New evidence in George Zimmerman case : Trayvon texted about being a fighter
Source: Orlando Sentinel
Defense attorneys in the George Zimmerman case today released evidence they discovered on Trayvon Martin's cell phones, including text messages in which he wrote about taking part in organized fights.
Zimmerman described Trayvon to police as an aggressive young man who punched him, knocking him to the ground then climbed on top and began hammering his head onto a sidewalk.
In one text message Trayvon sent Nov. 22, 2011, he wrote about his unnamed opponent, "he got mo hits cause in da 1st round he had me on da ground an I couldn't do ntn."
In another text send Dec. 12 he acknowledged earning a reputation in the neighborhood although because words were blacked out, it's not clear what his reputation was. His reputation came, he wrote, because of "Duh way I fight nd duh golds (teeth) I had last year."
Read more: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-trayvon-20130523,0,939183.story?track=rss
The key to this trial is what evidence the judge will allow. Zimmerman's lawyers will do their best to smear Trayvon and paint him as an aggressive thug. It is going to be ugly as hell.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)after Zimmerman gave up his pursuit and was returning to his car. So painting Martin as being violent would buttress such a defense.
Besides - character assignation is a tried and true legal tactic. It works all the time.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'm going to keep asking this question until I get an answer...
hack89
(39,171 posts)Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)and sought him out -- to be king of the hill himself.
Why knows? That line of defense could potentially backfire on Zimmerman's lawyer.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)he had no right to confront, question or detain Martin, so he claim of self-defense is complete bullshit. funny how some peoplle think he had some "right\' to question the young man
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)But Trayvon Martin was just walking down the street, minding his own business.
If he was looking in people's windows, or doing something that was actually suspicious, Zimmerman should have called the police, at most getting a picture of him, and staying out of the way. But Martin was only walking down the street. It's a clear case of "None Of Your Business, George".
morningfog
(18,115 posts)who started the fight the night Zimmerman killed him.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I am just pointing out what Zimmerman's defense appears to be.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)seems relevant to me.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)The texts suggest he was in fights, not that he sought to be in fights.
What does any of it have to do with the night he was murdered?
quadrature
(2,049 posts)nt
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Kennah
(14,256 posts)Unless Zimmerman knew in advance that Trayvon Martin had participated in "organized fights"--whatever the hell that is--then it wasn't information Zimmerman had at the time. As such, it isn't information that would have in any way influenced Zimmerman's actions.
I did FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) for a couple of years, I sparred, and I fought at tournaments. Were those "organized fights"? Seems that Zimmerman's defense team is testing the waters with loaded words to try out in court.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)some time ago. He's far from a thug. Organized fights are barbaric, but so is any kind of aggressive sport - boxing, wrestling, football.
I don't see participating in an organized fight as relevant to the man's murder.
quadrature
(2,049 posts)I never wrote that I thought that
Trayvon was a street thug.
OTOH, I find it hard to believe
that Tub-o-Lard could run down
Trayvon in a foot race.
cheyanne
(733 posts)Remember there is a difference between what happened and what can be proved in court . . .
Criticizing the societal environment is a necessary step combating racism and vigilantism, but it must not be confused with what can be proved in court.
If you are really interested in the law in the case,
Talk Left has a Zimmerman blog that outlines what the rules of evidence are in Florida, as well as the strategies that the prosecution and defense may use.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)which indicates that his intent may have included more than just talking.
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)"I shouted, 'Hey, get your ass back to Harlem' and waved my gun at him. For no reason whatsoever, he became enraged and started him me. Naturally, I killed him."
(why George is unlikely to take the stand)
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Jake Izzy
(130 posts)In my opinion, the jury would believe that Zimmerman dominated the fight against Trayvon more if they do not become aware that he participated in organized fights.
A non-fighter can be associated more to a defenseless man screaming for help than a fighter.
The use of marihuana is irrelevant in my opinion. Weed doesn't make people dangerous or violent.
atreides1
(16,076 posts)Which means Zimmerman's past will be put out for all to see...including his iteractions with law enforcement here in Virginia.
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)Is that correct?
Benton D Struckcheon
(2,347 posts)and the defense can't use any of the crap they're putting out either. They're trying to taint the jury pool.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)"taint the jury" is probably what you mean.
GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)Arizona v Fish, 2009. Fish was convicted of 2nd degree murder. The defense had not been able to introduce the type of person the deceased, Grant Kuenzli, was. Grant Kuenzli had a past that included violent aggression. The Appeals Court granted a new trial and reprimanded the trial court.
The character of both Martin and Z are important and relevant.
SCVDem
(5,103 posts)I was a starship captain.
So what?
Buzz Clik
(38,437 posts)It's only logical.
niyad
(113,275 posts)told to stand down) an unarmed, much smaller, teenager, and shot and killed him. period. (and let us not forget that, according to the video at the police station, zimmerman was not covered in blood, there was no indication that his head had been smacked into the concrete, his shirt was clean)
hack89
(39,171 posts)Look at OJ or Casey Anthony. Stuff like this may be enough to sway a jury if presented correctly.
niyad
(113,275 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)For reasons only god knows, you're rooting so laughably hard for a Zimmerman acquittal...You're just itching to rub my face in that shit, aren't you??
hack89
(39,171 posts)I just think the trial is not going to be a slam dunk - I thought Casey Anthony was guilty too.
Why would I want to rub it in your face? I don't know you from Adam. I don't recall anything previous interaction between us that would turn this into something personal.
Hyper_Eye
(675 posts)There are pictures of his head bleeding at the scene:
There is a picture of his bloodied nose at the scene:
There are pictures of the head wounds and nose wounds at the police station:
I do not support Zimmerman at all but we can't deny that there was a fight. The evidence shows there was a fight. I think arguing that Trayvon Martin did not engage in a physical altercation with George Zimmerman is a losing argument. The correct argument is that it doesn't matter! Zimmerman profiled and pursued Martin while carrying a deadly weapon. That's why Martin died that night. If a stranger followed me and then approached me in a threatening manner I would defend myself as violently as necessary. It was within Trayvon's rights to protect himself from bodily harm or death.
libodem
(19,288 posts)He knew he'd fucked up and needed a cover story. HE IS A LIAR.
Hyper_Eye
(675 posts)Your conspiracy theory isn't going to carry any weight in court. Arguing about the fight itself is pointless. The fight should never have happened because Zimmerman should not have pursued Trayvon. End of story.
knixphan
(4,442 posts)Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)None of them are deep. A few scratches and a bloody nose. I've had shaving cuts that bled about as much as some of those wounds on the back of the head. And all this came after he stalked Trayvon. And how much did he outweigh Trayvon by? A few cuts and he shot him?
What a wimp. Sorry but, last I checked, you can't shoot someone for giving you a bloody nose and a few cuts, especially after you've engaged in aggressive stalking behavior with them.
Hyper_Eye
(675 posts)Read what I wrote after the pictures. I make the same argument.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)however, what would have happened if the fight had continued without Zimmerman's gun. You don't know what he was thinking at the time, you also don't know what Martin was thinking or how much more fighting would continue. Hell, he could have cracked Zimmerman's head open on the pavement. Or, Zimmerman could have gotten away without a shot. That's why there are trials with evidence presented in cases such as this one.
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)To say that they were superficial is debatable.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)If the doctor still doesn't know by now, then he's just really not very good at his job. And if there was a fracture, then let's see the X-rays to prove it.
Oh and on edit: I've seen more than one broken nose before. Every one of them bled a hell of a lot more than Zimmerman is in that picture. Broken noses tend to not just lightly bleed. They gush.
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)And when was Zimmerman's nose photo taken?
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)That blood is fresh, still wet. And most broken noses produce enough blood to where it would have left dried smears all over his face, neck, and shirt, ect. All I see on Zimmerman is a little trickle down his lip. Every broken nose I've seen leaves a bloody mess all over. Dried smears, shirt stains...
And I'll repeat, when a doctor says a fractured nose is "likely" well, what was the final verdict? Is he just going to go on saying it was "likely" for the next ten years? Ever hear of an X-ray machine, doc? Was it fractured or wasn't it? Forget me and my testimony. What did the doctor say? the mere fact that I haven't heard a single thing about Trayvon breaking Zimmerman's nose is to me very strong evidence that it didn't happen, because I think every Zimmerman humper out there would be frothing at the mouth with such news.
So either it didn't happen, and that "family doctor" is lying, or he's the worst doctor in the world and doesn't know about x-rays.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)It was a bad break though. It felt like my nose was coming out of my ear, and three quarters of one nostril was blocked by cartilage. I had to have overnight surgery to get it fixed.
John2
(2,730 posts)pictures of Trayvon also and the coroner's report?
Hyper_Eye
(675 posts)The full report is available at the end of this article: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martin-autopsy_n_1525763.html
I do not intend to look for pictures of Trayvon post-mortem. That is not something I am prepared to see. Again, I am not disputing whether or not Zimmerman attacked Trayvon. The statement that I disputed was that Zimmerman arrived at the police station without injuries. That was based on an early low resolution photo taken by a security camera. Higher resolution photos have been released since then that show that initial assessment to be incorrect. I just want to make sure we are basing our opinions and arguments on the facts as they are currently known.
niyad
(113,275 posts)or marks anywhere on his person. sorry, those pics were taken later.
Hyper_Eye
(675 posts)It is impossible to tell if his nose is busted in those stills. Also his jacket is closed at the scene and open in that footage. It was raining that day. Consider that his shirt might be clean because he had his jacket zipped up during the incident.
This photo is clearly at the scene:
To say that the picture was taken later is to say that police were complicit after they were already under incredible scrutiny. I don't dive into conspiracy land with right-wingers and I'm not doing it with anyone else. You have to show me something more convincing than some grainy security camera footage, which is far from conclusive anyway, first.
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)Whether he was "very large" or not is a matter of opinion. Some would say that's very large, some would not.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)2 inches taller and 12 pounds lighter.
From Trayvon's perspective, Zimmerman would not have been "very large."
cvoogt
(949 posts)whatever could he do to protect himself? He just *had* to 'stand his ground' which of course means fatally shooting a teen. What a hero.
bubba4249
(11 posts)Doesn't everyone know two fist out performs a gun any day?
clarice
(5,504 posts)But it doesn't beat "Drunken Crane" technique.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)relevant to Zimmerman approaching and shooting an unarmed teen?
hack89
(39,171 posts)to show that Martin was violent. Remember that Zimmerman's defense is that he stop pursuing Martin and was headed back to his car when Martin attacked him.
There were no witnesses - all the evidence is circumstantial. What evidence the jury sees or does not see is critical.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)unless the defense has someone willing to testify that he/she personally saw Martin at these Fight Club championships...
erpowers
(9,350 posts)The things this article talks about are irrelevant to this case. Just because he supposedly fought in organized fights does not mean he would attack a person who was just walking around a community.
hack89
(39,171 posts)to paint him as a violent person. Character assassination is a popular legal tactic because it works - who knows what a Florida jury will believe.
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)Due to the conflicting reports from expert audio witnesses as to who screamed when and who said what, wouldn't the prosecution wish Trayvon to be viewed as a person not used to fighting?
Isn't it harder to bring a non-fighter to the ground and make him scream for help?
naaman fletcher
(7,362 posts)That is exactly how the defense will get this admitted.
Response to hack89 (Original post)
devilgrrl This message was self-deleted by its author.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)SoapBox
(18,791 posts)Period.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Jake Izzy
(130 posts)It goes like this. Killing is murder on certain circumstances, according to the law. But when asked why this particular shooting was a murder (according to the law), your answer would be as follows:
Q: Why was Zimmerman's shooting murder?
A: Because he's guilty of murder.
JI7
(89,247 posts)the Trayvon stuff sounds like stupid teenage talk to make themselves sound tough to others .
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)Maybe if you went to google (or even Bing) you wouldn't have to ask others whether this "police record of violence" exists.
2Design
(9,099 posts)are trying to paint his victim as the aggressor - if Zimmerman had stayed in his car as 911 operator told him - Trayvon would not be dead
Jake Izzy
(130 posts)Does the police call transcript mention a car?
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Zimmerman
(unclear) See if you can get an officer over here.
Dispatcher
Yeah we've got someone on the way, just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman
Okay. These (expletive) they always get away. Yep. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you would go past the clubhouse.
Dispatcher
So it's on the lefthand side from the clubhouse?
Zimmerman
No you go in straight through the entrance and then you make a left, uh, you go straight in, don't turn, and make a left. (expletive) he's running.
Dispatcher
He's running? Which way is he running?
Ambient sounds are heard which may be Zimmerman unbuckling his seat belt and his vehicle's "open door" chime sounding. The change in his voice and the sound of wind against his cell phone mic indicate that he has left his vehicle and is now walking. The dispatcher seems to pick up on these changes and sounds concerned when he later asks Zimmerman if he is following Martin.
Zimmerman
Down towards the other entrance to the neighborhood.
Dispatcher
Which entrance is that that he's heading towards?
Zimmerman
The back entrance
(expletive)(unclear)
This section of the recording has been the subject of much speculation. Some suggest that Zimmerman has just made a racial slur, but the audio is not clear.
Dispatcher
Are you following him?
Zimmerman
Yeah.
Dispatcher
Ok, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman
Ok.
http://bizsecurity.about.com/od/creatingpolicies/a/A-Transcript-Of-The-George-Zimmerman-Police-Call.htm
klyon
(1,697 posts)Zimmerman gave chase to a teenage boy (who had done nothing wrong and was minding his own business), then when the kid was beating the hell out of him he used deadly force to extract himself from the mess he had started and brought on himself.
Lock the asshole up for a long time. Guilty guilty guilty
Neighborhoods should be very careful who they allow to do neighborhood watch.
niyad
(113,275 posts)not go armed.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)walking in a darkly lit area...Trayvon Martin's past is used to paint him as deserving to be attacked. Sickening that they have fallen back on this defense.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)you might want to reconsider that particular legal theory.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)Don't start nutn', won't be nutn'.
hack89
(39,171 posts)alp227
(32,019 posts)He's got nothing to stand on. This "evidence" = DESPERATION. Keep digging yourself deeper and making yourself into the fool you are, George.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Kingofalldems
(38,452 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)he is guilty of murder in my mind.
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)Last edited Tue May 28, 2013, 11:55 AM - Edit history (1)
gunned-down teenage murder victim's juvenile braggadocio is being posted here.
agentS
(1,325 posts)He certainly wasn't attacking anyone in the street when Mr. Zimmerman accosted him.
Maybe he wanted to become a MMA style fighter, maybe it was a hobby? We don't know cause he's dead and can't tell us!
But, unless he's on record as having attacked random people in the streets, then this doesn't help the defense.
Frustratedlady
(16,254 posts)What was the kid supposed to do? Stand there and take it without defending himself? Talk about aggressive. Zimmerman was the aggressor.
hack89
(39,171 posts)But with no eyewitnesses this trial is not a slam dunk. I thought Casey Anthony was guilty as hell too.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)You confront a guy, you're carrying a gun, and YOUR life is in danger because he took part in organized fights?
Someone please tell me why the stand your ground law only seems to apply to the guy who isn't African American?
hack89
(39,171 posts)Zimmerman's defense is that he stopped pursuing Martin and was walking back to his car when Martin attacked him. For him to pull that off, he has to paint Martin as a violent person.
It is pure desperation but with no eyewitnesses who knows what a Florida jury will do.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)Zimmerman politely shook Martin's hand and wished him a good night before walking away. He also gave Martin his phone number so they could keep in touch. Oh, and Zimmerman complimented Martin on his shoes and the rest of his ensemble, which inexplicably caused Martin to fly into a homicidal rage.
Fortunately, Zimmerman had a gun.
hack89
(39,171 posts)I think his story is BS.
WeekendWarrior
(1,437 posts)RebelOne
(30,947 posts)GreenStormCloud
(12,072 posts)W-6, John Good says he saw the fight and saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, beating him up. Good claims that he yelled at Martin to stop but Martin continued to hit Z.
Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)...at least try to enter this info into the trial. Whether it's allowed or not is another question.
But if you were the prosecutor would you rather have the text message: "he got mo hits cause in da 1st round he had me on da ground an I couldn't do ntn."
or a text message: "heading for the MLK non-violence meeting" ?
Arkana
(24,347 posts)He wasn't armed. Zimmerman was. I don't care how skilled a fighter or boxer you are, a gun changes the equation.
hack89
(39,171 posts)they are going to smear Martin's character to paint him as a violent person.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)not a word to ID himself. Sometimes the stalked fight back like their life depends on it.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)The old stalker hung around with the people in this video. They're a bunch of assholes who hit people from behind.
Published on Dec 29, 2010
A witness with a camera caught a homeless man being punched by a Sanford police lieutenant's son, who was never arrested or charged for the incident.
In the amateur video, the homeless man is seen trying to break up a fight when the police officer's son, Justin Collison, sneaks up from behind and punches the man in the back of the head.
He knocks out a homeless man in the first 5 seconds of this vid.
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="
ileus
(15,396 posts)or something along those lines?
MrSlayer
(22,143 posts)But painful to read. What torture the language is enduring in those texts.
hack89
(39,171 posts)who knows what a jury might think.
This "evidence" should be inadmissible. We'll have to see what the judge does.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Martin's hoody was gray with red lining.
Someone who thinks they are clever should start an OP about that... nothing is irrelevant. Who knows what a jury may think.
hack89
(39,171 posts)then it might be a hint of a possible defense strategy - which would be very relevant if it actually works.
The OP shows Zimmerman's defense strategy - his defense is that he stopped pursuing Martin and was walking back to the car when Martin attacked him. Now I think that is a BS argument but it explains why they would want to smear Martin as a violent person with a history of fighting.
MADem
(135,425 posts)you/him/her" is open to scrutiny. His bouncer days, his girlfriend-beating days, all of that good "Temper, TEMPER!!!" stuff is On. The. Table.
Assuming "evidence will allow." I hope the judge slaps the shit out of the defense for trying to adujicate the case via the media.
It doesn't matter if Trayvon WAS an "aggressive thug." It wouldn't matter if he was mean to his mama, or pulled the cat's tail.
Georgie boy stalked that teen and killed him, even after he was TOLD to back the hell off.
still_one
(92,174 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Even if this isn't alowed to get introduced during trial, it makes it that much more difficult to find unbiased jurors with Martin publically being painted as a violent drug using thug.
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)He could have been taking about a video game he played and fought there.
marshall
(6,665 posts)That's the way our justice system works.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,181 posts)Zimmerman's story:
Zimmerman sees Martin walking. Zimmerman thinks Martin is suspicious. Zimmerman gets out of the car. Supposedly Martin runs, and Zimmerman chases him. Zimmerman supposedly loses Martin, starts to walk back to his car.
Then Zimmerman claims he was "ambushed" by Martin.
Ambushed. By a guy who was being chased by a strange man for reasons unknown. Instead of either a) hiding out until the coast is clear, or b) heading back to the house where he was staying, we are supposed to believe that c) Martin "ambushed" Zimmerman. Why?
Ambushed, my ass.
I know there was a physical confrontation between Zimmerman and Martin. But I seriously, seriously, seriously doubt it resulted because of an unprovoked "ambush" by Trayvon Martin.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)That doesn't mean it would be ok to shoot him just for being in the neighborhood. Their "evidence" is baloney. Zimmerman didn't have a right to shoot an unarmed kid.
tblue
(16,350 posts)And Zimmy knew this about him.
Immaterial. Isn't that the legal term?
hack89
(39,171 posts)the point the post was to show how far the defense would go to smear Trayvon.
MillennialDem
(2,367 posts)his mind that Zimmerman could harm him and thus give him the right to self defense
AND possibly
Did Zimmerman give up / surrender and Trayvon continued to beat him?
It seems the latter never happened, the former is very likely to be true. Zimmerman chased Martin on foot (and possibly cut him off with a shortcut) from 7:11 to 7:16pm. That's FIVE MINUTES Trayvon Martin was running away. And he still can't lose a guy who then confronts him yelling at him.
Seems to me that is reasonable for Trayvon to assume that Zimmerman either meant him harm or was crazy and unpredictable. Thus, he had the right to defend himself until either Zimmerman gave up or was KOed.