'Most lethal sniper in US history': Chris Kyle shot dead on Texas gun range.
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Source: The Independent.
A famous American marksman and author was shot dead yesterday on a Texas rifle range. Chris Kyle, the former Navy SEAL who claimed to have been the most prolific sniper in American history, had a bounty put on his head by insurgents in Iraq, who dubbed him "The Devil of Ramadi."
He was at Rough Creek Lodge's shooting range near Forth Worth, Texas, with another man. Both were fatally shot. Witnesses said a gunman opened fire on the men at around 3:30 yesterday afternoon before fleeing in a pick-up truck belonging to one of the victims, according to a local newspaper. The newspaper said a 25-year-old man was later taken into custody nearby and that charges were expected. The motive for the shooting is unclear.
Kyle, 38, wrote the best-selling book, "American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in US Military History," about the 150-plus insurgents he killed between 1999 and 2009. He was being sued for defamation by Jesse Ventura, former Governor of Minnesota, over the book's claim that Kyle punched Ventura in a 2006 bar fight over unpatriotic remarks. Ventura said the punch never happened. Kyle had asked that Ventura's claims of invasion of privacy and "unjust enrichment" be dismissed, saying there was no legal basis for them. But a federal judge said the lawsuit should proceed. The suit was set to begin in August.
The married father of two, from Odessa, Texas, was president of Craft International, providing sniper and security training for the US military. He saw four tours of Iraq, during which he was shot twice. He received three Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars with Valor.
Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/most-lethal-sniper-in-us-history-chris-kyle-shot-dead-on-texas-gun-range-8478695.html
Yes, guns do kill people, quite a few people.
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Bucky
(55,334 posts)Seriously, this sounds like a horrible murder. Absolutely disgusting. I'm glad they caught the guy. It seems so deliberate, you have to wonder which someone wanted a war hero dead so bad he'd go after him on a rifle range. Personal grudge?
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(On edit: I see now that the main suspect is another vet suffering from PTSD and that allegedly the Kyle and the other murder victim had gone to the shooting range to counsel the guy. This is a terrible tragedy. But it shows that even those whom society trusts with gun are capable of making judgment errors that lead to needless deaths. The fact remains that the death-by-gun rate in communities with strict gun laws is significantly lower than the rate in areas without them. Even if you think guns don't kill people but people do, we can't outlaw people but we can regulate guns.)
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)The link doesn't have much of the story but it's been posted here a half dozen times so check out one of the others. He was counseling a fellow vet with PTSD...at a gun range. 
Ilsa
(64,371 posts)to get Kyle to meet him? Are there any more details on the shooter yet? I've read a couple of the articles. I can't help but wonder if there wasn't a personal grudge about something else that Kyle was unaware of.
I think it's great that Kyle wanted to help a fellow vet, but wouldn't it be better to do that kind of volunteer work under the direction of a vet counselor?
bluedigger
(17,437 posts)I think it's safe to say that Kyle seemed ill-suited and unqualified to provide counseling services. He was a very good impersonal killer, though, so he had that going for him.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)I'll take it on face value that a veteran at a gun range who needed some sort of counseling or talking to has PTSD.
I don't go looking for conspiracies under every bush.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...under every Bush you'll probably find a conspiracy. 
TYY 
under every bush.
Thank you for getting the capitalization right.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)I hope everybody can instantly see how insane that very concept is. You take a guy suffering from PTSD to a shooting range? WTF?
That doesn't justify the shooting or make it any less of a tragedy. Indeed, the irony of the stupidity of (some) gun people just makes it all the more tragic.
"I don't know what went wrong. My buddy Fred is an alcoholic who fell off the wagon, so I decided the best thing for him was an outing to the bar to help him deal with it."
"My Pal Rick has been convicted of animal abuse, so I thought maybe it would help to take an outing to the chicken fights."
Walk away
(9,494 posts)
klook
(13,600 posts)would make a pretty good bumper sticker.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)Add yet two more names (and perhaps three) to the list of those who have died because of our pointless, unnecessary "wars of choice."
Bucky
(55,334 posts)It's three, by the way. The butterfly effects of Bush lying to us to go grab Iraq's oil will never cease.
CincyDem
(7,392 posts)...he had a gun close by for protection and was trained to use it. Yep, woulda been fine.
caseymoz
(5,763 posts)At least he would have had a fighting chance. If that criminal had only played by the rules and given him the chance to draw. Then truly, the criminals would only win 50 percent of the time, just like in the Old West.
Arkansas Granny
(32,265 posts)
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)danger!!
We need MOAR GUNZ!
Yes, for some reason, all I'm getting from the loonies is that he was hunted down by parties unknown for reasons unknown using techniques unknown in order to take down the "most lethal man in American." Which would actually prove that really excellent gun skills is a magnet to crime, not a deterrent.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)was killed by a gun. It's usually the folks at the bottom of the pyramid (people stupid enough to think that having a gun in their house makes them or their family safer) that get shot and killed!
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)43 times more likely that you will be involved in gun violence, whether by injury or death.
I mean, if ever an expert there was, this guy was bound to be one.
Now, about arming all those teachers....
Bucky
(55,334 posts)Plus, I might add, we know absolutely nothing about what Kyle's views on gun control were. Not that it matters. I want to see assault weapons taken off the market to prevent the murders of people regardless of their views on the 2nd Amendment. And you should, too.
left coaster
(1,093 posts)"In the wake of the slayings of 20 children and six adults at a school in Newtown, Connecticut in December, Kyle was interviewed in January about rising calls for curbing gun violence in the United States. He told the website guns.com that he favored arming teachers who have been screened and trained and spoke against restrictions on gun owners."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/02/03/us-usa-crime-sniper-idUSBRE91202K20130203?feedType=RSS
But, I agree that this does sound like a case of murder.
Ter
(4,281 posts)Them first.
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)Are you saying you need your gun to protect you from "US government snipers"?
I'm saying we should set by example. The government always talks about gun-control, yet they keep upgrading their own arms. They should disarm, not us. Stop the wars, stop the snipers, and most of all, stop the drones and NDAA.
Bucky
(55,334 posts)You can't make policy starting from a tabula rasa starting point.
thucythucy
(9,103 posts)stop the killing, cut "defense" spending AND implement meaningful gun reform.
As a society we can work toward more than one goal at a time.
BTW, it isn't only "government" talking about gun control.
I'd say Newtown parents, and their allies. and very many millions of citizens are now the ones most adamant that something must be done to curb the easy access to highly lethal weaponry. "Government" by and large is merely reacting to this new reality.
Whether anything meaningful will be done, especially on the federal level, remains to be seen.
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)This is one of those things that falls under the "price of 'freedom' ".
As long as it is legal to own guns, there is nothing that can prevent a bunch of mentally disturbed people from blasting each other.
I suppose if a person is receiving treatment for PTSD, they should be in a database that makes it illegal form them to buy or possess firearms. But that would have the side-effect of discouraging them from seeking treatment.
Which is more important to you, your sanity or your guns? For most gun owners, the answer to that question is obvious.
Bucky
(55,334 posts)I didn't mean to imply THAT. In fact, that's the real conundrum of gun control policy. If you do something and it prevents a murder that might otherwise have happened, you'll never know. Meanwhile, murders you didn't prevent continue to make the news.
You have to look at hard numbers and not give a shit about the anecdotes, even though it's the anecdotes that create the political will to regulate guns. In the aggregate, communities with strict gun control laws have lower than average gun homicide rates. Communities with lax gun control laws have higher than average gun homicide rates. But no one tells us this on TV because it's boring. For some places, it bores some people to death.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Bucky
(55,334 posts)But for the record, Iraq's American-level proliferation of firearms didn't prevent a dictator from taking over their government & introducing a totalitarian regime, didn't prevent a modern army from conquering their country, and didn't prevent complete chaos from rising up and taking over their streets after the initial crisis was over.
But as I said above, this has nothing to do with the fact that a mad was murdered by another man who shouldn't have had a gun in his hands.
Dyedinthewoolliberal
(16,211 posts)how does that saying go? "You live by the sword, you die by the sword"
Bucky
(55,334 posts)He didn't die in combat. He was murdered the way that killer might've murdered any one of us.
Unless this was some Iraqi who'd tracked him down for killing a family member (pretty unlikely, but possible) this was not a "by the sword" killing. This was murder.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)do you hear yourself?
Bucky
(55,334 posts)is going to do a lot less damage to civilians than a drone, an airstrike, or a swarm of Marines moving house-to-house through an Iraqi neighborhood. Obviously I don't think attacking Iraq in the first place was anything but malicious and wrongheaded. But I'm not so heartless as to laugh at the death of a man who died trying to be a humanitarian to a suffering fellow vet. And I'm not so blind, as you seem to be, that I'll blame the loyal-serving ground troops for the sins of the Bush gang.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)State-sanctioned murder.
Bucky
(55,334 posts)that you're basically making up your own definitions to well established terms. You can call it "floral display" if you like. For the rest of society there's a core understanding that battles are different than peace, even if you can't see the difference.
This is, of course, not to say that the battles he fought in were necessary, well chosen, or not the result of a crooked bunch of oil-grabbers who'd hijacked the American government. But I don't want to live in a country where the military is free to ignore or countermand the directives of the civilian government.
And, again, without defending the particular views of this one sniper, I will say that a sniper is a far more selective killer in a battlefield than an airstrike, a scud, a mortar, a bunkerbuster, a tank, a drone, or a swarm of troops going house to house through a neighborhood looking for a suspected insurgent. Snipers rarely kill innocents; a precision targeting that most of American battlefield firepower cannot claim.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)even when the government says it's ok. what i won't do is fetishize the military. my 17 year old son doesn't remember a time when we weren't at war. not every soldier is a hero. some are just killers. and some are murderers.
Bucky
(55,334 posts)But that doesn't mean we get to make false equivalencies between military zones and civilian zones. In fact, that sort of false comparison--saying the whole country is a war zone because of the short-lived threat from terrorists--is the core of the Bush administration's sins.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)Dyedinthewoolliberal
(16,211 posts)my comment was more along the lines of his whole life focus, it seems, is about killing and guns. I suppose this also could qualify as irony in the 1st degree...............
Bucky
(55,334 posts)Looking at the other stories in LBN, it turns out he was on the rifle range with a buddy to help counsel a 3rd guy who was suffering from PTSD. In hindsight, not the best meeting spot. But he died trying to be a humanitarian.
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Bucky
(55,334 posts)I don't apologize for his world view, but he didn't didn't die as a result of his killing people. He was murdered, apparently, because he was trying to encourage a vet with PTSD to seek treatment. There might be some irony there, but if he'd been an asshole callous to the suffering of a fellow human being that morning, he'd still be alive.
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roody
(10,849 posts)About it
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)To be completely frank, I also doubt if we have any irony left for the rest of the week.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)"Full Metal Jacket" (the last 30 minutes) if you don't think snipers murder. Don't want to spoil the movie for those who haven't seen it, so I'll leave it at that.
Oh wait, if a sniper does it on a battlefield, it doesn't qualify as 'murder'? But if a sniper is killed on a gun range it is 'murder'?
Kyle was an asshole who sought to profit from having taken others' lives BY WRITING A BOOK ABOUT IT. Jeesh. Most decent combat vets don't like to discuss the casualites they inflicted, much less brag about it.
Of course it is. The claims to be one of the most prolific murderers in US history... sounds like karma kicked in...
Live by the sword...
daleo
(21,317 posts)Which is supposed to work in multiple ways and on multiple levels. It doesn't have to be directly comparable tit for tat retribution. Also karma in this case would not care whether the sniper's killings were technically legal, if the wars were unjust.
I am not saying that I personally believe in the concept, though it does have a certain appeal to many people.
Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)tama
(9,137 posts)"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
http://bible.cc/matthew/26-52.htm
valerief
(53,235 posts)your forehead and another in the back of your head. They're triggered by thoughts.
Yep, that would have saved him. Gun implants, because implants aren't just for boobies anymore.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)valerief
(53,235 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)about Ventura and punching him was strange. All witnesses say it did not go down that way.
Ventura should continue the suit on his estate as they will continue to make $$ off the book that has the lie about Ventura in it
NickB79
(20,356 posts)My sincere condolences go out to his family and friends, but I have to say, the irony is astounding here.
thatgemguy
(506 posts)Bigmack
(8,020 posts)...was Carlos Hathcock.... a Marine sniper in Vietnam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Hathcock
Bucky
(55,334 posts)But at least he lived up to his name. I only wish he'd written an autobio called Going Off Hathcock'd
Recursion
(56,582 posts)He was horribly wounded while rescuing a half-dozen people from a burning tank. I met him very early in my Marine Corps career, just before he died. Seriously, not cool
Bucky
(55,334 posts)If you notice, upthread, I'm the one NOT blaming the country's gun problems on trained military snipers.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)how lethal he was, IIRC, unlike this douchenozzle Kyle. I only know about Hathcock second-hand from reading about him. Thanks for your mention of him.
Mortos
(2,454 posts)Chris had 160 confirmed kills (confirmed by the Department of Defense) though he claimed 255, Carlos had 93.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle
Festivito
(13,890 posts)Hmmm.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)add. Belies your screen name, I would say.
Jumping John
(930 posts)order kind of guy. More like a bully.
Arrowhead2k1
(2,121 posts)nt
derby378
(30,262 posts)...have not only disrespected a man who put his life on the line for his country, but also potentially hurt the perception that many Americans have towards Democrats.
I am the proud uncle of a Marine sniper who has performed tours of duty in Afghanistan. If it was him who had been shot instead of Kyle, my rage against your dismissive clucking would have been thoroughly justified.
My heart goes out to Kyle's family and friends. And that area is more properly classified as a resort instead of a gun range - I've driven through that area of Texas before while hunting ghost towns and fossils.
nenagh
(1,925 posts)He received three Silver Stars and five Bronze Stars with Valour"
RIP. 
appleannie1
(5,457 posts)was armed there would be no more killings. And when someone as trained as he was gets killed at a shooting range, it proves how dumb that argument really is.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)...
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Snipers save lives. One sniper risking his life means a platoon of Marines or Rangers don't have to go storm that building.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Truly disgraceful. Truly.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Bucky
(55,334 posts)Are you mad at the people for laughing at the supposed "karma" of the event or the people saying it a sad loss to an honorable life? The thing about snipers, you'll notice, is their precision.
appleannie1
(5,457 posts)
tawadi
(2,110 posts)mbperrin
(7,672 posts)and beaten-down arguments just like they were fresh new rhetoric.
Best thing I've seen so far: That new bumper sticker: We can't outlaw people, but we can regulate guns.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Me? Zero. I don't have dad's kind of courage.
You know what? For that reason alone, I think it's appropriate for the oh-so sensitive and morally-tuned among us to cut him some fucking slack and hope that the authorities find justice for his family.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)When he left the service he put away the war and guns and lived productive and peaceful life. He would never have a gun in the house. Plenty of brave men who served their country do not come home to glorify guns, violence and death. Putting yourself in the middle of the gun culture is dangerous and, although it is regretful, it should never be surprising that it can lead to death by gun.
loudsue
(14,087 posts)Taking people's lives. I can't imagine it. War so sucks, and there are people who live for that kind of thrill, or whatever it is.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)live by the gun, die by the gun.
and there is always a faster gunslinger.
of course, without a gun or bullet, this guy (I have to say I never heard of him before) would be alive.
peace13
(11,076 posts)I thought guns made us safer.
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)any killing like this is senseless and terrible, but given all of those folks who may have had guns at the range - weapons loaded, out and ready to fire... and who were well trained and likely better aim than most.... still, the perpetrator got away?
The story unfolding will bring more news I'm sure, but for the killer to exit the scene?
peace13
(11,076 posts)It is clear that the gun lovers will not offer the solution to the problem, even when their own are gunned down!
tomm2thumbs
(13,297 posts)what happened after the initial shooting? did people react at all, even with guns at the ready or is the public, even with training, skills and weapons, not the answer to bad folks with guns?
No doubt they would attempt to protect themselves if they knew of a threat at home where they had time to wrap their heads around the problem, but do they actually choose to have a hand at defending or protecting others in public situations? Did anyone try? I am interested to find out in this particular case.
Could be nobody wanted to get involved...
lynne
(3,118 posts)- that even the most vigilant defender - someone who had to constantly be aware of threats during his 4 tours of Iraq - was not some wild-west gunslinger thinking that everyone was out for him. His guard was down as he didn't perceive a threat from a friend.
My thoughts and prayers go out to his family. Have to feel bad for the family of the man that shot them, too. Until we better address mental health issues, including PTSD, these sad stories will continue.
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)get it on a shooting range no less....wow.
What was NRA saying....good guys and guns and whatever pablum they put out?
go west young man
(4,856 posts)PTSD is part of it but I bet there's more possibly involving a job promise or something to that effect.
Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)
iemitsu
(3,891 posts)I struggle to find sympathy for a man who would spend his life killing others.
