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[Th1onein]

This message was self-deleted by its author (Th1onein) on Sat Apr 16, 2016, 09:30 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[nebenaube]

1. Those are not cops... those are pigs. Plain and simple. A cop would have been reasonable. n/t

[truth2power]

45. We've got to find a better analogy...

Pigs are sentient creatures, and quite intelligent, actually. Most cops, not so much.


Nothing against you, nebenaube. Just sayin'...

[JimboBillyBubbaBob]

161. Well said.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[warrant46]

175. They are Fascist Criminals

The Schutzstaffel at Dachau had more feelings for those herded into the "Showers"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzstaffel

[exboyfil]

2. My old pastor

could probably kick my butt when he was 95. He was still very active and mobile (made it past 100 before passing away- his decline was sudden). Not saying the shooting was justified just observing some old people are in great shape (my grandpa at 80 with Alzheimers was potentially very dangerous taking two adults to restrain him - he was a very big and powerful man).

[Lugal Zaggesi]

4. And a lot of cops

are short, fat, and out of shape.

I'm surprised they didn't use live ammo on the threatening old guy...
they put 40 bullets in a skinny black teen for holding house keys that look "like a weapon".

[Th1onein]

10. Yay cops! Cops are great!

[cliffordu]

13. Ah, bullshit.

Stop with the apologist mealy mouthed crap.

The old fucker was murdered. GET IT?

Oh, that's right, ya don't.

And my grandpa could beat the shit out of your bogus posit any day of the week.

[heaven05]

41. ???

ya think???

[Jamastiene]

151. You would think a 95 year old in great shape

wouldn't be in a nursing home, though, right? If a 95 year old is in a nursing home, it is usually because they need assistance.

[exboyfil]

152. Alzheimers or other form of dementia

My pastor was not in a nursing home at the time, but my 80 year old grandfather with Alzheimers was still very dangerous. I have seen some Alzheimers patients get violent with the nursing staff. I am not sure where they ended up after that (no longer in my grandmother's nursing home).

The cops should not have tried to subdue him with the bean bag guns or the Taser. I am sorry that my prior response was misunderstood. I am just saying that some 95 year olds are not as frail as people may think (using my former pastor as an example). He was still very mobile when he reached 100 (when he did go decline it was fast).

Could the patient have gotten his hands on a knife in a nursing home - possibly - knives are definitely present but I have not seen one in the dementia ward. I have seen carving knives in the main dining room though.

I have spent a lot of time in a nursing home in the past six years visiting my grandmother. At first she was mixed with the dementia patients. Later they built a wall and moved those patients away from my grandmother's area.

[wordpix]

168. glad you're visiting your grandmother regularly, kudos

My mother with Alzheimer's is never visited by her grandkids, even those who live in the same city. And she was a wonderful grandmother to them. But they are just too "busy." For you:

[blackspade]

3. All cops seem to be lunatics these days

If some or most aren't, they it is incumbent on them the start doing actual policing, starting with their own ranks.
Otherwise they are part of the problem and complicit in the ongoing brutality of the American citizen.

[dbackjon]

98. Yeah, the cop in Vegas that died trying to rescue a lost hiker

Is a fucking lunatic.

[Th1onein]

101. Cue the milk carting cop, someone, QUICK!

[blackspade]

146. You obviously missed the point of my post....

[Nevernose]

163. Know how many Vegas cops have been murdered

In the line of duty? Since the advent of the modern bulletproof best in 1988 or 1989, one Vegas cop has been shot and killed. One fell down last week, and another one was hit by a car. The cops in Vegas have killed more people by speeding needlessly (I.e. when not on a call) or drunk driving than they've taken losses in the line of duty by somewhere near a factor of ten.

[orbitalman]

5. Being in an adjoining suburb I can tell you many of these cops...

are out of control. They let their thoughts lose control, become paranoid as their adrenalin pumps. Plus they brag that they've had military police training. They are dangerous.

[nolabear]

6. Why did they have to "do" anything? He wasn't holding hostages, right?

I'll never understand why in a situation where, say, grandpa kind of goes off and grabs a knife and he doesn't have it at anyone's throat, they don't just say "Okay, when you feel like talking we'll be right out here." Even if he was delusional he couldn't have accomplished anything worse than they did.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

51. We can expect that they'll make up some story that they thought that he would hurt himself.

[nolabear]

71. Well, killing him certainly solved that problem.

[RobinA]

93. I Work

in mental health, and this having to DO something in an emergent situation is pervasive. To me it demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of what is going on. I mean, tazing Grandpa? Talk about a lack of situational awareness...

[undergroundpanther]

136. cops out here

Last time I told the on call dr.at the program I go to that I felt depressed, The cops Cuffed me when I told them not to,due to spine and neck injuries and pain,they had 4 patrol cars parked outside my house, 2 of them led me to the car.I could not sit in the car due to the excruciating pain of having my arms cuffed in back,I laid in the back cried in pain all the way to the ER,got put on the cardiac unit, during my wait for a psych bed, On the cardiac unit the people there were so kind they blew my mind,I was there as they monitored my heart,Than I got sent to a horrible authoritarian psych unit,where two or more security guards always sat in the dayroom in uniforms,triggering to say the least.Needless to say I did not trust anyone there because they acted like control freaks.I left after 2 days.I could not stand the bully staff or the mileu.They triggered me bad. I never ever will go to that hospital again.I will never trust the on call shrink.This is the 2nd time I have been frogmarched for depression. I am not violent,and made no threats either time.Cops are fucking assholes to people with psych issues,sadly too many hospitals treat PTSD patients like shit too. I would have been better off staying on the cardiac unit the staff there were so very kind,there.Er's tend to treat psych patients like dirt,and assume we are all addicts,so of course despite my neuropathy causing me pain from being cuffed I was not offered anything to stop pain,but they made sure they took my clothes tried to even strip off my boxers,they treated me like a criminal until I was on the cardiac unit.I was not told why I was sent to the cardiac unit either.That whole incident was terrible and I will not go through that again for asking for help. But that's what happens when everybody is more scared of litigation more than scared of being without compassion. I have had enough shit in my life but the shit never stops.Gotta find a place to live,republicans have shredded the social safety net so nothing so far, is available. I hate this society,I don't belong here,this country sucks.My life sucks and I don't know how to fix it myself,if I could I would have done it years ago.Ironically my psych issues are from what OTHER PEOPLE did to me for years.PTSD is not caused by brain chemistry or anything else ,but bad people & accidents & bad incidents,trauma in a bad cold callous world.

[kath]

7. Fucking fucking fucking fucking PIGS.

I am so utterly sick of this shit.

[olddots]

8. this is a case we hear about

think about it ............ how many cases don't we hear about ?

[Th1onein]

9. I know. It's frightening.

[burnodo]

11. New police motto: "To Protect And Serve Ourselves"

[atreides1]

32. Police are not required to protect citizens

In 2005 the SCOTUS ruled that the police are not Constitutionally bound to protect citizens!

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=2&


But they can shoot, tase, beanbag, and beat them...but are not required to protect them!

[DallasNE]

12. How Would A 95 Year Old Man In A Nursing Home

Have access to a 12 inch butcher knife? That makes no sense because those things aren't lying around for just anybody to grab and use. Do they have security cameras on the premise? I frankly doubt the police report on the butcher knife. It wouldn't be the first time a police report was written up after the fact to cover butt's. And since this doesn't pass the smell test I suspect this is just what happened here.

[avaistheone1]

15. Yeah but he had a shoe horn.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

52. If seems to be one of those after-the-fact knives. A drop knife. It is inconsistent with the

report that the 95-year old had a cane (apparently in one hand) and initially used a two-foot shoe horn to menace one or more persons in the nursing home.

I can believe the two-foot shoe-horn part, and maybe he felt threated by a member of the staff or someone else.

The shoe-horn part makes it unlikely that he intended to menace anyone with a knife.

Just as some cops have been known to plant "drop guns" to justify shooting unarmed civilians, I think that it is more likely than not that it was a "drop knife."

[MADem]

75. A 12 inch drop knife? A butcher knife? From a guy who lived in an apartment at an elderly

assisted living facility? That looks like something that comes out of someone's kitchen?

The cops just happen to have that kind of thing in their vehicle trunk? "Quick Charlie--go get the "drop knife!" No, not the switchblade--the Julia Child 12 inch butcher knife....no, no, not the deboner, the bigger one! Yeah....that's the ticket!"

And of course, the staff that initiated the commitment order to send this guy to the mental hospital, and the ambulance crew that came to pick him up, and who tried and failed to subdue the guy, are all "in on it?"

[L0oniX]

55. Terrorists are everywhere. n/t

[Tom Ripley]

172. +1000??????

I wondered the same

[howicit]

185. Hard to believe

I to find it hard to believe the man had a butcher knife. I work in a nursing home and yes they have silverware but no access to butcher knives. We are suppose to inventory their personals when they move in , so how is this possible?? I believe the actions taken were not necessary.

[defacto7]

14. There is no 95 year old man alive that I wouldn't

just walk up to and take the stupid stuff away and help him sit down and rest. Then I'd probably have a nice talk with him and have him laughing in 5 minutes. Actually, I have done this before more than once. One time it was with a 70 year old lady with a gun. It's no big deal.

Humanity and civility is devolving really fast, faster than I could have ever imagined.

[Kennah]

18. There are a tiny handful of martial arts masters in their 90s, but this was not one of those cases.

[defacto7]

22. Yeah, and they could be pretty good at it

but I would take my chances to keep life and peace.

[Katashi_itto]

34. My native Japanese Kendo Master is 72 years old and can mop the floor with anyone in our Dojo

But he's an exception to the rule

[defacto7]

65. Oh I'm sure.

But I would take the chance before killing the guy with weapons.

[Katashi_itto]

70. ???

[defacto7]

86. Whoa! question mark is right!

That was a stupid way for me to put it.

I meant.... I would take a chance on removing the weapons from the old man before I would worry about him being able to subdue me. I would say it's a one in a thousand that he would hurt me enough to matter. It's more likely there would be a peaceable way to end it without having to kill the old man. I would take that chance and I have more than once.

I suppose I am saying that people these days are less likely to take chances than we used to be, and I could get into a long rant about why I think that but not now.

[Katashi_itto]

87. Oh ok, I was totally at a loss what you were talking about

On a side note Kendo really doesn't have anything like subduing.

Unless your into clubbing someone with bamboo sword. Call Kendo the sportier version of Iaido.

Iaido is using a a real katana to draw, kill and sheath your sword in one smooth flow.

But thanks for the explanation

[defacto7]

88. Well then, I wouldn't find any usefulness in Kendo myself.

May I be slain in the act of saving a life! An honorable death.

[Katashi_itto]

90. heheh :)

This is a good example. One excellent thing is Kendo promotes speed. Combined with other martial arts, that tends to make a difference.

[defacto7]

103. pretty amazing!

[Katashi_itto]

121. Its one of the fastest martial arts.

[Bonobo]

186. My 9 year old son does kendo.

His sensei, a policeman, and well into his 70's is a 8-dan (8th level) kendo master and a really tough, tough, tough guy.

[Katashi_itto]

190. Good lord 8th Dan? Is he in Japan or outside?

Outside of Japan there are only three 8th level Dan I think. Your son is extremely lucky!

my own direct Sensei is 4th Dan and has been practicing 25 years. I will be extastic to make that or 5th in my life.

[Bonobo]

191. We live in Japan nt

[Katashi_itto]

192. Nice!

[Kennah]

145. I think you're safe

I can recall ever hearing about one martial arts master committing either murder or manslaughter.

Master Hui Son Choe

He actually wrote two well regarded books about Hap Ki Do, before he killed a man with a samurai sword in 2000.

Pled guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to 9 years. Might actually be out of prison by now.

[Th1onein]

120. And he's TWENTY THREE YEARS younger than this man was.

That's almost a quarter of a century. No comparison.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

154. Verne Gagne, the former wrestling champion....

....killed his roommate in a Minnesota nursing home just a few years ago when he was in his early 80's. Put him in a chokehold and snapped the guy's neck.

[MADem]

25. The staff at his assisted living facility had called an ambulance to involuntarily commit him.

I don't think you would have managed a nice chat with the poor man.

I think they have some training with senior dementia and other issues, and this was beyond their ken.

[midnight]

37. It doesn't appear there was much training, because if their was, I would think it would of involved

an injection to keep this resident calm.... Sounds like the whole bunch could use some retraining...

[MADem]

69. We don't know if that happened and it had no effect.

The ambulance crew might not have wanted to get near a guy with a big shiny knife, and I can't say I blame them, particularly. Would you wade in with a hypodermic in that situation?

We don't have enough detail to "condemn" anyone here--not the staff (who apparently were competent enough to know the procedures for involuntary commitment, which aren't all that simple), not the ambulance crew, who were unable to calm this guy down by whatever means they used, and not the police, who would have been justified shooting the guy.

What we don't know exceeds what we know. There's no doubt it is a tragic situation, but it's not like the cops just ambled up and machine gunned this guy for shits and giggles. They went out of their way to keep their guns holstered, even though the guy had a knife.

I don't like excessive force when it comes to police, but I don't see it here. They were the third line of defense in this scenario.

[midnight]

137. Our population is aging and needs qualified people who won't ramp up a situation into this

type of negative outcomes....

[heaven05]

42. so

you're saying it was okay to kill this man because of the threat he posed? Right???

[MADem]

72. So...you're saying it was okay to let a crazy, violent man run around an elderly apartment

complex in an enraged, unruly and dangerous state, threatening people with his 12 inch knife?

I'm waiting to hear how you'd handle this, since you know more than the staff of the facility--who probably have seen this kind of thing before, and you know more than the ambulance crew--who have done this sort of thing previously, too.

[defacto7]

67. Maybe, maybe not.

That's a reasonable conjecture but conjecture none the less.

[MADem]

73. I don't think they took the decision to make that 911 call lightly.

I think they did what they had to do to protect the rest of the facility's residents.

It's not like this guy was in an isolated environment. I provided a link to the facility--it housed a ton of people; it was an assisted living apartment complex (with individual kitchens, which presumably offered opportunities for people to own things like kitchen and butcher knives) for the elderly, with varying levels of care. If you can cook for yourself, that's what you do. If you're too frail or lazy, you can go to the dining hall. It's like a luxury college dorm environment for old people, not a "nursing home" that resembles a Dickensian hospital.

[vaberella]

16. I can't say it enough; I fuckin' hate cops. n/t

[dbackjon]

100. Please let your local PD know that you won't ever need their assistance

[vaberella]

162. Will do! Considering I live in Harlem and I'm Black. It's pretty much a given. n/t

[tofuandbeer]

17. Nothing has changed. The U.S. has always been this way. What a sad situation. :(

[Kennah]

19. It's almost as though people in authority positions can sense the end is near, and they're scared.

[NBachers]

20. Hope these poor cops aren't so traumatized they need an 8 month paid vacation & permanent disability

[orleans]

21. how absolutely tragic. n/t

[laserhaas]

23. Killing War Heroes who called accidentally hit 911, Shooting wheel chair guys armed with pencil

and now this stuff.

There must be some sort of Blue Wall of Silence prize pool going on for who can be the most lame brain murderous arsehole in the country.

(Uh Oh - did you just here the sawed off shot gun click/load - in the back ground)?

[MADem]

24. He was mentally ill; being 'involuntarily committed.'

The place where he was living was one of those "assisted living" centers, where seniors have their own apartments. http://www.pathwaysl.com/community/victory-centre-park-forest The staff noticed that he was being aggressive so they called his family and initiated procedures, including calling an ambulance to transport him in order to involuntarily commit him--that's where the problems began.

Pity the ambulance crew couldn't have subdued him:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-john-warna-victory-centre-park-forest-20130727,0,1534668.story

....According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. to help a private ambulance company with a "combative" resident of the home there. The Victory Centre of Park Forest, a supportive living community for adults 65 and older according to its website, is at that address.

The resident of the faculty was being "involuntarily" committed for medical treatment by staff at the Victory Centre, the release said.

When police arrived, the man was threatening staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a 2-foot metal shoehorn, the release said. Police demanded that he drop the cane and shoehorn, but he did not comply and then picked up a "12-inch butcher type kitchen knife."

Police continued to command the man to surrender and follow their orders and eventually used a Taser on him. That failed to subdue him and he continued to threaten others, the release said. Police then fired bean bag rounds at the man to get him to drop the knife and surrender. He did so and was taken into custody.

The man was conscious and talking to officers and staff before being transported to a local hospital by the paramedics. He was later taken from St. James Hospital and Health Centers in Chicago Heights to Advocate Christ Medical Center in Oak Lawn, where he died about 2:30 a.m., according to authorities....

Television coverage: http://wgntv.com/2013/07/27/95-year-old-man-dies-after-being-tazed-taken-down-by-police/#idc-container

[blackspade]

35. And your point is what?

These cops killed a 95 year old with excessive force that was totally unnecessary.
They were the last people that should have been called.

[MADem]

68. My point is what I posted. Since you're acting like you know more than anyone here, how's about

YOU tell us how you would have managed the situation. Be specific, now!

YOU clearly know more than the staff of that place, that initiated emergency procedures to INVOLUNTARY COMMIT this guy to a MENTAL HOSPITAL because they couldn't handle him anymore.

YOU clearly know more than the ambulance crew, that has experience in subduing violent patients to be transported to involuntary commitment in a mental hospital. The ambulance crew called the police--are you saying they had no right to do that? Surely they knew the police weren't coming with cookies and milk--the police were coming to do what THEY were unable to do--subdue a violent individual with a knife.

And YOU clearly know more than the police, who -- if they really wanted to use some of that git-er-done "excessive force"--would have just pulled out a gun and shot the guy with a cheap, simple bullet, and been justified in so doing because he was waving a butcher knife he'd taken out of his apartment kitchen.


So....I'm waiting for YOUR solution, which apparently, none of those "idiots" on the staff of this assisted living facility could come up with, and none of those "morons" on the ambulance crew could come up with, either.

And those "stupid" police--maybe they should have just kneecapped the guy with a bullet, hmmmm? Or sang him a song? Thrown a net over him, like in the cartoons?

I doubt this was the first time the staff of that facility had problems with this guy. They don't commit people unless they are a danger to themselves and others. And ambulance crews aren't without experience with combative patients either.

I'm waiting to hear your grand plan--maybe we can send it to that elderly housing facility, and to that ambulance crew, so they can do it YOUR way in future, because they must be pretty doggone thick if they had to call the cops, n'est pas?

[tom_kelly]

74. Come on, now.

This man was 95 years old and I don't care if he lived on his own, walked the stairs, even lifted weights. He was 95 years old, was someones father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.

[MADem]

76. And the ambulance crew couldn't subdue him.

Come on, now. INDEED.

The AMBULANCE CREW couldn't subdue him. Ambulance crews have EXPERIENCE with combative patients, and they could NOT handle this guy.

Let's back it up even further.

The staff went to the hassle of obtaining a COMMITMENT ORDER for this guy.

Again, the staff obtained a COMMITMENT ORDER to a MENTAL HOSPITAL for this guy.

They don't do that for people who are "sweet little old people." They do it for people who are combative and violent and are a danger to themselves and those around them.

I have relatives in their 90s who are impressively vigorous. One still works. We don't know if that is the case with this guy, but we don't know otherwise. He was vigorous enough to wave a knife around.

Again, if the police wanted to be assholes, they would have plugged him with a bullet. They used every nonlethal tool at their disposal. They kept the guns holstered.

What would you have done? Keep in mind, the facility staff can't handle this guy (and they do it every day), the ambulance staff couldn't handle this guy (and THEY do it every day, too), and they called the police--it's not like the cops showed up uninvited.

[RobinA]

94. For Starters

I would not try to SUBDUE him. I work in a psychiatric hospital, and no good will EVER come of ordering around and trying to subdue people who aren't in their right mind. Not that people who should know better won't continue to try.

[MADem]

113. My brother used to do that work, and it is certainly difficult. He sometimes came home

scratched and bruised.

That said, would you "not try to subdue him" if he were waving a knife near another resident or residents of the facility? Would you just leave him to slash and trash anyone who wasn't you?

Would you ignore a psych patient who was a danger to others in your hospital?

I love the way everyone thinks that the police just went out there to kill an old guy...but they were so incompetent that they exhausted their non-lethal arsenal instead of just using a cheap old bullet!

[RobinA]

134. I could Have

worded that better. I would not try to forcefully subdue him. It doesn't work. Get everyone out of the way and give him the space to calm down. You have to consider the abilities of the person. This man was 95, not an NFL linebacker.

[blackspade]

99. Angry MADem is Angry.

I addressed your points down thread.

To summarize, the elderly, especially those who are mentally declining are generally fearful of those that they know and terrified of those that they don't.
A bunch of assholes brandishing weapons is the absolute last thing that needs to be injected into the situation.
As for your uninformed post, I'll let it testify for itself.

Thanks.

[MADem]

107. Well, that's just not a helpful subject line, and as for "uninformed posts"

I think we're in a "smelt it/dealt it" situation right about now.

As for "injecting assholes into the situation," you need to take that up with the ambulance crew--they didn't call the girl scouts, they called the police.

"Thanks" back atcha.

[blackspade]

147. LOL!

Hey, we don't agree, but your response really did make me laugh.

I've covered my point, so I'll leave you with yours.

[heaven05]

43. so

you are saying it was okay to kill him!!! Being the 'threat' he was.

[MADem]

64. If the police wanted to "kill him!!!!" a bullet would have been more efficient.

They went out of their way to use non-lethal force on the guy. No guns.

This is a terrible situation, but both the assisted living staff AND a crew of ambulance workers who were there to SUBDUE the guy and take him to the MENTAL HOSPITAL were unable to manage the guy.

None of that comes out in the initial report.

So indeed--maybe there is more here than meets the eye.

Tell us what YOU would have done--keep in mind that the staff of the place called for him to be involuntarily committed, they couldn't manage him, and the ambulance crew that came to get him couldn't handle him either.

So what's your "magic" solution? Let him--being the "threat" he was-- roam around the elderly housing complex with a large knife from his apartment kitchen?

[heaven05]

66. beautiful on "out their way". So a 95 year old ran everyones patience out,

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013, 03:21 PM - Edit history (1)

So a 95 year old ran every ones patience out, got on every ones last nerve, and became a threat? Right? Hey you're entitled to view the situation as you must, to stay in your comfort zone. The man is dead as a result of trauma induced by 'authorities'. Period. No excuses. I do know, I would not have hurt him, while not allowing him to hurt himself or others. His reaction time at 95 was diminished. I know there were younger, stronger, evidently not smarter people on scene who could have with patience restrained him. He was killed because of total incompetence by the 'authorities'. Period. So, yeah....

[MADem]

80. And you "know" this, how? That he ran "their" patience out?

Were you there? Why didn't you jump in with all your "expertise" then?

The guy became a threat because he was behaving violently and had armed himself with a knife. That's why the ambulance crew called the police. He was endangering himself and others.

Do you seriously think that these staffs will commit someone if they aren't causing PROFOUND amounts of trouble? They lose BUSINESS if they do that. If the guy isn't housed in their facility, they can't collect money for caring for him.

For someone to be committed, they have to be creating some serious chaos that affects the rest of the residents negatively. A doddering old oddball, a guy with curious but benign habits, people suffering from a bit of manageable dementia, those people aren't going to be tossed in a mental institution in an involuntary commitment situation. When that happens, and when they get an emergency order to commit someone, the person is raising hell, he's combative, he's dangerous, and he's VIOLENT.

More will come out on this, I'm sure, but it's not about "the authorities." They didn't ask to be put in this situation, and they could have justifiably shot the guy point-blank...but they didn't.

And all the in the world won't change those facts.

[heaven05]

82. like

I said. You must rationalize to stay in some kind of comfort zone. This old fella should have died a natural death. You probably would have done the same thing as these morons handling this situation since you're so keen on trying to excuse their reaction. Be my guest. I'm done done with you. on edit: by the way, you were not there either.

[MADem]

84. I think the one doing the rationalizing here isn't me.

You are saying that you know more than the staff at a facility that routinely cares for elderly people with all their issues.

You are saying that you know more than an ambulance crew that routinely subdues combative patients.

I most certainly wasn't there, but I'm not the one questioning the decision of the staff to institutionalize this guy, and I'm also not questioning the decision by the ambulance crew to call in the police because they felt that the man was a danger to himself and others. These people--the ones you are calling "morons" without even knowing them-- have some expertise in their fields--you haven't shown me that you possess any expertise in doing anything save opining on the net.

And I'm also not the one, in kneejerk fashion (perhaps to stay in YOUR comfort zone?), blaming the police for using non-lethal methods available to them, when they could have used a single bullet and "gotten away with it" owing to the ROE.

YOU are, though.

And of course you're "done." There isn't more to say, really.

[heaven05]

85. Okay

I'll bite. I did not question him being institutionalized. I'm not questioning the police being called to the situation. I am not going to apologize for their incompetence either. Yes I would have been 'comfortable' with them using less than a taser on the old fellow. Or the bean bags. I've dealt with your rationalizations before and I feel you would have done the same as these morons. You are no better than these incompetent killers, in my book. Period. Just don't get a job restraining 95 year olds. Just compassion for the old fella being killed by incompetent morons. No knee jerk. I leave that to people like you. And by the way, if they had shot him, he would have ended up the same way he is NOW. You do not make any sense. Right, this is all the explanation I owe a heartless person like you. I hope you make it to 95. on edit: I missed that gem, I DON'T OWE YOU AN EXPLANATION on any expertise I might have on anything. Who do think you are that I have to give you an explanation of my experience. I don't owe someone as heartless as you anything or any explanation about my life, experience or compassion. geez you're a real winner.

[MADem]

110. Well, that was quite the rant. Your kindness and compassion are noted!

You're so kind and thoughtful that you'd tell a geezer like me

You are no better than these incompetent killers, in my book.

But of course...you are?

So, do you have the same degree of scorn for the people who obtained the commitment order, and the people who called the police? Or are you just going to satisfy yourself by lashing out at me?

You don't have to reply--I've stopped caring what you think, you see.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

26. Could be owing to "Toxic Masculinity"

http://www.policymic.com/articles/54105/the-one-thing-all-men-feel-but-never-admit

[Snake Plissken]

30. I'm going to have to disagree with this, if those cops weren't such Nancy boys,

instead of tasering him, the 95 year old man would still be alive right now.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

83. They were being "dicks", which is part of the description of "toxic masculinity".

Why insult the gay community by proclaiming "Nancy Boys", which isn't the politically correct term for what might be created via fathers trying to make their sons tough SOB's. I think many cops join the force in order to be dicks. And it is most definitely a job for those who want to lord over others.

This is hopefully an extreme case which isn't indicative of the police in general.

[MADem]

114. Do we know that the police were male? nt

[SleeplessinSoCal]

122. If you're debating the premise that many boys are raised to be dickish,

it would follow that women may follow the same path. Possibly this is how Bill O'Reilly and others became dicks. It would be heartening to learn that they were raised to be the way they are and that they just didn't become dicks over night.

[MADem]

125. No. I'm not debating "dickish," I'm responding to "Toxic Masculinity."

I'm also trying to raise the consciousness of any sexists who still think, quite automatically, that police officer=man and nurse=woman.

They're here, even on this "progressive" board. It would be interesting to see if any positions were modulated if they discovered that the policeman was a policewoman, and/or the ambulance crew was female.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

142. Possibly you're not aware of this documentary that at it's heart is "toxic masculinity"

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/jensiebelnewsom/the-mask-you-live-in

[MADem]

143. I was aware of it, thanks to your link in your previous post.

It sounds like a wonderful project.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

148. You are welcome. And thank you for . . . .

[MADem]

149. I had one just like that for almost 22 years.

Travelled the world with that good buddy--had the personality of a puppy dog!

[Snake Plissken]

27. I think I'd rather be stabbed by a 95 year old man trying to disarm him, than use a taser on him

but that's just me

[snort]

48. That's what I was thinking.

At some point your job may require some risk, Sorry. There is always a shortage of bartenders.

[Ash_F]

92. Seriously what is the point of all that fancy SWAT armor police forces get? /nt

[warrant46]

176. Well Obviuosly they don't trust it very much

[Nanjing to Seoul]

28. Okay, cue the badge sniffers telling us it's only a select few bad apples

after all, a nearly 100 year old man is as agile and strong as an 18 year old. Give me a fucking break!

[napoleon_in_rags]

29. This is a big thing to me.

Okay, police. Get our your notepads, and write this down:

Nursing home staff, residential care staff, do NOT have the power to restrain, either physically or chemically, people in their care in any way. So if you get called, its because a situation has arisen where people have become a danger to themselves or others, and the staff can't do anything. This does not mean they are a real threat to other people. But you are given the power by law to restrain them, for their own protection.

So put down the mace, the tasers, the guns, and gently restrain the people, and take them to the psyche ward at the local hospital where they can get meds to calm them down. Period. Don't beat them, don't treat them like a danger. They're usually not strong, just restrain them and take them to the hospital. Its not that hard.

[bcbink]

31. that is the answer

time and space. Saves lives

[KittyWampus]

36. #1. as said upthread, this is assisted living NOT A NURSING HOME. #2. I know someone who does

security in a local hospital. The stories told are hair raising.

People freaking out can't be "gently restrained".

I wasn't at this situation and have no idea what really transpired. But DU'ers who have these ridiculous ideas like psychotic people should be "gently retrained" need to get a clue.

[heaven05]

44. police

Last edited Sun Jul 28, 2013, 01:46 PM - Edit history (4)

worship. Disgusting. A psychotic 95 year old can be restrained without killing them. Period. Nothing ridiculous about honoring 95 years of life on this fucked planet by very vicious and poor misunderstood police officers who will not preserve a 95 year old life with a little respect!!! These apologies for these wicked, wicked 'peace' officers is disgusting! oh and by the way, you don't have one.

[dbackjon]

102. Police hatred - fUCKING DISGUSTING

You don't have a clue about life, do you?

[heaven05]

108. evidently

more than you. You stay in lockstep, you may become a big person in the 'Party' one day. Who knows you might just end running it/them/us.geez When you grow and can take off those rose colored glasses, come out from behind your white picket fence and see the real world, get back with me, I might answer. But I doubt it.

[heaven05]

115. right

Mom! This person is talking about you. Have a good life. actually on edit, not all police are bad. I do have good ones in my town. Friendly, respectful even when ticketing. Yet there is a LOT of police abuse out there against the citizenry. I've seen it, you know it's there. Just a fact. Sorry shouldn't have been so snarky. It really is a touchy subject with me having been through 50 years of police behavior. Mom died on fathers day, 96 years of age, I'm upstairs now. thank you.

[blackspade]

49. And your anecdote is about a hospital not an assisted living facility.

Having been a caregiver for an elderly relative with dementia and another elderly grandparent the common thread is fear.
The elderly, especially those with diminished mental capacity are easily frightened and often can react in extreme ways.
It takes patience and restraint to get them under control.

The fact that cops showed up waving weapons and assaulting this 95 year old probably confused and scared the shit out of him.
No wonder he was brandishing what few 'weapons' he had.
These cops killed the man because they either didn't have the training or restraint to be there in the first place.
This was unjustified and stupid and these cops should be in jail for manslaughter at the very least.

[heaven05]

50. +1000

[cstanleytech]

60. Speaking as someone trying their best to cope with caring

for an elderly mother who has severe copd and can go from being nice to being nasty as hell and strong as an ox at fighting both myself and the nurses in the ER the times we have had to have her taken in I can attest that patience doesnt always work out the best.
I'm not making a judgment for or against this specific incident just saying that the elderly can be just as deadly as anyone else *if* they have a weapon.
I do question how a cane and a shoe horn turned into a 12 inch butcher knife though.

[MADem]

119. He dropped those, and picked up the knife, per the reports.

I suspect (but do not know) that this confrontation took place in his apartment.

If they are characteristic of the usual cookie cutter type elderly assisted living facilities I've seen, he was either in a studio (living/bedroom and kitchenette) or one bedroom (living room, dining room and kitchen are all one room--like a cheap apartment). Either way, he wouldn't have to go far at all to be "in" his kitchen with access to utensils.

They're doing an autopsy, so 'cause of death' (his death was not contemporaneous with this incident) will be determined soon enough: http://wgntv.com/2013/07/28/95-year-old-man-dies-after-being-tazed-taken-down-by-police/

[cstanleytech]

124. Ah, that clears it up a bit then. Thanks.

[wordpix]

61. +1000, my mom with Alzheimer's used to think people were out to do her/me in

She sometimes thought I was the "bad man" for no reason but usually she thought it was someone else who wasn't even present. She hallucinated badly and started grabbing knives, which I quickly learned had to be put away where she couldn't find them. Restraining is not a good idea but gentle talking and redirecting ("do you want some juice and cookies?&quot usually works to bring the person to some level of reality and calmness. Of course, anyone with a weapon who's hallucinating can do some harm to himself/others but cops should be properly trained to deal with people with dementia, esp. the elderly.

My mother still tries to hit people and pull their hair when they're doing things like helping her in the bathroom but if you explain things simply and quietly to her, she will let you do what needs to be done.

[cstanleytech]

91. You have my sympathy and a

[wordpix]

167. thanks so much

We had a beautiful day today and mom went out of her facility with me for 2 hrs. with very little yelling.

[RobinA]

95. Thank You

this is exactly why you can't approach these people with orders and attempts to subdue. It just escalates things.

[MADem]

116. You don't have the story straight, I'm afraid.

The police did not "show up waving weapons."

The place where he lived got a commitment order for him. They don't do this kind of thing for no reason.

He was about to be carted off to a mental hospital.

An AMBULANCE crew showed up--not cops--medics--to take him to the hospital. He went nuts ...on THEM.

The ambulance crew then called the cops, because the guy started fighting with them.

Police were called to the 100 block of Main Street in Park Forest at 8:42 p.m. Friday when the man became combative with a private ambulance company attempting to involuntarily transport him for medical treatment, Park Forest police said.

The cops arrived, and didn't use any lethal weapons. They used a taser and beanbags. They did not use bullets.

The man, identified as John Warna by the Cook County Medical Examiner’s office, was allegedly threatening facility staff and paramedics with a metal cane and a two-foot metal shoehorn when officers arrived.

When ordered to drop the items, the senior citizen refused and instead grabbed a 12-inch butcher knife, police said.

The officers attempted to Taser Warna to no avail, police said. He finally dropped the knife when he was pelted with the bean bag rounds, police said.

http://libreprensa.es/k/_/1715163#s/1442755

He was admitted to a hospital after the tasing/beanbags. He died early the following morning.

Sincerely,

"Accurate" (but not at all angry) MADem.

[DLevine]

132. Lethal force was indeed used against this poor man.

He died as a result of the beanbags, according to the medical examiner. The cops should be ashamed of how they handled the situation.

[MADem]

138. I know they were doing an autopsy to determine cause of death.

Has it been released so soon? Do you have a link?

[DLevine]

156. Sorry, just saw your reply this a.m.

I see you read post 129, as I did, which links to the autopsy report. It really is a tragedy. I hope something is done to train cops how to de-escalate these types of situations.

[blackspade]

150. So No waving, just shooting.

Thanks for correcting me.

I believe that I already explained about elderly with emotional and mental problems.
If I know this kind of stuff, then these 'professionals' either the ambulance crew or police should have known it too or they shouldn't have been there.

And as far as them not using 'lethal' weapons, are you freakin' kidding me?
Tasers kill. They are much more likely to kill a 95 year old.
And bean bags, at point blank range? Again, against a 95 year old?
Those things break bones in younger adults. A 95 year old is going to suffer major trauma.

They killed this guy when it could have been avoided.

[Peace Patriot]

62. Why didn't they just sit down and wait him out?

Your point is valid. Personal experience here in the nursing home field, dealing with dementia every day. Dementia patients can do great harm--to other residents, to staff and to themselves--and the options in dealing with that potential harm are very limited by VERY GOOD LAWS that protect the elderly from abuse (for instance, abusive restraint). There are a whole lot of issues here, too, about our health care system--inadequate staffing for one, poor doctor care for another, inadequate facilities for various kinds of elder health care, inadequate training for extremely overworked and underpaid staff, society's disregard for the elderly, society's "warehousing" of the elderly, and more.

All of this added up to out-of-control dementia patient whom the staff could not deal with. This shouldn't have happened. There are many ways to prevent it from happening, with adequate staffing, good medical care and compassionate social care--but it did happen. So, what should the police do?

Why couldn't they have cordoned him off and sat down in lawn chairs to wait him out? Maybe offered him a beer after a while. Well, no... but you get the idea. (Lemonade?) He was probably dehydrated. He may have been incontinent. And, for sure, after a while, he was going to get hungry or just collapse with fatigue and go to sleep.

WHY do police have to act like the S.W.A.T. teams they see on TV, or like Navy Seals, or whatever violent model gets stamped onto their brains? THEY acted demented, in this case, just like the elderly resident. Their actions were not only criminal, they were stupid beyond belief. They pump each other up to be hit men and there is no restraining them--no one to apply COMMON SENSE to the situation. His brain was damaged. Theirs, presumably, were not. Why in God's name couldn't they WAIT?

And where, in God's name, has cleverness gone to, in our police state culture? A sneak attack, say, from behind the demented 95 year old, with a syringe? The offer of a tray of food and drink? Pillows? A bed? A teddy bear? A chair? A TV? And what about SOUND? Don't the police realize that commands are USELESS on demented patients and often TRIGGER rage? You don't command a demented person--you entice, your inveigle, you bribe, you speak softly, you above all DIVERT. They CANNOT understand their situation. That brain wiring is GONE. They are very like two year olds, for whom the word "No" is a provocation--and they sometimes suffer something that is almost exactly like a "terrible two's" temper tantrum. They REALLY cannot understand why they mustn't put their finger into an electrical outlet. The only thing they know is that they MUST RESIST the "no." It is imperative to their being. With two year old's, this is a necessary step to establishing their identity. With 95 year olds suffering demential, it is a reversion to that primitive immaturity. That's all they've got left--the power to defy commands.

I was just thinking, why not use a clown? Or a strolling musician? Dementia patients are very distractable except when you confront them directly with your will vs. their resistance. (Then they can be as stubborn as a two year old.) That is ALL our "police state"-trained police seem to know: their will against "perp" resistance. Where is cleverness? Where is creativity? Where is common sense? Where is compassion? Where is patience? All gone, it seems, at times like this. Though we shouldn't judge all cops on one incident, there are certainly enough incidents in recent times, of outrageously unnecessary police violence and death, to call the entire police culture into question. What the hell is wrong with them--and with our health care system, and with our society--that a 95 year old dementia patient could be tasered and bean-bagged to death?

[MADem]

118. Why didn't the ambulance crew do that? They called the police, and they

have experience restraining combative patients.

Maybe the situation involved danger to others, as well as himself...? This wasn't a single family home, it was "apartment style" assisted living...those are generally rather close quarters, often with inside halls and doors--more like a college dorm with hand rails than an actual apartment.

[steely]

89. you're the one who is "clueless"

Hospital security issues when dealing with the general public as compared to an assisted living facility (which is very similar to that of a nursing home) are quite different.

Please quit making general pronouncements regarding situations with which you obviously have zero experience.

Ignoring any apparent experiential background, step back first and ask yourself if tasing a 95 year old man is the best way to go, then ask yourself if that is the type of facility you'd place your mom or dad.

And then when you have regularly visited or worked at one of these places, feel free to open your mouth - but just to shove food into it.

There is a reason I haven't posted here for years, and you are one of them.
You are correct about one thing, you "have no idea".
If it was your dad in this situation, you'd be boring us with a different tune.

[napoleon_in_rags]

127. "people freaking out can't be gently restrained" so you agreed with the taser use that killed her?

Yes they can be gently restrained many people have training to do this, in settings like psyche wards.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

54. They are going to come up with a story that they thought that he was a danger to himself.

Incidentally, the first reports indicated that the knife had a 7" blade. Then, apparently to make it more scary, the stories were changed to make it a 12" butcher knife.

[Th1onein]

123. Yeah, this change in story happens often, it seems.....

Remember when they murdered the retired marine who accidentally turned over in his sleep and pressed his Medic Alert button? The first story the cops tried to sell was that he had an axe.

Liars and murderers.

[MADem]

144. The ambulance drivers thought he was a danger--that's why they called for the police.

FWIW, a knife with a 7 inch blade usually has a five inch handle, which would make it a 12 inch knife in total length.

[MADem]

117. How would you have gotten the knife away from that guy?

How do you "gently restrain" someone armed with a 12 inch knife?

The ambulance crew--not the staff at the facility--called the cops.

Ambulance crews do have experience with combative patients.

They were unable to handle this one.

[napoleon_in_rags]

128. If I were on a police crew?

There's a bunch of de-escalation techniques I would have used first. My rant is because I know for a fact, there is a gap between staff and police when it comes to dealing with situations like this. Police should get more training dealing with mentally ill.

[MADem]

130. Aren't ambulance crews trained thusly?

I have a paramedic/fireman in-law; he knows all that "working with combative patients" stuff.

Between the facility staff and the police were the ambulance crew--they were the ones who called the police, if the reports are accurate.

[The Wizard]

33. No one said you had

to have common sense to wear a badge and carry a gun.
We worship uniforms, and as such, the officers will be seen as acting within the guide lines in the police manual. Any threat will be met by what the officer(s) deem reasonable at the time.
Hell, they could have got the old guy to chase them around for ten seconds and that would have stopped him in his tracks. But they have weapons and like to use them.

[sorefeet]

38. They are not cops

they are cowards. Spineless, punk assed, cowards. The cowards are protected by law, we are not.

[madrchsod]

39. there were many protocols that were violated during this confrontation

my wife works in similar situations. there is no way this man should have died.

to say the least the nursing home and the police dept will be paying through the nose.

[heaven05]

40. you're kidding

95 years old, and could not be restrained without taser? Man human beings are really getting crazy and downright evil. I am beginning to think maybe the holy book is right. This is just pitiful. Cops?

[earthbone]

46. I worked in a nursing home..

years ago,you know how we dealt with a problem like this ? Cookies, Chocolate chip freaking cookies !

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

47. You loaded a shotgun with Chocolate Chip Cookies?

Those chocolate chips can kill! (if they're real cold)

I hope you weren't using high-capacity cookie jars!

It sounds like you have a solution for problems at any age!

[tom_kelly]

78. Jerky response Bozo

[Lugal Zaggesi]

53. Look at this closely

Authorities said John Warna was a resident at Victory Centre of Park Forest, on the 100 block of South Main Street in the south suburb. He was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn when police arrived at the complex, they said.

Police said they struck him with a Taser and bean bag rounds after he threatened officers with a 12-inch butcher knife.

The old guy was threatening paramedics and staff with a cane and a metal shoehorn - something he probably had in his bedroom.
Then police arrived at the nursing home.

Magically, the old guy's "weapons" transformed into a 12-inch butcher knife.
How did that happen ?
Did he sprint down to the kitchen, to grab the most lethal possible weapon available to him in a nursing home - because he had to confront multiple cops now, and a "cane and metal shoehorn" weren't menacing enough? Is that what the cops are saying?

Or - more likely - did the cops overreact, taser and bean bag the guy to death, then magically transform the "metal shoehorn" into a "12-inch butcher knife" on their report to cover their asses ?



Metal shoehorn ? Or 12-inch butcher knife ? Only a highly-trained Peace Officer filling out a report on attacking a 95-year old nursing home resident knows for sure.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

58. The size of the knife also magically transformed from one with a 7" blade to a 12' butcher knife.

[MADem]

126. He was in his apartment. His apartment with a kitchen.

People are under the mistaken impression that he lived in a nursing home--it was an assisted living facility doing the "full spectrum" of care. It looks pretty nice in the pictures, but they always do: http://www.pathwaysl.com/community/victory-centre-park-forest

The reports say he dropped the other stuff and picked up the knife, which he dropped when he got beanbagged. I should think the facility staff or the ambulance crew wouldn't be party to a police cover up--that would take too many people to 'silence.'


WGN: http://wgntv.com/2013/07/28/95-year-old-man-dies-after-being-tazed-taken-down-by-police/

[Lugal Zaggesi]

133. "The nursing home says

they have never had a problem with the resident before and their thoughts are with his family."

http://www.kens5.com/news/95-year-old-man-dies-after-being-hit-by-Taser-bean-bags-217313441.html

You seem confused that nursing homes are given euphemisms in marketing materials - are your kids talking about sending you to an "assisted living facility" ?

"According to police, the 95-year old man was armed with a butcher knife" -
my point is, the paramedics and staff ONLY mentioned the cane and metal shoe horn - yet the police are the ones that wrote this report, after they tased/shot/killed the 95-year old - in which he picked up this threatening weapon. I guess the "butcher knife" was the old guy's backup weapon, easily reachable, in case the cane and shoe horn weren't intimidating enough, amirite ?

It's the written report that mentions the butcher knife - do you really think a paramedic is going to come forward because he heard on the news that Chicago cops fudged an after action report, in which a suspect DIED ? Are you kidding me ? Do you know anything about actual police ?

That's like giving 10 cops the finger then speeding away in a stolen car.

Do you have any idea what a 95-year old man looks like?

[MADem]

139. I live next door to a couple in their nineties.

They're much more robust than that man. The wife still works. Not every man in his nineties is frail and hunched. You should go to northern Maine sometime--you'd be stunned at how vigorous the elderly are there--they just don't retire.

For all you know, maybe he is a Charles Eugster: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9891143/Charles-Eugster-Its-pure-vanity.-My-body-was-a-mess.html

The "after action report" would have been written BEFORE the guy died, so why would there be a need for anyone to lie? The man's death was not contemporaneous with the incident, you know. He was conversing when he was taken to hospital. No one would have been "alarmed" or had a need to cover anything up--the situation was resolved using "non lethal force." The guy died many hours later.

You are not, apparently, familiar with assisted living facilities. I am. They are nothing like "nursing homes" which are set out like hospital rooms, often two to a room, and institutional. Assisted Living facilities are homey, they feature apartment living, and they aren't "institutional." They usually encompass a full range of services, from Alzheimer's wings where access is limited, to hospice care, to independent apartment living, to anything in between those things. They have on site conveniences, like hair stylists and people who will give them manicures and pedicures and massages. They have social events, they go on outings. I pick up people at those things all the time, to take them to doctor's appointments and to vote.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

160. The man in the photo

IS an award winning athlete (click the photo to see the second photo):

http://www.casperjournal.com/news/article_8d9ac775-a0cd-5ebb-8a8d-1bb9b251e8e7.html
He has 3 gold medals from the Senior Olympics:

"I’m not that good but I’m by far the oldest person there!”

At 95, Kilmer is still competing in three events at the annual Senior Olympics held every August, even though he has no other competitors in his age group. Instead, he competes in the “younger” age group against men in their 80s.

“There isn’t anybody as old as I am still doing this,” he said. “For some reason or other, I’m still here at 95. Most of the people who’re 95 years old can’t hardly get around at all.

The man you described as "frail and hunched" is a gold-medal winning athlete at 95 years old. One of the elite.

John Warna, the 95 year old police victim, died less than 5 hours after the tasing/blasting:

Police say the 95-year-old was conscious and talking when he was put into an ambulance and driven to a local hospital, but then he had to be transported to another hospital. Within five hours, he was pronounced dead.

When exactly was that police report filed ? 3 AM that night ? Was it back-dated the next morning ?

Lots of soldiers are "conscious and talking" on the battlefield, minutes before they die after being shot. Is "conscious and talking" supposed to be some sort of medical description of vigorous health ?

The Cook County medical examiner's office said that the cause of death of John Warna was hemoperitoneum – bleeding in the stomach area from blunt force trauma of the abdomen after he was shot with a bean bag gun.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-28/news/chi-autopsy-bean-bag-rounds-fired-by-police-killed-park-forest-man-95-20130728_1_park-forest-taser-bean-bag-rounds

Neighbors thoughts are on the police officers, whose actions they say should be fully investigated.
http://www.fox19.com/story/22949614/95-year-old-man-dies-after-police-altercation

It's almost as if the neighbors don't trust the police report ...
It will be investigated, that's for sure.

Here's a testimonial from your "assisted living facility":
http://www.pathwaysl.com/testimonials/kathy-d
I am writing to let you know the outstanding care my mother Mary is receiving at your facility in Park Forest. My mother has done a complete turn-around due to the attention and care of the staff at Victory Centre. In particular, Linda who is the Head of Nursing has really gone over and above what her job is to encourage my mother to eat better.

Doesn't sound like Kathy D's mom is butchering whole chickens in her kitchen with the ubiquitous butcher knives, then slicing/dicing vegetables before whipping up a gourmet dinner. Sounds more like her nurse is encouraging her to finish her pudding.

The cops are lying - I'd like to see Internal Affairs check out what "butcher knives" that nursing home gives their 95 year old residents in their "kitchens".

[MADem]

164. Good for your athelete. The woman I was talking about, who still works,

never had an athletic day in her life, but she can still lift preschoolers, get down on the floor to play with them, and run her snowblower (until I go over and tell her to get inside and if she would be so kind, to make me a hot drink so I can visit with her after I finish the job for her, because I am a good neighbor). Earl Cameron (google him) is 95 or 96, he is still a working actor, and he looks to be in far better shape than your example. A lot of fitness is down to lifestyle, and a lot of fitness is down to the simple luck of genetics. Being an "athlete" when one is young can mean that those body parts are getting worn down quicker--resulting in spinal degeneration and a hunched appearance. Check the link I provided earlier that shows the 93 year old bodybuilder, who started doing the exercises in his late eighties--he looks TWENTY years younger than your athlete fellow. How many really old football players do we see? Not many--they all die early, with brain damage on top of destroyed joints, many of them.

Sometimes, being an "athlete" doesn't mean a thing. Most of the old Mainers I know didn't do any "athletics" after high school--they just went about their work, growing potatoes, running businesses that required a bit of fitness and movement every day, doing their chores around the home, and they just kept doing it.

And again--you are unclear on the concept of "continuum of care." As I said upthread, these facilities run the gamut from "independent apartment living" to "hospice care." You check in, still vigorous, still golfing, swimming, and participating in field trips and events, and you check out a decade or two later, from hospice, in a box. One anecdotal "review" tells me that one customer was satisfied by the care her mother was given at a particular point in mom's life. It does not tell me that ALL residents were at that woman's life stage, nor do ALL residents need that level of care.

Here--from the same website you linked to:

For example, Pathway Senior Living’s award-winning Camp VIVA! offers seniors a complete immersion in nature with the opportunity to go camping for a day or overnight. Campers enjoy hiking, fishing, boating, outdoor crafting and cooking, bonfires and more.

So...you're saying they're all doddering old pudding eaters...but the facility offers hiking, fishing, boating, outdoor crafting and COOKING...?

And more:

Pathway communities offer residents plenty of opportunities for socialization and engagement, life-long learning, exercise and even adventure in the form of camping and horseback riding. Through Pathway’s See Spot Retire program, each community enjoys having its own rescue dog onsite and residents experience the joy and health benefits of pet ownership. As part of the Victory Gardens program, green-thumbed residents help plant and tend to vegetable and flower patches while reaping the physical, psychological and social benefits of gardening. Some seniors find meaning in doing volunteer work as part of our Sharing and Caring program while others prefer the intellectual stimulation of attending one of our lifelong learning courses.

These doddering old pudding eaters are riding HORSES? Gardening? Volunteering in the community?

You can read about the "levels of care" available to residents at this link: http://www.pathwaysl.com/about-us/levels-care

One of the three listed is as follows:

Pathway’s Senior Apartments fall with the senior housing category of Independent Living. Tenants, 62 years old and better, can take advantage of well-designed, full-size, one- and two-bedroom apartments, along with beautifully appointed and functional common areas. Maintenance of the building is included, along with a tenant-run activity program, and at some locations, some utilities may be included as well. Services such as meals, housekeeping and transportation, among others, are available to tenants for an additional fee, helping to keep the monthly costs at a rate more affordable than you might think.

In other words, if you don't want meals delivered to you, you MAKE YOUR OWN.


Your insistence that "the cops are lying" is just your half-baked theory. If cops are as stupid, mean, and obtuse as you paint them, they wouldn't be smart enough to cough up a "faked" story about a knife ... BEFORE the guy even died. And I have to say, I get the sense that you think they feel glee about this, and I see no evidence of that either. They didn't ASK to be called to that facility. The AMBULANCE crew--the ones who were trying to transport this guy to the mental hospital--called them. Now, I would wager that most ambulance crews that routinely do mental hospital transports have a clue as to how to handle combative patients...but they couldn't handle this guy. So THEY made the call.

The bottom line is this--this is a horrible, horrible tragedy. The cops are not murderers, I'll bet the guy with the beanbag shooter feels horrible; nor are the medical professionals at not one, but TWO, hospitals where this guy was transported, who apparently missed the internal bleeding suffered by this fellow before he died. Had they realized that's what was happening, they probably could have saved the guy's life with a fast operation to staunch the source of the bleeding.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

169. Your thinking is muddled

You didn't read the article about the 95 year old Senior Olympics athlete. Mike Kilmer was NOT an "athlete" in his youth:

Kilmer noted that he wasn’t especially athletic in his youth. He began jogging in his 70s and competed in his first Olympics soon afterward.
"Being an "athlete" when one is young can mean that those body parts are getting worn down quicker--resulting in spinal degeneration and a hunched appearance." - thanks for that irrelevant observation - Mike Kilmer started *jogging* - not exactly NFL football - when he was in his 70's.

You apparently have no idea how OLD 95 really is:
“There isn’t anybody as old as I am still doing this,” he said. “For some reason or other, I’m still here at 95. Most of the people who’re 95 years old can’t hardly get around at all. When I first started out, of course, there were quite a few in my age group, but they kind of thinned out as I got older and now there isn’t anybody. I haven’t seen anybody in the Senior Olympics in the last 10 years in my age group.”

http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/boomer-health/articles/2011/11/17/more-americans-living-to-90-us-census-finds
Nonagenarians were 0.6 % of the US population in 2010. Most of them -- 74 percent -- are women, particularly white women who live alone or in nursing homes, according to the report. Most have one or more disabilities. Most (85 percent) of those 90 and older say they have one or more physical limitations. About 66 percent have difficulty walking or climbing stairs. 95 years old is the OLDER half of 90-99.

As for your "horseback riding, hiking residents" - 95 is as much older than 62 as 36 is older than 3. There are not many 36 year olds checked into toddler day care centers. A lot happens in 33 years.

[center][/center]

Now let's talk about John Warna's reason for being so upset in the first place - he was involuntarily being stuffed into an ambulance on Friday night for medical treatment - show me one citation that staff was trying to transport this guy to the mental hospital - you made that up. His "assisted living" Nursing Home had decided he needed to be brought to a hospital for medical treatment, and he refused to go that Friday night - maybe he wanted to watch a baseball game on TV. Yet the staff felt they had the right to force him to go - so much for your "assisted living" assertions - for John Warna, this was a nursing home. "We decide. You obey."

"they wouldn't be smart enough to cough up a "faked" story about a knife ... BEFORE the guy even died."
According to an e-mailed press release from Park Forest police, officers were sent to 101 Main Street in Park Forest about 8:42 p.m. Friday to help a private ambulance company with a “combative” resident of the home there — Warna.

Why was the Police Department emailing out press releases to news organizations on Saturday ? Because local news organizations had gotten hold of the story that a 95 year old was tasered/shotgun-blasted by cops, and died a few hours later.

Here's the first local story:
http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/21566128-522/police-knife-wielding-senior-citizen-dies-after-being-tasered-hit-with-bean-bag-rounds.html
BY ALLISON HORTON Staff Reporter/[e-mail] July 27, 2013 11:57AM

John Warna - tasered/blasted Friday night, died Saturday 2:30 am, reporters on the story that Saturday morning, Park Forest police respond with an emailed "press release" that morning in response to inquiries. Cops know they will look very bad if they killed (and it's been ruled a homicide, by the way) a 95 year old wielding only a cane and a shoe horn. So what's the worst weapon they could claim he grabbed when they ordered him to accept his involuntary ambulance ride ? A "butcher" knife. So that's what they claim.

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/21604323-522/death-of-man-95-tasered-by-police-is-ruled-a-homicide.html
The Illinois State Police Public Integrity Unit is reviewing the shooting incident.
Uh-oh - they will want witnesses to this alleged "butcher knife" attack. They will ask if Mr. Warna was cutting up whole chickens and vegetables in his "assisted living" nursing home room, or if he was a pudding-in-the-cafeteria guy. They will investigate why a taser that can stop NFL players didn't at least slow down the 95 year old Mr. Warna. The cops are going to have to pull in some favors, put out some threats... Too bad "Police Public Integrity Units" don't have a good reputation for going after police abuse, I'd love to see a real investigation of what happened, with photos.

[center][/center]

I find it very suspicious that the man who desperately didn't want to be stuffed in an ambulance Friday night was fighting off staff and ambulance drivers with a cane and a shoehorn, but when the cops arrived. And tasered him - but to "no effect" they claimed (what, the old guy has a faulty nervous system?). And shotgunned him. It turned out that all along, he merely had to "drop the shoehorn and grab a 12-inch butcher knife". What ? There was a butcher knife within reach that whole time he struggled with staff and burly ambulance drivers, but he forgot to grab it ? Come on.

I bet the back-dated police report will show that only the police were in the room when the "butcher knife" was pulled, because the staff and ambulance drivers had retreated to a safe distance out in the hall, away from the Fists of Fury 95-year-old. There will be no witnesses of the alleged "butcher knife" incident, but the cops will magically find such a knife in a large living complex, and say "yup, that's the knife. Nothing we could do. Had to shotgun him with lead from 8 feet, nothing else we could do. The old black guy was just a fighting machine - the Taser didn't even slow him down." I would also bet the original report was lost, and a nice, neat new one was filed Saturday afternoon, after contacting all the news organizations.

[MADem]

170. Your anecdote is NOT evidence, and my thinking is not "muddled," thank you very much.

Let me address your principal gripe--that the guy wasn't being committed to a mental hospital.

Yes, he was--all reports say that the staff of the assisted living facility consulted with his family and got an INVOLUNTARY COMMITMENT ORDER for him. Here:

http://www.wtsp.com/news/national/article/327473/81/Man-95-dies-after-being-shot-with-beanbags

and here: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-28/news/chi-autopsy-bean-bag-rounds-fired-by-police-killed-park-forest-man-95-20130728_1_park-forest-taser-bean-bag-rounds

Competent people have the absolute right to refuse ordinary medical treatment. A staff of an assisted living facility can't force the guy to go get a wart removed or take antibiotics or even get chemotherapy. They CAN, though, "involuntary commit" a person when they are displaying signs of mental incompetence (which can happen as a consequence of stroke, for example), or, if the person is senile or has other cognitive issues, they can obtain authorization from a family member holding court-ordered power of attorney over the individual owing to their incompetence. Something on those lines is what was happening in this case, even if you do not choose to believe it. Either a court order was obtained after consultation with a family member, or a family member already holding a court-ordered power of attorney authorized transport of this gentleman.

The staff did get authorization from the family to proceed with the commitment, too.

A written statement issued by Emily Powell, executive director of the center, said Warna displayed “unusually aggressive behavior” about 6:30 p.m., so they called his family and paramedics to transfer him to a hospital for further care.

http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/news/21604323-418/death-of-man-95-tasered-by-police-is-ruled-a-homicide.html

He was being transported BECAUSE he was exhibiting "unusually aggressive behavior"--not because he needed a mole examined or a chest cold treated.

The police arrived at nearly quarter to nine PM, and they called the family after he started getting aggressive at six thirty PM, so we aren't talking about just a few moments of pique, here. This went on for a couple of HOURS.

For information on how Illinois handles these matters, read this: http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=209&Itemid=144

The Illinois law will allow for the placement in treatment of anyone who, because of the nature of his or her illness, is unable to understand his or her need for treatment and who, if not treated, is at risk of suffering or continuing to suffer mental deterioration or emotional deterioration, or both, to the point that the person is at risk of engaging in dangerous conduct.

The Illinois law also expands the definition of “dangerous conduct” to include threatening behavior or conduct that places another individual in reasonable expectation of being harmed, or a person's inability to provide, without the assistance of family or outside help, for his or her basic physical needs so as to guard himself or herself from serious harm.

As for your 95 year old athlete, he looks like he has spinal degeneration, no matter when he started his fitness regime. Have a look at the pictures of the fellow at the link I provided, as counterpoint--he looks, as I said, twenty years younger at least. Genetics do play a role.

I've given you examples of hale and hearty people in their nineties, you keep going back to "your guy" because he backs up your thesis. Bottom line--"your guy" wasn't involved in this tragedy. He's one guy--he's not Earnest Borgnine, who was vigorous up until he experienced renal failure at 95, nor is he this guy, another "elderly athlete" who is also 95: http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-stories/a-95-year-old-record-setters-rules-to-run-by or this woman: http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/running-strong-sprinter-america-ida-keeling-12961984

And you can be "suspicious" and "bet" all you want, but you just don't know. I just think that people who believe that a policeman who INTENDED to kill a guy would go to the trouble to use "non lethal" (and I put that in quotes for obvious reasons, as the end result of use was homicide) means rather than using a cheap chunk of lead to just take the guy out, have a bias. I know the police aren't saints in many situations, but they didn't come off the street after hearing a disturbance in this case. They were called by the ambulance crew--the ambulance crew that has EXPERIENCE in transporting combative patients. The ambulance crew that COULD NOT HANDLE this guy, who had been displaying "unusually aggressive behavior" for an excess of two hours.

It would be nice if the police had a way to immobilize people carrying weapons without zapping them or beating on them with beanbag bullets. Of course, if they come up with something like that, people will object to that as well and fear misuse.

As for your "back dated reports" it's harder to do that now, with computerization. It's not unreasonable to assume that a report was filed by computer from the cruiser, after the man was subdued and transported. See, he didn't die on the scene, so your assumption that the police "back dated" stuff is just not logical. After he was transported, the police were probably breathing a MASSIVE sigh of relief and patting themselves on the back, PLEASED that they didn't have to use a bullet and kill the guy; when they were finished with the guy, they had talked to him, and he'd been sent off to the hospital. He went to one hospital, and then another, and he died in the wee hours of the following morning. Had the hospitals he was transported to done a more thorough examination of the man and realized he had internal bleeding, they very likely could have saved him.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

179. LOL

I've been waiting to see if John Wrana's family would retain a lawyer to investigate the ridiculous police story, and sure enough:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803,0,6512125.column?page=1
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803,0,6512125.column?page=2

Just a few weeks shy of his 96th birthday, in need of a walker to move about, cops coming through the door of his retirement home with a Taser and a shotgun.

The old man, described by a family member as "wobbly" on his feet, had refused medical attention. The paramedics were called. They brought in the Park Forest police.

First they tased him, but that didn't work. So they fired a shotgun, hitting him in the stomach with a bean-bag round. Wrana was struck with such force that he bled to death internally, according to the Cook County medical examiner.

Wrana's family wants answers. The Illinois State Police are investigating the horrific incident but won't comment, and neither will the Park Forest police pending the outcome of the inquiry.

I wasn't at the scene, and maybe the police have a good explanation. But common sense tells me that cops don't need a Taser or a shotgun to subdue a 95-year-old man.

And after doing some digging, I found there are two versions of events: The police version, and a new picture that raises questions of whether John Wrana was killed unnecessarily.

But lawyer Grapsas says that Wrana's family never saw a knife in his room and that staff also told him Wrana didn't have such a knife.

"So where did the knife come from?" Grapsas asked.

The police statement leaves the impression that the staff was under threat, leaving police with no choice other than to shoot him.

But according to Maria Oliva, an executive with Pathway Senior Living, the staff was kept out of the room after police arrived. So there was no imminent threat to staff.

"The staff was not inside once the police were on the scene," Oliva told us. "At different times the staff were in there, but not when they were called. They (the police) were in charge at that point."

Police said there had been threats made against the staff. But Grapsas said he was told that staff begged to be allowed to try to calm down the old man.

"If there were threats to the staff, why did the staff want to intervene and say, 'Let us handle this; we'll get him calmed down'?" he asked.

Grapsas says he was told that police used a riot shield to come through the door before shooting bean-bag rounds at the old man as he sat in his chair.

Riot shields are used to push back mobs of angry young protesters in the streets, or against dangerous convicts in prison cells, not to subdue an old, old man in a chair.

"At some point, I'm told there were between five and seven police officers, they went back to the room with a riot shield in hand, entered the door and shot him with a shotgun that contained bean-bag rounds," Grapsas said.

Sharon Mangerson, 74, doesn't see her stepfather as dangerous.

Will the family ever get an explanation?

"I want answers," she said. "I want someone held accountable."

Once you get a LAWYER to pushback against the contrived police version of events, an "axe" becomes a "meat cleaver" which is then found to be a "butter knife" - that was only used to prevent police from illegally breaking down his door - see my comment about 68 year old Mr. Chamberlain:

tased, lead-shot-bean-bag blasted, then shot and killed by police because your LifeAid medical alert pendant went off by accident at 4:00 am in the morning:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=554991

I posted that story yesterday on another thread - THAT guy (killed by cops last year) had family, who got a lawyer... he was also tased, shotgun blasted, but being only 68, they needed one real bullet too, to kill him. Again, their victim was a "threat" because "he had an axe - no, a meat cleaver - ok, a large butter knife".

I look forward to finding out what REALLY happened.

[MADem]

181. I have no idea what you're LOLing about.

If they did engage in misconduct, then there's nothing funny about that.

That said, there's still no proof that they did anything of the sort. If he was "just sitting there," why did the ambulance crew call the police? The police did not show up uninvited, and without reason. SOMEONE called them. The staff said the resident was acting in an unusually aggressive manner for over two hours before the police arrived.

I look forward to finding out what REALLY happened, too--but at no point will I be childishly "LOLing" about the death of a person.

You really need to check yourself.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

187. You need to read more closely

I've been saying all along that the cops were making up a story to Cover Their Ass ("he dropped the shoehorn and picked up a 12 inch butcher knife and threatened multiple 30-year old cops&quot .

I didn't know if the poor 95 year-old victim had a family that could hire a lawyer to pushback against the "cover story" that cops always make up when they use excessive force ("everyone has a knife, or a meat cleaver, or an axe - just say he attacked us with that&quot - but yes, now I find that indeed there's a chance for justice, a chance that the "claims" of police have to be proven.

And people like you that automatically believe the "official version" of events and defend the police abuse will get a nice "reality check" - which you will probably dismiss as "a few bad apples" if yet another case of oblivious over-use of force has caused a totally unnecessary death. Amirite ?

Guess who I'm laughing at - it's not John Wrana.

"John Wrana used a walker, and was pretty wobbly on his feet. He was a few weeks from his 96th birthday."

And what were you arguing a few days ago?

They were called by the ambulance crew--the ambulance crew that has EXPERIENCE in transporting combative patients. The ambulance crew that COULD NOT HANDLE this guy, who had been displaying "unusually aggressive behavior" for an excess of two hours.

Now we'll find out what that "medical treatment" was that John Wrana didn't want to submit to on a Friday night. That made him so mad he waved his cane and shoehorn at staff, and the ambulance crew sent to take him. It was his refusal to be carted off in an ambulance that set him off. Poor old guy, World War II vet, in his room with a walker, resting in his chair after yelling at the ambulance crew to leave him the hell alone - and in burst 7 cops with riot gear, blasting with shotguns. Causing the internal bleeding that left him dead a few short hours later.

Look at this video with John Kass, columnist for the Chicago Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ct-met-kass-0802-20130803,0,6512125.column

"The attorney for the gentleman that was killed, a 95 year-old man killed in a nursing home..."
Go watch it - everything you've been arguing is being shot down.
The attorney says there WAS no knife.
Cops are going to have to come up with some perjury to support their claims. The nursing home staff never saw a knife in his room - the cops were in the room alone with Mr. Wrana as they were "threatened".

LOL

[MADem]

193. No I don't.

Nice try at a backtrack, but I'm not buying it.

"LOL."

[Lugal Zaggesi]

195. If you want to understand what you're reading...

...you need to read more closely.

I left that implied - not explicit.
Of course, there is no legal "need" for any American citizen to read carefully and be informed.



Some Americans are quite content with being ignorant, gullible and confused.

[MADem]

196. No, I do not--and flashing pictures of right wing hate mongers is a helluva way for you to make your

little points.

Says more about you than you realize.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

197. He's an American that is quite content with being ignorant, gullible and confused.

I figured we could at least agree about that.
The fact that you are still arguing says more about you than you realize.

Now go read the new thread on the police killing of John Wrana:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3400248

Argue with them.

[MADem]

198. No. I'm done with you. Go hang out with your ignorant, confused and gullible friend if you'd like.

[loli phabay]

184. was staying out of this one, but i was involved in a temporary detention order for a 92

Year old last week, old boy had bad dementia and had been transported to the er after breaking another residents wrist and biting a nurse. At the er he swung one of those metal things that tbey hang ivs on and gashed an orderly on the head before being restrained. I transported him one hundred and forty miles to a secure facility, he was in shackles the whole way and still kicked out the door window before i had to secure his leg shackle to the botyom of the door. Now i wasnt at this situation but not all old boys are frail or helpless.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

188. True

but I bet the element of surprise is what allows a 92 year-old to do most of his damage.

Against five to seven alert, uniformed and geared policemen (don't they still have batons ?),
most almost-96 year olds that are wobbly on their feet and need walkers don't have much chance.

Now, I won't say ALL "almost-96 year olds that are wobbly on their feet and need walkers", because there might be one in Mongolia that used to be a world-champion Kendo killing-machine... but this guy wasn't him.

By the way, even a kindergartner can do some damage if he catches the teacher by surprise with a pen to the eye - yet shotguns with bean-bag rounds aren't common in American kindergarten classes. Yet.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. Cowards. What can be more cowardly than shooting a 95-year old with beanbags?

[L0oniX]

57. The Long Ranger has better tactics. Lasso the dude to restrain him.

How about police issue human nets? Throw a net over someone who is going wild.

[cstanleytech]

59. How did a cane and metal shoehorn suddenly change into a 12 inch butcher knife?

[PatrynXX]

63. Think they missed the episode from Longmire

guy with gun gets distracted by female but this guy has knife. woulda been better to shoot a net at him and wait.

Magnet would have worked if he had a pacemaker

[glinda]

79. Study should be done on exactly how and who are being hired as cops these days. Bet ya can trace it

to very conservative top officials.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

81. Agreed. It is a leadership problem. A leadership problem where they view the populace as the enemy

Why else are they militarizing their police?

Why else are they training their cops to be SWAT-team wannabes?

[glinda]

165. I agree. It is top down and who/what they are connected to.

[UglyGreed]

96. Sad to say many police officers

received their training in Iraq and Afghanistan. We love them as soldiers but hate them as cops, kind of hypocritical isn't it?

[Brigid]

194. But we're talking about two vastly different skill sets here.

Soldiers close with and destroy an enemy. Police officers serve and protect. Confuse the two, and you get tragedies like this.

[UglyGreed]

199. I totally agree

Sorry if I did not make that clear.

[dbackjon]

97. I hope the police ignore any calls for help you make

What the fuck is wrong with DU these days?


Jesus fucking Christ.

[Th1onein]

105. Personally, I make it a rule NOT to call the killers.

Who wants to invite a murderer(s) into their home?

[dbackjon]

106. Disgusting. Americans put their lives on the line daily to protect us all

And some idiot thinks they know exactly what happens, everywhere.

[Th1onein]

109. HEY! I bet you got that picture of the milk carting cop, doncha?

[riverwalker]

129. Medical examiner report

The Cook County medical examiner’s office said that the cause of death of John Warna was hemoperitoneum – bleeding in the stomach area from blunt force trauma of the abdomen after he was shot with a bean bag gun.

Read more: http://wgntv.com/2013/07/28/autopsy-bean-bag-rounds-fired-by-police-killed-park-forest-man-95/#ixzz2aOZCVdX0

[DLevine]

131. I hope the cops are proud of their handiwork.

The man was 95 years old. If you can't figure out a way to restrain a 95 year old dementia patient without killing him, maybe you're in the wrong line of work.

[Lugal Zaggesi]

135. That's totally surprising

I would think most 95 year old men would hardly blink from being shot at point blank range with a 12 gauge shotgun - heck, they were only "bean bag rounds" - but the police won't say how many rounds.
Plus, that was after tasing, so your abdomen muscles should be all contracted and tough. Huh.

He must have some sort of anatomical defect - like those black kids that don't respond to police choke-holds like normal humans.

Good thing for the cops that the almost-centenarian dropped his shoe-horn and grabbed a really scary sounding "butchers knife" - which only the police saw/mentioned, in their report AFTER they tased/blasted/killed the old guy -
otherwise the police would appear like a bunch of idiotic, trigger-happy clueless buffoons, over-reacting and killing some 95 year-old who refused a private, for-profit ambulance company’s demand that he surrender himself, involuntarily, to some type of medical treatment center.

Good thing.

[MADem]

140. He probably could have been saved.

It doesn't sound like the hospital realized the problem. Does anyone know if he was operated on, or did they miss the internal bleeding?

[heaven05]

158. oh

questions about THE blunt force trauma against a 95 year old.? Now it's the hospitals fault? "did they miss the internal bleeding"? "he probably could have been saved" geez, you're a piece of work. I wonder what this gentleman's race was. If he was black, then I could picture why he was assaulted like this, with the fear prevalent of angry black 95 year old men. If he wasn't then their patience just ran out and they killed him.

[MADem]

171. You, again. Another invective-laden post directed at me.

Like this pointless, accusatory exchange: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023363881#post75

And I see you thought better of your vicious post 66 remark to me that declared:

You are no better than these incompetent killers, in my book.

Was that shame that made you edit, or fear of an alert on your remarks?


I think you need to check yourself. Seriously.

Now I'm "a piece of work" because I don't agree with yet another one of your hostile, accusatory rants.

Two hospitals failed to diagnose internal bleeding over a nearly six hour period.

I'd say that's a problem.

And since you choose to focus on race, you might want to get the answers to these questions, too. What was the race of the police? What was the gender of the police? What was the race of the ambulance crew that called the police? What was the race of the family member that authorized the commitment? What was the race of the staff that notified the family and called for the ambulance?

You assume, as you so often do, "facts" not in evidence.

If I had to guess the guy's race, though, I'd figure he was white and Polish--his last name, Warna, is German-Polish (often anglicized as Warner), so that is a clue there, and this assisted living facility caters to Poles (their website is in English, Polish and Spanish).

That said, I don't think that anyone, of any race or ethnicity, "deserves" to die, even though you termed me "no better than those incompetent killers" -- I think this was a tragic accident, and I think a lot of people feel pretty awful about it.

I also think you spend far too much time chasing me around this discussion board to give me a piece of your mind and a serving of emoticons. You might want to consider how you spend your time, because that doesn't seem like a good use of it to me at all.

[heaven05]

177. okay

[briankdinnj16]

141. There are no words to describe how awful this is

Rest in Peace, Mr. Warna. He's just the latest victim of the horrible, corrupt police force in this country. Hope those damn pigs face justice, but I doubt it.

[Jamastiene]

153. Didn't police tase a 5 year old a year or two ago too?

is up with the overkill? Are some of these cops not able to use common sense? What are they so afraid of?

[AnotherMcIntosh]

155. Maybe. At a minimum, there was a 6-year old:

"The first incident involved a six-year old boy who was Tasered at his elementary school. He had broken a picture and was threatening to cut his leg with the glass. Police defended the decision saying they were happy to talk about use of the Taser rather than talking about injuries the child could have done to himself. The boy's mother told CNN: "If there's three officers, it's nothing to tell a 6-year-old holding a glass, if you feel threatened, 'Hey, here's a piece of candy, hey, here's a toy. Let the glass go."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/15/taser_kids_zapped/

[AnotherMcIntosh]

166. Yes: 720 ILCS 5/

[RBInMaine]

159. Here we go again with the anti-cop nonsense from the peanut gallery.

People weren't there, didn't know all the circumstances, etc.

First, it is true that 95 year olds generally don't pose nearly the threat of younger people. At the same time, even with a very elderly person, an attempt to disarm the person wielding a butcher knife could result in a serious injury to the police or to the hospital staff or to the person himself.

Say they had tried to disarm the person swinging the butcher knife, and a serious cut had resulted to ANYONE, then they would have been in hot water for THAT. I don't know if they had to tazer and beanbag, but their protocol may have called for that. Pepper spray may have been better if they could not talk him down.

These can be tough calls, and with protocols sometimes the cops have diminished options. We don't know all the ins and outs and all the circumstances. But to say crazy things like "cops are lunatics" and "cops are all pigs" and such is just plain ridiculous.

[Th1onein]

182. FFS! I've got one thing to say to that: HE WAS NINETY FIVE YEARS OLD!

NINETY FIVE.

Leave him be. Give him ten minutes, he'll doze off.

There is no excuse for what these PIGS did to this old man.

[steve2470]

173. my take on this fwiw

I have no idea what transpired besides what's in the media story, just like the rest of us.

If the old man was truly an imminent danger to other residents, the staff, the ambulance crew or even the cops, then and only then, I think the cops were justified in what they did. As MADem has pointed out, they could have just shot the guy, which would have been totally uncalled for from what I'm reading so far.

If the old man was not an imminent threat to other residents et al., then they should have backed off, let one officer deal with him and allow him time to calm down, orient himself better and put away/give away the knife. One time I had a psychotic patient brandish a metal fire extinguisher in my direction. It was pretty damn scary, because he could have hurt me and the other staff in the area. We gave him space and he eventually calmed down and put down the fire extinguisher.

From what I know, the police in general are not well trained to deal with combative psychotic patients. They go in with overwhelming force, which is fine when it's called for. This guy was 95, and yes, he might have been pretty healthy and strong for his age. Maybe the old guy was a danger to others, so they had to do this. I don't know. We'll get more information eventually.

[Th1onein]

174. "We'll get more information eventually." NO, WE WON'T.

Bullshit. We won't "get more information," because this story will quietly die, the cops will do, at most, administrative leave (ie., PAID VACATION), and no one will seek justice for this old man except, maybe his family. But they won't get it, because cops ARE THE LAW. And that's how they think of themselves, too. Not that they enforce the law, but that they ARE the law.

[Kingofalldems]

178. Did the cops high five each other?

[Nevernose]

180. Lets say he WAS armed with a knife

He was 95. They could have just locked the door. He would have tuckered himself out in ten more minutes.

[Sunlei]

183. another of those new, for profit not-a real 'nursing home" with no proper trained staff.

It's hell to be old in the usa.



http://www.pathwaysl.com/

edit to add link

[tXr]

189. It's hell to be old in the USA...

It's hell to be old in the usa.

FTFY.