the world. That does not excuse the Allies' war crimes but simply provides context.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

45. While I respect your view on this,

I wholeheartedly disagree.
I may be a bit biased as my father was a Seabee and was in the first wave of those slated to go ashore in the invasion, it was because of the dropping of the Fat Man and Little Boy bombs that my dad survived and I'm here now.
I will never change my view on this, and I don't expect to change yours, but we can agree that the death toll throughout the whole war was horrible and should never happen again.
Peace out
Dan.

[iemanja]

83. I'm very glad your father survived

that was of course a major relief to your family.

[AZLD4Candidate]

122. Japan attacked us. Germany did not.

Rape of Nanking
Banka Island Massacre
Manila Massacre
Parit Sulong
Unit 731
Enslaved Koreans as forced prostitutes
Drug addicting children
Littering the ground with pathogens in Zhejiang and Jiangxi so people would starve
Singapore Massacre
Bataan Death March
Executing surrendered soldiers
Burning Suzhou to the ground

Yes, Japan was innocent and we're the war criminals. I forgot. My wife's great grandmother deserved to be gang raped and left in a muddy ditch to die in 1938 in Jiangsu by the IJA.

Allies war crimes? Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

[Richard D]

54. That's not what I asked

What exactly would a proportionate attack after October 7 look like? I get a lot of not this and not that, but not a single person has offered exactly what a proportionate response would have been. Let's look at it . .

1200 Israelis were murdered on Oct 7. Would a proportionate response be for Israel to kill 1200 Palestinians? Of course, this is problematic. How about rapes? Same number? Should they ask for Palestinian volunteers? Dismemberment, sexual mutilation, beheadings, incinerations? One for one? Should that then need some sort of international monitoring to make sure that it is 100 percent proportional?

Or maybe, since Hamas started it, there should be more Palestinians killed than Israelis? 2 to 1? 3? 4? Not to mention those who lost limbs by Hamas. So much to keep track of! How to choose??

Or maybe, as it seems, the world would be happier if Israel didn't take the actions needed to defend itself and her people. Maybe sending Hamas a sternly worded letter would be more proportional.

We're not even addressing the Kidnapped. We're not even addressing that Hamas promised to do more such attacks until all Jews are killed and they have "from the river to the sea". Should Israel stop the war at a time when they know that Hamas will perform more such attacks? Or do they have the right to destroy Hamas's ability ever to do an Oct 7 again? After all, it's only Jews they want to kill, right?

[Orrex]

58. "Who started it" depends very much on the date we pick

And the date we pick depends very much who we want to claim is in the wrong.

How many thousands of dead Palestinian children will be enough to sate Bibi's bloodthirsty war of distraction?

No one has yet explained how the carpet-bombing of schools, hospitals and neighborhoods will accomplish this.


As always, the standard disclaimer follows, to offset the standard accusation that I am pro-Hamas and antisemitic: Israel certainly has every right to exist, and its citizens should be able to live without fear of attack. Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped from the Earth to its last member. Hezbollah the same.

However, Bibi absolutely knows that this war of his is guaranteed to create whole generations of enemies, so what's the end game?

[Richard D]

59. You said . . .

. . . " Israel certainly has every right to exist, and its citizens should be able to live without fear of attack. Hamas is a vile terrorist regime that should be wiped from the Earth to its last member. Hezbollah the same." I agree.

So, how? Really, squawking "Netanyahu Netanyahu" is just a distraction. How could Israel destroy Hamas and Hezbollah? How should they? By what procedure can an army that surrounds themselves with civilians and places their weapons in civilian homes be destroyed without great loss of civilian life, as we are sadly seeing.

As to when it started, there was no war prior to Oct 7. Saying anything else is just gaslighting and not done very well either.

[Orrex]

63. Well, I gave it a shot. Should've known better.

Netanyahu's apologists invariably try to deflect blame from him, no matter how many children he starves and murders.

If you were to ask the Palestinians, living under occupation for decades, when the war started, I wonder if they'd likewise say October 7th.

And gaslighting? Fuck that bullshit rationalization. Gaslighting is when you say "we had to bomb your neighborhood to rubble because a member of Hamas was there somewhere."

Netanyahu is killing children by the thousands in what can only be described as his deliberate effort to create a permanent supply of enemies. Dismissing them, as you are doing, is simply an effort to dehumanize innocent victims.

[Richard D]

66. So...

... No solutions, not even any ideas that could lead to safety and peace. Sorry, not impressed.

[iemanja]

84. Perhaps I should ask you the question

You seem to think the full-scale destruction of Gaza and next Lebanon insufficient. Should every Muslim be eliminated? How many countries must be leveled for you to want the war to end?

You align yourself with a sociopath (Netanyahu) who, like Hamas, uses rape as a weapon of war (see the linked post for evidence of that fact). You defend everything he does, and you clamor for more. There is no amount of killing that you don't justify, and you have yet to show remorse for a single life lost, no matter how young. Not only that, you accuse anyone who does lament the loss of Palestinian or Lebanese life to be a "Jew hater." I'm surprised you didn't call Bernie Sanders a Jew hater, since you call everyone else that.

I made very clear in a post you already read that I believe Israel has the right to defend itself, but I also believe that Netanyahu has taken it too far. I will link to that post here so you can read it again and stop repeating the same questions. https://democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=3311958

[Richard D]

87. Nice ad hominum attack...

... And you still have not answered the question.

By the way, you know nothing about me or what I believe.

[iemanja]

89. I've read MANY of your posts

I know plenty about what you believe. You aren't exactly shy in expressing yourself.

[Richard D]

90. Your words prove your beliefs wrong.

[iemanja]

91. It was a horrific and wholly unjustified attack

and I would like to see that documentary. Unfortunately, I don't have Paramount. Perhaps it will see wider release in the future.

I would like to ask you to watch this segment from Sunday Morning.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/video/G5gIg_iwm8ZuPSjg9uqYjBizZ_NsgDdN/

As for your views, I take your posting of that video to mean Oct. 7 shaped or changed your views on Israel's defense. Am I correct? I would like to point out that, I hope, should not mean everything Israel and Netanyahu does is not justified. If I ever see you concede that, I shall apologize for mischaracterizing your views. I do wish you would stop calling people Jew haters. Not only is it, in most cases, inaccurate, it's offensive and uncivil. And here I'm speaking particularly about other DUers.

[Richard D]

93. Yes . . .

. . . I am fully aware of the tragedy of the civilian deaths in Gaza. It is horrific.

Yet I am still left with the question I asked you and many others and have received no answer other than "it shouldn't be like this."

What could Israel have done differently? This is a complex question because the first assumption in asking it is, does Israel have the right to defend itself and to categorically prevent such an attack from every happening again?

The second part of that is, of course, the hostages who have been raped, tortured, starved, and murdered. Are any alive? I hope so, though they will never have a normal day again.

I can go ad infinitum into the fact that Hamas pledges the destruction of Israel and the murder of all Jews. But I'll put that aside for now.

I can also talk about Hamas using civilians as shields which is a war crime. So is Hezbollah. And so many still call them freedom fighters.

People seem to expect Israel to not defend itself. Or just parrot those words without the slightest idea of how Isreal can do so without causing any civilian casualties. Do you know how? No military person I have spoken with does. And that is the tragic situation Hamas and now Hezbollah intentionally created. Take out a missile launcher that may kill many civilians in Israel and, in doing so, will kill the poor civilians of Gaza being used as human shields.

Have a cease-fire on Hamas's terms that will, without doubt, lead to further and even worse attacks on Israel from an enemy that has sworn to do so? Now a cease-fire only means the release of thousands of mass murderers and a pause for Hamas to re-arm, re-group, and prepare to attack again. How do you negotiate with an enemy that does not want peace, does not care for their civilians, and is committed to destroying you?

These are questions that no one I have spoken with has any good answer to, other than they start squawking Netanyahu Netanyahu!.

But no answers. Perhaps there are none yet. Perhaps the only way Israel can protect itself is by destroying Hamas. Perhaps there is no way to do that without the loss of the human shield civilians, who certainly deserve to live, as the people of Israel also deserve to live: In peace. But I do not see how to get there. Do you? Not what shouldn't be happening, but what should be happening.

Do I have Muslims? Not in the least. I have spent a lot of time in the Middle East, and some of my dearest friends of this life are Muslims. Hell, I almost married one. Do I hate Islamists? Yup. As I hate all fundamentalists. But I think we may agree on that.

[Richard D]

95. Oddly . . .

. . . this just popped into my feed and says what I want to say far better than I can say it right now. So I invite you to watch:
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DAOZ3jzvYHV/

[iemanja]

96. I watched it

and much of what she says is factual. Some I disagree with. My question to you is: what is the alternative to a negotiated peace? Destroy Lebanon as Israel has destroyed Gaza? Do you think that will end the threat? I do not. I think more terrorists will emerge, perhaps exponentially--after watching their family members killed. I think families who had no terrorists in them will likely produce terrorists bent on Israel's destruction. So how does Israel end the threat? What is enough? When is enough accomplished? How many must die for Israel to be confident it has secured its peace? Which countries are next?

Did you watch The Children of Gaza? What did you think?

[Richard D]

97. Those are the questions . . .

. . . but I believe you are making an error in assuming that Israel is acting against Gaza and Lebanon for revenge. How much right to self-protection does Israel have, and when has it protected itself enough and should surrender to being attacked. That's what it sounds like you are asking?

And, of course, Hezbollah can stop shooting missiles at Israel, and Hamas can put down their arms and return the hostages. That would put an end to it all.

[iemanja]

98. No, I'm asking how far Israel has to go to feel safe. nt

[Richard D]

99. And further questions . . .

. . . Have there been voices from Gaza asking for help in liberating Gaza from the clutches of Hamas? Why was there celebration and dancing in the streets and handing out of victory sweets after the October 7 attack?

Is Lebanon asking the international community for help in liberating itself from the clutches of Hezbollah? Are there voices from Lebanon condemning Hezbollah?

[elias7]

106. The crux of the whole thing for most of us on this forum is the issue of proportionality

There is a raging debate in social media regarding how one defines proportionality. You think Israel's response is disproportionate. If you want to hear a bit from the other side, on why those you wrangle with here do not find disproportionality in Israel’s actions, watch John Spencer or Natasha Hausdorff on YouTube regarding Urban warfare (Spencer) and the international law (Hausdorff). Listening to WHY the other side disagrees with me helps me understand a situation better.

The Arabs living within Mandatory Palestine in 1947 had no Jewish state to contend with yet, had no Bibi Netanyahu, had no West Bank settlements, no Israeli occupation, no ethnic cleansing or genocide, yet Arabs were killing Jews and trying to force them out. The reason British ceded the mandate to the UN in 1947, in their words, was that the conflict was irreconcilable; the Jews have a primary objective to have a state while the Arabs have a primary objective to stop the Jews from having a state.

Bibi has no beef with the Lebanese except maybe they don’t step up and rid themselves of a terrorist group. Beirut used to be like Monte Carlo or places like that. But Arafat brought his band of merry terrorists to settle there after getting kicked out of Jordan for doing the same thing. You also must realize that Hezbollah has been firing missiles at Israel daily since October 8th, right? 80,000 Israeli’s are currently displaced from northern Israel due to the bombing. Israel (and Bibi) have been restrained for a year. Maybe he’s not the homicidal maniac you make him out to be. Betcha didn’t know that…

[iemanja]

107. No, I am aware of that

Last edited Wed Sep 25, 2024, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)

and Lebanon also suffered from its Civil War and Syria. My question, which has yet to be answered here, is how far must Israel go to feel safe? Gaza is now decimated, essentially gone. Netanyahu has pledged to do the same to Lebanon. How many more peoples and homelands/countries must be annihilated for Israel to feel safe?

Israel of course settled on Palestinian/Arab land, which is why Palestinians have historically been hostile to its presence in the region. That the British established the whole thing was, of course, very British. That piece is discounted by Israel as relevant. I don't say this to suggest Israel has no right to exist where it does, but rather to provide some historical context, as you have done.

[claudette]

46. How is

killing innocents "defending" oneself? Go after the real perpetrators of the bomb-throwing in Lebanon - not the innocents. Intelligence should be able to find them. Right?

[maxsolomon]

100. With the Pager/Walkie-Talkie attacks, Israel did "go after the real perpetrators".

Intelligence found them.

Those were anything but indiscriminate attacks - even if innocents were killed.

[Tarc]

13. Sounds good

[Oopsie Daisy]

14. Excellent. I expect that the beatings will continue until *

* the missals and rocket bombs stop being launched from Lebanon. Fewer civilians would be killed if those weapons and launch-sites were not hidden in/around homes/markets/hospitals/etc. That's a war-crime isn't it?

[iemanja]

17. At least someone is happy with the bloodshed

That more US troops are being sent to the area. How does that make you feel? Is WWIII a cause for celebration?

Perhaps you can share with us the numbers of Israelis killed by Hezbollah attacks this year. I believe the total today is zero, but I may be wrong. Netanyahu's goal is now to turn Lebanon into Gaza--that is annihilate the country and exterminate its population. Will you applaud that as well?

[sarisataka]

20. Not going to track all 9,000 +/- attacks, but

Shredded to pieces’: Druze community grieves after Hezbollah strike kills 12 children

The residents of Majdal Shams in northern Israel said they expected a serious response to a Hezbollah rocket attack that killed at least 12 children and youths and injured more than 30 at a local soccer field on Saturday, leaving the residents of the Druze town heartbroken and in shock.

It was the single deadliest Hezbollah attack on northern Israel since fighting began on the Israel-Lebanon border on October 8, and the victims were all between 10 and 20 years old, Israel Defense Forces Spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said on Saturday night.

Jihan Safadi, the principal of the Al-Manahel elementary school, which five of the children attended, told Arab news site Panet that she couldn’t comprehend the scale of the tragedy, and couldn’t express how it felt to lose several of her students and to have several more injured in one fell swoop.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/a-dark-day-for-majdal-shams-druze-community-grieves-after-hezbollah-strike-kills-12/

You might not have heard about it.The children who die on the Israeli side of the border don't get a whole lot of attention

[iemanja]

21. That is indeed tragic

and should not occur. Thank you for that information.

I nonetheless am sickened that some DUers celebrate deaths. I don't know how they look themselves in the mirror. Every death is a tragedy, as every life has value. I lost no sleep over the death of Hezbollah militants, but the women and children killed in these airstrikes is another matter, as was the 8 yr old girl killed in the pager op.

[AloeVera]

51. The 12 Syrian Druze children killed was indeed a tragedy.

They were Syrian Druze children living on the Occupied Golan Heights that Trump allowed Israel to annex. * Just for some historical context.

Hezbollah never took responsibility. I can't imagine it was a deliberate attack, probably unintentional or a misfire. Not only can their rockets not hit most targets but it would be an absolute insane folly for them to target a field full of kids from a strategic perspective.

But the Israeli side will always present it as intentional. In this way, the deaths of those poor children can be pointed to as their casus belli to justify deaths of more children. It's just so unbelievable and sad.

FYI the pager op killed an 11-year old boy as well. We don't know how many civilians were killed or injured in total but reports indicate many women and children among them.

*Edited to clarify: annexed in 1981, a move rejected by most of the international community but recognized by Trump in 2019.

[Beastly Boy]

61. They were all legal residents of Israel

And Hezbollah killed them.

Since I doubt that you have any connection to Hezbollah, what you can or cannot imagine may differ greatly from what they can imagine and act upon.

And while Hezbollah never took responsibility, no one is disputing that the rockets were fired from Southern Lebanon. Hezbollah has full military control over Southern Lebanon. Now, who could have unintentionally set up Hezbollah rockets in the area controlled by Hezbollah, then unintentionally aimed it in the general direction of Israel and unintentionally fired it while having no intention to hit any civilians in Israel? The likelihood of all these things happening in quick succession is such that I can't imagine who would ridicule such obvious absence of intention.

Oh, and I believe I previously informed you that Israel, being technically at war with Lebanon since 1948, doesn't need a casus belli in a war against Lebanese Hezbollah.

Well maybe they wanted to make sure, and they blamed the unintentional act of setting up, aiming and firing rockets at Israel on the peace loving Hezbollah.

I am sorry, but the snark in response to such blatant nonsense writes itself. I take no responsibility for writing it.

Unbelievable and sad indeed.

[sarisataka]

64. If Hezbollah can be excused,

Or at least receive the benefit of the doubt in the deaths of the Druze children because they have not claimed responsibility shouldn't the same doubt be extended to Israel over civilian deaths caused by the pagers. Israel has not claimed responsibility.

It seems a double standard to provide excuses for one incident and not the other on the basis of assumption of intent and lack of self-indentified responsibility.

[iemanja]

110. Is there actually doubt Israel carried out the pager op?

It's been reported in the press and fact, and the Israelophiles here have defended it on behalf of Israel. I find your point disingenuous.

[sarisataka]

111. Talk about disingenuous

Is there doubt Hezbollah fired the missile that hit the soccer field?

I haven't seen anyone anywhere claim Israel was not behind the pagers.

My point is the double standards that are applied.

[iemanja]

112. I have no knowledge about the soccer field

but I did read about the pager op. If you say the attack was Hezbollah, I believe you. They are the ones who fire rockets in the area. I do think you should have mentioned those children weren't Israeli because you implied that they were.

[sarisataka]

113. I provided a link to the report

And the children were Israeli, not all Israelis are Jewish.

[iemanja]

114. fair enough

My fault for not reading it.

[AloeVera]

56. The views of the Syrian-Arab (Druze) community. An excellent article.

---snip---

How did Israel portray and seek to exploit this incident, and how did the local residents respond?

Media coverage of the event was immediate. Israeli political figures — including Benjamin Netanyahu and Bezalel Smotrich — quickly arrived on the scene, vowing to avenge the children of Majdal Shams.

However, local residents were suspicious of such rhetoric, and many who spoke to the media, including the families of the victims, affirmed that they were not seeking revenge. Residents protested the politicians’ visits, chanting “War criminals are not welcome here” and demanding that they leave. They made it clear they would not accept any killing of children or civilians, nor the instigation of a broader regional war, in the name of the Jawlan’s victims — a stance that was echoed in an official statement by the Religious and Social Authority of the Jawlan.

--Snip--
https://www.972mag.com/golan-wael-tarabieh/

What a wise and sane community. They suffered the loss of 12 of their children, yet do not seek revenge but justice. Nor do they want their childrens' deaths to be used to kill other children.

[iemanja]

82. Thank you for the information

[EX500rider]

108. " Is WWIII a cause for celebration?" Why/how would the IDF striking back at a terrorist group start WWIII?

None of the major powers needed for a WWIII care that much about Hezbollah and Iran wants no part of Israeli nukes raining down on Tehran.


Netanyahu's goal is now to turn Lebanon into Gaza--that is annihilate the country and exterminate its population
Nonsense.
If they haven't even killed 2% of Gazan's in a year of combat it's obvious to rational observers the the IDF is trying to minimize causalities as best they can given the difficult circumstances.
The same will be true in Lebanon.

[iemanja]

109. Minimize casualties?

Give me a fucking break. 41,000 is not minimal. Children targeted, boys and girls raped by IDF soldiers (Yes, Hamas rapes, and they are terrorists. Why should the IDF behave like terrorists?) The photos below do not show minimal. For anyone to call that minimal shocks me. It truly shocks me. To see multiple children with two bullets in their head and call that minimal! Netanyahu's Minister of Education has sworn that "Lebanon will be annihilated." His words. Two homelands wiped off the face of the map, but will that be enough? Will Israel feel safe? Or will more terrorists rise up after seeing their families killed? So where then will Israel take the war next.

And more US troops have gone to the region. We are embroiled in this tragedy. We not only fund the carnage, but will we now participate? That place will be the end us (by "us" I mean the United States of America.)






https://www.cbs.com/shows/video/G5gIg_iwm8ZuPSjg9uqYjBizZ_NsgDdN/
https://www.thenation.com/article/society/gaza-sexual-violence-men-boys-israel/
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/sexual-violence-gaza/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/idf-sexual-abuse-palestine-gaza-b2498888.html

[EX500rider]

115. In a confined space like Gaza..

If the IDF was trying to maximize casualties it would be over 50% after a year of combat, not less than 2%

[iemanja]

116. Answer this question

When is enough? How much must Israel destroy to feel safe?

[EX500rider]

117. Like any War it's enough when the enemy surrenders or is destroyed

Which would be Hamas in Gaza

[iemanja]

118. and Hezbollah in Lebanon?

It has already moved beyond Gaza, so clearly eradicating Hamas is not sufficient. And other terrorists that arise because Israel has killed their families? I think you know full well the answer is never. Israel will destroy the entire region and still not be satisfied.

I will also note that you ignored the evidence about the IDF targeting children and raping boys and girls. Is that because you don't want to know or don't care because any and all tactics are justified?

[EX500rider]

119. That s*** happens in any war

Best thing is don't start a war you're going to lose would be a key point to learn.

However is it the policy of the IDF or is that aberrant behavior by rogue soldiers?

And is that standard policy for Hamas , I'd say yes judging by October 7th

[iemanja]

120. Soldiers are prosecuted by civilized governments when it happens

Whereas when an egregious case of brutal case came to popular attention in Israel, It was declared "legitimate. "https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/9/everything-is-legitimate-israeli-leaders-defend-soldiers-accused-of-rape
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/
Even the Bush administration prosecuted soldiers for Abu Grhaib.

Israel commits war crimes with impunity. If you want to compare the IDF to Hamas, go right ahead. It seems fitting.

Read the articles and watch the Sunday morning segment and tell me how aberrant it is.

[EX500rider]

121. Sure lets compare:

The nine Israeli soldiers suspected of the abuse were to appear before a military court Tuesday.

While Hamas members get parades for such activity.

Aljazeera I have zero trust in about Gaza though

AJMN receives public funding from the Qatar government, which has led to disputes over whether the organization should be considered a public broadcaster or state media

On 6 May 2017, Haniyeh was elected chairman of Hamas's Political Bureau, replacing Khaled Mashal; at the time, Haniyeh relocated from the Gaza Strip to Qatar. Under his tenure, Hamas launched the 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel, and subsequently Israel declared its intention to assassinate all Hamas leaders.

[WarGamer]

23. insane.

I just wish half of all Americans weren't afraid to criticize them.

[claudette]

28. It probably would get one

banned from here.

[claudette]

27. Yes

Israel is..........

[MarineCombatEngineer]

34. It's always Israel, never HAMAs, Hizbollah or Iran.

[claudette]

44. What did I

say wrong? I left it for the reader to finish the sentence so you finished the thought that way - not me. I didn't say anything bad about Israel. It's not allowed.

[MarineCombatEngineer]

47. Your numerous posts on this subject makes it very clear what your

views on this are, you've been very transparent.
Just my thoughts.

[claudette]

49. My views

Last edited Tue Sep 24, 2024, 12:03 AM - Edit history (1)

and those of the Jewish members of my family are stop the killing BY BOTH SIDES. Who is killing more innocents? Figure it out. If that stops, then maybe the talks can begin

[MarineCombatEngineer]

50. LOL,

you're not fooling anyone here, I've said my piece, now I'm done with you on this thread.
Have a great night.

[claudette]

57. LOL

I will. You don’t fool me either. Bye.

[Aussie105]

65. It is inevitable.

The attacks from both sides shall continue until the last rocket has been fired, the last bullet used up, and people are just too tired to care about who is right and who is wrong.

But it is going to take a long time - it won't finish while people use the 'we are right and you are wrong' approach, use indiscriminate weapons of mass destruction on a 'defense' pretext, and outside interests keep sending in weapons and soldiers.

As for those who defend one side and demonise the other, please! Stop it! Otherwise, this will never end.