This message was self-deleted by its author

[Tuesday Afternoon]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Tuesday Afternoon) on Sun Jun 16, 2013, 08:35 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[WinkyDink]

1. Shocked. SHOCKED. WHO KNEW the Ukrainians were like this?!

"According to some estimates, over 900,000 Jews died in Soviet Ukraine between 1941 and 1944 as a result of the genocidal policies of Nazi Germany and its [Ukrainian henchmen. This figure actually represents the largest number of victims in any country other than Poland...."
http://balticworlds.com/ukraine%E2%80%99s-problematic-relationship-to-the-holocaust/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Later revisionism has the Ukrainians STRICTLY the victims of the Soviets under Communism. Too bad, though, that DURING the war, the Soviets were on the correct side, and the Ukrainians were not.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

2. it was the rule for this forum: that is the headline. I just copied and pasted.

not even sure it meets the criteria for SoP

[WinkyDink]

3. Oh, I realize that.

[Fuddnik]

6. My mother worked alongside John Demjanjuk for years at Ford.

Nobody had a clue.

[Hubert Flottz]

4. Like the feds never knew...

If our government is that inept, it's no wonder the terrorists can slip in.

[muriel_volestrangler]

5. duplicate

of http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014509451

[Tuesday Afternoon]

9. thank you, I will self delete.

[Triana]

7. Well some of them (Nazis) ended up in our own gov't.

Duh. And with fascism creeping up to our necks here again, it makes me wonder if there aren't still quite a few of them still there.

[lhooq]

8. Presumption of innocence

Much as I am inclined to immediately despise Mr. Karkoc, I (and we) need to remember that the accused are presumed innocent until proven guilty. And such proof may be difficult to come by given the many years that have passed. Remember the case of the now deceased John Demjanjuk. "Demjanjuk remains presumed innocent under German law, and his earlier conviction is invalidated", says Wikipedia.

That said, the US government records from 1949 are certainly suggestive --

Though records do not show that Karkoc had a direct hand in war crimes, statements from men in his unit and other documentation confirm the Ukrainian company he commanded massacred civilians, and suggest that Karkoc was at the scene of these atrocities as the company leader. Nazi SS files say he and his unit were also involved in the 1944 Warsaw Uprising, in which the Nazis brutally suppressed a Polish rebellion against German occupation.

(All excerpts are from the AP story cited in the original post.)

So too are Mr. Karkoc's own memoirs --

However, in a Ukrainian-language memoir published in 1995, Karkoc states that he helped found the Ukrainian Self Defense Legion in 1943 in collaboration with the Nazis' feared SS intelligence agency, the SD, to fight on the side of Germany — and served as a company commander in the unit, which received orders directly from the SS, through the end of the war.

He may end up being deported --

Efraim Zuroff, the lead Nazi hunter at the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Jerusalem, said that based on his decades of experience pursuing Nazi war criminals, he expects that the evidence of Karkoc's lies as well as the unit's role in atrocities is strong enough for deportation and war crimes prosecution in Germany or Poland.

My point in this post is not at all to minimize the evil Karkoc is alleged to have committed, but rather to recognize the challenges that the passage of time presents to the processes of judging and justice.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. Shock lingers after Nazi unit leader found in US

Associated Press

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) — The revelation that a former commander of a Nazi SS-led military unit has lived quietly in Minneapolis for the past six decades came as a shock to those who know 94-year-old Michael Karkoc. World War II survivors in both the U.S. and Europe harshly condemned the news and prosecutors in Poland have said they'll investigate.

An Associated Press investigation found that Karkoc served as a top commander in the Ukrainian Self-Defense Legion during World War II. The unit is accused of wartime atrocities, including the burning of villages filled with women and children.

"I know him personally. We talk, laugh. He takes care of his yard and walks with his wife," his next-door neighbor, Gordon Gnasdoskey, said Friday.

"For me, this is a shock. To come to this country and take advantage of its freedoms all of these years, it blows my mind," said Gnasdoskey, the grandson of a Ukrainian immigrant himself.