Official: Boston bombing suspect 'sedated'

[SunSeeker]

Source: CNN.com

The surviving suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings suffered an injury to his throat and may not be able to talk, a federal official told CNN on Saturday, possibly hindering attempts by authorities to question him about a motive in the attack.
...
The official, who was briefed on Tsarnaev's condition, spoke on condition of anonymity.

Tsarnaev was in "serious but stable condition" and "not yet able to communicate yet," Massachusetts Gov. Deval Patrick told reporters during an impromptu briefing on Saturday.
...
Authorities have not publicly detailed the injuries sustained by the teen, but an official who has been briefed said Tsarnaev has been "intubated and sedated." The official also spoke on condition of anonymity.



Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/20/us/boston-attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[grasswire]

1. this guy may not survive

Sounds pretty serious, for sure.

[LisaL]

10. Doesn't sound like that at all.

He is in stable condition..

[Yo_Mama]

84. The first 24 hours is the most important

If he made it through that without crashing, now they have fluids in him, and he's on oxygen, and medicated he should start to heal.

As long as he has a tube down his throat, he'll be sedated.

It's a very good hospital and I am sure he is receiving excellent, excellent care. With police officers to guard him, because as soon as he wakes up he'll be dangerous again, and of course there is the chance that while he's vulnerable somebody might try to harm him.

[Purveyor]

2. "sedated"...I'm shocked!! /sarcasm off eom

[freshwest]

25. Yes, most people with a tube stuck down their throat or being operated on appreciate being sedated.

BTW, I agree with you, and they are treating as a patient who is innocent until proven guilty and may consider him mentally ill and undeserving of inhumane treatment. Doctors are there to treat all and not make judgment calls about the actions of those they are called to treat even in situations like this. I'm sure he will get the best of care, literally.

[mopinko]

91. double negatives don't always skim well.

Last edited Sun Apr 21, 2013, 03:48 PM - Edit history (1)

my bad.

[freshwest]

96. You misquoted me when you wrote: 'undeserving of humane treatment'

I wrote 'mentally ill and undeserving of inhumane treatment.'

Even that was partly in response to those who made hints the last few days he was or would be treated badly by authorities. That's not a given with me, but it may be with some who have found fault with the police.

They'll tend to him with all the care possible since that is one of their professional qualities, nor I did suggest any doctor or hospital in Boston (or hopefully anywhere) would be remotely 'inhumane.'

As far as being 'mentally ill', he wouldn't be in the normal sense or people that we know and care about personally, or that we advocate for getting the treatment they need; but psychiatrists will likely be employed to determine quite a few things about him in his defense.

And he was found with a mouth to the back of his neck wound - possibly self-inflicted. It was speculated in a news report posted here last night - that he attempted to commit suicide.

One of the definitions of a person requiring commitment for mental health reasons is being a danger to oneself or others despite having done what would be considered a criminal act. I and others have posted articles claiming he was under the influence of his brother, so much so that he did this act. I suspect his public defenders will use anything to get him off, as they are charged to do so, including an insanity defense.

Some would be relieved at such an outcome rather than assume a teenager was a cold-blooded killer. The evidence is damning, too much on video. It's been posted here that the authorities watched those repeatedly until they put together a sequence of events.

There will be the eye witness identification by Jeff Bauman, who watched the older brother set the bomb that took his legs off down next to him, but didn't realize what it was.

So would you 'care to phrase that a little more precisely, or is that what you meant to say?' to me, since you may have read it incorrectly?

Or is there some other issue you have in mind?

[kestrel91316]

97. BTW, many folks in the US and even on DU consider anyone they

believe guilty of murder to be undeserving of HUMANE treatment.

That whole thing in the Constitution about the presumption of innocence and the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment just seems to fly right past their pointy little heads.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

3. At least he isn't gonna rip out his tubes.

[Warpy]

8. Don't kid yourself

I've seen little old ladies gorked on every sedative out there and with four point restraints who managed to extubate themselves.

Being intubated feels awful. Most people will self extubate if they can and if the sedation is lightened at all between doses.

[FailureToCommunicate]

95. Sure could. Our premie twins did that a few times in the weeks they were in NICU

[defacto7]

4. In his serious but stable condition

I would guess the only thing that would kill him would be infection or something missed. If he were critical, that would be another story.

[ocpagu]

5. I really hope the authorities have more than a picture of two brothers in the street...

... as evidence to "justify" the treatment given to these suspects.

[itsrobert]

7. Are you serious?

Or just not paying attention?

[NYC Liberal]

9. Nah. It's not like they were leading the police on a chase in a stolen car

while flinging bombs back at them and firing hundreds of rounds of ammunition.

[LisaL]

11. Not like that at all.

[Trajan]

13. You mean the brothers admissions to the car owner

Who was carjacked and released isn't enough for you?

The fact that they apparently shot and killed an MIT School Officer ... doesn't mean anything?

The fact that they actually tossed a nearly identical pressure cooker bomb at officers three days after the initial blasts, in a different location, these facts haven't moved you? .... yeah ... I know: we all have a couple of those bombs around the house ... not definitive ...

Well ... we always have this - They could have told anybody and everybody they didn't do it ... they could have called police and pleaded their innocence ... They could have complied with police requests during their initial contact, and accepted arrest so they could clear their names ...

It is my understanding that video exists that shows them arriving at the bomb site with backpacks, and then shows them leaving the scene without those backpacks ... I haven't seen it, so I'm not really sure ...

Nobody is forcing you to believe it, but it seems unreasonable to deny these other, corresponding facts which point directly towards the culpability of these brothers ... You can ignore all that other stuff and believe what you want ... it's a free country ...

[ocpagu]

14. We need to be sure we know who are the intelectual authors of the crime...

... and if they are also the executors.

Killing the suspects is not the best way of solving the issue.

[Trajan]

26. I suppose you are simply uninformed

It is yet unknown exactly how the oldest brother died, but he was trading gunfire with police, as was his younger brother, and was tossing bombs at officers, who finally connected and wounded him ...

It is believed that the younger brother, in a bold ( and successful) gambit, gunned his vehicle, and ran over his own brother .. dragging him some 35 feet under the vehicle ....

It would be unfounded to say that the police have killed them ....

[MillennialDem]

32. I heard the trauma surgeon say the brother may have been fatally wounded by

shrapnel from the bomb he tossed.

[vlyons]

41. and they have the dead body of Tamerlan

[MADem]

65. To say nothing of the swell dash cam video of Younger Brother running over his older brother after

older brother charged the cops in a suicide move....

This kid doesn't have to say a word, and he could be convicted on available evidence alone.

His only hope of spending the rest of his life in a supermax, able to write letters home and get the occasional phone call, instead of being put to death, is if he blows the whistle on the who-what-when-where-why of this terrorist misadventure he embarked upon with his dead sibling.

[longship]

16. Do you mean other than one being apprehended on the scene, regretfully dead?

And the other hiding in a boat after all residents in a large area were voluntarily abiding by the shelter in place plea by local officials? BTW, he had wounds, putatively from the gunfight the previous night.

You can spin this differently, but don't expect a lot of sympathy for any alternative yarns from the people who were on the scene, including those who voluntarily sheltered in place.

[ocpagu]

18. I think the habit of having a established modus operandi...

... in which suspects end up being killed before a conclusion by official investigation and a trial is dangerous.

[longship]

21. Word has it he was run over by his brother.

There are forensic photos on the Intertubes of his dead body. I choose not to view such death porn. But a pathologist may be able to make a probable conclusion.

In the end, we must trust the system as it is. Thankfully today's Information Age has assisted in the remarkably fast apprehension of two bad dudes, one of them alive. And make absolutely no mistake about it, alive was the very highest priority.

These are the things that have so many people across the nation celebrating this resolution, in spite of the utter mayhem these guys caused.

[freshwest]

30. Poster is now describing a false flag event, not what you're talking about.

'...habit of having a established modus operandi' is pretty obvious this is from that point of view, and the target of the accusation is the government itself. So I won't bother with it anymore.

The police were ordered to bring them back alive - that was the established goal and announced before the younger brother was captured. And they did exactly that.

This individual will get all the legal protection any of us would, the 48 hour exception is essentially over and he will get a good defense. I suspect he will not get the death penalty no matter how the trial turns out.

The police have been ordered to make sure no hot head gets near him to do him harm while being treated in the hospital. He may turn out to be mentally unstable, I found this article about him today:

http://gawker.com/5995132/did-tamerlan-tsarnaev-pressure-his-younger-brother-into-terrorism?utm_source=gawker.com&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=recirculation

The two brothers have a reputation both public and private, they were not unknown and not unpopular.

[ocpagu]

33. Am I?

Really?

[longship]

37. You apparently up to something here.

What are you trying to say?

Take all the time and space you need.

[freshwest]

42. Good for your patience, I'm done with him.

Been listening to the CT stuff for two days here on DU.

[longship]

45. I may be too. But I still can't help calling him out.

I still have no idea what he's trying to say. Certainly hasn't made his position very clear, has he?

Nota bene: I only presume it's a male. My humble apologies if it isn't.

Can hardly wait for a lucid reply.

[freshwest]

48. Lucid is generous. Gender doesn't matter, better than saying 'it.' That would be rude.

I don't expect an honest reply from said anonymous poster so I won't be bothering. Good luck. I'll read whatever you have to say, but reading the posts here, the language is what I said it is. In my humble opinion, as I've been reading this for several days here on DU. One thread in V & MM was hidden, although it was not alerted by me and the poster got a thorough roasting.

The themes are all the same, that the government is lying, there is some alternative plan, and if challenged, they just call you a sheeple who needs to wake up to The Truth©!

Just the same as Icke and Jones and the Paulbots yell about. Tired of all that stuff, it's lazy, malicious and only exciting to the ones who need to get off on drama and playing smartypants.

[ocpagu]

50. Oh, sorry.

I had know idea you knew me (the "it&quot so well. Where did we meet again? When did we have any conversation about any subject before today?

...

...

Never?

Who the hell you think you are to make such a pathetic judgement on a person you don't even know?

[freshwest]

58. I didn't call you IT. I was explaing my reason for saying HE.

[longship]

51. Good for you, Freshwest.

I decided earlier this week that I would defend. I have posted a couple of OPs the last day, something I don't often do. But I am fed up with the lunacy here. Both the "lockdown militia law" and "they're gonna Dorner them" types. In spite of both of them being falsified by the facts, we still read their spewage here.

Thanks for your posts.

[freshwest]

61. I am so tired of the CT talk, it is not discussion. It's like talking to a teabagger.

I read a sig line from a poster stating out front that they were using their other account - it's hard to know except by style who one is talking to.

The furious retorts or refusal to answer usually happens when a person is pressed to discuss, no matter the effort and time one puts into it to give information, or get an understanding. It's very frustrating.

You are correct some are trying to give this situation the Dorner treatment, when it has been anything but. As to the false flag stories being posted - I'm out of patience with the Sandy Hook and Aurora truthers who are not at all honest in their zealotry.

I will not waste any more time or effort trying to reason with that on this subthread.

[ocpagu]

62. "I will not waste any more time or effort trying to reason with that on this subthread."

Good to know, since you are the only person that brought CT to this thread...

[ocpagu]

46. Well...

Why did they do that? Did they act alone? Were they the intellectual authors? Were they acting for domestic reasons? Are international organizations involved? Are domestic extremist organizations involved? Why targgeting civilians? Which group they intended to terrorize?

If you know all the answers already, please share.

If you think the suspects have nothing to add, "case closed, let's move on", I don't have a problem either. I just don't agree with this take and don't bother about people who like to force their opinions on others and can't accept constructive criticism.

[Gore1FL]

90. Who said either?

The one they managed to take alive is still alive. They used non-lethal force to take him. He gets a lawyer, He gets a trial, he gets questioned.

Are you under the impression everyone is dead?

[ocpagu]

109. He's in a serious condition...

... entubed, sedated, and with a wound in his throat.

Looks like he can't cooperate that much, doesn't it?

[karynnj]

112. At the moment, his condition does make talking impossible

However, the reason he is entubed and sedated is NOT to keep him quiet. It is to safe his miserable life. In the hospital, or later in jail, the wound will heal and his condition will improve from stable. It is possible that he will never be able to speak - without a lot of reconstruction - if that is even possible. However, there are other means of communication. He can answer the question by WRITING THE answer. He did do well enough in a highly regarded high school to get a scholarship to college.

Doctors do not sedate or entube people for no medical reason.

The fact is that they likely could have killed him easily - from the helicopter or the police on the ground. They went out of their way to take him alive - out of principle and for the very reasons you speak of.

[Gore1FL]

123. The human body heals.

He is in stable condition. He is being treated medically. It is unclear what you want to be happening instead.

[kestrel91316]

99. Fess up, Alex Jones.

[ocpagu]

108. Wow...

... so I'm Alex Jones because I prefer suspects to be arrested, investigated and judged other than killed...

Yep, this is making each time more and more sense.

This thread almost looks like a medieval mob lynching... "there is a person who believes suspects shouldn't be killed. Burn him!"

[karynnj]

113. He was arrested rather than killed

As to his brother, what part of being in a gun battle with the police and throwing IEDs at the police do you not understand?

If you read any SANE thread Friday night, most posters were VERY happy that the suspect was captured alive. I think most of consider that was not an option with the older brother. (Especially as he also was run over by his darling younger brother.)

[vlyons]

43. I expect him to be convicted and sentenced to death

by a jury that will decide the sentence. I'm ok either way if he gets life in prison, or death.

[Gore1FL]

92. I expect that, but I hope he rots in prison instead.

It's cheaper. IMO, prison is worse. I'd rather die than spend 70 years behind bars.

[mimi85]

103. There is is no death penalty in Massachusetts. n/t

[marions ghost]

70. "we must trust the system"

please don't ask us to do that. No, we must not trust a broken system. Only parts still work. We are careening along in a badly rusted vintage Reaganmobile being driven by the Corporate and Congressional Rethuglicons.

We can only trust ourselves to analyze the facts we are given as best we can. We can only trust people within the system who have some integrity left. I agree with the content of what you said. I'm just arguing with the blanket way you put this "trust the system."

We the citizens have to provide the demand for truth. Question everything. Group analysis and consensus--not trust. That good old fashioned blanket trust gets us in trouble.

[kestrel91316]

100. "Question everything"???? Really? Because no facts exist?

Sigh. Do you question the physics of your automobile every time you turn the key in the ignition? Or do you accept that internal combustion exists and will get you where you are going.

I am fond of questioning authority, particularly in politics, but I have never used it to guide my every step in the world. I'd go nuts.

[marions ghost]

117. Sigh?

My car is not the same thing as the US government. It's a little more accessible. You don't need to be so condescending. I'm not a five year old.

I never said not to look at the facts. What I did say is that you cannot trust "the facts" unless there is research, review and consensus. When we are given the facts by an unreliable media and an unreliable govt, it is our job to assess them. And we do a pretty good job, but it's exhausting. I'm saying DO look at the facts, always. Make sure you have the facts though.

I think that we as a society ARE being driven nuts by having to research everything and not being able to take anything at face value. But I don't believe denial helps anything and I stand by my statement--question everything. It's the most sensible way to go in a dysfunctional society. More than that--I think it is critical to real freedom and democracy, which currently we do not have in America.

Question the media (Fox & Murdoch & now Koch)
Question your local & state government
Question the medical system
Question the legal system (it's a real mess)
Question business & banking practices (surely everyone agrees there)
Question what you are consuming, eating & applying to your body
Question what comes into your inbox
Question what your kids are exposed to
Question what's in your air and in pipes running near your house

Etc etc--I could go on.......... I stand by my statement. Continually question and don't take anything for granted. That is not a radical statement given what we have been through in the last fifteen years. To be vigilant is something we should NOT have to do. But--as unprotected consumers--it is the safest way to go. And it is the only way we citizens can have any power. Everything is stacked against us. Forget the rhetoric. When the chips are down, all we have to rely on is people who have proven their integrity. You cannot assume integrity exists in anyone.

I don't think this is a particularly odd point of view, deserving of put-downs.

[ocpagu]

118. + 1,000,000

Thank you.

[marions ghost]

122. no problem

[MrSlayer]

17. Wow.

[ocpagu]

19. I see...

Sus-pect

noun
6.
a person who is suspected, especially one suspected of a crime, offense, or the like.

Sus-pect

verb

1. to believe to be guilty, false, counterfeit, undesirable, defective, bad, etc., with little or no proof: to suspect a person of murder.

[MrSlayer]

22. Murdering a police officer and throwing bombs at them isn't enough for you?

Could they have been innocent people that just happened to have the same sort of bombs used at the marathon and a willingness to kill cops to escape capture for crimes they didn't commit?

It's not impossible but we're going to have to set the improbability drive to two to the power of two hundred and seventy-six thousand to one against for it to be reality.

[ocpagu]

23. All the information is very recent.

There wasn't enough time to establish a deep investigation. And I'm not saying they are innocent - I'm saying we don't know enough. We know practically zero about their motivation. One of them is now dead, the other in a serious condition.

[MrSlayer]

28. Yeah we know nothing about their motivation but I think everyone is damn sure they're the perps.

The one dude assassinated a cop and they were both shooting it out with them. What were the police supposed to do? Just let them go? You have to shoot back. I think it's reprehensible to be criticizing the way it was handled or implying the police were too heavy handed. These weren't OWS people, they were dangerous terrorists and murderers.

[Gore1FL]

53. He gets a trial. What is your beef?

The first one was killed. *If* it was the result of a police bullet, it was likely due to the fact that he was shooting at them. There are are different stories out there, so we don't actually know if police gunfire killed him or not. They have a right to respond with deadly force to protect themselves in such a situation. The goal is to take people alive. That is not always possible. They did a masterful job in getting one of them.

We don't know everything, you are correct. Law enforcement is privy to a lot more of the details. If they were trying to kill him yesterday, they wouldn't have used non-lethal force to get him out of the boat. You seem to be jumping to the conclusion that this whole was based only on the released pictures and short video. That is simply not the case.

[ocpagu]

63. I fear the aftermath.

I think there will be consequences for this. Immigrants are already afraid of police taking a more aggressive approach, and I believe that progressist changes in the immigration reform will be at risk due to this. I think the fact we don't know exactly what happened could be used by opportunists - in the same way the attacks of a decade ago were also used by opportunists to affect groups that were not related to it at all.

[Gore1FL]

78. "We don't know" is different than "The FBI doesn't know."

They didn't arbitrarily pick two guys out of a crowd and gun them down. They identified 2 suspects, tried to take both alive. They failed to do so on the one who had a bomb he was throwing blow up in his hand and was dragged 35 feet by an SUV driven by his brother.

The one they managed to take alive gets a trial. This allows even more facts to come out. To suggest that we shouldn't go after criminal suspects when they proactively shoot cops because it will make immigrants afraid is dubious reasoning.

[ocpagu]

80. huh?

"To suggest that we shouldn't go after criminal suspects when they proactively shoot cops because it will make immigrants afraid is dubious reasoning."

Are you serious that is what you understand from everything that I said?

Ok, I give up.

[Gore1FL]

89. Yes, that's what I got from what you said.

You seem to be confusing other people on this thread as well.

[ocpagu]

104. Then, I can't help you.

n/t

[Gore1FL]

125. Sure you can.

Post what you are trying to say. Take all the words you need.

No one else seems to be understanding you, either. I recommend providing specific step-by-step scenario that you believed really happened that no one else is wise enough to see.

[ocpagu]

126. Well...

I'm not sure I can be clearer... So, that may sound as rude... but let me try:

1 - I will not provide a specific "step-by-step scenario" about what I "believe really happened" and that "no one else is wise enough to see", for a simple reason: I've said like a dozen times already in this very thread and since my first post that WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED.

2 - The fact that we don't know exactly what happened is the reason why I'm worried with the fact that one suspect has been killed and the other has been pronounced as UNABLE TO HELP US UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED.

3 - Such an obscure scenario may give some individuals the chance of advancing agendas to targget groups not related to the Boston bombings - as already happened with Iraq in 2003. And the war mongers never sleep.

Now... I don't know how difficult it really is to understand these three points... I assume that not difficult at all... unless your interest is putting words in my mouth in order to make me "advocate" for something that I never brought to conversation.

[Gore1FL]

128. There is nothing in this scenario that is remotely suspect.

We know the first one died in a gun battle he started. The second one was captured alive and treated like any other patient as far as the medical professionals are concerned.

There is no need to try find something nefarious in every event. There is no there there. No one is calling for a war. There was no credible accusation that too much force was used against the shooting bomb-thrower who was killed. There is no real criticism to be had.

If you have specific evidence that something is actually amiss, I'd be more than happy to see it. If you could even point out one thing that seemed fishy (other than Iraq), I be happy to see that too.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. For the second time today...

I will respond to a post by saying " oh, for fuck's sake"

[freshwest]

27. Are you saying Bauman lied about the face of the man he saw put the bomb at his feet?

And all the video and photos, both public and private, of an event watched around the world with tens of thousands of people involved was all faked?

[ocpagu]

31. No.

Have no idea of how you came to that conclusion.

[freshwest]

39. From your posts on this thread. That one read:

5. I really hope the authorities have more than a picture of two brothers in the street... ... as evidence to "justify" the treatment given to these suspects.

They have a lot more evidence than that, including the word of the eye witness. And you did not answer at to whether that man's word was not enough along with all the video.

Your use of the word in quotations marks "justify" indicates you feel that something unjust was done. The police exchanged gunfire; they used non-lethal means to get the second brother; and they quickly rendered aid to him.

I don't think there is anything that needs to be "justified."

[ocpagu]

44. You make a lot of assumptions.

I use quotation marks in "justify" because before a final investigation I can't assume lethal force being used against a suspect is just. It may have been necessary, I don't know. I'd rather them having a plan b to get the suspects alive.

There's nothing we know so far about their motivations and if they planned this or were just executing it.

[longship]

49. Do you mean other than Lethal force in the face of a dead policeman?

And bombs being thrown at you? And bullets being shot at you?

Do you mean other than that?

How would you react? Would you stand down?

They threw a fucking pressure cooker bomb at them, the same kind of device which started this week of mayhem. Thankfully, it malfunctioned.

Again! What the fuck would you do?

[ocpagu]

52. Ok, understand it as you want. I'm tired.

My point is: I don't like suspects being killed before investigation and trials. Period.

How some people understand this as "I'm lunatic teabagger advocating for the involvement of Obama in a conspiracy theory to kill Bostonians in a illuminati sacrifice" is beyond my compreheension.

[longship]

54. I certainly did not say anything like that.

I merely requested that you put your point into cogent and understandable terms. Otherwise, you come off as somebody sniping from the sidelines, being a nuisance rather than a good DU citizen.

If you have an opinion, state it clearly and respectfully. Don't stand off interjecting half-formed posts with no content to derail a thread.

Think it out. That's all. Otherwise, somebody's going to call you out on it.

Any position worth taking, is one worth defending. If you can't do the latter, maybe you should rethink the former. Got it?

[ocpagu]

57. Well...

I honestly think I was quite objective and clear since my first post.

[longship]

59. Evidence to the contrary notwithstanding?

I am done here.

[ocpagu]

60. Which evidence?

I see opinions. It looks like you and others expected me to have a undeclared agenda for my remarks first hand. At least that's what I understand from you when you say that "I'm up to something here" and the other poster saying I'm " describing a false flag event" (???!!!!) - without, of course, any evidence to even imply such a thing. If you are departing from this pre-conceived point and you don't even accept the possibility that I'm bringing - that my point here is precisely the only point I've talked about - and try to make me fit in a preconceived niche... I don't see any point in keeping oing, indeed.

So, good night.

[Gore1FL]

93. Neither do the police.

That's why the tried to take them alive. Do you think cops like to be in shoot outs?

I don't know what your argument is, actually. You aren't being very clear.

[ocpagu]

107. March, 2003

72% of Americans Support War Against Iraq

http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

The majority can be wrong. An entire nation paid with innocent blood because of opportunists used a terrorist attack to advance their agenda.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, even after what happened... then I'm sorry.

[karynnj]

119. Obama's and the Massachusetts and Boston officials did not act at all like Bush did

All of them spoke of the community and of the need to get the people who did this -- and, in their case, they meant exactly the people "who did this". The LE could not have been more disciplined or more in communication with the community. The fact that Bostonians flooded the streets cheering them on and many posting here through the day -saying that they were in agreement with the way it was handled means something.

Do you have any idea of what these two guys did late Thursday and early Friday? If the police didn't do everything they did, the questions would be about their competence. Imagine they did NOT close the subway and the 19 year old with one of the remaining ieds ran into the subway and exploded it - creating an additional tragedy. As it was they killed a policeman and seriously injured another cop. Do you realize that in addition to the ieds etc found in their appartment, the man knew how to make more. Buying more pressure cookers, nails, gun powder etc would not be hard. Everything made it harder for him to flee and hide.

To argue that the capture of one terrorist and the killing of the other criminal while he shot at the police (ignore the fact that they were terrorists) for what they did and to keep them from doing more is equivalent to starting a war based on lies is ridiculous.

Go ahead pride yourself as someone too pure to agree with what most people see as good law enforcement. Don't bother to consider that had you been in the next wrong place to be had these men escaped, you would want those same LE guys to protect you. (If you doubt there would have been more, consider they had more munitions made and did not take credit for the attack.)

[Gore1FL]

124. I can give a lot of examples of the majority being wrong.

That isn't a reasonable argument.

You are just assuming everyone is lying without plausible reasons as to why that might be, how it would be accomplished, and to what benefit.

They arrested him.
He will get his day in court.

[freshwest]

56. Nothing that hasn't been on TV, the net, papers and statements from family,

friends, public and private records. Nothing. You have either not been paying attention to this or are shining us on here. I'm not saying the guy is guilty in the classic sense as there are many defenses that can be made by his lawyers.

You say that:

I use quotation marks in "justify" because before a final investigation I can't assume lethal force being used against a suspect is just. It may have been necessary, I don't know. I'd rather them having a plan b to get the suspects alive.

The lethality has been described to you, they were firing back as they fired at police and threw bombs. The younger brother ran over the older brother with a getaway car. The police were not the only witnesses to these events, an entire neighborhood was looking and listening, as well as live television coverage which I listened to.

Your charging lethal force being used when it was not said to be. It was not even equal force, the police only had guns but the two brothers had guns and more than one kind of explosives. The police were ordered and did bring in the second brother alive. There was order for nor was a standard of lethal force in effect, or the second brother would be dead now. They did have a 'plan b' and used it.

There's nothing we know so far about their motivations and if they planned this or were just executing it.

Their family and friends say differently. More are coming forward. Their family even called law enforcement a few years back because they were suspicious of the older brother getting into radical groups. His youtube page for the last few years spoke of violent jihadism. The younger brother was said to be heavily influenced by him, despite being well liked. He had made failing grades in classes for a few semesters. The older brother was bothered by being refused full citizenship because of a domestic violence charge, and his uncle claiming he was going off the deep end with religion and refusing to take responsiblity for his own failings. If none of those are motivations to you. I've given you more than enough informatiuon, but you will not listen. What was done was not only just but legal, and the brother in custody is being treated with more humanity than he would have been in other countries. I am glad.

EOM.

[John2]

64. I'm not the OP you are

talking to, but some of your comments seems to reference my statements when it comes to the government. If you blindly trust the Government, then that is your decision to make, but every American citizen does not. I'm definitely one of them. I don't have anything to hide either. I just wonder if others can make the same claims pushing the government line?

So you are going to sit here and state there are no political agendas push by some people working for the government after Iraq? That includes false intelligence reports? Those are bold statements I'm willing to confront and will not cower from. It has nothing to do with being a smarty pants either. It has more to d o with standing up for your position and not being afraid to speak up. If someone wants to try tactics to vilify me, I assure you, I'm not the type to run and hide. I support any Poster that wants to freely give their honest opinion.

Why don't you answer these questions, since you have answers. What evidence does the Massachusetts police have that the two suspects were sent here to kill people and what evidence did they have the two brothers had military training at the time they made such statements to the Media. Those statements were clearly made after I stated, there was no evidence of it at the time. The next thing you know, the police comes out and makes statements to the public insinuating there was.

Now you have information, they were surveilling one of the brothers all along and he might have been associated or gotten training with some Terrorist group while in Russia. You also got certain Republican senators wanting to categorize an American citizen, an enemy combatant. So are you still going to take the position, some in the government doesn't have an agenda?

It is very valuable this guy is alive, and the police responsible for it, did a great job. And I hope he is tried in open court for all to see if he survives. I'm through with secrecy, because honestly, I don't trust some people in this Government, which seems to concern some people. Well, I'm sorry they feel that way.

[marions ghost]

73. I'm with you on that John2

See my post #70 re. trusting the system

We have to be careful claiming we know exactly what happened at this point. There are indicators but not proven facts. A lot of speculation based on some degree of known fact. I think it's clear the brothers are the perps of the bombing, but there are still unknowns. After what we've seen this week from the media, caution is in order here.

[magical thyme]

67. welcome back from your week-long wilderness vacation...

or coma...or wherever you've been

Let's see:

1. Store security video of white hat suspect #2 dropping backpack at bomb site.

2. Eye witness testimony of survivor, who first described and then ID'd suspect #1 from photos, which suspect looked him straight in the eye and dropped the backpack right next to him 2 1/2 minutes before it exploded and blew off survivor's legs.

3. suspects ID'd by carjacking victim whom they held for 30 minutes and told that they're "the Boston Marathon bombers"

4. suspects found in stolen car following car chase by police, during which chase they fling pressure cooker bombs randomly into the street, subsequent to convenience store robbery and carjacking.

5. Surrounded, suspect #1 gets out of stolen car wearing suicide vest and starts walking toward police shooting at them, before they shot him to the ground. Suspect #2, on seeing brother on the ground being cuffed, drives through the pileup and runs over suspect #1's face to escape.

6. suspect #2 found hiding in backyard boat, engages in shootout with police before finally surrendering.

Yeah, hope they have more evidence. Looking pretty flimsy so far

[joshcryer]

74. I dunno. Sounds iffy at best.

Would be hard to prosecute.

[hedgehog]

94. You forgot 2.5 - suspect shot an MIT police officer to death for

reasons unknown.

[magical thyme]

114. yikes. my bad. well, there goes the case! nt

[ocpagu]

116. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014461831

"Case closed"?

[magical thyme]

120. a bullet to the throat won't stop him from writing or typing

which he will be able to do once he's off the sedation. He won't be intubated forever.

Serious condition within 2 days of being apprehended is pretty good. They'll be able to question him eventually unless he codes.

[ocpagu]

121. We'll see.

n/t

[FarPoint]

68. Yea...they most certainly do have

plenty of hard evidence...

You apparently just picked up on this story....

[NutmegYankee]

85. Oh, you mean other than them hurling bombs at the police?

One of which was just like that used at the Marathon bombings?

[Codeine]

87. Here we fucking go again.

[ocpagu]

106. March, 2003

72% of Americans Support War Against Iraq

http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

The majority can be wrong. An entire nation paid with innocent blood because of opportunists used a terrorist attack to advance their agenda.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, even after what happened... then I'm sorry.

[kestrel91316]

98. Have you been in a coma this week?

[ocpagu]

105. March, 2003

72% of Americans Support War Against Iraq

http://www.gallup.com/poll/8038/seventytwo-percent-americans-support-war-against-iraq.aspx

The majority can be wrong. An entire nation paid with innocent blood because of opportunists used a terrorist attack to advance their agenda.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, even after what happened... then I'm sorry.

[karynnj]

110. The police started the chase because they hijacked a car

They would have followed ANYONE who did that even if they never had a traffic ticket or even school detention before that. The police also learned that they had killed a cop at MIT. Then the men threw explosives out of the car at the police and were in a gun fight with them. Even if they had nothing to do with the Boston Marathon - these actions would have been more than enough to do all that followed.

However, they had more evidence than the photo stream. They had an eyewitness - one who lost both legs who saw one the bags left with a bomb set to go off in minutes - which unfortunately it did. Add to that, the 2 men told the man whose car was highjacked that they were the ones who bombed the Marathon.

It is true, that legally they are innocent until proven guilty, but the evidence is damning - and "the treatment" was in all cases in response to what they were doing at the moment of the "treatment".

[TwilightGardener]

6. No way they would allow someone with a bullet wound to the neck or throat NOT to be intubated--

or trached--they're not going to risk the airway. And with intubation comes sedation, otherwise you'd be very uncomfortable and yank it out. Assuming he's had surgery for his injuries, and suffered no organ damage from extreme blood loss/low volume, he will probably recover OK, is my guess. He would be in ICU in his state.

[Warpy]

12. The kidneys are the most commonly affected

and the damage is completely reversible, although temporary dialysis is often required, usually through a femoral or subclavian vas-cath. Other organ damage is reversible with no treatment, just continued support of blood pressure.

[TwilightGardener]

15. Yep, acute tubular necrosis, from fuzzy nursing memory--

Youth and health are on his side.

[MADem]

66. To say nothing of the staff of Beth Israel-Deaconess. If you've got to be hurt, that's as good a

place as any. I think he will recover sufficiently to face justice.

He has a choice--help the process and earn some measure of forgiveness as a consequence, or stand fast and fry. It will be interesting to see which way he rolls.

[TwilightGardener]

77. I'll bet he doesn't cooperate. Just my hunch.

His parents don't seem normal, they're insisting he was framed. He might try that bullshit, if he does talk.

[MADem]

83. That's a quick ticket to lethal injection, if that's the case. His father is saying that the kid

should tell the whole truth, though....it's Momma who is playing the "Ma Barker" (as some clever wag noted here the other night) "Mah boys is innocent!!" role.

[kestrel91316]

102. Ditto. IMHO, Russians and their next door ethnic neighbors are

notoriously uncooperative, stubborn, and masters of denialism. He'll blame everyone else for his problems, with Mom and Dad egging him on every step of the way.

[marions ghost]

72. yes-- this is the situation

he has a reasonable chance of recovery judging from this report.

[sigmasix]

24. being intubated isnt pleasant

Intubation often accompanies sedation. I wish someone could have interrupted the destruction of this young man's soul. Sometimes the inplaccable evils at work in this world are almost insurmountable. Then I look at my daughters and am reminded of the overwhelming power of love and humanity to right wrongs and propogate liberty.

Fuck the boston marathon bombers.
Fuck terrorists like the NRA.
Fuck Al Queda
Fuck Teabagger terrorists

This is OUR world- not the world of fear mongers, conspiracy theory ideologues or racist terror toting teabaggers.
They have been, and remain on, the wrong side of history. The criminally wealthy continue to underwrite terrorists and thier training as part of the undeclared class war the wealthy are conducting with the hope of eliminating the combined power of the people to come together and stop the evil acts the criminally wealthy commit.
But this young man and his brother bought into the lies that seperate us- fundamentalism and partisan paranoid conspiracy theory taught as legitimate political and religious narratives and discourse. (by the way, this form of "history as conspiracy theory"-instigated and refined in modern Islamofascist terror schools- teaching is fast becoming the latest in American right wing media-the Blaze- and fundamentalist neo-Christian bigot and hate speach.
One day fundies, teabaggers, islamofascists and racists will be taught about in obscure history courses under the heading "Failed attempts to destroy human liberty and the violent, twisted sociopaths behind them." Personal profiles of Osamma Bin Laden, Glenn Beck and the NRA board of directors will be used as examples of extreme evil and it's agents.

[freshwest]

29. K & R right here. Wish you would make an OP of that post.

[Incitatus]

129. +1. I think a lot of people don't understand that intubation often requires sedation

and we may be talking about serious injury (bullet damage) to his throat. Of course, the news article focuses more on the most likely required sedation and some conspiracy people will automatically jump on that saying he is being intentionally silenced. I don't work in the medical field, but I do know people who do. And this isn't really the kind of thing the cops can just say and do. There will be numerous doctors and nurses involved in his treatment, obviously there are laws preventing them from discussing his treatment, but I don't see authorities making up lies about his condition or a sedation for intubation being unrealistic.

+1 on the rest of your post as well, I thought the sedation aspect did need a little more explanation for some people.

[Riftaxe]

34. May this be the last thing he hears

before sobering and answering some rather damned difficult questions.

Godless western imperialism while not at it's best, darn near the apex...but then again, i am favorable to the Ramones.

[longship]

35. I would bet he was bandaged and maybe transfused, too.

So how does this rate as important news. The standard of care is not subject to law enforcement oversight or, thankfully, the public's.

I want this guy to come to grips with justice but I also want him to be treated as any patient would be. That's what a physician's oath says should be done.

Do not criticize or second guess those ethics. Please.

[SunSeeker]

38. This is the first disclosure I saw that he has neck injuries.

The importance of the story is that it provides information that suggests this guy won't be able to talk any time soon. It was not any sort of critique of the medical treatment he was getting.

[longship]

40. I heard it at DU the night he was captured.

I know that it was a chaotic night. People miss things. But multiple reports, too.

Sorry, no cite.

[SunSeeker]

47. Heard what? I saw no stories specifying he had neck injuries until now.

[OhioChick]

79. It was reported yesterday, possibly the day before

"Tsarnaev suffered at least two bullet wounds — including one to his neck — before he was arrested in Watertown, CBS News security analyst John Miller said Saturday night."

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2013/04/20/cbs-news-dzhokhar-tsarnaev-may-have-attempted-suicide-before-capture/

[SunSeeker]

82. Thanks for letting us know.nt

[shanti]

86. right

one to his neck and one to his leg/thigh. i remember it because they mentioned both wounds being close to major arteries.

[lexw]

36. The only reason I want that jerk to live is so they can get they whys and whos out of him.

Whenever I look at all those nice people standing in front of him and his jack-off-of-a-brother, with all their limbs and lives intact, I get sickened.

I hope he suffers long and hard—and I hope his brother suffered as well.
Their parents and relatives need to shut their pie holes and crawl away.

[John2]

76. Why do you want him to live?

His brother and he are the obvious killers. Their motives may have nothing to do with anybodyelse's decision. The brother is dead, I doubt that satisfaction will suffice some people's gratification. What he did was wrong and he should pay for it, but the difference from me and you, I get no gratification out of someone suffering. I have the same feelings with Muslim kids being innocently killed also. They are all victims of decisions made by adults. Children aren't born with hate, they get that from adults. Whatever hatred is spun, gets the same product. You get hatred in return, and it becomes an endless cycle.

[lexw]

101. Good point. I wouldn't want to watch anyone suffer...but these kinds of people sicken me.

So I was just blabbering out my frustration.
Thx again.

[delrem]

55. Hamid Karzai seeks to curb CIA operations in Afghanistan

President believes battle in which 10 children and a US agent died was fought by illegal militia working for spy agency

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/apr/19/hamid-karzai-curb-cia-afghanistan-operations

"Bob Woodward in his 2010 book Obama's Wars described a 3,000-strong Afghan militia working for the CIA, and Faizi said the Afghan government had little information about the teams. "There is a lack of clarity about their numbers and movement," he said when asked how many men the CIA had on their payroll, or where these large teams might be based.

Woodward said the unofficial commando units were known as counter-terrorism pursuit teams, and described them as "a paid, trained and functioning tool of the CIA", authorised by President George W Bush."

oh well... 10 children here, 15 there... just how long has the US been in Afghanistan fighting, uh, al-qaeda??? How many kids killed?
no matter. no big deal. nothing to see here, folks.

[sheabutter170]

69. he may have tried to shoot himself

the picture of him in hospital on Reddit show a huge wound on his neck, and someone said he tried to shoot himself in the mouth so it must have exited his neck. He also has ear damage from flares, with ear plugs. Not hearing or speaking, he may not be able to communicate for a while.

[smirkymonkey]

71. I really hope he recovers soon and can tell us something.

He is our only hope for an explanation. BTW, Welcome to DU!

[hrmjustin]

115. Welcome to DU sheabutter170!

[mvd]

127. Welcome to DU

My heart goes out to the victims of this horrific tragedy and I hope he goes to prison for a long time while being able to help authorities with motive/possible connections.

[rox63]

75. If you were intubated and seriously wounded, you'd want to be sedated

Have much experience with intubated patients, it is very unpleasant. Non-sedated intubated patients are a danger to themselves.

[blackspade]

81. Here's hoping that he recovers....

and can stand trial in our civilian courts.

The whole proceeding should be transparent.

[Codeine]

88. Breaking News!! Standard medical procedures being followed!!

This just in; suspect has vital signs being monitored!!

What fucking passes for news these days. . .

[SunSeeker]

111. That was not the point of the story.

As stated in the article, the fact that he had a neck wound and necessitated intubation, and therefore sedation, means we won't be getting any statements out of him any time soon. This could be a problem if they acted with support of a group that intends on continuing with attacks in the United States. Fortunately, it looks like we are getting a lot of cooperation from Russia, including the sharing of intelligence on Chechen terror groups.