California residents, businesses consider bailing on Golden State over taxes
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Source: FOX (Never really has been the) NEWS
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From small businessmen in San Diego to vintners in Napa Valley, top-earning Californians reeling from a new state income tax are preparing to pack up and bail out.
"If you have excessive regulations and excessive tax, that's just not where you want to be," said Peter Farrell, president of ResMed a medical-device maker in San Diego that employs 600 workers and is considering moving its offices out of state. "California is unfriendly. It's become an unfriendly business environment."
One possibility is Texas, where the personal income-tax rate is zero, compared to 13.3 percent for top California earners.
Another San Diego-based company, Fallbrook Technologies, a maker of variable speed transmissions, recently announced it is leaving for Texas.
Nevada tax accountant George Ashley said he's received more than 100 inquiries from higher-earning Californians about the possible tax advantages and feasibility of relocating to a state with lower taxes.
"We have had a 10-fold increase from various parts of California, particularly Los Angeles and the Bay Area where many people are seeking a way to leave the state," said Ashley, who lives just over the California state line in Lake Tahoe, Nev.. "They are fed up with the situation and they feel like they are being unfairly treated."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/california-residents-businesses-consider-bailing-on-golden-state-over-taxes/#ixzz2IpLR55P7
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/01/23/california-residents-businesses-consider-bailing-on-golden-state-over-taxes/
Please debunk this. This is making the right wing rounds today.....
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bluedigger
(17,433 posts)
Auggie
(33,124 posts)
Yeah, let's leave one of the most valuable wine growing regions in the world and move to ... Texas.
DollarBillHines
(1,922 posts)Or Arizona.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The grapes have to be sourced from the Napa AVA, but there's nothing stopping the winery itself from relocating out of state. If you relocate the winery to a place like Reno, the vineyard simply becomes a California property owned by an out-of-state corporation. You could grow the grapes in Napa, do the crush in Napa, and then tanker the juice three hours up the freeway to Reno for aging and bottling. If the winery office is in Reno, it's legally a Nevada company, and not a California company.
The winery would still be on the hook for California property taxes, but the company would only have to pay California income taxes for sales within California itself, and it's owners would pay no income taxes to California whatsoever.
On edit: FWIW, this is simply an extended version of what Gallo already does with some of its "Napa" and "Sonoma" wines. The grapes are sourced from those AVA's, but are trucked two hours away to Modesto in the Central Valley for actual fermentation and bottling (they have a plant in Healdsburg for some of it, but a lot of it ends up in Modesto). A wines appellation doesn't tell you where the wine is MADE, but where the grapes are GROWN. There is nothing stopping an out of state company from buying Napa grapes and making Napa wines elsewhere.
Auggie
(33,124 posts)especially those with millions invested in on-site winemaking equipment.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)The wineries making real money are the supermarket-grade producers, and they aren't going to care much about trucking their juice a few hours up the freeway. Many of these producers ALREADY truck their juice (and even their pre-crush harvest) hours away from their harvest sites for processing. I know for a fact that DFV trucks grapes from as far as Fresno for bottling.
Smaller wineries certainly wouldn't do this, but smaller wineries generally don't generate enough profit to justify relocating out of state anyway (if you're not paying a lot of taxes, you aren't going to run to another state to avoid them). Bigger wineries would do this in a heartbeat if they thought it would make them money.
Besides, you're missing one very important point. It's not actually neccesary to ship the juice or winemaking equipment anywhere. I was simply giving an example. The winery merely needs to locate its corporate headquarters in another state, and then assign ownership of its California properties to that company. The vineyards, winemaking equipment, and even the caves and barrels can be located in California...heck, you can even keep the tasting room open for tourists...but all of those things would simply be the property of an out-of-state corporation. Under our tax rules, they would only be liable for income taxes generated on sales within California itself, and for property taxes on the land.
This is nothing new. Lockheed, Arco, Hilton...tons of companies have moved their headquarters out of California while keeping ownership of facilities here. Doing this slashes the amount of taxes they pay with little impact on their operations. There is ZERO reason why a winery couldn't do the same thing.
Of course, if you define "top producer" in terms of quality, then you're 100% right. You're never going to see some of the quality producers like David Arthur or Allora pushing their stuff through Nevada, but if you don't think that any of the already-corporate wineries (Mondavi, Diageo, etc) wouldn't do so to save a few bucks, you're kidding yourself.
kentauros
(29,414 posts)
LeftInTX
(34,209 posts)Vineyards struggle here.
Can't grow the same variety of grapes etc.
Some wineries in Texas are using native grapes, which I assume has got to be fairly expensive as they have huge seeds and are extremely bitter.
In a nutshell, it would be too expensive to move their vineyards to Texas.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)From my backyard.
I say good riddance to bad rubbish.
ROBROX
(392 posts)All the listed GOP businesses are SMALL and will not be MISSED.
The more people who leave will give the rest of us more room to breath.
The idiots are leaving for small change in profits and they give up the west coast, the people, and the future.
This is like leaving the GENE POOL. Who will miss these low life's?
Webster Green
(13,905 posts)It will be interesting to see how that works out.
arcane1
(38,613 posts) 
Bernardo de La Paz
(60,320 posts)Here is an October 2012 report showing millionaires are not driven away. I would not be surprised if a proper report would show the same thing for businesses. Looks like the Fox 'report' is mostly cherry-picking.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/taxes-dont-drive-california-rich-194018632.html
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)
alp227
(33,272 posts)
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Here in Southern California we have a terrible water shortage.
If we don't have the tax revenue to maintain decent schools, why should we want these businesses with all their employees?
If people don't pay their taxes, let them go live in some hell-hole tax-free economy.
Tax-free economies mean slums, inadequate services, inadequate transportation, and not a good environment. If Texas offers that to those fools, let them go.
Let their kids pay out-of-state tuition for our California universities and colleges. That is fine with us Californians who have been living on modest incomes for years. We really don't need those greedy types or their overbearing mansions. We can divide the mansions into apartments and get our tax money that way.
And where in the world are the Napa Valley vintners going to go? They need our geological and weather conditions. Sounds like a lot of noise to me.
In my lower middle-class community, people volunteer and work hard together. We really don't need such a large population in Southern California. Really not. Our water is already rationed. And we haven't gotten much rain this year so far.
Shut the door on your way out, guys. Thanks.
Retrograde
(11,416 posts)We're seeing a lot of high density mixed-use developments here, which is good for some things, but roads are at capacity or worse. I take the train when I have to go anywhere near San Francisco, and even that's filled over capacity in the mornings.
Let them leave: we have too many people already. And maybe the exodus will put a halt to rising property costs so people other than dotcom millionaires can afford to live here.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)This past Saturday, we got up and drove down the freeway to Union Station in downtown Los Angeles. The traffic was great -- like it is in the middle America. We were actually able to drive the few miles at a steady, good pace. We told each other it must be like in the good old days when Los Angeles was not so terribly overpopulated.
Unless you live in a large American city like Los Angeles, you have no idea what is going on. First, the demand for public services -- like just plain streets and sidewalks is overwhelming here. The City can no longer afford to maintain our sidewalks the way they should. Second, the disparity between the housing and lifestyles of the rich and the rest of us is so unseemly, so visible in a city like Los Angeles.
I say. Let them go to Arkansas or Texas where their employees will be able to live well on what these greedy bosses want to pay them. Let their kids go to the schools in Texas or Arkansas. It will teach them a lesson.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)Living here in wine country sure is swell. Watching winery after winery drain water illegally from local streams to protect the precious crops while our water supplies dwindle ever further down and our once prosperous salmon are now almost undetectable.
Add on to it the amount of loud, annoying aholes who traverse a couple hundred miles in gas guzzlers, or even worse, fly in and spew pollution over some of most beautiful lands left in California just to taste some booze.
15-20 years ago it wasn't so bad. Today it seems like every other schmuck has to own a winery and to watch them clear cut old growth Redwood forests and poison the local flora and fauna to grow more grapes brings a heavy heart.
Please, leave. You can grow nothing finer here than a Redwood.
DollarBillHines
(1,922 posts)They made their money in CA and now want to take it somewhere else?
'Vintners in Napa"? Yeah, sure. Due to my situation, I know hundreds of people in the Industry. I have yet to hear this from any one of them. I also know quite a few wealthy and high-income repubs and have not caught drift of this.
I imagine I will, though, if this shit is making the RW rounds, as most of the 'pubs I know are parrots.
Nevada? Gimme a break.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)arcane1
(38,613 posts)A Napa Valley winemaker is relocating to Jackson Hole, Wyoming?
Wealthy people are the biggest crybabies out there. Since this article is just hearsay, it's no surprise it's "making the right wing rounds" 
BlueCaliDem
(15,438 posts)They've got to gin up another monster to protest and fight against raising corporate taxes and taxes on the wealthy.
I know enough millionaires to know they're not moving their businesses out of state at all. In fact, they're expanding their operations and hiring more people.
That said, vineyards in Texas?? The whole reason why CA wine has shot to the world's top wines and equals if not beats fine French wine is because of the perfect Napa Valley climate. I seriously doubt Texas has anything of that kind (and the air quality is probably horrendous - not good for grapes!).
cstanleytech
(28,458 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)The air quality is good outside the cities, and the cities are pretty far apart.
Austin and the Hill Country are rocky and semi-arid.
http://wineenabler.com/wineries/
http://wineenabler.com/wineries/texas-wineries-map/
LeftInTX
(34,209 posts)Can't grow the same varieties as California.
It's also very difficult to grow table grapes here. Can't grow Thompson's etc.
LeftInTX
(34,209 posts)Service oriented economy is why - not much industry
But it isn't very good for growing quality grapes because of the climate.
Too hot, too humid etc. We've also got Pierce's disease.
olddad56
(5,732 posts)Hello, it is fake news.
MindPilot
(12,693 posts)"Businesses have been threatening to leave California in droves" ever since I moved here over 30 years ago. Either it is an extraordinarily slow process or it isn't actually happening.
And in a typical bending of the truth (OK, out and out fabrication) Fallbrook Technologies is not "moving to Texas". They a San Diego-based company and already have operations in Texas, Michigan, China and Europe. They are simply expanding their manufacturing facility in Texas because they entered into a strategic partnership with another company last year.
I would like to ask one of those Fox "reporters" exactly why a company would leave a state that is somewhere between the sixth and ninth largest economy in the world with a huge pool of well-educated workers.
Bennyboy
(10,440 posts)I know I am gonna be arguing this tonight.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)Good riddance.
And corporations always manage to rig it so they pay little or no taxes anyway. They balk at paying what the Little People pay.
barbtries
(31,298 posts)i don't consider fox news a credible news source. is this LBN?
Turbineguy
(40,037 posts)was jabbering about this on CNBC. The usual, "they'd collect more taxes if they lowered them" mantra.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)"Post the latest news from reputable mainstream news websites and blogs. Important news of national interest only."
When did we start considering Fox News a reputable new source?
LoisB
(12,969 posts)mainer
(12,549 posts)when some merchandise I created was sold there at a conference. By the time my accountant and I finished filing all the necessary paperwork on sales that amounted to less than $50 of California sales taxes, I decided I was never going to sell anything else in California ever again.
...we own a SMALL business and don't find much of a hassle at all with paying the sales taxes.
We wouldn't leave the state for nothing...It's give and take, no matter where you are.
I hope all the Haters, take the next express train out of our Golden State.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)the taxes ain't that bad and they sure ain't that hard.
LoisB
(12,969 posts)
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I knew one couple who swore they'd have to move out of the California if Prop. 13 didn't pass. It passed and the couple bought a second home in Big Bear.
They confused "entitlement" with "need"...
TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)kentauros
(29,414 posts)And I enjoy Texas 
TeamPooka
(25,577 posts)But if conservatives want to leave Cali for Texas I will be glad to encourage them to go....anywhere.
KatyMan
(4,339 posts)we have enough rich assholes
kentauros
(29,414 posts)are less conservative than what we've got here already. So, we would still win as their influence would water down the stupid ones' power, giving us Liberals a better chance of winning again. So, I hope they do move here! 
Igel
(37,516 posts)It wouldn't have the effect you say, anyway. Since Clinton, if you're in the top few % you're more likely to be (D). It's an outdated stereotype that the rich are all (R). They're far from being all (D), but they swing that way since 2008 or before.
An out-migration of the nouveau riche would have another effect, however: With a sharply progressive income tax you get more tax revenue from a $2 million income than from 40 $50k incomes. A lot more. Even the US government gets more from the top 1 or 5% than the amount of income received by the top 1 or 5%.
Part of CA's tax problem was precisely this. The top 10% took nearly 50% of the recession's hit to income. The progressiveness of the income tax structure in CA made the income tax revenue stream take a disproportionate hit. Nothing made for reduced expenditures, however.
Same thing happened to NY in 2001/2002. The 'exuberance" of the stock market bubble under Clinton had produced huge bonuses on Wall Street, with commensurately huge tax payments to Albany. With the bonuses smashed to pieces, the huge tax payments ceased. NY State had assumed that that income stream would be permanent and built it into the budget on an on-going basis. Smashing the bonuses smashed the NYS budget.
mike_c
(37,046 posts)Yeah, if Texas wants rich people who want a free ride at others' expense, more power to 'em.
KatyMan
(4,339 posts)We didn't do anything (this time)--
Texas also has a large economy--
Thing is, if these millionaires actually move here- welcome to property taxes!! We may not have state income tax, but trust me, we make up for it in property taxes. Mine run about 5500.00 per year- and I don't live in a mansion (just a 150,000 tract home)
kentauros
(29,414 posts)Democratic (I HATE TEXASS!!!11!) Underground 
Doesn't mean I like it, but the haters seem to. And they're louder. Like republicans.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)but in Alabama if you've got enough property you hardly pay any taxes on it at all. Even if you're from out of state and don't have a branch in this state, if you're rich enough you're a-ok with Bama.
KatyMan
(4,339 posts)Our property taxes/municipal taxes/school taxes run about 5500.00 on 150,000.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)
I was referring to timber companies paying crapall in property taxes even though they own about half the state.
oldandhappy
(6,719 posts)Bye.
Hope you find well educated, experienced people to be your employees.
KatyMan
(4,339 posts)in college-educated citizens-
32% vs 38%
http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/new-state-state-college-attainment-numbers-show-progress-toward-2020-goal
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)I realize that it's Faux News and almost certainly bullshit, but as a Californian, I actually wish the article was true. Who the hell needs a bunch of cheap asses living here anyways? We live in one of the most beautiful states in the world. We have every kind of climate, every kind of amusement park, every kind of ethnic food, every kind of outdoor activity, basically anything you can want here. We have Silicon Valley, Hollywood, some of the best universities, the tallest Redwood trees in the world, and some of the most beautiful parks in the world. We make A LOT of the world's best wine and grow some of the best bud too. We were the birth place of the hippie movement and one of the strongholds in the fight for gay rights.
If you don't think living here is worth a little bit of your paycheck every month to see to it that our beautiful environment is protected, our schools are thriving, our roads are worth driving on, and our public transportation flows freely, then hey, get the fuck out of here and leave this beautiful state to those that aren't too cheap to protect it!
WhoWoodaKnew
(847 posts)but there is a point when taxes become excessive. As a business owner myself, I'm glad I'm not in Cali right now. I have everything I need in my state and end up playing less in taxes than I would in CA. Heck, we decided years ago to not ship our products to CA simply due to the complexity of their sales tax system (although I admit that we were doing very little business there anyway).
mainer
(12,549 posts)I didn't mind paying merchant sales taxes in California -- what I hated was the hours and headache, trying to figure out which forms to fill out and what they'd accept for paperwork. My accountant told me he hated dealing with California, and I avoid doing any business there if I can.
kiranon
(1,738 posts)Living in this beautiful area is worth the taxes we pay. And we have Gov. Jerry Brown.
still_one
(98,883 posts)
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)Sothey may save nothing.
adieu
(1,009 posts)the state? You can't bring your vines to some other dirt-bag state and expect them to do as well as they did in Napa. You can't just move to another state and expect there to be a complete wine-industry infrastructure: bottling plants, barrel makers, aging warehouses, transporters, legal, insurance, people willing to come and visit your winery for tasting, etc. There's a whole eco-system in Napa and Sonoma. You can't just somewhere else with it.
These yokels will make the stink, go somewhere else and come back two years later realizing that win infrastructure comes taxes. Go to a low-tax place and realize there is no infrastructure.
SpartanDem
(4,533 posts)
savalez
(3,517 posts)libdem4life
(13,877 posts)leveling out. Many of the emmigrants end up coming back. 120 degree heat, snowstorms on New Year's Day, no recreational pot, etc. Oregon weighs in occasionally, too. We've got Jerry Brown for the second time...it's all good.
BadGimp
(4,109 posts)Eom
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)Don't let the door hit you in the ass you cheapskates! Good riddance!
And forget about your vacation homes here, don't come back.
byronius
(7,971 posts)The business environment has never been better.
If these people are real, may I say to them: don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you.
"Teabaggers unite!" somewhere in Teabaggerstan. And take all your semi-autos and confederate bumper stickers with you.
REP
(21,691 posts)Analysis/feature piece; doesn't conform to this Forum's SoP. Please consider reposting in Good Reads, General Discussion or the California Group.