Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

[Bucky]

Source: Catholic OnLine

Pope Francis says atheists can do good and go to heaven too!

Pope Francis has good news for atheists. Jesus died and was raised for them as well. His redemptive embrace was for all, not just a chosen few.The choice to accept its reach is our own. The Holy Father was not teaching anything new. In fact, this hope that all who do not yet know God are not only capable of doing good - but will progress toward that knowledge of God by doing good - is ancient. The Church wants all men and women to be saved.

LOS ANGELES, CA (Catholic Online) - The Holy Father is full of surprises, born of true and faithful humility. On Wednesday he declared that all people, not just Catholics, are redeemed through Jesus, even atheists.

However, he did emphasize there was a catch. Those people must still do good. In fact, it is in doing good that they are led to the One who is the Source of all that is good. In essence he simply restated the hope of the Church that all come to know God, through His Son Jesus Christ.

Read more: http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=51077

[snappyturtle]

1. I think I'm going to really like this new Pope Francis! I bet he rattles

some cages with this statement.

[HockeyMom]

2. Especially the Fundies

Only BELIEVING matters. I think they need to read "their Bibles" about what Jesus said to the thief next to him on the cross.

[Bucky]

4. I may not agree with Francis on a few items, but he sure pisses off the right people

[kestrel91316]

18. Hell, for fundies it isn't even about belief. It's about FAKING belief by saying the

Magic Jesus Passwords (TM).

[ET Awful]

20. It's about being believier than thou.

Or pretending to be believier than thou.

[IrishAyes]

31. For fundies, it's about trying to convince the other guy that HE'S going to hell

If he is, they'll be right there with him!

[RKP5637]

151. And as a cover up for the lewd thoughts that run through

their minds ... yet another study ... the super-religious are the most avid consumers of porn, for example. ... based on geo-locations.

[rso]

67. pope

Very impressed so far. His humble ways in Argentina, his refusal to accept the trappings of the Vatican and now this. This Pope has shaken things up more in a couple of months than have hundreds of popes in over two thousand years. Still a way go, but an amazing start indeed.

[The Magistrate]

3. And Justification By Works v. Justification By Faith, Sir, Goes Into Overtime....

[IrishAyes]

33. Don't confuse cause with result.

No conflict there. Saved by faith, but it's a nonexistent dead 'faith' if not demonstrated by good works. So both are necessary, one as cause, the other as effect.

[The Magistrate]

42. I Have Read The Epistle Of James, Ma'am

I am familiar with the matter, and with the basic divide which separates the initial Protestant wave from the Vatican.

The new Pope does seem, at least on the sketchy report above, to be saying that a person without faith at all, at least as usually defined in Christian belief, may still find himself or herself saved, by works.

[IrishAyes]

43. And I said nothing different.

I said faith w/o works is dead, not works w/o faith is dead.

Just so we're clear on that, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

47. You Did Not, Ma'am, Quite True

But it is pretty hard to extract the position that works without faith in Christ can bring Salvation out of standard Christian dogmas.

[IrishAyes]

54. Sincerely, Dear Sir:

Theological matters make a lot more sense when one does not seek to deify the Holy Bible itself by saying every word in it is both literal and exactly true. Sensible folk must look at the history of religion as it unfolds and hopefully improves. With the loftiest motives the medical profession used to kill more patients than it cured; but I can't let that historical fact make me think every doctor today is out to get me! Truth doesn't change, but human perception and grasp of it varies widely. In some places at least, we occasionally seem to creep forward, and I joy in every tiny step as well as honoring those who can nudge us along.

[The Magistrate]

55. Note That I Am Not Criticizing The Pontiff, Ma'am

Your view of the matter is one that I find congenial and reasonable, and have no particular quarrel with, hard old infidel though I am.

[IrishAyes]

62. Then good sir, I trust we shall meet and greet on the other side

to continue this conversation so long as it suits us both. I have an idea you'll be good company.

[pangaia]

56. Faith without consciousness is useless.

[RILib]

150. IrishAyes

Arguing about church dogma is so boring. You're apparently Roman Catholic, I'm not. No one elected you God.

[bitchkitty]

162. Boring?

One would expect religious dogma in a thread about religious dogma.

[GoneOffShore]

5. The comments thread at the story are just amazing.

Amazingly bad that is.

But only to be expected.

And here's one atheist who really doesn't care what Bergoglio says.

Fascinating stuff though. In a train wrecky sort of way.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

6. given that atheism and agnostic thinking is outpacing every other religion

in terms of growth of members, he probably sees the writing on the wall.

[BlueStreak]

77. It is called market segmentation

They have identified a potential customer base that isn't impressed with salvation and eternal life, but they might go for the incense.

A business had to keep its eyes open for new opportunities.

Smart man, this new pope.

[sarcasmo]

165. +1

[awoke_in_2003]

7. I'd rather laugh with the sinners...

than cry with the saints

[amuse bouche]

8. Wow

What a self righteous pompous ass

Hey Popey, you and your god are to many, frauds.

Your cult...I do not wish to partake

[IrishAyes]

35. But you love to stand on the sidelines and throw barbs.

In which secular ethical system is that acceptable? It's certainly nothing to brag about, when you're doing the very same thing that you bitch about religion doing. You can shout that you're the only decent and smart ones in the room as loudly as you wish, and that won't make it true.

You're full of terminal hubris.

[whathehell]

50. +1 n/t

[amuse bouche]

84. But darling

I am the smartest one in the room.

Honestly, people that support the pedophile factory and all its other vile stances, I find repulsive

[StrongBad]

107. Here's a protip:

If you have to proclaim yourself as the smartest person in the room, you're definitely not.

[amuse bouche]

111. Says who? You?

[StrongBad]

117. Nope, just life and anyone that's achieved anything worthwhile.

[KittyWampus]

128. I've often observed that the smartest people are often the last to speak & opine.

[amuse bouche]

129. So you want me to get in line and wait my turn?

Last edited Sat May 25, 2013, 12:19 AM - Edit history (1)

Are you the one who will give me the .....ok go ahead signal?

Isn't that what the masters said to their slaves?

That is one sorry ass try at suppression. Better luck with someone else deary


Btw..Religion is nothing but mind control, to keep the masses in line. A place where bigots go to rationalize their hatred of others and a place for criminals, like pedophiles to seek safe haven

And that is just the tip of the iceberg

[crim son]

153. Here's another shovel.

It appears you've worn yours out.

[amuse bouche]

155. Nah you keep it

or pass it to one of the pedophile endorsers and fraud lovers

[amuse bouche]

131. So you are concerened about what I may or may not achieve in life?

Last edited Sat May 25, 2013, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

And you are giving me success advice?

This is some hilarious circle jerk. Truly

You have no idea what I have achieved, so try your impotent verve somewhere else

[bitchkitty]

163. Says me.

I am the smartest person in the room, not you. You heathen you.

[amuse bouche]

167. Clearly you do not know the meaning of 'heathen'

I don't worship Germanic or Norse gods and goddesses.

I love when fools disprove their own assertions. Smartest? Not even close

Thanks for the chuckle

[bitchkitty]

168. Hey, I was joking.

You know what they say to do if you can't take a joke? Maybe you should do that.

[amuse bouche]

170. I said thanks for the chuckle

What do you want...applause?

[bitchkitty]

171. Thought you were laughing at me, not with me.

Sorry - I just moved, and I'm still in chaos. I guess I'm hypersensitive.

[Ter]

112. Perhaps you would have rather him say they will burn in Hell?

n/t

[amuse bouche]

132. Heaven..Hell

No matter.... both are non-existant

[snooper2]

161. Where is hell located? I can't find it on google maps...

[Elmergantry]

9. No he didnt

"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!
********************************************

There is a difference between redemption and salvation. He said Jesus redeemed all mankind, including athiests. That means Jesus made it POSSIBLE for man to be SAVED. To be saved we have to believe in Jesus according to the Church.

[Malik Agar]

37. What if...

Doing bad deeds means that you don't truly believe in Jesus...

Doing good deeds/believing in Jesus' way of life means that you believe in Jesus.

[Elmergantry]

51. I dont think your first sentence is operable..

Becasue no one is perfect, not matter how genuine your belief is. After all, Jesus didnt come for the perfect, he came to help the imperfect.

On your second sentence, that wouldnt work if your first sentence was true. Becasue, again, no one has ever been perfect and only did good deeds there entire life... So there never could never be a true believer by your definition

[IrishAyes]

38. There's a responsible point of view

That suggests our final decisions are not made on this earth, but only after we pass over. Then if we see goodness and truth but prefer to continue existing in an evil place, maybe that can be arranged.

Just know that many erudite Catholics don't believe in a literal hell, but rather a figurative one - the separation from what would indeed heal our wounds and make us happy. You're welcomed into the circle of warmth and light anytime you decide that's what you actually want. It's up to you. If that's not free will, I don't know what is.

[pangaia]

59. I am Buddhist and respect your beliefs.

But I do not 'believe' in the idea of being 'saved.'

[Elmergantry]

80. I didnt say they were neccessarily MY beliefs,

Last edited Thu May 23, 2013, 10:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Im just saying what the Catholic Church says...But as someone who knows the Catholic faith quite well (If I may humbly say so), "redemption" and "salvation" are two differnet things in Catholicism (not so much in Protestanism, but Im not an expert in the Protestant faiths,too many of them to keep track of)
What the Pope said is not groundbreaking per Catholic theology, but becasue of ignorance of Church teaching, many people are thinking it is.

What the pope says is that Jesus's sacrifice made it possible for all of mankind to have a shot at getting to heaven aka "redemtion". The candidate still has to "do their part" i.e, accept Jesus as your Savior, Thats when you get "saved"...The Pope said nothing about the "saving" part. He then added after the redemption bit that everyone can "do good" for the advancement of peace, (not for salvation). EVERYONE, including athisets. So in no way was he talking about "Justification By Works Alone"

So do you have to be Christian, and/or Catholic to be saved? the Church says YES. However the Church does say that there could be exceptions made aka the "Baptism of Desire"...I could go into that but Im sure as a Buddist you probably lost interest already ..

Regards,

Elmer

[pangaia]

99. Your statement that 'I am sure as a Buddhist you probably lost interest already'

is.... which of many words could I chose?.... how about-- based on lack of information.

[Elmergantry]

115. Sorry I meant no offense...

I just felt perhaps you wouldnt want to hear me rambling on and on about something you didnt subcribe to.

[pangaia]

124. No offense taken.

I read your entire post and found it interesting.

[Elmergantry]

127. Cool, Thanks! NT

[xtraxritical]

86. This is HUGE for the Catholic Church. It reverses millenia of Catholic dogma.

[sofa king]

149. No....

... it just pretends for the moment that the dogma didn't exist and won't soon return. But it did, and it will, and if I hold my breath the wisp of tolerance will soon dissipate, as it always has and always will.

[loyalsister]

90. Just do good, he said

He told the story of a Catholic who asked a priest if even atheists had been redeemed by Jesus.

"Even them, everyone," the pope answered, according to Vatican Radio. "We all have the duty to do good," he said.

"Just do good, and we'll find a meeting point,"

[Elmergantry]

97. Wasnt referring to heaven as the meeting point i.e salvation

But rather coming to peace and understanding here on earth. I thought he might have meant heaven too when I first read it.

Trust me, the Church doesnt change Dogma via a simple sermon

[loyalsister]

113. I don't care if he meant heaven

The point is he undoubtedly did say SOMETHING that suggested he doesn't believe atheists are going to hell.
As you said the Church doesn't change dogma. He went against the church by not denouncing those of us who do not believe. It's a huge step.

[Elmergantry]

116. He didnt say athiests are going to heaven, or hell.

He didnt say anything in that regard. But if you want to take a nonstatment as a "suggestion" athiests arent going to hell, I guess thats your perogative.

[Liberalagogo]

10. Then how come being gay is a sin

and condemned by his church?

Explain that one please, and then maybe we'll talk about any good you're doing, Pope.

[IrishAyes]

39. Don't expect/demand perfection from Francis

When you complain about your idea that he expects it from you.

If you can forgive a slight pun, Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Liberalagogo]

72. All I'm saying is

I'm not going to sit in the back of the religion bus anymore. If he's going to be accepting of ALL people, he better make it damn CLEAR he includes the LGBT crowd his church has been bashing for centuries.

[IrishAyes]

79. Well, keep nudging HIM, then

Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

I have an idea, or at least strong hope, that when medical science continues to pile proof upon proof of just how much we're hardwired during fetal development, and more people begin to realize this notion of sexual orientation being a choice is ludicrous, then perhaps society in general will begin to expand its acceptance of differences. What, begin? It's already in motion. This matter has a long way to go, true; but it's begun.

That said, especially if you are young, don't be surprised by what you might see even in your lifetime. I've already seen a lot in mine, and I'm far from young. When I'm gone, remember what the old lady said. Be the change you want to see.

And don't remind me how often I fail to take my own (unoriginal) advice meanwhile. Just because the choir veers offkey at times doesn't make the song wrong.

[Arugula Latte]

145. Why support a backwards institution, though?

That church clearly hates gays and women -- "not perfect" is a huge huge huge understatement.

[Elmergantry]

52. I never heard the Church say that. NT

[Liberalagogo]

71. Then obviously you weren't listening. NT

[Elmergantry]

82. Never heard the Church say having same-sex attraction is sinful.

The attraction to them is just another type of temptation according to them, and I certainly have heard the Church state it is sinful to act on those attractions. But temptation is not a sin by their definition.

However I have heard PLENTY of fundy churches say having the attraction is a sin...i.e. "its a choice" BS..

[Liberalagogo]

88. Semantics

Last edited Fri May 24, 2013, 09:11 AM - Edit history (1)

is the refuge of a coward.

[totodeinhere]

142. I know this doesn't make much sense, but the official church position is that

being gay is not a sin in and of itself. However acting on being gay by engaging in gay sex is a sin. To me this is ridiculous. How could they expect anyone, gay or straight to remain celibate for their entire lives? Heck, we know from studies that almost no Catholic priests are celibate even though they are supposed to be.

[bitchkitty]

164. Which studies?

That's a new one on me. Can you provide a reference and/or a link to support your statement that almost all priests are not celibate?

[totodeinhere]

166. Google is your friend.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2519&dat=19900814&id=cIBeAAAAIBAJ&sjid=42ENAAAAIBAJ&pg=1382,4510823

[bitchkitty]

169. Thanks.

Very interesting - I was not aware of this. It's not "almost all", it's 50% according to the 1990 article, but that's still quite a few.

[dballance]

11. He's So off the reservation. I see a John Paul I coming.

Early, mysterious death. Maybe a stroke. Those are unpredictable. More believable than heart failure if he has no history of heart disease.

[Bucky]

12. You're one of THOSE?

Good luck with that.

[dballance]

27. Why yes, I am.

Let's see. Crusades, inquisition, systemic cover up of pedophilia, doctrine that tends to change base on whichever infallible Pope is in office. Last Pope, Benny the Rat, and his minions sent Cardinals to oversee those wild and crazy US nuns who were not spending enough time proselytizing because they were too busy helping the poor and others in need.

Now, this Pope says things like helping the poor is important, perhaps as important as proselytizing, and now this about atheists. An almost complete reversal in some pretty established doctrine that might not be appreciated by the Vatican establishment.

So, what's a little assassination among friends to reestablish the previous status-quo? Not all that far-fetched. I'm sure they'd only do it if it's God's will.

[IrishAyes]

40. Since you're the only person available with a brain and a heart, then.. gasp! RU GOD?

[dballance]

48. I Fail to See How Your Post is Relevant to Mine. When did I liken myself to God?

I never said I was the only person with a brain or a heart. In fact, I didn't claim to possess either. I never likened myself to any god. You seemed to have decided those for me all on you own. In the future I'd appreciate your not assigning me motives or intentions.

Perhaps if you spent less time trying to be snarky and cute and actually presented some sort of argument or facts upon which we can agree or disagree your posts might have some meaning. If you don't like my criticizing the hierarchy of the Catholic Church then respond with some reasons why I shouldn't. Don't just do a hit-and-run insult. It's not very productive.

[IrishAyes]

61. Well, I'm right here, so it's hardly hit-and-run although eventually I might wander off.

I didn't even say you shouldn't criticize ANY heirarchy anywhere. My facetious reaction to what seems to me somewhat overblown criticism (if not downright belliegerence, perhaps) is at least as reasonable as your behavior. Or so it seems to me. Obviously not to you. But you'd might as well expect criticism from someone else when you feel free to offer it yourself.

Put another way, I fail to see where you have room to squawk and then question my right to squawk back. If that's not productive enough for you, too bad. Or can I only be productive by agreeing with you?????????????

[dballance]

76. Wow, Just a little overly touchy about the Church aren't you?

It's not as if I've said anything that hasn't been said before in spades. In fact, I was rather mild compared to what I've read in the past.

[IrishAyes]

81. Let's see....

You kick me in the shins, it's highly honorable; I kick back, that makes me 'a little overly touchy'? You're not even being the least bit fair here. What's fair for the gander...

Yes, yes, I know... I'm not supposed to respond in kind, according to some people. But I've always thought a good sharp rap across an aggressor's knuckles is actually doing him a service.

And now since you show signs of wearing this subject out, I'm going to do as promised earlier and go on to greener pastures. You've just about dug this one out. Chasing each other around the tree gets boring after awhile.

[RainDog]

87. you chose to attack this person. just to be clear

that person talked about the corruption and history of bad decisions, misuse of power, and all other earthly demonstrations of charlatanism of a religion that you happen to agree with - and in order to allow yourself to engage in attacks, you claim this is about you. or maybe it is, since you defend its stances.

or maybe a part of you knows your position is indefensible beyond it being your tradition, and that's why you attack this person.

and maybe that's why you tell gay people on DU to give the church a little time to get over their bigotry...I mean, it's only been thousands of years.

and I assume you would also tell women to give the church a little time to get over its misogyny, as well, given the opportunity. Because, really, can't expect a backward belief system to deal with its own repulsively sexist views now, can we?

Yes. religion is all about grace and works.

Which the church has amply demonstrated it is lacking.

Frankly, it repulses me to see women defend this misogynist institution. How many liberals defend protestant fundamentalism and all the lies and homophobia and misogyny within those beliefs? But for some reason the catholic church is supposed to get a pass.

what a joke.

[Kingofalldems]

13. Opus Dei not liking this one.

[IrishAyes]

41. Opus Dei not God.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

95. Opus Dei evil personified.

[geomon666]

14. Good lookin' out

[otherone]

19. good stuff

[Submariner]

15. They sure changed their tune

I remember sister Perpetual Agony teaching me in third or fourth grade (mid-1950s) that ALL NON-CATHOLICS will BURN IN THE FLAMES OF HELL FOR ETERNITY.....PERIOD. End of story.

What is amazing is that it is not a god that shows up in front of everyone and makes the rule change, but a simple man who changes the rule because he see's it as a way of stemming the abandonment of his church. A PR game move. Just like the disappearance of the eating meat on Friday ban.

[dflprincess]

70. In the school year of 1960-61

while being prepared for First Communion the Catechism sister shocked us all by telling us that while it was a blessing to be Catholic, anyone who led a good life could get into heaven.

On the one hand I was relieved as my paternal grandmother was Lutheran and I had wondered about this (never having the nerve to ask anyone). But, on the other hand, I was already put out about girls not being able to be altar boys (as I thought of the job back then) and, being a born heathen, wondered why bother going to all the trouble of being Catholic if anyone - even someone who didn't go to church could get into heaven. I put the question to my mother who replied "I wonder about that myself."

[muntrv]

16. Has Mel Gibson's head exploded yet? How about Puckcannon's?

[kestrel91316]

17. Talibornagain heads asplodin' right and left!

[Richard D]

21. I'm already seeing FB posts . . .

. . . saying he's the anit-christ for saying this.
Dumb as dirt.

[Posteritatis]

28. Anyone claiming so-and-so's the antichrist would be claiming that about any pope, anyway. (nt)

[msongs]

22. catholic online is not a news source, this is religious propaganda, not LBN nt

[Posteritatis]

29. Uhh, it's been in the news just about everywhere the last day or so. (nt)

[OneAngryDemocrat]

23. KJV Romans 2:1-16

KJV Romans 2:1-16

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

[KatyMan]

103. How can people read that?

all of that shew and judgeth and do unto and tortured sentences...not to disparage the message of what you posted, but jeebus!

[truthisfreedom]

24. Likewise, mr Pope, you could move your church into the present by eliminating your

ridiculous anti-choice and anti-birth control positions and you'll have exactly the same chance of getting into heaven as a good atheist. It's all a matter of perspective, sir.

[JI7]

25. good, i hope he continues to go after capital exploitation

rather than the same bs about gays, abortion, non believers etc.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Don't promise shit you can't deliver.

Let's see this 'heaven' thing first, then we'll talk.

[penndragon69]

30. Same old crap, new pope.

Bottom line is this....you can still go to heaven
but you will have to accept our CULT ideology
to get in the gate.

Offensive to the last.

Religion is a disease, period.

[IrishAyes]

63. How is it offensive not to wish a place on someone who'd be unhappy there?

You're welcome to go your own way, pal. Just don't stand in my way. I'll send you a card.

[amuse bouche]

133. I could not agree more

Religion = cult and mental illness

It's shocking how many haven't evolved away from this nonsense

[davidthegnome]

32. Breaking with tradition once more...

Interesting. I don't like religion, but I do like this Pope.

[AverageJoe90]

34. Good rhetoric, but I'm not so sure I can quite believe all of it just yet.

He talks a REALLY good game, I'll give him that. But there are a LOT of unanswered questions I have, including his whereabouts during the "dirty war" in the '70s and '80s in Argentina.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/comment/2013/03/pope-francis-jorge-bergoglio-argentina-dirty-war.html
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/19/survivors-reflect-on-pope-francis-role-in-argentinas-bloody-dirty-war/

[YeahSureRight]

44. Will there be pork in heaven?

Jesus did keep kosher and being the son of god would most likely mean god keeps kosher too.
So kinda pointless to even go if there are no ribs in heaven.

Glad I am an atheist and don’t have to worry about no pork, no shrimp, no lobster, no cheese burgers……in heaven.
For those going have fun!

[Sognefjord]

45. Old Polka: In Heaven There is No Beer

That's why we drink it here.

[Gore1FL]

57. And when we're gone from here

Our friends will be drinking all our beer.

[Myrina]

60. I know that polka!!

oh the childhood memories!

In heaven there is no beer
Thats why we drink it here
And when we're gone from here
All our friends will be drinking all our beer!


gotta love growing up in Wisconsin!!

[malthaussen]

65. Got the band to play that song at my Senior Prom.:)

But it is bogus, of course. Heaven could not be heaven without beer.

-- Mal

[IrishAyes]

69. Don't worry; nothing can spoil our fun, neither here nor there

Jesus kept kosher out of respect for the culture into which he was sent to minister. Your logic is flawed. Jesus came to fulfill the law. Kosher is no longer necessary, though it does have much to recommend it healthwise and otherwise to this very day. As for what goes on in heaven, why worry about it since you prefer other climes? When you tire of trying to run on your own your own universe which you didn't make and can't fully understand, feel free to join us. We'll leave the light on.

[Caretha]

78. Judge Much?

[IrishAyes]

83. Call it a strong opinion (to which I'm entitled) or 'judging', whichever you please

I'm simply welcoming him to go his own way but declining to predict a rosy outcome. And I seriously doubt he's extending the same, so I don't feel too naughty. Sorry. And at least I'm standing by an open door (not pretending to be a gatekeeper) instead of slamming it shut in his face. Or yours. Or anyone's.

Please explain how my deportment fails to meet your standards.

On second thought, maybe don't. I've heard it all before. This entire thread is, uh... getting threadbare.

[Caretha]

100. I have a tendency

to call it like it is.

Have a nice day.

[YeahSureRight]

96. Jesus kept kosher out of respect for the culture?

I am sure you can provide the biblical references that support your claim that a nice jewish boy from galiee did not have to keep kosher.

If Jesus was only keeping kosher out of respect how come he did not pass out cornbread and pork chops instead of loaves and fishes to prove his point that keeping kosher was BS.

[Moonwalk]

154. By that logic, Christians should not be following any laws that relate to Jewish culture....

...so why do Christians read or quote--as laws to follow--any of the Old Testament, which is purely the story of the Jews for Jews? The kosher laws are in the same place as the law that many quote as justifying gay sex as sinful. Shouldn't Christians--Catholic Church included--have tossed all that out as culture laws that need not be followed? Ten commandments included? (Note that the Jews break the commandment laws against killing and stealing when it comes to the Canaanites--slaughtering every man, woman and child down to babes in the womb. They are not punished by god for this. Why not? Because those laws only apply to the tribes. Don't kill each other--but killing outsiders is fine, especially if it's to steal their land which the Jewish god says you can have. Thus, the ten commandments are not for everyone, just the Jews in regards to other Jews. So why should Christians quote those laws as ones to follow--especially the ones about how to worship god? They're no more for non-Jews than the kosher laws are.)

Seems Catholicism cherry-picked there. Either all of the old testament laws for the Jews were cultural and Jesus was only following them for that reason, and so no Christians need follow them, or they were laws that god meant for everyone and everyone should be following them.

When you tire of trying to run on your own universe which the church made for you and which it fully understands but you don't (which should worry you), feel free to join us on the rational side. We'll leave the light on--because science, not religion, allowed lights to be left on, right?

[Moonwalk]

152. Tofu burger with tofu cheese and tofu bacon...

Totally kosher and you'll never know the difference

[Gore1FL]

46. If this was 1900 years sooner, the world would be a better place now. n/t

[Zoeisright]

49. Gee. The pedophile enabler says that

non-pedophiles can be good people too!

Who the fuck cares.

[whathehell]

53. Right, because we all know that there

could not possibly be any pedophile enabling atheists.

[Arugula Latte]

146. Atheists did not orchestrate massive cover-ups of institutionalized child rape

going back decades, like bigwigs of the Catholic Church sure as shit did.

[whathehell]

148. Well, that took awhile

but you're on Ignore anyway, so I decided ahead of time that I'm not very interested in your comments.

[trekbiker]

58. they'll have to drag this athiest kicking and screaming

thru the pearly gates into that nightmare they call heaven.

Imagine an eternity of boredom. Kissing gods ass. Surrounded by people you dont want to be around.

if there is a Hell that is surely it

[Auntie Bush]

64. I'll be happy to go wherever my dogs are. Hell...wherever animals are.

That's where I want to be.

[madmom]

108. HA.. that's it, that's what they mean by atheists will go to hell!

[Arugula Latte]

147. Exactly. Who'd want to be around a bunch of uptight religious zealots for all eternity?

Damn. I'll take the firey pit over that any day.

[MannyGoldstein]

66. That's awesome. It will increase the peace.

Give him time, and Lord knows what he'll do.

[Duer 157099]

68. But can God create a boulder too large for Him to lift?

Of course He can!! Wait...

Same logic. Unless this pope thinks that it is biblical to contradict Paul who said that works alone won't save you. Oh the confusion.

If not by works, then by faith, yet an atheist has no faith, so how... oh nevermind.

[sakabatou]

73. I like this pope

[Phlem]

74. Still

so impressed he's the official mouth of god.

-p

[Benton D Struckcheon]

75. I am being placed in the position of my grandfather.

He was another skeptical one, but when Pope John XXIII and the Second Vatican Council came around, according to my dad (I was too young and never really knew him) he said "I like this Pope". History just may be rhyming here...

[eallen]

85. And we atheists.... don't give a tinker's damn.

I'm sorry, but that is such a small, small change in an official belief system populated by a God, demi-gods, and mystical beings, prescribing all sorts of behavior for nonsense reasons, and demanding the blindest of faith from its adherents, that all I can do is shrug.

Let me know when he rescinds the prohibition on contraception, asking why anyone would ever be so crazed as to think condoms are wrong.

Or when he stops priests from performing exorcisms, because the notion of demon possession is a wicked myth.

Then, I'll sit up and say, <i>"hey, this Pope is dragging the Church into the 19th century! Yippee!"</i>

[whathehell]

109. Of course you don't -- That's why you spent four paragraphs responding to it.

[toobigtofit]

91. But I don't wanna go ta Heaven, Mr Popeman

Last edited Fri May 24, 2013, 03:46 AM - Edit history (1)

BWAAAAHHHAH!!
But I don't wanna go ta Heaven, Mr Popeman. I don't wanna hafta be sitting around for all eternity, interco

ursing wid Revs Jerry Fatwell, Pat Robberson, Billie Grayham, Freddie Phelps, and Saint Gomer Reagun. So scuzme Mr. Popeman, but yore Heaven sounds like Hell ta me. So thanks but no thanks..

PS Actually, might your unseemly offer of Heavenly residence seem a bit blasphemous in the eyes of your flocks of faithful sheep?

[hrmjustin]

105. Welcome to DU my friend!

[wickerwoman]

92. Yet another great reason not to believe in God

You can still get the payoff without all the tedium, judgmentalism and weekly bribes.

Good stuff.

[FlaGranny]

98. No worse than

the fundy belief that you can be saved and once you are, whatever you do afterward is automatically forgiven - no matter how atrocious.

Even better stuff.

[bitchkitty]

93. I heart Francis! n/t

[Fearless]

94. The best way to get people to do good things is to bribe them

Sad but true.

[djean111]

101. Yes, but do you think the Pope is trying to bribe atheists here?

That's insulting, if so. And weird.
In any event, the current pope could be absolutely fantastic, he could ordain gay women as priests, and personally conduct gay weddings in St. Peter's, and hand out condoms and birth control pills before every mass, for example - and that would not be any reason at all for an atheist to believe in any sort of god.
So I am not sure why it matters if anyone likes him or not, it seems to have nothing to do with whether someone believes in a god, or not. And the atheist mention is just odd, to me, it doesn't rock my head or world or whatever.

[Fearless]

106. Not necessarily

Just in general. Rather I still find it insulting because he's trying to forcibly include atheists in a Catch 22.

[greiner3]

102. And Colbert's response;

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/05/24/colbert-if-atheists-can-go-to-heaven-i-want-my-catholicism-refunded/

Colbert: If atheists can go to heaven, I want my Catholicism refunded

Maybe my parents can get the refund for 4 children @12 years apiece!

[jmowreader]

104. His next statement on the matter of heaven needs be...

...that a mere statement of faith is insufficient for one to achieve heaven; that a life of Christ-like living is also necessary.

Basically, saying "I believe, I believe" then cheating, stealing, committing frauds and adulteries, and expecting to go to heaven because you attend church on Sundays is a false doctrine, and a confession of faith on your deathbed after a life lived as scum is also a false doctrine. In other words, attacking Jack Chick as hard as he's always attacked the Catholic Church.

[hughee99]

110. I imagine heaven would be like hell for atheists.

[whathehell]

120. Only if they made it one..

and judging by some of the comments here, I don't doubt they'd try.

[Humanist_Activist]

121. A Christian's heaven would be hell for me, such evil that is worshipped by them...

its disgusting.

[hrmjustin]

130. oh you might like this Christians heaven. there is an open Bar!

There is no Hell according to me.

[olddots]

114. I like that the pope said this

Its a step toward tolerance even if it isn't perfect it's an attempt towards progress.

[whathehell]

119. Yep...Too bad so many vitriolic idiots lack your perception. n/t

[Humanist_Activist]

122. Uhm, the Pope didn't change anything, I'm a self-excommunicated Catholic...

an apostate, according to him, I'm going to hell, and I'm fine with that, he and his evil god can go their merry way.

[whathehell]

123. Uhm, that's nice, but I think he did change something, and guess what?..Everything's not about you.

Sorry if that comes as a shock. Just a thought from another self-excommunicated Catholic.

Thanks for sharing.

[Humanist_Activist]

125. I'm sorry that you aren't familiar with Catholic Doctrine, didn't realize you are a proudly...

ignorant, poorly Catechized ex-Catholic.

ON EDIT: You do realize that his statement doesn't apply to you, repent or burn still applies, sorry.

[whathehell]

134. I'm sorry you're not familiar with logic or critical thinking skills..

Neither of us spoke on "doctrine", so it seems you're just pulling things out of your ass.

ON EDIT: I spent twelve years in catholic schools learning Catholic Doctrine.

Feel free to respond when you're sober.

[Humanist_Activist]

137. The Pope reiterates what is already in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and you...

claim he changed something, please tell me what he changed?

[whathehell]

138. That may be true, but how many non-catholics do you imagine are familiar with the Catechism

of the Catholic Church?

What was changed, at very least, was the public perception of Catholicism regarding non-believers.

Have a nice day.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

118. thats nice of him. nice to know that the option is open to me.

[alphafemale]

126. Fuck Candy Mountain!

You're not getting my kidney.

[Tor_Hershman]

135. Put the racks away...for a few years

Oh yeah, when your organization has been in business for 1,600 years who've had LOTS of time to produce/hire excellent Spin Docs and The CEO of Catholic Inc. has some of the world's most efficient.

However, I'd like to return the worthless favor and invite Francis to visit, forever, my
Eternal Kingdom Of The Everlasting & Supernally Aromatic Fart.

Have you viewed my POPE GUY The Pontiff Man video to get your morning Pope Tart?
[link:

|

Stay on groovin' safari,
Tor

[RainDog]

136. LOL! Vatican Issues a "Correction"

http://www.examiner.com/article/vatican-corrects-pope-atheists-are-still-going-to-hell

atheists still going to hell, according to the church...

The Vatican issued an “explanatory note on the meaning of “salvation,” on Thursday, May 23, after media reports circulated indicating that Pope Francis” promised heaven for everyone engaged in good works, including atheists.

In response to the media attention, the Rev. Thomas Rosica, a Vatican spokesman, said that people who know about the Catholic church “cannot be saved” if they “refuse to enter her or remain in her.”

(Translation: Atheists are going to Hell if they don’t accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.)

Rosica also said that Francis had “no intention of provoking a theological debate on the nature of salvation,” during his homily on Wednesday.

[amuse bouche]

140. It's all such silly nonsesne

I can see how it works on children. I was one of them. But grown ass adults?

How can they not question and see the absurdity?

[RainDog]

141. Frank is their p.r. guy

The brand has really taken a hit with the pedophile scandals reaching back to the 1940s with full knowledge of people within power and the continued cover up over all that time.

In Ireland - the church's actions have been the greatest promoter of secularism in the nation.

It's kind of hard for such an institution to claim it's morally dangerous for them to not treat women as second-class citizens in regard to health care when you have spent so much time protecting males who abuse children.

Then there's the part about letting women die rather than provide them with healthcare because of their putrid, fanatical views of females as lower than dirt, in terms of their value in this world. Fuck any religious group with such an ideology. What grotesque excuses for misogyny flow from the minds of these theologians.

Then there's the part about hating liberation theology. Frank gets to put in a word for the poor but the church itself, including Frank, had no use for liberation theology because left wing political movements have been historically associated with overturning the ruling religious structures since the American Revolution.

In this the church is no different than protestant fundamentalism. Nor is it any different than protestant fundamentalism in its views of rights for homosexual citizens. It is also no different than protestant fundamentalism in its views of females as second-class citizens...in the eyes of god.

Since they had to get rid of Ratzinger to avoid having a sitting pope testify in criminal proceedings about knowledge of pedophile enabling, this guy is out there to distract from the continuation of the same right wing tactics and beliefs.

[amuse bouche]

143. Very interesting

Religion is not just annoying, it's criminal

I completely agree and it's why I know longer tolerate but speak out against all the time

[nolabels]

156. Perhaps if someone did not feel the need to be antagonistic

To me it seems there could be thousands of other things to protest or "speak out against" but finding the ears to listen is sometimes is easier if it goes both ways. My favorite place to help people with that human condition we all suffer from, is after observing them for awhile to see if they might be making miscues somehow. If i find it to be true that they are practicing this kind of futility then i will try to offer up perhaps a better way to go (if i know of one). Otherwise it is easier just for me to keep my mouth shut and just learn from THEIR mistakes.

Just like other things we have in our lives, religion might help some and might hurt some but it is getting more obvious as the years pass that it is just another genetic appendage that hangs on, much like a little toe or appendix. It all might have a purpose, but its been found that we can live with out it, if needed

Vermiform appendix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermiform_appendix

[amuse bouche]

158. Perhaps you are spewing gibberish

[nolabels]

159. Thanks

Mostly I write replies and mostly it helps me collect my thoughts about the subject at hand. It didn't matter much for me if you read and or replied to it, but since you have, my answer to you would be hope that you have are also having a wonderful day

[amuse bouche]

160. So you've written more that 11,000 replies

trying to collect your thoughts and not caring if anyone replies

Ya right. The sanctimonious bullshit and dishonesty around here is hilarious

[roamer65]

139. I don't want to go to their idea of heaven.

If ilk like Falwell, Robertson and past popes are there...no thanks.

I just want to be let loose from this earth and travel among the stars. I really would like to see what's out there.

[Locut0s]

144. Huh interesting. It's a step in the right direction...

Kind of strange in some ways that he would put out an opinion on atheists, given that atheists don't believe in heaven or hell to begin with. But it's a step in the direction of tolerances which is a nice change to see. Now let's see if he manages to say something positive about gay rights, or condom usage.

[DeSwiss]

157. I've got a better deal!

FREE! FREE!

Pope Coupon!