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Bosonic

(3,746 posts)
Sun May 19, 2013, 10:27 AM May 2013

Syrian army, Hezbollah attack rebels in border town: opposition

Source: Reuters

Syrian troops supported by Hezbollah militants launched an offensive to retake a major town near Lebanon from rebels on Sunday, the heaviest fighting yet involving Lebanese armed group, opposition activists said.

At least 32 people were killed when rebel fighters clashed with mechanized Syrian army units and Hezbollah guerillas in nine points in and around the town of Qusair, 10 km (six miles) from the border with Lebanon's Bekaa valley, they said.

Speaking from Qusair, activist Hadi Abdallah said Syrian warplanes bombed Qusair in the morning and shells were hitting the town at a rate of up to 50 a minute.

"The army is hitting Qusair with tanks and artillery form the north and east while Hezbollah is firing mortar rounds and multiple rocket launchers from the south and west," he said.

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/05/19/us-syria-crisis-border-idUSBRE94I06U20130519

70 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Syrian army, Hezbollah attack rebels in border town: opposition (Original Post) Bosonic May 2013 OP
Well, it is clear whose side Hezbollah is on... n/t Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #1
That has never been in doubt. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #5
I am not surprised Hezbollah would side with the government that Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #6
The "more religious rebel groups" are Sunni radicals and consider Shiites like Hezbollah apostates. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #8
Hezbollah has declared war 4dsc May 2013 #2
How reliable are the words OF ONE REBEL FIGHTER? socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #9
The Hezbollah-Assad connection oberliner May 2013 #10
At first glance, what you say makes sense... David__77 May 2013 #12
I agree the rebels that are fundamentalist and foreign have much more toxic ideologies socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #18
Yes, the insurgents are hysterical right now. David__77 May 2013 #20
Where does he claim that? oberliner May 2013 #23
From his facebook page socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #25
Do you read/speak Arabic? oberliner May 2013 #29
Google socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #35
I'm not sure what the response means oberliner May 2013 #37
What (or who) precisely did you use for translation purposes? LanternWaste May 2013 #49
Good question oberliner May 2013 #69
Hezbollah confirms heavily involved in Syria conflict oberliner May 2013 #70
Syria is going to start WWIII jessie04 May 2013 #16
So, who is on third? pennylane100 May 2013 #3
On a more serious note, now I am awake pennylane100 May 2013 #4
First, it solidifies the Syria/Iran/Hezbollah relationship. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #7
Thank you, pennylane100 May 2013 #11
Good point about the Iraq invasion and Bush daleo May 2013 #13
Countries cannot directly assist those trapped people. David__77 May 2013 #14
U.S. involvement in the Middle East has less to do than the Arab Spring movement. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #15
So what were the John2 May 2013 #17
You are simply wrong. It began with peaceful protest in 2011. See links below. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #21
I disagree, but it's not relevant: it's either Assad or al Qaeda. David__77 May 2013 #27
No it is not "either Assad or al Qaeda." That's the line Assad has been selling since this started. pampango May 2013 #32
Center for American Progress!?!? socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #36
"The Center for American Progress is a progressive public policy research and advocacy organization. pampango May 2013 #57
The purpose of the Heritage foundation socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #59
Just because you say it does not make it so. The Center for American Progress is a great source of pampango May 2013 #61
It's a well known fact that think tanks in the United States only promote the objectives of their socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #62
The U.S. government should facilitate the people's ability to make those choices or any other. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #39
NO! The US government should absolutely NOT "facilitate" any involvement in the region. riderinthestorm May 2013 #56
If you disagree with the history, post links to show it beginning with violence. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #46
Demonstrators were killing policemen and burning down government buildings... Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #44
You're leaving out the part about snipers and attacks on policemen and gov't buildings that provoked leveymg May 2013 #52
Syrian Rebels have never been peaceful, the very changes they are calling for, socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #19
See my Answer to John2 above...YOu are just flat wrong. Links above. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #22
Sucks to not be in the majority oberliner May 2013 #24
What they have under Assad is a Minority Rule by a dictator and his cronies. Agnosticsherbet May 2013 #40
Agreed oberliner May 2013 #41
If the alternative is Sharia law, the secularism of Assad will always be preferable. socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #63
Who are we to judge ? jessie04 May 2013 #64
Well I guess you either recognize universal human rights or not. socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #65
It should NOT be up to the US to decide what type of government Syria has. David__77 May 2013 #26
"Israel bans parties that don't recognize Israel as a Jewish state" oberliner May 2013 #31
Quite biased. PEACEFUL PROTESTS???? Are you kidding? socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #28
Syrian Troops Open Fire on Protesters in Several Cities (2011) oberliner May 2013 #30
A one sided representation of the events. socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #34
Understood oberliner May 2013 #38
The Wikikpedia timeline of the Syrian uprising is illuminating Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #42
Please see the timelines for Syria and Libya excerpted at #52 leveymg May 2013 #53
The reports don't say that at all. socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #60
Yes they do oberliner May 2013 #66
The article you posted didn't represent a non violent protest, destroying property is violent. socialsecurityisAAA May 2013 #67
OK oberliner May 2013 #68
Do the women get to vote on that? leftynyc May 2013 #33
Soo.... Xithras May 2013 #43
Hezbollah is gonna suffer blowback from this--interfering geek tragedy May 2013 #45
It's already been effecting Lebanon. There was more fighting in Tripoli last night. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #47
If one wants to split hairs, then yes Hezbollah has generally geek tragedy May 2013 #48
This isn't "the Sunni world," this is right across the road. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #50
Syria has become internationalized, and that means geek tragedy May 2013 #51
Those foreign Sunni jihadis are essentially mercenaries. Comrade Grumpy May 2013 #54
And the Sunni backed jihadis were/are also in Libya and Egypt and Tunisia... nt riderinthestorm May 2013 #55
This message was self-deleted by its author Stuart G May 2013 #58

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
6. I am not surprised Hezbollah would side with the government that
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:20 PM
May 2013

supplies it with weapons. However, ideologically, they could have chosen one of the more religous rebel groups. Other religous organization throughout the Middle East have tended to side with the rebels. This conflict has clarified the fault lines running through the region.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
8. The "more religious rebel groups" are Sunni radicals and consider Shiites like Hezbollah apostates.
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:35 PM
May 2013

This is a Sunni vs. Shia civil war, and national borders aren't going to mean much.

Ask Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey.

9. How reliable are the words OF ONE REBEL FIGHTER?
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:43 PM
May 2013

The source isn't even a Syrian native. With money flooding these foreign rebel opposition groups from Qatar and Saudi Arabia how can we possibly consider them unbiased? Nowhere in the article does it mention how these men were identified. I find it rather odd that a fundamentalist org like Hezbollah would support a SECULAR Assad. Seems like their ideology lines up with the FUNDAMENTALIST rebels.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
10. The Hezbollah-Assad connection
Sun May 19, 2013, 02:04 PM
May 2013

From Al Jazeera, 2011:

Shia leader Hassan Nasrallah's recent outspoken support of Assad is rooted in Syrian material and political support.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/06/201161154932651488.html

David__77

(23,214 posts)
12. At first glance, what you say makes sense...
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:02 PM
May 2013

But in this case, it does not apply. Hezbollah strongly supports Syria's government, and vice versa. And I'd argue that the religiosity of Hexbollah is fundamentally different, and less toxic, than that of the radical Sunni Islamist groups like al Qaeda. There is some room for ecumenism with Hezbollah.

18. I agree the rebels that are fundamentalist and foreign have much more toxic ideologies
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:20 PM
May 2013

Last edited Sun May 19, 2013, 07:26 PM - Edit history (1)

and I can accept that Hezbollah MAY be supporting Assad. Still I don't trust the accusations of one Foreign Rebel fighter whose ideology isn't clarified. This same rebel(activist) has made other sensational accusations before that haven't been verified and a few that were outright propaganda built on lies. He claims that Assad soldiers were moving weapons and assumes the weapons are loaded with Chemical warheads but provides no evidence supporting his claim, neither does he provide a followup stating the weapons were used and where so that an investigation could have taken place. Seeing as he is a Rebel activist he couldn't have possible been there to see the weapons assembled, how does he know they were loaded with chemicals? It was a propaganda claim to incite an emotional response. And so far the evidence available points to the rebels using chemical weapons.

David__77

(23,214 posts)
20. Yes, the insurgents are hysterical right now.
Sun May 19, 2013, 08:24 PM
May 2013

They are issuing shrill, frantic announcement about Qusayr and their impending defeat there.

The insurgents are engaging in random shelling of residential areas including schools/universities, killing of prisoners, cannibalism and suicide bombings. What next?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
23. Where does he claim that?
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:26 AM
May 2013

Can you provide a link to this activist making that claim about chemical warheads?

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
37. I'm not sure what the response means
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:06 AM
May 2013

You Googled this man's name and that led you to his Facebook page? Or you used Google to translate the Arabic text?

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
49. What (or who) precisely did you use for translation purposes?
Mon May 20, 2013, 02:58 PM
May 2013

What (or who) precisely did you use for translation purposes?

I ask because I've read numerous sources which stated emphatically that Khrushchev once said "we will bury you", but later, more accurate translations read it as "we will still be here long after you are buried"; two wholly separate concepts conflated in order to better validate the propaganda of one side.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
69. Good question
Tue May 21, 2013, 10:26 AM
May 2013

To your Krushchev remark, though, he did seem comfortable with that translation based on future remarks he said claiming the quote.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
70. Hezbollah confirms heavily involved in Syria conflict
Sat May 25, 2013, 06:17 PM
May 2013

Hezbollah Secretary General Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah announced Saturday the large-scale involvement of his party in the war in neighboring Syria, saying his party’s fighting against Syrian rebels aimed at protecting the resistance group.

“We are now in a totally new phase that began a few weeks ago. This new phase aims at fortifying the resistance and protecting its backbone, fortifying Lebanon and protecting its backbone,” Nasrallah said.

“We will assume this responsibility and endure all the sacrifices and consequences that come with taking such a stance,” he said.

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Politics/2013/May-25/218352-hezbollah-says-fighting-in-syria-opposes-importing-crisis-to-lebanon.ashx#ixzz2ULTiY9jf


Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
7. First, it solidifies the Syria/Iran/Hezbollah relationship.
Sun May 19, 2013, 01:26 PM
May 2013

Second, it makes it much more difficult for refugees to flee into Jordan since Hezbollah controls that border. Some refugees will have much farther to run.

Third, it places a new military player on the field, forcing the rebels to fight yet another heavily armed enemy.

pennylane100

(3,425 posts)
11. Thank you,
Sun May 19, 2013, 02:48 PM
May 2013

It must be horrendous for the people that live in that part of the world. I think that the world community should do something to help those that are trapped in the fighting but I have not idea what it should be.

On a side note, I used to follow Riverbend, a blogger from Iraq, until she fled to Syria. I think she now has to move again because of this unrest. I wonder how much of the blame is from what the Bush regime did to her country.

daleo

(21,317 posts)
13. Good point about the Iraq invasion and Bush
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:03 PM
May 2013

Personally, I think Bush and the war supporters wanted and expected exactly what we are witnessing in Syria.

David__77

(23,214 posts)
14. Countries cannot directly assist those trapped people.
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:19 PM
May 2013

The parties presently smuggling arms and fighters into Syria should stop, and urge a political solution to the Syrian internal war as soon as possible. The prospects for that are dim, however. The opposition is not likely to accept any elections path that does not ban the parties presently in power, and the government is not likely to accept a solution of amending the constitution to permit sectarian political parties.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
15. U.S. involvement in the Middle East has less to do than the Arab Spring movement.
Sun May 19, 2013, 03:29 PM
May 2013

The Syrian Rebels began as peaceful protests as they did in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, in the Persian Gulf States and elsewhere. The Assad regime decided rather than give more freedom to kill those who asked. They had less support than rebels in Egypt, Libya, or even Tunisia.

You can blame the U.S. equally along with historical movement by Europe to maintain totalitarian governments in the oil states to keep the oil trade stable and the pipeline flowing. You can blame Russia because Syria is a client state and they have maintained military support of the Regime and stopped a more muscular western reaction to the civil war.

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
17. So what were the
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:13 PM
May 2013

demands of these Rebels you said started out as a peaceful protest? Did they break any law or destroy any property in their peaceful protest?

Hezbullah has always been allies of Syria and Iran. Iran arms Hezbullah and Syria gives them political support in their War against Israel. Hezbullah is the strongest military force in Lebanon and they have a political arm also in Lebanon. The Speaker of the Parliament in Lebanon is a Shiite and the Speaker can only be a Shiite just like the President has to be a Christian and Prime Minister has to be a Sunni. That is the only way you can keep peace in Lebanon but maybe up until now, Hezbullah had popular support in Lebanon because they are the only military force in Lebanon capable of standing up to Israel. They are very popular among the Shia population in Lebanon where their strength is located. Lebanon also has a minority Alawite population which is an off shoot of the Shia sect.

You also have an equal number of Sunnis in Lebanon which gets influence from Saudi Arabia. This is a War between Sunnis, Alawites, Shias and Kurds. You also have Christians in the minority. The Alawites, Shias, Christians and Kurds do not favor the Sunnis. That is very clear.
Even though this War is mainly between the Sunnis, Alawites and Shias, the Christians and Kurds have their own interests. Hezbullah has a number of supporters. It was funded, trained and equipped by Iran from the Iranian Islamic Revolution. The leader of Hezbullah was educated in Iran. They also have influence in Iraq. Not only this, North korea has also given Hezbullah fighters training. Hezbullah is similar to a paramilitary group of Iran. Iran also funded a sister Shia organization of Hezbullah in Lebanon which the Speaker of Lebanon's Parliament is the head of. Sunni States like Saudi Arabia are very fearful of Iran's influence as a Power in the region. When George Bush got rid of Saddam, they did Iran a big favor.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
21. You are simply wrong. It began with peaceful protest in 2011. See links below.
Mon May 20, 2013, 12:09 AM
May 2013

Turned to violence after Assad started murdering the protesters.

Syria conflict: from peaceful protest to civil war

2011 March - Protests in Damascus and the southern city of Deraa demand the release of political prisoners. Security forces shoot a number of people dead in Deraa, triggering days of violent unrest that steadily spread nationwide over the following months.

Continue reading the main story
2011 protests
Pro-government tanks enter southern Syrian city of Deraa to confront pro-democracy protesters
The Syrian government sent tanks into cities in an attempt to quell pro-democracy protests

Q&A: Syria protests
Q&A: The Free Syrian Army

The government announces some conciliatory measures in an attempt to damp down unrest. . President Assad releases dozens of political prisoners and dismisses the government, and in April lifts the 48-year-old state of emergency. However, he accuses protesters of being Israeli agents.

2011 May - Army tanks enter Deraa, Banyas, Homs and suburbs of Damascus in an effort to crush anti-regime protests. US and European Union tighten sanctions. President Assad announces amnesty for political prisoners.


Syria's once-peaceful protesters turn to guns

David__77

(23,214 posts)
27. I disagree, but it's not relevant: it's either Assad or al Qaeda.
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:55 AM
May 2013

That's the choice confronting Syria. I don't want the US trying to demand that the Syrian people accept one over the other.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
32. No it is not "either Assad or al Qaeda." That's the line Assad has been selling since this started.
Mon May 20, 2013, 06:30 AM
May 2013

It the same line that the Shah used when he was the 'royal' ruler of Iran and the West bought it. (His version was slightly different - "It's me or the fundamentalists.&quot The Shah was a 'secular' dictator (extremely brutal, but relatively secular). Did the strategy of supporting a 'secular' dictator in order to hold off the religious theocrats end up working in Iran? Perhaps we should have urged the Shah and his army to plunge Iran into a civil war in order to try to defeat Khomeini and maintain the Shah's 'royal' rule.



http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2013/05/14/63221/the-structure-and-organization-of-the-syrian-opposition/

Al Qeada's fighters (Jabhat al-Nusra) in Syria are less than 10% of the total of the opposition. Are they a potent fighting force? You bet. Can they cause a lot of chaos with their terrorism? You bet. Does that mean that the choice in Syria is "Assad or al Qaeda"? No.

The fact is that Assad is a nasty piece of work who will destroy Syria in order to remain in power. The fact is that there are many Syrians who do not want to live under either a dictator or a theocracy. The fact is that the nasty side of the opposition gains strength as the civil war goes on. The fact is that Assad is a smart man who knows the Middle East and knew, when he decided to stay in power at all costs, this would happen if his army did not win a quick victory. The fact is that there is nothing we can do about any of this other than provide aid to refugees - anything else will make a terrible situation for the Syrian people even worse.

The concept that "we should support Assad because the other side has an even worse faction" in essence rewards Assad for dragging Syria into a civil war. When this started in March 2011 the other side did not have "an even worse faction". The demonstrations for democratizing the government were massive and largely peaceful. Many of the demonstrators were not advocating Assad's removal, just the opening up of the government.

As a smart man, Assad knew that 'opening up' the government was not good for his long term job security. Repressing the opposition with his security apparatus and army had always worked in the past. If it failed to work quickly, the worst that could happen would be a civil war and he had one of the largest, most powerful militaries in the region. As a smart man, he knew that a civil war would likely attract a very violent segment to the opposition. He is smart and he was right.

36. Center for American Progress!?!?
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:37 AM
May 2013

Basically a government mouthpiece/think tank. They're as biased as the Heritage Institute.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
57. "The Center for American Progress is a progressive public policy research and advocacy organization.
Mon May 20, 2013, 06:54 PM
May 2013
Its website states that the organization is "dedicated to improving the lives of Americans through progressive ideas and action". The Center presents a liberal viewpoint on economic issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_for_American_Progress

"They're as biased as the Heritage Institute." - Sure they are. You may not like their message, but to compare it to the Heritage Foundation is ludicrous.
59. The purpose of the Heritage foundation
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:38 PM
May 2013

"Our vision is to build an America where freedom, opportunity, prosperity, and civil society flourish. " Complete and utter Rubbish.
Both of these organizations are closely associated with government insiders, albeit from different ends of the political spectrum. There is nothing unbiased nor altruistic about the purpose of either of these organizations. They are designed to promote the propaganda of their respective political parties, and their benefactors.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
61. Just because you say it does not make it so. The Center for American Progress is a great source of
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:01 PM
May 2013

research from a progressive prospective.

If you believe that its research into the Syrian opposition is flawed, I welcome you to counter it with research that others have done that show something different. Or you can just trash the CAP and its study and try to convince us that you know better what the nature of the opposition really is.

What I hope we don't do is adopt the republican approach to policy making. In Iraq, they decided that they wanted to intervene then went about 1) inventing 'facts' that supported their policy and 2) ignored actual facts that contradicted them. I hope we do not decide on the policy first with respect to Syria then invent 'facts' that support the policy we want and ignore those that contradict them. Facts have a liberal bias. We do not need to invent them or ignore them.

BTW, CAP has stated that foreign intervention in Syria would be a huge mistake. They just do not want to ignore the facts when they make this policy decision.

62. It's a well known fact that think tanks in the United States only promote the objectives of their
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:49 PM
May 2013

financiers. When a think tank comes along that is completely supported by donations from the people, rather than corporations and banks, I would give it some serious consideration. Until then, like most anything else in our capitalist system, I'll look at the financial backers. After all if the Legislators associated with this organization are guilty of protecting and promoting the objectives of their financial bakers in the legislature, why should their motivations be any different at the think tank?

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
39. The U.S. government should facilitate the people's ability to make those choices or any other.
Mon May 20, 2013, 11:19 AM
May 2013

Those that have chosen to fight rather than live under tyranny or been killed and dropped into a hole is a good thing.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
56. NO! The US government should absolutely NOT "facilitate" any involvement in the region.
Mon May 20, 2013, 05:14 PM
May 2013

Our presence simply fucks things up catastrophically. We have no business meddling in a centuries old sectarian religious battle that's seeing its umpteenth reincarnation.

No, no and no again!


Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
46. If you disagree with the history, post links to show it beginning with violence.
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:45 PM
May 2013

History says that non-violent protests were met with violence by the Assad Regime and that his Regime has escalated over time.
The idea that it is either Assad or Al Qaeda is actually Assad's talking point. The US has not demanded the Syrian people accept one over the other since the beginning of protests. Saying it is only those choices is siding with the Regime busy shelling its citizens and selling a false talking point created by a murdering tyrant.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
44. Demonstrators were killing policemen and burning down government buildings...
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:25 PM
May 2013

...by mid-March 2011.

They hoped it would be another Libya. They were wrong.

See the Wikipedia timeline I posted below.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
52. You're leaving out the part about snipers and attacks on policemen and gov't buildings that provoked
Mon May 20, 2013, 03:30 PM
May 2013

the military crackdown. Can't blame you really, that omission is a common thread in coverage of events that led up to the start of the civil wars in both Libya and Syria in the early months of 2011.

Here's what you and many others have omitted about Syria. The first weeks of open protests and government reaction were largely nonviolent, and remained that way until mid-March, when opposition mass demonstrations turned violent and gun battles with police started in the southern city of Daraa:

No significant events listed in the Syria Timeline between Feb. 27 and March 6, 2011: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_civil_war_%28January%E2%80%93April_2011%29

First opposition mass protests weren't even until March 15. There was one reported fatal shooting on March 20 in Daraa when protestors set fire to buildings housing the ruling Ba'ath Party. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/middleeast/21syria.html Opposition fatalities again occurred in Daraa on April 8, amidst shooting between snipers and police.

Here's the Chrononology at Wiki:

First Syrian mass protests March 15, 2011

15 March – "Day of Rage"

External videos
First explicit demonstration against the Syrian regime Damascus, Syria, 15 March 2011 on YouTube

Simultaneous demonstrations took place in major cities across Syria. Thousands of protesters gathered in al-Hasakah, Daraa, Deir ez-Zor, and Hama. There were some clashes with security, according to reports from dissident groups. In Damascus, a smaller group of 200 men grew spontaneously to about 1,500 men. Damascus has not seen such uprising since the 1980s. The official Facebook page called "Syrian Revolution 2011" showed pictures of supportive demonstrations in Cairo, Nicosia, Helsinki, Istanbul and Berlin. There were also unconfirmed news that Syrian revolution supporters of Libyan descent, stormed into the Syrian Embassy in Paris.

Another recently released political figure, Suhair Atassi, became an unofficial spokesperson for the "Syrian revolution", when she was interviewed by dozens of Arab and international media channels regarding the uprising. There were reports of 6 arrested in Damascus. Atassi paid tribute to "the Syrian people who took the initiative ahead of the opposition," recalling the popular uprisings that shook Tunisia and Egypt After the first day of the uprising there were reports about approximately 3000 arrests and a few "martyrs", but there are no official figures on the number of deaths.


Armed resistance started on April 8, 2011. There were no significant demonstrations in Syria until a protest in Damascus involving a couple hundred people on February 5 following the first protest that followed the internet Call for Days of Rage a few days earlier.

Daraa, a city near the Jordanian border in Southern Syria, was the site of the first armed clashes and massacres in early April.

The fighting with military defectors was a battle that developed within the context of armed uprising in Daraa. The events of April 8 that led to the arrival two weeks later of large number of government troops are key to understanding how the violence was sparked and why the use of force by the regime escalated. There were three key actions that sparked the crackdown: snipers, the burning of the Ba'ath Party Headquarters by a large, armed mob, and the killing of 19 policemen and security personnel. http://en.wikipedia.org/...

8 April – "Friday of Resistance"
External videos
Unknown Gunmen Filmed at Syria Demo
(YouTube: Associated Press.)
8 April 2011. Retrieved 9 April 2011.
Protests in Duma near Damascus

On the third Friday called "Friday of Resistance", thousands of protesters took to streets in Daraa, Latakia, Tartus, Edlib, Baniyas, Qamishli, Homs and the Damascus suburb of Harasta, in the largest protest yet.

27 anti-government protesters were killed in Daraa and many other were wounded when security forces opened fire with rubber bullets and live rounds to disperse stone-throwing protesters. The clashes started when thousands of prayers staged rallies following the Friday prayers. In a telephone call one of the activists told the news agencies that demonstrators, starting from three mosques, have marched to the city's main court where they were confronted by security forces dressed in civilian clothing. A witness told Reuters he saw "snipers on roofs." It was also reported that another resident has seen "pools of blood and three bodies" in the Mahatta area of Daraa. The protesters have also smashed a stone statue of Basil al-Assad, the brother of the current President of the country, and set fire to a Ba'ath Party outpost. The state-run Syrian Television reported that 19 police officers and members of the security forces have been killed in Daraa.

You may view the original AP Raw Feed from Daraa on April 8 which shows the mob and the snipers, here:

http://www.youtube.com/... - (URL for:

Raw Video: Deadly Day of Protests in Syria - YouTube
► 1:13► 1:13

www.youtube.com Apr 8, 2011 - 1 min - Uploaded by AssociatedPress
State-run Syrian TV says 19 police officers and security forces have been killed in southern city of Daraa. (April 8)

Here are some of the more specific parallel events in Libya:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_civil_war

A "Day of Rage" in Libya and by Libyans in exile was planned for 17 February.[107][122][123] The National Conference for the Libyan Opposition asked that all groups opposed to the Gaddafi government protest on 17 February in memory of demonstrations in Benghazi five years earlier.[107] The plans to protest were inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian revolution.[107] Protests took place in Benghazi, Ajdabiya, Derna, Zintan, and Bayda. Libyan security forces fired live ammunition into the armed protests. Protesters torched a number of government buildings, including a police station.[124][125] In Tripoli, television and public radio stations had been sacked, and protesters set fire to security buildings, Revolutionary Committee offices, the interior ministry building, and the People's Hall.[126][127] According to a report from the International Crisis Group, "much Western media coverage has from the outset presented a very one-sided view of the logic of events, portraying the protest movement as entirely peaceful and repeatedly suggesting that the government's security forces were unaccountably massacring unarmed demonstrators who presented no security challenge".[126]

On 18 February, police and army personnel later withdrew from Benghazi after being overwhelmed by protesters. Some army personnel also joined the protesters; they then seized the local radio station. In Bayda, unconfirmed reports indicated that the local police force and riot-control units had joined the protesters.[128] On 19 February, witnesses in Libya reported helicopters firing into crowds of anti-government protesters.[129] The army withdrew from the city of Bayda.



19. Syrian Rebels have never been peaceful, the very changes they are calling for,
Sun May 19, 2013, 05:22 PM
May 2013

the end of a secular state, the institution of sharia law are anything but peaceful.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
22. See my Answer to John2 above...YOu are just flat wrong. Links above.
Mon May 20, 2013, 12:11 AM
May 2013

And who are we to decide for the Syrians how they define their government? If the majority want Sharia law, then they should be free to decide that, not murdered by their government.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
24. Sucks to not be in the majority
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:30 AM
May 2013

Majority rule can have dire consequences for unprotected minorities.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
40. What they have under Assad is a Minority Rule by a dictator and his cronies.
Mon May 20, 2013, 11:31 AM
May 2013

No one is protected under that form.

We should facilitate the peoples right to choose a government more to their liking. No doubt they will make mistakes. We have.

Bush proved, absolutely, that we can not force people to sit up a Jeffersonian Democracy with protections for individuals and minorities (though to be fair, as originally promulgated, even with the Bill of Rights, women and non-whites had heavy restrictions on those protections, and white male non landowners could not vote.) I would bet, that along with your problem with majority rule, you would oppose a state where white land owning men could own other people and women's rights were defined by marital status.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
41. Agreed
Mon May 20, 2013, 11:33 AM
May 2013

I just know that the majority doesn't always consider the rights of the minorities in their midst.

63. If the alternative is Sharia law, the secularism of Assad will always be preferable.
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:02 PM
May 2013

Democracy, unfortunately, only works if the people are educated and accept that the civil rights of every individual must be protected and maintained free from the influence of religion or cultural norms that do not recognize equality of the sexes or the rights of the individual. They are not at that point in many areas of the middle east.
The western military industrial complex certainly is not helping them along the way by keeping the area destabilized and flooding the region with weapons. When the C.I.A. funded radical Islamic textbooks to incite the Afghans against the Soviets in the 80's they created a force that victimizes the region to this day. Al qaeda.

 

jessie04

(1,528 posts)
64. Who are we to judge ?
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:08 PM
May 2013

I'm not for sharia law in all it entails but it's just wrong in my thinking to think one culture/ religion is better or worse that another.

65. Well I guess you either recognize universal human rights or not.
Mon May 20, 2013, 09:42 PM
May 2013

If you don't recognize their priority above all else, we will have to agree to disagree.

David__77

(23,214 posts)
26. It should NOT be up to the US to decide what type of government Syria has.
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:53 AM
May 2013

And Syria's constitution bans political parties that are based on religious sect or that want to alter the secular foundations of the state. Germany bans national socialist parties, and Israel bans parties that don't recognize Israel as a Jewish state. I don't want the US dictating to any of these that something must potentially override these constitutional stipulations.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
31. "Israel bans parties that don't recognize Israel as a Jewish state"
Mon May 20, 2013, 06:24 AM
May 2013

This is not true.

There are three political parties in Israel that do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

28. Quite biased. PEACEFUL PROTESTS???? Are you kidding?
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:55 AM
May 2013

There was nothing peaceful about the protests, nor can they be considered democratically inspired. Foreign forces from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey etc, all countries that are attacking their own PEACEFUL PROTESTERS WHO ARE CALLING FOR DEMOCRACY/AND OR AN END TO CORRUPTION, were funding and shipping FUNDAMENTALIST FOREIGN FORCES TO SYRIA. No news organization could pretend to claim to know who of the violent protesters(in America the acts would have been considered terrorism) were foreign or native!

Who are we to decide???? WHO IS SAUDI ARABIA, QATAR, TURKEY, AL QAEDA TO DECIDE THAT SECULARISM SHOULD END IN SYRIA? The majority of Syrian's don't want sharia law. The hypocrisy of this statement "If the majority want Sharia law, then they should be free to decide that, not murdered by their government." is extremely hypocritical. There is absolutely nothing democratic about Sharia law. Do you understand that under sharia law women, girls and homosexuals can be put to death at the whim of a patriarchal archaic justice system, and I use the word justice very lightly in this case. There is nothing just about sharia law. If you get Sharia law THE GOVERNMENT CAN KILL WHOEVER THEY WANT IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. Forget about democracy, with Sharia law you have Religious Rule.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
30. Syrian Troops Open Fire on Protesters in Several Cities (2011)
Mon May 20, 2013, 06:22 AM
May 2013

CAIRO — Military troops opened fire during protests in the southern part of Syria on Friday and killed peaceful demonstrators, according to witnesses and news reports, hurtling the strategically important nation along the same trajectory that has altered the landscape of power across the Arab world.

Tens of thousands of demonstrators in the southern city of Dara’a and in other cities and towns around the nation took to the streets in protest, defying a state that has once again demonstrated its willingness to use lethal force.

It was the most serious challenge to 40 years of repressive rule by the Assad family since 1982, when the president at the time, Hafez al-Assad, massacred at least 10,000 protesters in Hama, a city in northern Syria.

Human rights groups said that since protests began seven days ago in the south, 38 people had been killed by government forces — and it appeared that many more were killed on Friday. Precise details were hard to obtain because the government sealed off the area to reporters and would not let foreign news media into the country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/26/world/middleeast/26syria.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

34. A one sided representation of the events.
Mon May 20, 2013, 08:31 AM
May 2013

Would you prefer that the our government NOT quell violent revolts in American? The Arab spring was violent. It left the countries it spread through chaotic. In Libya's case the Arab Spring completely destroyed the civilization that existed there. Libya is now a wasted plateau. Secularism, social safety nets, infrastructure in Syria and Libya have been obliterated. Religious rule has replaced Secularism.
In Libya, and I hate to repeat this, the educational system that was provided to all students no longer exists. With the ongoing war in Libya it won't likely be restored anytime soon. The Energy and water sectors of Libya have been mostly destroyed. Still supporting the Arab spring so enthusiastically???
All of the countries are going to need HUGE IMF AND DIRECT AMERICAN FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE AND SUPPORT. Loans loans loans, debt debt debt. We also profit heavily from arms sales(which supposedly aren't being made to rebels)which were made to Libya enthusiastically. We also armed the Egyptian government so they COULD ATTACK THEIR DEMONSTRATORS. Something less mentioned is the fact that WE HAVE ALSO ARMED SAUDI ARABIA WHICH IS AVIDLY ATTACKING ITS CITIZENS IN SAUDI ARABIA AS WELL AS BAHRAIN. Oh I could go one and on about Bahrain. Read about it! Its another horror story continuing to this day.
There is another story of the Arab spring and Syria, . A different story is told by the civilians who can't hope to ever call Syria home again if fundamentalists take over. Because of foreign involvement, which Assad claims existed in the form of terrorist attacks occurring every day in the beginning, Syria is now a fractured country. Fractured and traumatized.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
38. Understood
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:07 AM
May 2013

I am just trying to get a handle on things. The reports from that time period seem to indicate that the protests were non-violent ones and that the government fired on non-violent protesters. Do you dispute that claim? If so, can you provide a source that provides a more complete picture?

I agree that there are horrible things going on in Saudi Arabia and Bahrain as well.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
42. The Wikikpedia timeline of the Syrian uprising is illuminating
Mon May 20, 2013, 12:55 PM
May 2013
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_civil_war_(January%E2%80%93April_2011)

15 March – "Day of Rage" [edit] External video First explicit demonstration against the Syrian regime Damascus, Syria, 15 March 2011 on YouTube
Simultaneous demonstrations took place in major cities across Syria. Thousands of protesters gathered in al-Hasakah, Daraa, Deir ez-Zor, and Hama. There were some clashes with security, according to reports from dissident groups. In Damascus, a smaller group of 200 men grew spontaneously to about 1,500 men. Damascus has not seen such uprising since the 1980s. The official Facebook page called "Syrian Revolution 2011" showed pictures of supportive demonstrations in Cairo, Nicosia, Helsinki, Istanbul and Berlin. There were also unconfirmed news that Syrian revolution supporters of Libyan descent, stormed into the Syrian Embassy in Paris.[49][50][51][52][53]

Another recently released political figure, Suhair Atassi, became an unofficial spokesperson for the "Syrian revolution", when she was interviewed by dozens of Arab and international media channels regarding the uprising. There were reports of 6 arrested in Damascus.[54][55][56][57] Atassi paid tribute to "the Syrian people who took the initiative ahead of the opposition," recalling the popular uprisings that shook Tunisia and Egypt[48] After the first day of the uprising there were reports about approximately 3000 arrests and a few "martyrs", but there are no official figures on the number of deaths.[58]

16 March [edit]Syrian authorities forcibly dispersed a crowd composed of 200 demonstrators in front of the Syrian Interior Ministry. al-Arabiya reported that the protesters were a mix of activists and jurists, writers, journalists, young academics, and family members to people detained in Syrian prisons.[59][60][61] Several security officers managed to infiltrate themselves in demonstrations at different places and started shouting slogans declaring their love and loyalty to President Bashar al-Assad.[62]< The security forces arrested a number of protesters, Al Jazeera reported 25,[63] while Al Arabiya said 32[64] including activist and lawyer Suhair Atassi and Kamal Cheikho, an activist who had been released two days earlier.[65][66][67] World Organisation Against Torture published list of arrests and demanded immediate release of them.[46]

Mohamed al-Ali, a spokesman for the Syrian Interior Authority denied that any demonstrations took place in Syria and said that the Facebook-campaign has proved unsuccessful. According to the spokesperson, the "claimed protests" consisted of a bunch of people who were "hiding" among the already packed souq and tried to make it look like a demonstration.[68] In another statement, he finally acknowledged the protest but then turned it around by saying that the demonstration which was outside the Interior Authority's building was actually in support of President Bashar al-Assad.[69]

18 March - "Friday of Dignity" [edit]On 18 March the most serious unrest to take place in Syria for decades erupted.[70] After Friday prayers, thousands of protesters demanding an end to alleged government corruption took to the streets of cities across Syria.[71] The protesters were met with a violent crackdown orchestrated by state security forces. The protesters chanted "God, Syria, Freedom" and anti-corruption slogans.[72]

Amateur video footage posted on YouTube and Twitter showed large groups of protesters in several cities, such as Damascus, Daraa, Homs, Baniyas, al-Qamishli and Deir ez-Zor.[73][74][75] In Damascus, Syrian security forces dressed as civilians broke up protests outside the Umayyad Mosque, dragging away at least two activists.[73] In the southern city of Daraa, people chanted against Rami Makhlouf, who is the cousin of al-Assad. The regime responded with helicopters and water cannons. There were unconfirmed reports that four protesters had been killed and hundreds injured.[70][72] A resident said that Syrian security forces have killed three protesters in Daraa.[70] The Syrian Government responded by claiming that unnamed "infiltrators" had been attempting to cause chaos.[76]

19 March [edit]Syrian security forces fired tear gas to disperse crowds in Daraa following the funeral of two anti-government protesters killed by security forces on the previous day.[77] The crowds had been shouting "God, Syria, freedom" before the security forces intervened.[77] Witnesses said that the gas used appeared to be more toxic than ordinary tear gas.[78] The Syrian League for Human Rights reported that 10 women who had been detained on 16 March following a rally outside the interior ministry had begun a hunger strike.[79]

20 March [edit]Thousands took to the streets in the city of Daraa for a third day, shouting slogans against the country's emergency law. One person was killed and scores injured as security forces opened fire on protesters.[80] The courthouse, the Baath party headquarters in the city, and Rami Makhlouf's Syriatel building were all set on fire, and seven police were killed by armed rebels[81][82]

21 March [edit]Protests started to spread further across the country.[83] Thousands of people took to the streets in Daraa and troops were sent to the city.[84] Hundreds of people protested in Jassem and there were reports of protests in Banias, Homs and Hama.[84][85]

It was reported that an 11-year-old boy had died of wounds suffered when Syrian security forces dispersed a protest rally in Daraa,[86] and meanwhile, the Beirut-based al Akhbar newspaper accused Lebanese caretaker Prime Minister Saad Hariri's Future Movement of paying the Syrian protesters something that which he immediately denied.[87]

Demonstrators in Daraa killed 7 policemen[88] and set fire to the ruling Baath Party’s headquarters and other government buildings. According to a activist Police officers fired live ammunition into the crowds, killing at least one and wounding scores of others. al-Assad made some conciliatory gestures, but crowds continued to gather in and around the Omari mosque in Dara’a, chanting their demands: the release of all political prisoners; trials for those who shot and killed protesters; the abolition of Syria’s 48-year emergency law; more freedoms; and an end to pervasive corruption.[89]

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
53. Please see the timelines for Syria and Libya excerpted at #52
Mon May 20, 2013, 04:28 PM
May 2013

Events leading up to both civil wars follow a parallel set of events. The public protests started out as calls for Days of Rage by exile groups in London and Paris. Response in the capitols were small and largely peaceful, with few injuries, before demonstrators coming out of Sunni mosques in regional flashpoints became violent and attacked public buildings. In both cases, undertrained and outnumbered police overreacted and used live ammunition and excessive force. Local populations in Benghazi and Daraa became enraged when snipers fired at both police and into the crowds. Some military units defected. Civil war.

It's in the casebook, "How to start an insurrection or coup" It's an old but effective volume, going back to the chapter strating with Iran, 1953. Or, you can see this process in recent action as chronicled at the Wiki Chronologies.

The picture that emerges is very different from the propaganda you probably saw on western corporate media or al-Jazeera, which is owned and controlled by the Qatari ruling regime.

60. The reports don't say that at all.
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:58 PM
May 2013

Last edited Mon May 20, 2013, 09:42 PM - Edit history (1)

The link you posted talks about a security response to violent property destruction. That doesn't sound peaceful to me.
Everyone remembers the reports of security forces in Egypt Molesting civilians. The fires, the bombing of government buildings. Reports from the Syrian the government that government buildings were being attacked by foreign mercenaries were reported in the western media, always reported alongside was Western speculation, speculation formulated with no physical evidence to back it up, that the Assad military might possibly have agitators among the protesters. Without evidence the only thing I can assume considering the violent nature of the Arab spring and it's aspirations is the government of Assad did not need nor want to agitate the conflict further.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
66. Yes they do
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:04 PM
May 2013

Not the Syrian government ones though obviously.

Have you seriously not read any reports of peaceful anti-government protests in Syria that were responded to violently? Or do you just think they are untrue?

I am trying to understanding why you are taking the Syrian state-run media at its word here.

67. The article you posted didn't represent a non violent protest, destroying property is violent.
Mon May 20, 2013, 10:22 PM
May 2013

With similar violence occurring all over Syria, and in some areas much worse, it's natural that security forces would act to prevent the situation from further deteriorating.
I look at all the sources, and then decide. We saw the violent, fundamentalist nature of the Arab spring in Egypt, Libya and now Syria. There is no reason to think the Arab Spring in Syria is any different, especially considering the rebels are filled with foreign fundamentalists from Libya, Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia and are financially backed by these countries that are waging their own wars against protesters and who have a financial interest in spreading their ideology abroad.
Besides western Media articles are ALWAYS based on third party testimony from people that the world knows nothing about. And most of the reports are made without offering any documented evidence! Lastly the U.N. has verified that rebels have used chemical weapons and there is evidence of this use on Syrian civilians. That fact that the west disagrees without any evidence to support their conclusion leads me to believe that they have interests in promoting an unrealistic portrayal of the conflict in Syria.
Take everything in context. I do, the full context that is.

 

leftynyc

(26,060 posts)
33. Do the women get to vote on that?
Mon May 20, 2013, 07:37 AM
May 2013

Or will sharia law once again turn those women who used to be able to get educated and leave their homes into virtual slaves to their husbands/fathers/sons?

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
43. Soo....
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:10 PM
May 2013

...if the majority in the United States want this to become a "Christian Nation", should they be free to do that as well? We get to start teaching Intelligent Design, send the gays back into their closets, and put those "uppity minorities" back in their place once 51% of the country agrees that it's a "good idea"? And to hell with those of us who have divergent beliefs?

There is a difference between democracy and mob rule.

Under international law, every human has the right to choose their own religion and live by its tenets. Forcing an entire nation to live under the rules of Sunni Islam simply because 51% want it is a violation of a fundamental human right. Much of the fighting in Syria today is driven by the fact that a vast portion (more than a quarter of the population) doesn't follow Sunni Islam, and even among the Sunni's there is a substantial chunk of the population that wants a secular state. Most of the people in those groups, perhaps 40+% of the overall population, does NOT want a religious sharia state.

FWIW, Syria today already uses a "dual system". It's a secular government where the laws are based on traditional Islamic practices. They also have a dual court system, so that cases can be tried under either sharia or the secular systems (those involved with the cases get to pick the court they want to use). Syria has done a great job at striking a balance between the two. The Islamists simply want to wipe out the secular components of the system and force everyone to live under religious laws and allow religious leaders to run the court systems.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
45. Hezbollah is gonna suffer blowback from this--interfering
Mon May 20, 2013, 01:27 PM
May 2013

with someone else's civil war so explicitly rarely turns out well.

AQ and other radical Sunni groups have generally not mixed it up with the Shiite terror groups like Hezbollah.

That's going to change now. In addition to having Israel and the US as enemies, Hezbollah will have the Wahabists to contend with.

And, of course, this will affect Lebanon as well.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
47. It's already been effecting Lebanon. There was more fighting in Tripoli last night.
Mon May 20, 2013, 02:02 PM
May 2013

Usage notes: Al Qaeda is a "radical Sunni group," but Hezbollash is "Shiite terror group."

In general, I think the use of "terror" and its variants is very tendentious. The terms ought to be retired from the discourse. The terms add no informational value, just polemic value.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
48. If one wants to split hairs, then yes Hezbollah has generally
Mon May 20, 2013, 02:13 PM
May 2013

avoided direct conflict with its counterparts in the Sunni world.

But, the important thing to remember in all of this is that Sunnis vs Shiites fighting each other is the fault of the US and Israel.

(in case that was necessary)

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
50. This isn't "the Sunni world," this is right across the road.
Mon May 20, 2013, 02:58 PM
May 2013

Hezbollah is fighting on the edges of the Bekaa Valley, where there are lots of Shiite villages on both sides of the border. This is their neighborhood, and I don't think invisible lines mean much.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
51. Syria has become internationalized, and that means
Mon May 20, 2013, 03:16 PM
May 2013

that foreign Sunni jihadis are involved, and they're not going to forget who was shooting at them.

 

Comrade Grumpy

(13,184 posts)
54. Those foreign Sunni jihadis are essentially mercenaries.
Mon May 20, 2013, 05:07 PM
May 2013

The Qataris are paying them $50,000 a man. They'll go where their paymasters send them. Iraq, anybody?

Hezbollah, on the other hand, is on its home turf and isn't going anywhere.

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