Russia urges US and North Korea to show restraint

[PolitFreak]

Source: The Guardian

Russia has urged the US and North Korea to show restraint after Pyongyang said it was entering a "state of war" with South Korea in a further escalation of its bellicose rhetoric.

"We hope that all parties will exercise maximum responsibility and restraint and no one will cross the point of no return," said senior Russian foreign ministry official Grigory Logvinov on Saturday.

On Friday the Pentagon declared that the US was fully capable of defending itself and its allies against a missile attack from North Korea, whose leader, Kim Jong-un, had declared that rockets were ready to be fired at American bases in the Pacific. Kim's words came in response to the US flying two nuclear-capable B-2 stealth bombers over the Korean peninsula this week.

On Saturday, a spokesman for the Foreign Office warned North Korea that its statements would lead to further isolation.

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/30/russia-us-north-korea-restraint

[jimmil]

1. You know....

If you have someone who is of questionable ability as well as sanity that has a really big weapon it is advisable not to go up and spit in his face or poke him with a stick. Why does the US do these things? We intentionally antagonize a group just to start some shit with them. People always end up dying and it isn't the ones that are poking the stick in the cage.

[MinneapolisMatt]

2. The US is not antagonozing North Korea.

Get your facts straight.

[tarheelsunc]

3. +1. eom

[Poll_Blind]

4. +1 Strange but true. This one ain't on us. nt

PB

[Spitfire of ATJ]

7. Did you miss where we have been doing flyovers?

[Posteritatis]

9. Did you miss the previous six decades? (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

10. We weren't blowing up people with drones all that time.

[Posteritatis]

11. I'll take that as a "yes," then. (nt)

[Spitfire of ATJ]

13. Are you saying we have been bombing them for 60 years?

[Flatulo]

19. Flyovers were of S. Korea. nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

85. I knew that.

But this is still intimidating.



That's the point of it.

[demosincebirth]

77. Flyovers are over S. Korea, not N. Korea. What's wrong with that. I think we've been doing that for

at least fifty years.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

86. They have a guy trying to convince his generals that he's tough...

Plus he wants direct talks with the United States and he wants the South to give a little.

A Peace Summit could do a lot but it can't be just us. China, Russia and Japan all need to be involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Google up tripartite talks

And six party talks

[Spitfire of ATJ]

96. LOL! Yes,...I already know about that from the election...

Remember? Republicans were claiming America shouldn't speak to the enemy.

They presented themselves and standing over the bad guys with a sword and Democrats as wanting to swap recipes.

[Ash_F]

15. Should another country be flying bombers so close to our borders like we do to others??

No country in their right minds has done that to the US since it has become a superpower except, ironically, Russia and they don't do it anymore. It wasn't a good time for either nation's peoples.

They may be on to something.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Sorry, but in this case the US is not antagonizing NK

[Setsuna1972]

80. Whaaaa...???

Last time I looked, it was North Korea testing nuclear weapons, firing missiles over Japan, Okinawa, and just causing trouble for everyone else. The North Koreans are just bat shit crazy, and this their new Dear Leader is just acting like he WANTS to start a war. Go tell their crazy asses to calm down, the US is just there to show support for South Korea and Japan like the treaties we signed with them said !

[davidpdx]

99. If you really look at who has been making the threats

it has been North Korea for the past 6-7 years that has constantly threatened South Korea. Also keep in mind that North Korea has attack South Korea in the very recent future in two ways 1) the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan; and 2) the shelling of Yeongpyeong Island. Now please explain to me how that isn't aggressive?

The United States has agreed to defend South Korea and should do so.

I'm going to repeat what I've posted before:

South Korea 15th largest economy in the world, 1.1 trillion in GDP, Total population: 48 million people, Population in the Seoul Metro Area (Seoul, Incheon, Gyeonggi-do): 23.8 million.

If North Korea attacks, it would devastate the South Korean economy and kill perhaps a millions.

Now if you can't understand what I've written and the consequences, then you are ignorant.

[AndyA]

5. Russia needs to direct its warning to North Korea

The United States is not the aggressor here, North Korea is with its constant threats and missile tests. North Korea's new leader seems like he must be insane to make these continuing threats. Their economy is in shambles due to sanctions, and they really aren't in a position to endure further isolation. The North Korean people are the ones who are ultimately paying the price.

[davidpdx]

98. Both Russia and China need to direct the warnings at North Korea

It seems to me that Russia is just parroting what China is saying.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

6. Not every country WANTS to be part of the world community....

The US refuses to see that.

Isolating NK is like suspending a kid for two weeks for skipping school.

[Gore1FL]

8. NK has fired a gun in the cafeteria if we are going to use that analogy. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. More like popped a paper bag....

[Gore1FL]

14. Perhaps, but it is clear they are armed and threatening. n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. When are they NOT?

That's the thing about NK.

Keep in mind that under Bush they actually offered to give up their nuclear crap if we would give them stuff like oil and food but we said they were commies so they had to suffer.

There's money to be made in war and people itching to start one.

Then there's this attitude in parts of America of wanting to take on people that aren't white who we see as getting uppity. As a lesson for the others.

[Gore1FL]

17. No one is itching to start a war with N. Korea.

North Korea is itching to provoke one, however.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

18. Are you kidding? There are guys in the Pentagon who would LOVE to kick their ass....

Let's see, Vietnam sold a shitload of helicopters,...Iraq sold a bunch of Bradleys and Hummers.

Aren't we due for a good old fashion tank charge?

[Gore1FL]

22. What guys? Do have names?

Is there evidence or is this a conspiracy theory?

When it becomes clear that the joint chiefs of staff are chomping at the bit to start another conflict while still winding down the longest active engagement in U.S. history fought simultaneously with the second longest active engagement in U.S. history I'll be inclined to find a "middle ground" on this issue.

We have a country that is openly threatening it's neighbors with nuclear weapons. On the other side, you have the United States along with the rest of the world saying, "that's a bad idea for a number of reasons." (paraphrased).

If North Korea wants to be a backward world outcast, they can be. When they begin to shit in everyone's backyard it quits being cute. The United stakes is neither provoking nor encouraging conventional or nuclear conflict.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

23. Ever hear of "war games"?

For some, this is all just a game.

[Gore1FL]

25. I've heard of the the movie and the term.

Can you name names from the Pentagon itself, or State Department, Defense Department that consider foreign policy with North Korea and the surrounding nations "a game" or is this speculation on your part?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. Look at the date....

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=119555

We started these flights and NK responded by aiming it's guns at us.

Do you honestly believe targets aren't pre-selected and we aren't ready to take out those guns? They have the yields and altitudes calculated for primary and secondary targets for maximum effect. That's the whole point of a "war game".

I'm glad that Chuck Hagel and Obama are committed to the troops, the Neocons would be making things worse.

Wanna read something funny about all of this?

Hours after the statement, Pyongyang threatened to shut down the jointly run Kaesong industrial park, angered by reports that the complex remained open because it was a source of hard currency for the impoverished North.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-threatens-allout-war-a-nuclear-war-as-it-announces-it-is-on-war-footing-with-south-8554932.html

It's like a pissed off kid who still expects their allowance.

[Gore1FL]

32. I am sure targets are pre-selected

That doesn't mean there is a conspiracy to set off a hot war on a whim.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

34. I never made that claim. I said there are people lined up to make money on it.

I wish we followed the old model where the government seized industry for war production at cost instead of war toys for profit.

[Gore1FL]

36. That's fine and dandy but has little to do with N. Korea's current escalations.

Those escalations are not blamable on the United States, China, Japan, South Korea, Russia, Brazil, Algeria, or Australia. Yet you are suggesting that people in places of power are pushing for a war with North Korea, yet can provide no names, no evidence other than suggesting that money could be made by some in such an ill-advised adventure.

No one is grandstanding about a war with North Korea except for North Korea.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

39. I never said they were. I said people are lined up to use it as a money maker....

That's true no matter what.

Ever see "The Pentagon Wars"?

[Gore1FL]

41. What are you arguing?

This is not a rational rhetorical defense of North Korea's recent actions. Nor does it resuscitate the original false-equivalency argument.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

44. There you go again claiming that I'm on their side....

Do I have to pick a side in this fight?

Can't I just say, "Stop waving the firepower to see who backs down first"?

[Gore1FL]

46. There is nothing wrong with moving military assets into a location

where an attack has been threatened. The regime making the threats is unstable and unpredictable.

At no time has N. Korean waters, airspace or ground been violated by foreign military. N. Korea has not been threatened with invasion. Your unsupported complaints (real or imaginary) about secret conspiracies in the pentagon to find and fights wars as often as possible has little to do with the current events on the Korean peninsula.

The is demonstrable, because the efforts of the rest of the U.S. and the rest of the world have been on trying to prevent military action there.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. What's funny is you really don't believe there are people in the Pentagon who are into war.

[Gore1FL]

50. I am just waiting for you to identify them.

I didn't say they didn't exist. I doubt any are in power. I f they are, they are obviously ineffective based on the current policy in regards to N. Korea.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

83. Ask the contractors. They have them on speed dial.

[demosincebirth]

81. isn't it their job? the Pentagon, that is.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

84. That's why they aren't in charge...

We have civilian control of our military.

I wish North Koreans had the same.

[Flatulo]

20. No, but they do want to take food and fuel in return for not threatening to blow up the world.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

21. How else do you get someone's attention?

Appealing to humanity has proven to be a waste of time.

[Gore1FL]

24. Did they appeal to humanity before or after they attacked South Korea? n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

26. Ever hear of this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre

[PolitFreak]

27. Do you WORK for the DPRK?

Jesus, pal, wake up and smell the reality!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

30. LOL!!! No. I want a world at peace.

You don't get there with war.

[Gore1FL]

42. If that is true, why are you defending the rouge war-mongering nation

and attacking the ones trying to stop them from erupting in military action?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. I'm not "defending" North Korea. What makes you say that???

[Gore1FL]

45. You are making a false-equivalency to even out the blame between them and the rest of the world.

You are giving them a pass for war mongering while blaming unidentifiable forces in the U.S. government ready to pounce on any opportunity for a war, based on whim and conspiracy.

Re-read your posts.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. "Re-read your posts."

LOL!!! I'll let others do that and figure out which of us is into escalation.

[Gore1FL]

51. OK, I'm fine with that.

Based on other responses to your posts, I think I am winning, though.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

66. Uh huh,...like it's a "battle"....

[Gore1FL]

69. Of course it is.

And it's supported by a secret conspiracy in the pentagon made up of unknown soldiers not buried at Arlington, apparently.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

72. Actually, it's fueled by the need to find an enemy.

[Aquavit]

54. Not keeping score here...

but how many nations have North Korea attacked for no damned reason in the last ten years? By the same token, how many have the United States attacked for the same reason?

That said, I agree with the Russians here that everyone needs to keep a level head here and back away from the trigger. If both sides would just look at human history, they could tell that fighting is almost always the least effective way of gaining peace.

[Gore1FL]

71. It is true that all sides need to relax.

It is also true that there have been times in our nations history that we did not do the right thing.

In this particular instance, N. Korea seems to be the trouble maker.

[Gore1FL]

28. Yes. How does it relate to your argument?

There were atrocities in the Korean war therefore it is not North Korea's fault that they are threatening their neighbors with vaporization over 60 years later? I think I have lost track of what are you arguing at this point.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

31. My point is that they are exagerating their abilities AND THEY KNOW IT.

Those statements aren't for us or even the South Koreans. They're for their own people to make them look powerful.

[Gore1FL]

33. That is a likely a large part of.

It doesn't make it acceptable behavior. Nor does it make the United States an equal partner in the hyperbole.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

35. The US is poking at them with a stick....

This is the result.

[Gore1FL]

37. No they are not.

Suggesting that N. Korea not test rockets with unknown over its neighbors' airspace is not poking them with a stick.
Suggesting that N. Korea cease it's production of nuclear weapons is not poking them with a stick.
Suggesting that N. Korea respect national waters is not poking them with a stick.
Suggesting that N. Korea respect international waters is not poking them with a stick.
Preparing in the event that N. Korea's threats are actually real is not poking them with a stick.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

38. Flying planes that carry nukes and not telling them if nukes are aboard is provacative....

What would they have? A ten minute warning? If that? Everyone knows about stealth and cruise missiles that fly under radar.

BTW: Even if they HAVE a nuke they have no way to fire it.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised to hear their "nuke tests" are just caves packed with conventional explosives.

There were no radionuclides detected.

[Gore1FL]

40. We fly military aircraft all over the world

The only reason they are there is because of N. Korea's escalation.

N. Korea has nukes. They don't need to deliver it by missile do a lot of damage.

Your arguments are based on guessing, conjecture, conspiracy, and have become more and more untenable as we have progressed.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. We don't have the RIGHT to fly anywhere we want.

We have to ask permission to fly over another country.
Most of the world has given it because we haven't blown shit up,...until Bush and Drones.

Now people are asking questions.

One of those questions is the very concept of "peace through strength". Especially since there is no major power out there to oppose us.

Oh, and the kind of nuke they would have IF they have one weighs in the tons. Are you picturing a truck bomb or a really big catapult?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. The B-2 was over SK airspace

Under invitation of the SK government.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. I know. As a threat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Because we all know the US is rushing to war

Or more precisely the resumption of hostilities, like it did after the capture of the USS Pueblo, that was the well known flare up of the early 1960s, or the attack on the Blue House...did I mention the more recent war marches after the sinking of the Chaosan and the bombardment of a South Korean Island?

I don't remember any of these leading to the resumption of hostilities. Perhaps you do.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

58. I don't see that happening this time....

The overriding feeling seems to be, "How dare they!" and "Don't they know?"

I picture a cross border exchange with the result being people here screaming to bomb them into the stone age.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. If it leads to a resumption will be due to a series

Of miscalculations.

Though naval clashes on the Yellow Sea are quite possible at this point

[Spitfire of ATJ]

60. North Korea has a navy? There's probably more metal in the round we fire than the boat we hit.

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Which tells me you have no clue what you are trying to have an opinion on

Remember the sinking of the Chaosan? NK never admitted to it, it's believed to have been the handiwork of one of their diesel electric subs.

Yup, is appropriate here.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

63. Oh, come on. I treat this whole thing with the seriousness it deserves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. I am, they have both whiskey and Romeo class boats

With midget boats to boot.

I am sure so are those who could potentially be facing that

Granted, full out war...72 hours before that navy is no more, but I am not underestimating them.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. Mostly what they have is a couple of frigates and a bunch of subs that can't go very far....

72 hours is being optimistic.

I love the museum display of a PT boat from 1950 that claims it sunk a ship that never went to Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KoreanWar_NK_TB2.JPG

[nadinbrzezinski]

68. But you did not realize they had a navy

Now you do.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

70. That's not a "navy". That's a Coast Guard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Ok...whatever

Have a good life

[Spitfire of ATJ]

74. I will, because I don't freak out.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Who is freaking out?

At this point I hear from you derp. derp derp derp derp. derp derp derp derp. derp derp derp

[Spitfire of ATJ]

76. Really? Just because I don't think of NK as a threat?

[nadinbrzezinski]

79. You might have missed this

But they have a million artillery pieces aimed at Seul

Chances are, like every other time in the recent past, this will de escalate as soon as the spoiled brat thinks he got what he wanted...more food...talks with DC ain't happening.

People, not you obviously, who know better than you fear the "accidental war" as one scenario.

But hey, I read your exchanges above...you think the US wants a war in the Peninsula...

1,- we are at war at the Peninsula. This might be news to you, but armistice is not peace.

2.- they are a certain level of dangerous and nobody, outside perhaps the DPRK leadership, wants an actual war.

3.- Yellow Sea confrontations have happened in the past, with that coast guard...real people have died...on both sides.

But hey, derp, willful ignorance and conspiracy thinking ain't helping here.

Have an excellent day.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

82. I said there are people who want to make money on a conflict....

I'm not on their side. I'm not on OUR side.

I'm on the side of peace. It's been only six years since this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/17/world/asia/17cnd-korea.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Mention names

We'll wait

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Hmmm,...maybe I should suspect you...

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Maybe I should suspect you are well intended

But truly clueless of the subject at hand.

And I mean it in a good way. There is a lot of info on this over the WWW and academic journals. You might want to start with a basic history of the Korean War.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

94. I've already read up on it....

That was then, this is now. This isn't a proxy war. This is a place that has literally gone medieval under Songbun. It's surprising they could even build a rocket considering it takes major engineering. It's not like they could go to Home Depot for copper tubing, everything had to be fashioned. There aren't any factories pumping out rockets and jets. If what they have is taken out they've got no replacements available and no one to help them. They are alone in the world.

I half expect any time for some Neocon to claim Iran is on their side.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. For somebody who read on it

You still remain clueless.

Guess who is getting midget subs and other technologies? Yup, Iran

What should raise all kinds of alarms here is that the usual suspects (McCain fr example) are webby, webby quiet.

Yup, well intentioned, but clueless

I fear though that you are in some kind of fantasy land or alternate reality. I bid you permanent adieu.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

97. Sleep well, but if you hear a noise in your closet hold real still and don't breathe...

[Flatulo]

56. Good grief, have you ever raised a child? What did you do when they stomped their feet

and screamed when they couldn't get their way? Did you fold, and thereby teach them that bad behavior gets you what you want?

N. Korea is like a little, petulant child. They desperately cling to the world's most discredited economic system, a system that treats their leader like a God while the people starve, and a system that will never, ever be able sustain itself. If we send them food, they will eat the food and then be back with the threats the next time they get hungry. The people are too brainwashed to fight back and toss out this tyrant, so fuck them. Let them eat AK-47s.

Giving in to these fuckers just perpetuates the cycle. Sooner or later they will have intercontinental ballistic missiles, missiles that could strike anywhere in the USA. When that time comes, we won't be able to deny them their regular blackmail payments. What do we do then? Send them fuel when our own people are freezing their balls off?

Sooner or later we will have to come to grips with this problem. A solution has eluded every president since Eisenhower. But the one thing that has been proven again amd again to absolutely not work is to cave in to his demands.

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. One serious disagreement

They are not following the worlds most discredited economic system. They have not for at least 40 years, if not longer.

They might call it Marxist, or Stalinist, but Junche, which is a state religion, has precious little to do with anything Karl Marx wrote. (Remember that thing about Religion and Opium) or for that matter Stalinism.

When the regime finally falls and archives are opened, I think we will find something that truly defies a modern description. In my opinion, it has some in common with the French Ancién Regime, including the Sun King, and James Jones little happy camp...

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. Their economic system and their political system are a joke....

As is their bluster. It's like Baghdad Bob.

I don't say that we should "give in". I say that we should let their parents handle it.

Namely China and Russia,...which they're doing.

They claim the US government is coming to get them and are arming,...OMG!!! They're GUN NUTS!!!

[Flatulo]

88. It won't be a joke when they develop ICBMs and warheads small enough to place on them.

I don't think anyone has good ideas on how to prevent this from happening in the next five to ten years. But feeding them, or more accurately, feeding their military, which is where all foreign aid ends up, certainly won't slow them down any.

This is why I support the continued development of an ABM shield. It's not the Russians or Chinese we need to worry about, since MAD will deter them, but rogue states like DPRK and Iran.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. Do you HONESTLY believe we wouldn't see them doing that and take it out before launch?

[Flatulo]

91. Yes, I honestly believe we will do nothing. The DPRK can vaporize Seoul in one hour with

artillery fire. Those 28,000 Americans based in the South would be gone in the first day.

Any attack on the North would be met with the complete destruction of Seoul. War with the North would be unlike anything we've seen in our lifetimes. Think WWII, with hundreds of thousands of casualties in the first few days. Total, all-out war (non-nuclear).

That's why I think an ABM capability makes the most sense. And starving them in the hopes of regime collapse.

[ripcord]

100. If they don't want to be part of the world community

What is the the big deal with isolating them since it is what they want?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

103. Bingo....

We started opening relations with China with ping-pong.

Dennis Rodman goes there and everyone acts like it was treason but I say, ANYTHING that can cut through the crap is welcome.

[treestar]

101. Then they don't get any help from the rest of the world, right? nt

[Spitfire of ATJ]

102. To their own people they claim they don't need it....

Their diplomats say another thing. It's easy to point and scream at everything a political figure says but the real deals are done between reasonable people who see each other all of the time.

[demosincebirth]

78. Russia, has no credibility in my eyes.